The Delphi Murders: Richard Allen on Trial: Jury Selection: Day Two

[00:00:00] [SPEAKER_00]: Content Warning, this episode contains discussion of the murder of two girls as well as sensitive topics like sexual assault.

[00:00:08] [SPEAKER_00]: So today was the second and presumably final day of jury selection.

[00:00:14] [SPEAKER_00]: We have a jury in the Delphi Murders case, actually a jury of 12 and then four alternates, and some questions.

[00:00:22] [SPEAKER_00]: And we're going to be getting into all of that in this episode.

[00:00:26] [SPEAKER_00]: My name is Anya Kane. I'm a journalist.

[00:00:33] [SPEAKER_02]: And I'm Kevin Greenlee. I'm an attorney.

[00:00:36] [SPEAKER_00]: And this is The Murder Sheet.

[00:00:38] [SPEAKER_02]: We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews and deep dives into murder cases.

[00:00:45] [SPEAKER_02]: We're The Murder Sheet.

[00:00:47] [SPEAKER_00]: And this is The Delphi Murders. Richard Allen on Trial. Jury Selection. Day Two.

[00:00:53] [SPEAKER_02]: I'd like to start by mentioning something that I will circle back to and address again towards the end of the program.

[00:01:48] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, actually, before I start, before I start, we were supposed to mention something yesterday that we forgot to mention,

[00:01:54] [SPEAKER_02]: which is that Anya and I are writing a book on the Delphi Murders case.

[00:01:58] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, we kind of forgot to mention that. Whoops.

[00:02:00] [SPEAKER_00]: So we are going to be coming out with a book.

[00:02:03] [SPEAKER_00]: And, you know, in case you're wondering, no, it is it is not finished at this point because the story is not over.

[00:02:09] [SPEAKER_00]: We want we one of the things that was really important to us when when working on this was that we would get an opportunity to tell the entire story, including the story of trial.

[00:02:17] [SPEAKER_00]: So this won't be released until the summer of 2025.

[00:02:22] [SPEAKER_00]: And it's a long way off, but we're really honored to be doing this.

[00:02:26] [SPEAKER_00]: And we just want you to know that we take it incredibly seriously.

[00:02:28] [SPEAKER_00]: We want this book to be inclusive of a lot of different viewpoints and really get to a lot of, you know, questions in the case and sort of the human story of this tragedy.

[00:02:40] [SPEAKER_02]: And if you're so inclined, go to Amazon, look up my name or Anya's name and preorder the book.

[00:02:46] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, we'll include links. And I'm sure there'll be other places in addition to Amazon that you can preorder it.

[00:02:50] [SPEAKER_00]: But preorders support us a lot and we really appreciate it.

[00:02:53] [SPEAKER_00]: And we just appreciate all the positive feedback we've gotten on the fact that we're writing a book so far.

[00:02:59] [SPEAKER_00]: And just thank you. And again, we're we're honored and we take this very seriously.

[00:03:03] [SPEAKER_02]: So with that said, I want to get back to what I was saying a minute ago.

[00:03:06] [SPEAKER_02]: I want to start with something that I will talk more about towards the end of the program.

[00:03:10] [SPEAKER_02]: I also suspect I will be saying quite a bit more of it in coming days and weeks, which is I.

[00:03:16] [SPEAKER_02]: I feel that Judge Gull has done a fine job of safeguarding Richard Allen's rights.

[00:03:24] [SPEAKER_02]: I think, you know, maybe you can nitpick and say, well, I wish she would make some rulings quicker.

[00:03:29] [SPEAKER_02]: I wish the rulings would be more detailed.

[00:03:32] [SPEAKER_02]: And maybe you might disagree with a ruling or two.

[00:03:35] [SPEAKER_02]: But she's done a good job of protecting his rights in this process.

[00:03:40] [SPEAKER_02]: But other than that, I feel there is a real competence problem with Judge Gull and her team in Allen County.

[00:03:50] [SPEAKER_02]: And I'm mentioning this at the top because this is something else we forgot to mention yesterday.

[00:03:55] [SPEAKER_02]: And it happened again today, which is a number of prospective jurors prior to the court session were out and about.

[00:04:04] [SPEAKER_02]: I think some of them were actually in line with members of the public.

[00:04:08] [SPEAKER_02]: Some of them wandered into the courtroom and were talking to, you know, members of the public.

[00:04:15] [SPEAKER_00]: Not about the case.

[00:04:17] [SPEAKER_02]: Just I don't know what they were talking about.

[00:04:18] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, I mean, I'm assuming it was when I saw somebody, it was more of like, where am I supposed to go?

[00:04:23] [SPEAKER_02]: But at the very least, this should have been organized in a way that this wouldn't happen.

[00:04:30] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't understand why there weren't bailiffs posted out all the entrances anticipating this and guiding people where they needed to go.

[00:04:37] [SPEAKER_00]: It's possible that these people all just made a mistake and they were giving clear instructions on where to go and they just made a mistake.

[00:04:42] [SPEAKER_00]: But I think you have to account for human error.

[00:04:44] [SPEAKER_00]: And there were enough people wandering around that it seemed like a lot of people made that mistake.

[00:04:48] [SPEAKER_00]: And so, yes, it didn't really seem well organized in that sense.

[00:04:54] [SPEAKER_02]: Yes.

[00:04:55] [SPEAKER_02]: With that said, oh, I want to mention Richard Allen came into the courtroom today, I think a little bit before nine.

[00:05:03] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:05:04] [SPEAKER_00]: He was unshackled swiftly.

[00:05:07] [SPEAKER_00]: He was wearing a mint green button down shirt and glasses that sat atop his head.

[00:05:11] [SPEAKER_00]: I never saw him actually use those glasses.

[00:05:13] [SPEAKER_02]: He never used the glasses.

[00:05:14] [SPEAKER_02]: So all day, these glasses were like on his forehead slash head.

[00:05:18] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm sure you've seen people.

[00:05:20] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I know what you mean.

[00:05:22] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:05:22] [SPEAKER_00]: It's hard to describe this.

[00:05:24] [SPEAKER_02]: And then there was an odd moment with him where for an extended time, he looked as if he was in prayer.

[00:05:34] [SPEAKER_02]: Obviously, I don't know if he was praying, but he had his head bowed and his hands folded together.

[00:05:42] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:05:42] [SPEAKER_00]: What did you make of that?

[00:05:44] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know.

[00:05:45] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't want to get into someone's head, but what did you make of it?

[00:05:50] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know.

[00:05:51] [SPEAKER_00]: I guess it depends on what you're looking at.

[00:05:53] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, you know, unclear if praying or just resting in a strange way, but certainly something that seemed to mimic the gesture, I suppose, the gestures commonly associated with prayer in Christianity, right?

[00:06:08] [SPEAKER_00]: Like, that's what prayer looks like to people who are Christians.

[00:06:11] [SPEAKER_00]: And so that's, it was as if he was in prayer.

[00:06:15] [SPEAKER_02]: Yes.

[00:06:17] [SPEAKER_02]: A couple of members of Libby's family were present today.

[00:06:20] [SPEAKER_00]: That's correct.

[00:06:20] [SPEAKER_00]: There were also members of Abby's family present.

[00:06:23] [SPEAKER_00]: So you had members of both families present today.

[00:06:26] [SPEAKER_00]: And seated in the back.

[00:06:29] [SPEAKER_00]: So, you know, actually, weirdly enough, in this situation, usually the families are in front.

[00:06:33] [SPEAKER_00]: And in this situation, the public slash media and then the media were up in the front.

[00:06:40] [SPEAKER_00]: So I doubt the people in the back could even hear anything.

[00:06:42] [SPEAKER_00]: So that was kind of it.

[00:06:44] [SPEAKER_00]: These are very bad acoustics in this courtroom.

[00:06:46] [SPEAKER_00]: Okay.

[00:06:46] [SPEAKER_00]: It's a beautiful courtroom, but terrible acoustics.

[00:06:49] [SPEAKER_00]: Like you can't hear anything half the time.

[00:06:51] [SPEAKER_02]: Maybe this goes back to that competence issue I was mentioning.

[00:06:55] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, in fairness, it's an old building with a skylight.

[00:06:58] [SPEAKER_00]: So I think that they're working against, you know, tradition there.

[00:07:03] [SPEAKER_02]: And then there was some news early on.

[00:07:06] [SPEAKER_02]: Three of the jurors who were picked yesterday were excused.

[00:07:13] [SPEAKER_02]: And so that means we then had to go back and find replacements.

[00:07:18] [SPEAKER_00]: That left a little bit.

[00:07:19] [SPEAKER_00]: So we went down to 11, right?

[00:07:21] [SPEAKER_00]: So we didn't even have a full jury at the beginning of this day.

[00:07:24] [SPEAKER_02]: And we need to have a total of 16.

[00:07:28] [SPEAKER_02]: Yes.

[00:07:28] [SPEAKER_02]: Because we need 12 jurors and four alternates.

[00:07:31] [SPEAKER_02]: So it was a bit ominous that we'd lost three jurors and the trial had not even started.

[00:07:36] [SPEAKER_00]: In addition to that, we learned that the state had used nine strikes the previous day

[00:07:41] [SPEAKER_00]: and the defense had used seven strikes.

[00:07:43] [SPEAKER_00]: We described earlier strikes are when a prospect of jurors removed.

[00:07:48] [SPEAKER_00]: So I believe you talked about strikes for cause where there is like some specific reason,

[00:07:55] [SPEAKER_00]: like this person can't be fair or they know people in the case.

[00:07:59] [SPEAKER_00]: And that's just get them out of here.

[00:08:01] [SPEAKER_02]: And then there's preemptory strikes.

[00:08:03] [SPEAKER_02]: Those are the strikes.

[00:08:04] [SPEAKER_02]: Each side gets a number of those.

[00:08:06] [SPEAKER_02]: You can strike a person for any reason not related to, you know, like trying to get all members of a particular gender or racial background off the case.

[00:08:16] [SPEAKER_02]: For instance, I don't know who dismissed this person today, but there was a juror today, a prospective juror, who mentioned,

[00:08:26] [SPEAKER_02]: well, you know, I was on a jury trial 50 years ago.

[00:08:30] [SPEAKER_02]: And in that trial, it was tended to for conviction.

[00:08:33] [SPEAKER_02]: And I was one of the two holdouts who refused to convict and triggered a mistrial.

[00:08:39] [SPEAKER_02]: So I would imagine if you were a member of the prosecution, you say, wait a minute, I've got a bad feeling about this guy.

[00:08:45] [SPEAKER_02]: Now, just the fact that he was a holdout in a jury trial 50 years ago, that's not a legal cause.

[00:08:51] [SPEAKER_00]: No, maybe he was totally right.

[00:08:53] [SPEAKER_00]: Maybe, you know, he was one of the people who, like, it doesn't mean he would necessarily find that way in every case.

[00:08:59] [SPEAKER_02]: But maybe it would give you a bit of a feeling like, well, maybe I can do better if you're the prosecutor.

[00:09:04] [SPEAKER_02]: That would be an example of why you might want to use one of your preemptory challenges.

[00:09:07] [SPEAKER_00]: And the defense might have things if somebody is saying, you know, if there's a similar thing where, you know,

[00:09:12] [SPEAKER_00]: maybe he was one of the holdouts for conviction, maybe they would say, hmm, this doesn't bode well.

[00:09:18] [SPEAKER_00]: This is, I mean, to use a very silly parlance, it's more of the vibe strike, right?

[00:09:23] [SPEAKER_00]: It's not, it doesn't have to be anything specific.

[00:09:25] [SPEAKER_00]: It's just like, I don't, no thank you.

[00:09:27] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I get some bad vibes here, so let's just move on.

[00:09:31] [SPEAKER_00]: Let's not do it.

[00:09:32] [SPEAKER_02]: You want to talk about some of the back and forth between the attorneys and the judge prior to the first panel coming in?

[00:09:40] [SPEAKER_00]: It got, I don't want to say heated, maybe a little heated.

[00:09:46] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it's good.

[00:09:47] [SPEAKER_00]: Previously we'd seen a lot of cordiality.

[00:09:49] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, heated is probably the wrong word.

[00:09:50] [SPEAKER_00]: It's just there was definitely a conflict.

[00:09:53] [SPEAKER_00]: So there was a lot of discussion where Baldwin, Andrew Baldwin, one of the defense attorneys,

[00:10:00] [SPEAKER_00]: brought up something he was at.

[00:10:04] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I don't really understand all the legal stuff around this, Kevin, so you're going to have to help me out.

[00:10:07] [SPEAKER_00]: But what it boiled down to was Baldwin brought something up and there was a conflict between him,

[00:10:14] [SPEAKER_00]: Nicholas McClellan, the prosecutor, and Judge Gall, Judge Francis Gall, the presiding judge in this case.

[00:10:20] [SPEAKER_02]: Baldwin was saying Nick McClellan is telling people that beyond a reasonable doubt,

[00:10:24] [SPEAKER_02]: it just means you have to be firmly convinced.

[00:10:27] [SPEAKER_02]: And Baldwin said, well, you need more than that.

[00:10:30] [SPEAKER_02]: And McClellan said, well, firmly convinced is, you know, that's what it says in the definition.

[00:10:37] [SPEAKER_00]: In Indiana, yeah.

[00:10:38] [SPEAKER_02]: In Indiana.

[00:10:40] [SPEAKER_02]: And he said, you know, and I had to object when Baldwin was doing the stuff earlier

[00:10:45] [SPEAKER_02]: because yesterday he was trying to condition the jury because he was asking how they would vote in this case

[00:10:51] [SPEAKER_02]: or trying to indirectly ask how they would vote.

[00:10:54] [SPEAKER_00]: So we didn't really talk about that in our previous episode.

[00:10:56] [SPEAKER_00]: Maybe I kind of missed it.

[00:10:57] [SPEAKER_00]: But what is conditioning a jury?

[00:10:59] [SPEAKER_00]: What was he complaining about?

[00:11:01] [SPEAKER_00]: Why is that a problem?

[00:11:03] [SPEAKER_00]: Was Baldwin doing it?

[00:11:04] [SPEAKER_00]: Because I praised Baldwin's performance yesterday.

[00:11:07] [SPEAKER_02]: Baldwin's style was great.

[00:11:08] [SPEAKER_02]: But yeah, you don't, you want to, it's a fine line because obviously both sides want to know

[00:11:15] [SPEAKER_02]: how the jury is going to vote.

[00:11:18] [SPEAKER_02]: That helps them pick the jury.

[00:11:20] [SPEAKER_02]: But you can't just ask that.

[00:11:22] [SPEAKER_02]: So it's like what I said yesterday.

[00:11:24] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, you did say that.

[00:11:25] [SPEAKER_02]: Where you, if you want to know how much money someone makes, you know, and ask them that question,

[00:11:29] [SPEAKER_02]: you say, oh, what kind of car do you drive?

[00:11:30] [SPEAKER_02]: Or where do you live?

[00:11:32] [SPEAKER_02]: Or what restaurants do you like?

[00:11:33] [SPEAKER_02]: And that gives you an idea.

[00:11:35] [SPEAKER_02]: So you just kind of dance around that.

[00:11:38] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:11:39] [SPEAKER_02]: And try to get the information from the jurors in an indirect way.

[00:11:43] [SPEAKER_02]: And in essence, McClellan felt Baldwin went too far.

[00:11:47] [SPEAKER_00]: And because he was, he was pressing it pretty far.

[00:11:50] [SPEAKER_00]: Like, could you find this guy innocent?

[00:11:52] [SPEAKER_00]: Wasn't it something like that?

[00:11:53] [SPEAKER_00]: Like, or like, you know, do you think he's guilty?

[00:11:55] [SPEAKER_00]: He was getting pretty direct at one point.

[00:11:58] [SPEAKER_00]: And that was when McClellan objected.

[00:12:00] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:12:00] [SPEAKER_00]: And looking back at my notes, yeah, I remember looking back at them today, I was like, yeah,

[00:12:05] [SPEAKER_00]: he was pretty direct there.

[00:12:06] [SPEAKER_00]: I didn't realize as a non-lawyer that that would even be a problem.

[00:12:10] [SPEAKER_00]: But it makes sense.

[00:12:12] [SPEAKER_00]: You're supposed to dance around it, I guess.

[00:12:14] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, dance around it a bit.

[00:12:16] [SPEAKER_02]: So I want to mention then.

[00:12:19] [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, but anyways, but basically, Gull came down on McClellan's side and was very much like

[00:12:24] [SPEAKER_00]: you were conditioning and, and based on what we saw.

[00:12:28] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I can.

[00:12:29] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:12:29] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, that's fair.

[00:12:32] [SPEAKER_02]: Gull then announced what the schedule was going to be.

[00:12:36] [SPEAKER_02]: We're going to finish picking the jury today.

[00:12:38] [SPEAKER_02]: This will be important later.

[00:12:40] [SPEAKER_02]: Put a pin in this.

[00:12:42] [SPEAKER_02]: We're going to finish picking the jury today.

[00:12:44] [SPEAKER_02]: And then after that, we're going to rule on all the outstanding motions today, except

[00:12:49] [SPEAKER_02]: for one, which has witnesses.

[00:12:51] [SPEAKER_02]: And we'll take care of that one Thursday morning.

[00:12:54] [SPEAKER_02]: So that is what everybody was told the plan was.

[00:12:57] [SPEAKER_02]: Put a pin in that.

[00:13:02] [SPEAKER_02]: And then basically, a new group of 52 prospective jurors came in.

[00:13:08] [SPEAKER_02]: So this was a different group than the 52 that were in yesterday.

[00:13:12] [SPEAKER_02]: So that meant they had to get the same preparatory speeches from Judge Gull explaining the process

[00:13:19] [SPEAKER_02]: that the previous group got.

[00:13:21] [SPEAKER_02]: And they also had to have McClellan and his fellow prosecutors, James Luttrell and Stacey

[00:13:27] [SPEAKER_02]: Diener, introduce themselves, give the name of their witnesses.

[00:13:30] [SPEAKER_02]: They had to have Brad Rosey, Jennifer Oje, and Andrew Baldwin introduce themselves, give

[00:13:36] [SPEAKER_02]: their witnesses, and so on.

[00:13:39] [SPEAKER_02]: And Gull had to read the charges.

[00:13:42] [SPEAKER_02]: And then it was time, I believe, for the mini opening statements.

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[00:15:34] [SPEAKER_02]: We had these yesterday.

[00:15:35] [SPEAKER_02]: We had them today.

[00:15:37] [SPEAKER_02]: In some ways, they were pretty similar.

[00:15:39] [SPEAKER_00]: But they also both had some details in them that I think at least members of the press

[00:15:44] [SPEAKER_00]: that we spoke to afterwards really latched onto.

[00:15:47] [SPEAKER_00]: And so why would you do that?

[00:15:49] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, help carry the media narrative.

[00:15:53] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, that helps kind of.

[00:15:55] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:15:55] [SPEAKER_02]: Let's be blunt.

[00:15:56] [SPEAKER_02]: There was a lot of repetition today from yesterday.

[00:15:58] [SPEAKER_02]: Yes.

[00:15:59] [SPEAKER_02]: So if you're one of these lawyers and you want to get your story and your angle in the press,

[00:16:06] [SPEAKER_02]: put in something different, something that will grab the attention.

[00:16:09] [SPEAKER_00]: And in addition to that, maybe more importantly, you're sort of letting prospective jurors know,

[00:16:14] [SPEAKER_00]: I've got a winning case.

[00:16:16] [SPEAKER_00]: You know, you want them on your side.

[00:16:17] [SPEAKER_00]: You don't want them to sit up there and being like, what?

[00:16:20] [SPEAKER_00]: Like, okay, these people are going to lose for either side.

[00:16:23] [SPEAKER_00]: So both sides are going to make their case sound as strong as possible.

[00:16:26] [SPEAKER_00]: And that's important to remember for both sides because there's going to be a lack of context.

[00:16:31] [SPEAKER_00]: You're not going to have, you know, for instance, if I'm, if Kevin's up there prosecuting me for stealing cereal,

[00:16:37] [SPEAKER_00]: to use our typical silly example, he's not going to say, well, you know, Anya's, you know,

[00:16:43] [SPEAKER_00]: fingerprints were found in the grocery store where there was this robbery,

[00:16:46] [SPEAKER_00]: but they were found actually in the vegetable section.

[00:16:49] [SPEAKER_00]: And it may, she was actually on camera there the earlier that day.

[00:16:51] [SPEAKER_00]: So maybe that kind of complicated.

[00:16:53] [SPEAKER_00]: He's not going to add in all the bad news.

[00:16:55] [SPEAKER_00]: He's just going to say her fingerprints were in the grocery store.

[00:16:58] [SPEAKER_00]: And then the jury's going to be like, oh, they got her.

[00:17:01] [SPEAKER_00]: And then later on in trial, they might be like, oh, wait, okay.

[00:17:05] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, that's a little more complicated.

[00:17:06] [SPEAKER_00]: Just, just pointing that out.

[00:17:08] [SPEAKER_02]: So do you want to talk a bit about Prosecutor McClellan's opening statement?

[00:17:12] [SPEAKER_02]: And I'll, I'll, I'll mention that a reporter said, oh, there was something new in it.

[00:17:17] [SPEAKER_02]: And I just went back to my notes from yesterday.

[00:17:20] [SPEAKER_02]: And that detail was in my notes.

[00:17:22] [SPEAKER_00]: I knew it.

[00:17:22] [SPEAKER_00]: And I said that, but you know, it's understandable because we're all getting inundated with information

[00:17:26] [SPEAKER_00]: and it's no, there's no way to check it if it's not in your notes because it's not being broadcast.

[00:17:32] [SPEAKER_00]: So, um.

[00:17:33] [SPEAKER_02]: We're talking more about that later too.

[00:17:35] [SPEAKER_02]: A lot more.

[00:17:36] [SPEAKER_00]: But anyways, I did think it was in the previous day, but I'll emphasize it because I think

[00:17:39] [SPEAKER_00]: it caught a lot of people's attention today.

[00:17:41] [SPEAKER_00]: So the thing that was, was interesting that a lot of people focused on with McClellan's

[00:17:45] [SPEAKER_00]: was, uh, the fact that he claims that Bridge Guy, who he says is Richard Allen, was interrupted.

[00:17:52] [SPEAKER_00]: That he was interrupted during the sort of, um, what was supposed to be an abduction, uh,

[00:17:58] [SPEAKER_00]: possible sexual assault of the two victims, Liberty German and Abigail Williams, and that

[00:18:03] [SPEAKER_00]: he was interrupted.

[00:18:05] [SPEAKER_00]: So this does, what people were talking about outside and what people were speculating about,

[00:18:09] [SPEAKER_00]: like, how, how could that happen?

[00:18:11] [SPEAKER_00]: Did, like, did somebody, was this a witness?

[00:18:13] [SPEAKER_00]: Like, how, how was he interrupted?

[00:18:15] [SPEAKER_00]: What happened to interrupt him?

[00:18:17] [SPEAKER_00]: And what does this, what does this tell us about the case?

[00:18:20] [SPEAKER_00]: So I think that was something that kind of people focused on on that side of things.

[00:18:27] [SPEAKER_02]: Andrew Baldwin's, uh, mini opening was maybe a bit stronger and a bit more dramatic

[00:18:31] [SPEAKER_02]: than the one he did yesterday.

[00:18:33] [SPEAKER_00]: He improved.

[00:18:34] [SPEAKER_00]: I feel like McClellan was sort of at the same level, which was a very high level.

[00:18:38] [SPEAKER_00]: Uh, Baldwin yesterday was, was good.

[00:18:40] [SPEAKER_00]: Today, I think better.

[00:18:41] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I would agree.

[00:18:43] [SPEAKER_02]: So one of the, uh, details he mentioned that was not in his remarks yesterday,

[00:18:48] [SPEAKER_02]: he was talking about, uh, the confessions that Richard Allen gave.

[00:18:54] [SPEAKER_02]: And he's, he was saying, we know there's details in these, in these confessions that, uh, are not accurate.

[00:19:00] [SPEAKER_02]: He says, for instance, Richard Allen says that I think I killed my family and my grandchildren.

[00:19:06] [SPEAKER_02]: And of course, Richard Allen did not kill his family.

[00:19:10] [SPEAKER_02]: And, uh, as far as we know, does not have any grandchildren.

[00:19:14] [SPEAKER_02]: And I think that, that was mentioned.

[00:19:17] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that was, that's very, that was in a, not in this, not in what deer, but like in a previous hearing a long time ago.

[00:19:25] [SPEAKER_00]: Right.

[00:19:25] [SPEAKER_02]: Right. And I thought at the time, and I could be wrong, this could be my crazy off-the-wall interpretation.

[00:19:35] [SPEAKER_02]: I interpret it as him speaking kind of symbolically.

[00:19:39] [SPEAKER_02]: Like, I did something so terrible, it killed their reputations.

[00:19:43] [SPEAKER_02]: And didn't just kill their reputations and their good name, it even goes down to my unborn grandchildren.

[00:19:48] [SPEAKER_01]: Wow.

[00:19:49] [SPEAKER_02]: That's how I interpreted it.

[00:19:50] [SPEAKER_00]: Okay.

[00:19:51] [SPEAKER_02]: Am I crazy?

[00:19:52] [SPEAKER_00]: No, you're not crazy. That's an interpretation.

[00:19:54] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I don't, I don't know.

[00:19:55] [SPEAKER_00]: To me, one thing Baldwin emphasized was context.

[00:19:58] [SPEAKER_00]: What is the context of the confessions?

[00:20:00] [SPEAKER_00]: And I very much agree with that.

[00:20:01] [SPEAKER_00]: I want to know what exactly was said and when.

[00:20:04] [SPEAKER_00]: And I want to know, is he on recording saying these things?

[00:20:07] [SPEAKER_00]: Or is this something where someone else is claiming he said them?

[00:20:09] [SPEAKER_00]: And I think that's an important distinction.

[00:20:12] [SPEAKER_00]: Because I think if I, if he's saying them and he's saying them intermingled with other, better confessions for the prosecution,

[00:20:18] [SPEAKER_00]: then that might raise questions.

[00:20:19] [SPEAKER_00]: If it's a situation where he's, he's consistently saying things that are at least accurate, you know, verbally, and that's being recorded.

[00:20:27] [SPEAKER_00]: And then other people are claiming he's saying kind of off the wall things.

[00:20:30] [SPEAKER_00]: Then I don't know.

[00:20:32] [SPEAKER_00]: Those seem more like outliers.

[00:20:34] [SPEAKER_00]: Or maybe people are putting words in his mouth.

[00:20:35] [SPEAKER_00]: Or maybe people are misunderstanding what he's saying.

[00:20:37] [SPEAKER_00]: So I guess I want to know context.

[00:20:40] [SPEAKER_02]: Baldwin wanted to emphasize the normalcy, for lack of a better word, of Allen's life prior to this.

[00:20:49] [SPEAKER_02]: So he mentioned he had a wife of 30 years.

[00:20:51] [SPEAKER_02]: He had a dog.

[00:20:52] [SPEAKER_02]: He raised a daughter.

[00:20:54] [SPEAKER_02]: And then he switched to talk about what prison is like.

[00:20:59] [SPEAKER_02]: And I'm going to raise my voice here to try to mimic what Baldwin did.

[00:21:04] [SPEAKER_02]: Baldwin said, oh, he endured terrible things.

[00:21:06] [SPEAKER_02]: You're a child killer.

[00:21:07] [SPEAKER_02]: Baby killer.

[00:21:09] [SPEAKER_00]: Kill yourself.

[00:21:10] [SPEAKER_02]: Kill yourself.

[00:21:12] [SPEAKER_02]: So he did that.

[00:21:14] [SPEAKER_02]: He really raised his voice in the courtroom to mimic what he claims was shouted at Richard Allen.

[00:21:21] [SPEAKER_02]: He says there's no DNA or fingerprints.

[00:21:24] [SPEAKER_02]: And then what was the big thing?

[00:21:27] [SPEAKER_00]: He claimed that Abby had some kind of hair in her grasp, in her hand, that doesn't match Richard Allen.

[00:21:39] [SPEAKER_00]: What was your initial reaction to that?

[00:21:42] [SPEAKER_02]: It raises questions.

[00:21:44] [SPEAKER_02]: So my first reaction to that is lawyers always phrase things very, very carefully.

[00:21:52] [SPEAKER_02]: So he mentioned there was hair.

[00:21:55] [SPEAKER_02]: He didn't say it was human hair.

[00:21:56] [SPEAKER_02]: So is it animal hair?

[00:21:59] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:21:59] [SPEAKER_00]: If it's animal hair, then it couldn't have been Richard Allen's.

[00:22:02] [SPEAKER_02]: And then he didn't necessarily say that the hair could be traced to any other suspect.

[00:22:10] [SPEAKER_02]: So is it Abby's own hair?

[00:22:12] [SPEAKER_02]: Is it Libby's hair?

[00:22:13] [SPEAKER_02]: Is it family hair?

[00:22:14] [SPEAKER_02]: Is it the hair of an unknown male?

[00:22:17] [SPEAKER_02]: Was it even tested?

[00:22:18] [SPEAKER_02]: These are questions I would have.

[00:22:19] [SPEAKER_02]: And I would imagine we would get answers to those in the trial.

[00:22:24] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:22:25] [SPEAKER_00]: It's one of those things where it could be highly significant if it's one of those things.

[00:22:29] [SPEAKER_00]: And it could be completely insignificant if it's not.

[00:22:33] [SPEAKER_00]: And so it's hard.

[00:22:34] [SPEAKER_00]: But that was very exciting for the media.

[00:22:36] [SPEAKER_00]: The media is probably going to run with that mostly as I think the lead story based on what we kind of saw the reaction.

[00:22:43] [SPEAKER_00]: And that's the goal.

[00:22:44] [SPEAKER_00]: But, I mean, I guess I'm just like love to know more.

[00:22:47] [SPEAKER_00]: Would love to know how that was examined.

[00:22:49] [SPEAKER_00]: And to me, hair is one of those types of DNA where that's a little bit murkier.

[00:22:56] [SPEAKER_00]: So I think there's different levels of DNA when you're looking at a crime scene.

[00:23:02] [SPEAKER_00]: If someone's blood is at a crime scene or their semen, bodily fluids, then that does raise a lot of questions about how did that get there?

[00:23:10] [SPEAKER_00]: Like was there a violent struggle?

[00:23:11] [SPEAKER_00]: Was there sexual intercourse?

[00:23:13] [SPEAKER_00]: What not?

[00:23:14] [SPEAKER_00]: When it comes to things like touch DNA, well, you know, if I put my hand on your car, you drive away and get murdered.

[00:23:22] [SPEAKER_00]: Then, you know, if my maybe I was just leaning on in a parking lot somewhere, it doesn't mean I was directly involved necessarily.

[00:23:29] [SPEAKER_00]: And but in hairs kind of like that where you can have it be carried by other people.

[00:23:34] [SPEAKER_00]: You know, if you're living together in close proximity, we've seen that with the Long Island serial killer case where the suspect's wife's hair is at the scene.

[00:23:42] [SPEAKER_00]: But, you know, investigators have made it clear they don't think she's directly involved in the murders.

[00:23:47] [SPEAKER_00]: So it's like I guess hair, it depends more on the context.

[00:23:51] [SPEAKER_00]: So would be curious to know, but certainly something that would be good to learn during trial.

[00:23:55] [SPEAKER_00]: An unanswered question.

[00:23:57] [SPEAKER_02]: Baldwin also mentioned that ballistics is a bunch of bunk.

[00:24:01] [SPEAKER_02]: So a lot of this trial is going to be about trying to question or call into doubt the ballistics evidence.

[00:24:11] [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, yeah, because that is something that's a big deal for the prosecution.

[00:24:16] [SPEAKER_00]: They kind of, you know, that that that kind of is something that their case, you know, he mentioned it.

[00:24:21] [SPEAKER_00]: McClellan mentioned it in his mini opening statement.

[00:24:23] [SPEAKER_00]: Did you catch his Baldwin's Gertrude Stein moment?

[00:24:27] [SPEAKER_00]: Data is data is data is data.

[00:24:29] [SPEAKER_02]: I did not.

[00:24:30] [SPEAKER_00]: So the thing that he thinks is hard data is Libby's phone.

[00:24:33] [SPEAKER_00]: Libby's phone is going to bust this thing wide open.

[00:24:35] [SPEAKER_00]: I think what he's talking about there and I may be totally wrong.

[00:24:39] [SPEAKER_00]: So just know that this is speculation on my part.

[00:24:41] [SPEAKER_00]: But from what we've seen from the defense team in the past and in past hearings,

[00:24:44] [SPEAKER_00]: is that they're very interested in this idea that the girls may have been abducted from the scene

[00:24:51] [SPEAKER_00]: and then brought back and killed much later than anyone thought.

[00:24:57] [SPEAKER_00]: And they talk about how around 4 a.m. on February 14th, 2017, before the girls were found,

[00:25:03] [SPEAKER_00]: after they disappeared, that Libby's phone switched on.

[00:25:07] [SPEAKER_00]: And what they claim and what they've claimed without any real information from experts is that that could only happen if the phone was turned on by somebody.

[00:25:20] [SPEAKER_00]: Now, when we look into it, the truth seems more complicated.

[00:25:25] [SPEAKER_00]: It seems like, I don't know.

[00:25:27] [SPEAKER_00]: But they're saying the phone is a really big deal.

[00:25:30] [SPEAKER_00]: So they're writing that check.

[00:25:32] [SPEAKER_00]: And in some form, whether that's because of what I mentioned, where like, oh, this proves there was another killer.

[00:25:39] [SPEAKER_00]: And could Richard Allen have really gone back to the scene?

[00:25:43] [SPEAKER_00]: Or maybe it's something else completely different and they're just kind of introducing it now.

[00:25:48] [SPEAKER_00]: So I guess it's unclear, but they think Libby's phone is going to have something big.

[00:25:53] [SPEAKER_00]: Or that's it.

[00:25:54] [SPEAKER_00]: I should say that's what they're saying.

[00:25:55] [SPEAKER_02]: That's what they're saying.

[00:25:57] [SPEAKER_02]: After that, Gull mentioned that the jury will have supervised family days on Sundays.

[00:26:03] [SPEAKER_02]: And then it was time for round one.

[00:26:05] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know how much detail we need to go into on these rounds because a lot of it is repetitive.

[00:26:12] [SPEAKER_00]: McClellan dropped the frosty example.

[00:26:14] [SPEAKER_00]: Did you notice that?

[00:26:15] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:26:16] [SPEAKER_02]: He did not use the frosty example today.

[00:26:19] [SPEAKER_00]: What do we make of this?

[00:26:20] [SPEAKER_00]: No, I'm just kidding.

[00:26:21] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I imagine they're going to mix it up, you know, and whatever.

[00:26:25] [SPEAKER_00]: But, you know, it's kind of more of the same.

[00:26:26] [SPEAKER_00]: I feel like we heard a lot of people talk about they don't want to be away from their kids.

[00:26:30] [SPEAKER_00]: There's people who are young parents.

[00:26:32] [SPEAKER_00]: There's people who have really important work stuff coming up.

[00:26:35] [SPEAKER_00]: A lot of people have caregiving issues.

[00:26:39] [SPEAKER_00]: There's just all kinds of things that would make people say, this is not a good time for me and I do not feel I can do this.

[00:26:48] [SPEAKER_00]: And so McClellan always seemed to take care to really try to engage with people about that and never seemed pushy, seemed very much like,

[00:26:57] [SPEAKER_00]: I want to understand what you need so we cannot force you into a situation where you're going to be, your life's going to be wrecked or whatever.

[00:27:06] [SPEAKER_02]: Rosie handled the first round for the defense.

[00:27:12] [SPEAKER_02]: I thought at first he did a much better job than he did yesterday.

[00:27:19] [SPEAKER_02]: What did you think?

[00:27:20] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, at one point he was like, you know, kidding with one of the jurors, like, oh, you're a rule follower, you're one of those guys.

[00:27:25] [SPEAKER_00]: Like, he seemed to be a little more relaxed in the beginning, which was good and an improvement over yesterday where I felt he was absolutely, by far, the weakest link out of everybody.

[00:27:37] [SPEAKER_00]: To the point where he literally just made all sorts of faux pas.

[00:27:41] [SPEAKER_00]: It wasn't like, oh, you're just not as good as, like, McClellan, Baldwin, Auger.

[00:27:46] [SPEAKER_00]: It was like, you're saying awkward things that seem to be making people uncomfortable.

[00:27:50] [SPEAKER_02]: The rule follower line to me didn't come across to me.

[00:27:53] [SPEAKER_02]: Maybe it came across to you and everyone else.

[00:27:54] [SPEAKER_02]: Maybe it came across as a joke to you.

[00:27:56] [SPEAKER_02]: To me, it sounded a bit condescending.

[00:27:58] [SPEAKER_00]: It was kind of condescending, in fairness.

[00:28:00] [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, I guess I'm just like, when a guy is trying, I guess I, he seemed like he was trying at least.

[00:28:06] [SPEAKER_02]: And then he had another moment where he, the defense kept on bringing up the fact, you know, during this trial, we're going to be laughing a lot over at our defense table.

[00:28:17] [SPEAKER_02]: And you can't, you can't blame us for that.

[00:28:20] [SPEAKER_00]: Richard Allen's going to be doing a stand-up routine and we're going to be laughing our heads off to support him.

[00:28:24] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, what are they, why, what are they preparing us for?

[00:28:27] [SPEAKER_00]: All they have to say is like, all they have to say is like, Richard Allen is not you.

[00:28:32] [SPEAKER_00]: Richard Allen has a lot of stuff going on.

[00:28:34] [SPEAKER_00]: And if he doesn't react the way you think he should, maybe be open-minded about that.

[00:28:38] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know why they know, yeah, we're chuckling and guffawing and slapping our knees.

[00:28:42] [SPEAKER_00]: It's just gallows humor, folks.

[00:28:44] [SPEAKER_02]: And so when he tried to make this point in this first round, he said, we know, sometimes in a tough situation, it helps to add a little levity.

[00:28:55] [SPEAKER_02]: And then he paused for a moment and he said, oh, do you know what levity is?

[00:29:00] [SPEAKER_00]: Do you remember that?

[00:29:02] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I cringed.

[00:29:05] [SPEAKER_00]: Like, I mean, why try to like brag about your diction subtly to a group of jurors?

[00:29:12] [SPEAKER_00]: Like, why do you need to do that?

[00:29:14] [SPEAKER_00]: You know what I mean?

[00:29:17] [SPEAKER_00]: Like, I mean, like, I mean, with gallows humor, at least you could say, well, maybe some people wouldn't know the phrase.

[00:29:22] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know.

[00:29:23] [SPEAKER_00]: Like, that's pretty commonly used.

[00:29:25] [SPEAKER_00]: But like, but with levity, it just, his manner, he has a tone problem.

[00:29:30] [SPEAKER_00]: He, like, Baldwin is better at kind of being a little bit direct with people, but in a way where you don't feel he's talking down to them.

[00:29:37] [SPEAKER_00]: Whereas with Rosie, it's like he's peering down his nose at these people and like, just like, you know, salt of the air with jurors.

[00:29:45] [SPEAKER_00]: You know, you don't even know what the meaning of levity.

[00:29:47] [SPEAKER_00]: Like, I mean, like, what is he doing?

[00:29:49] [SPEAKER_02]: Let me have my little amusements with my...

[00:29:51] [SPEAKER_00]: Let me have my amusements with my clients.

[00:29:54] [SPEAKER_00]: We must revel in the gallows humor.

[00:29:56] [SPEAKER_00]: And if we are laughing, do not scoff at us.

[00:29:59] [SPEAKER_00]: Do you know what scoff means?

[00:30:00] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, like, I mean, I don't, it just, he's not good at this.

[00:30:05] [SPEAKER_00]: Why was he doing this?

[00:30:06] [SPEAKER_00]: Why was he in charge?

[00:30:07] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know.

[00:30:08] [SPEAKER_02]: He's good at other things.

[00:30:09] [SPEAKER_00]: He's good at other things.

[00:30:10] [SPEAKER_00]: Baldwin is better at this.

[00:30:12] [SPEAKER_00]: I would say OJ is better at this.

[00:30:14] [SPEAKER_00]: Anyone on the team would have been better at this.

[00:30:16] [SPEAKER_02]: I think if you want to have a good, tough cross-examination, Rosie's your man.

[00:30:21] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, get Rosie for that.

[00:30:23] [SPEAKER_00]: Get Rosie to grill people on the stand.

[00:30:25] [SPEAKER_00]: He's good at that.

[00:30:26] [SPEAKER_00]: He's aggressive.

[00:30:27] [SPEAKER_00]: We've heard people who've had him either in family court or in different cases he's done

[00:30:33] [SPEAKER_00]: talk about he's a pit bull.

[00:30:34] [SPEAKER_00]: You know, and we have a pit bull ourselves, so we're not saying, like, they're inherently

[00:30:38] [SPEAKER_00]: bad dogs.

[00:30:39] [SPEAKER_00]: But it's just, it's like, you want to have the more aggressive person do things that,

[00:30:44] [SPEAKER_00]: you know, suit their strengths, right?

[00:30:46] [SPEAKER_00]: You know, like, it's like a relay race.

[00:30:48] [SPEAKER_00]: I used to swim, okay?

[00:30:49] [SPEAKER_00]: Like, to use a stupid example, I was a competitive swimmer, and I was somebody who specialized

[00:30:56] [SPEAKER_00]: in breaststroke.

[00:30:57] [SPEAKER_00]: That's the type of stroke in swimming that you do.

[00:31:00] [SPEAKER_00]: And if you threw me in the backstroke, oh my God, I would have been a disaster.

[00:31:05] [SPEAKER_00]: I would have come in last.

[00:31:06] [SPEAKER_00]: So you have me do what I'm good at, and then other people on the team can do what they're

[00:31:10] [SPEAKER_00]: good at.

[00:31:10] [SPEAKER_00]: And maybe we win the relay race, or at least come in a respectable third.

[00:31:14] [SPEAKER_00]: So, I mean, that's what you want to do, and I don't, I guess I just don't, I don't know

[00:31:19] [SPEAKER_00]: how they could have missed that, because it doesn't seem subtle.

[00:31:22] [SPEAKER_02]: No.

[00:31:24] [SPEAKER_02]: So at the end of this round, we got three new jurors, and you will remember, I'm sure,

[00:31:29] [SPEAKER_02]: that we said we needed four.

[00:31:31] [SPEAKER_02]: So we are very, very close.

[00:31:34] [SPEAKER_02]: And then there was a 15-minute break, and then we were all back for another round.

[00:31:41] [SPEAKER_02]: And again, a lot of similarity in Prosecutor McClellan's portion.

[00:31:50] [SPEAKER_02]: He also talked about experts.

[00:31:53] [SPEAKER_02]: He said, well, how would you determine if an expert is credible?

[00:31:56] [SPEAKER_02]: Would you consider their education and experience?

[00:32:00] [SPEAKER_02]: Did you want to say any more about his contributions to the round?

[00:32:03] [SPEAKER_00]: Tell me if I was picking up on this.

[00:32:06] [SPEAKER_00]: I felt like, I felt like generally, pretty consistently, the jurors responded well in

[00:32:12] [SPEAKER_00]: McClellan.

[00:32:12] [SPEAKER_00]: The prospective jurors, I should say.

[00:32:15] [SPEAKER_00]: People were laughing, nodding, eye contact, engaged, leaning forward in their seats.

[00:32:20] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm not saying everybody, but I'm saying generally I saw a positive reception to what he was doing.

[00:32:25] [SPEAKER_00]: It seemed like what he was doing was working.

[00:32:27] [SPEAKER_00]: He was a little bit self-deprecating, but still confident, balancing out that and trying to

[00:32:34] [SPEAKER_00]: kind of get people to make his points for him, which is good because when you're doing

[00:32:40] [SPEAKER_00]: that, then they feel like it's their idea and they feel like, oh man, I made a really

[00:32:43] [SPEAKER_00]: good point.

[00:32:44] [SPEAKER_00]: Like you're kind of having them take up your cause.

[00:32:47] [SPEAKER_00]: Right.

[00:32:48] [SPEAKER_00]: Right?

[00:32:48] [SPEAKER_00]: Where it's like, explain to us like, you know, why is CSI not that realistic?

[00:32:52] [SPEAKER_00]: You know, like, I don't know if he asked that, but kind of just getting them to get the point

[00:32:56] [SPEAKER_00]: and like make it their own.

[00:32:58] [SPEAKER_00]: That's sort of what voir dire is all about to a certain extent.

[00:33:01] [SPEAKER_00]: So I felt like they were receptive.

[00:33:02] [SPEAKER_00]: I didn't really see him bomb in these rounds.

[00:33:06] [SPEAKER_02]: I thought he performed yesterday and today at a consistently high level.

[00:33:11] [SPEAKER_00]: And you know what?

[00:33:12] [SPEAKER_00]: That's also impressive because he was the only one doing it.

[00:33:14] [SPEAKER_00]: He was the voir dire guy, which I think was smart because everyone got to know him.

[00:33:19] [SPEAKER_00]: Everyone was like, this guy's in charge.

[00:33:20] [SPEAKER_00]: This is the Carroll County prosecutor.

[00:33:22] [SPEAKER_00]: We know him.

[00:33:23] [SPEAKER_00]: Maybe we like him.

[00:33:25] [SPEAKER_00]: Positive impression, positive first impression going into things.

[00:33:28] [SPEAKER_00]: That's that he's in a good place with a lot of this.

[00:33:30] [SPEAKER_00]: And so it made sense.

[00:33:33] [SPEAKER_00]: And he, his energy didn't really seem to lag that much, you know, maybe a little bit,

[00:33:37] [SPEAKER_00]: but understandably so because he was doing all of them.

[00:33:41] [SPEAKER_02]: Baldwin.

[00:33:42] [SPEAKER_02]: He did the next round for the defense.

[00:33:48] [SPEAKER_00]: Yes.

[00:33:49] [SPEAKER_00]: He, he did the same thing.

[00:33:51] [SPEAKER_00]: And here's the thing.

[00:33:52] [SPEAKER_00]: Like, I think everybody was like, I mean, we told people the other day, I'm like, we're

[00:33:55] [SPEAKER_00]: like, it was very similar to what he did in Randy small and voir dire.

[00:33:58] [SPEAKER_00]: And I think people were like, oh, okay, well, you know, and then today he did the same exact

[00:34:01] [SPEAKER_00]: thing and people were like, oh, and that's not like, I think some people had a negative

[00:34:05] [SPEAKER_00]: impression of that.

[00:34:05] [SPEAKER_00]: Like he's doing the same thing.

[00:34:06] [SPEAKER_00]: It's like, it's like a stump speech.

[00:34:08] [SPEAKER_00]: He doesn't have to like keep reinventing the wheel just to impress the people in the gallery.

[00:34:12] [SPEAKER_00]: He's trying to impress the jurors who haven't seen this or the prospective jurors who haven't

[00:34:16] [SPEAKER_00]: seen this before.

[00:34:17] [SPEAKER_00]: So it makes sense to do sort of the same thing.

[00:34:19] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:34:19] [SPEAKER_02]: He's the prospective jurors are the audience.

[00:34:22] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:34:22] [SPEAKER_00]: It's not, he's not, he's not there to entertain us.

[00:34:24] [SPEAKER_00]: Okay.

[00:34:24] [SPEAKER_00]: Like, so, I mean, I think that it's not repetitive.

[00:34:28] [SPEAKER_00]: It's just like doing what works for him.

[00:34:30] [SPEAKER_02]: He talked a lot about the presumption of innocence, which means that as Richard Allen is sitting

[00:34:39] [SPEAKER_02]: at the defense table, he must be considered legally innocent.

[00:34:44] [SPEAKER_02]: And he wanted to make sure people understood that.

[00:34:47] [SPEAKER_02]: And he even said, well, even if you come to the conclusion that he's probably guilty of

[00:34:51] [SPEAKER_02]: these crimes, you would be required to vote him not guilty.

[00:34:55] [SPEAKER_02]: How do you feel about that?

[00:34:56] [SPEAKER_02]: And so I wanted to make, did you want to say something?

[00:34:59] [SPEAKER_01]: No, go ahead, please.

[00:34:59] [SPEAKER_02]: I wanted to make a couple of observations about that.

[00:35:04] [SPEAKER_02]: First of all, what he said was absolutely correct.

[00:35:08] [SPEAKER_02]: And you know, when you, if you serve on a jury, you don't have a verdict form that it's multiple

[00:35:15] [SPEAKER_02]: choice.

[00:35:15] [SPEAKER_02]: He is not like innocent.

[00:35:17] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, maybe guilty, probably guilty, not guilty, guilty.

[00:35:22] [SPEAKER_02]: All you have is a person is either not guilty or they're guilty.

[00:35:29] [SPEAKER_02]: And in a legal sense, you cannot vote a person guilty unless the prosecution has proven to you

[00:35:38] [SPEAKER_02]: beyond a reasonable doubt with admissible evidence that that person is in fact guilty.

[00:35:44] [SPEAKER_02]: And if they don't meet that standard, you're required to vote them not guilty.

[00:35:51] [SPEAKER_02]: You're not saying they're innocent.

[00:35:52] [SPEAKER_02]: There's a reason why the verdict is not written that way.

[00:35:56] [SPEAKER_02]: The verdict is not described as innocent.

[00:35:58] [SPEAKER_02]: You're saying not guilty.

[00:35:59] [SPEAKER_02]: And what you're saying there, again, is you do not believe that the state met their burden

[00:36:06] [SPEAKER_02]: of proving that this person is guilty.

[00:36:09] [SPEAKER_02]: You can indeed feel that the person on trial probably is guilty.

[00:36:16] [SPEAKER_02]: And you can walk out of that courtroom and tell people you think he's probably guilty.

[00:36:20] [SPEAKER_02]: But unless you're convinced beyond a reasonable doubt that he is in fact guilty, you must vote

[00:36:26] [SPEAKER_02]: not guilty.

[00:36:27] [SPEAKER_02]: Again, you're not voting innocent.

[00:36:29] [SPEAKER_02]: You're just saying they didn't prove it.

[00:36:31] [SPEAKER_02]: So all of that is true.

[00:36:34] [SPEAKER_02]: But I also think it's interesting that he and others kept on returning to this point.

[00:36:39] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, you know, even if you think he's probably guilty, you know, best case scenario, you think

[00:36:43] [SPEAKER_02]: he's probably guilty, you have to vote to acquit.

[00:36:47] [SPEAKER_01]: He's probably maybe guilty, but you know, you might think that, but don't worry about it.

[00:36:51] [SPEAKER_02]: That did not suggest to me at least a high level of confidence in their case.

[00:36:57] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:36:58] [SPEAKER_00]: Like, even if your vibes, guys, is that he's really, really probably guilty, if he's, you

[00:37:02] [SPEAKER_00]: know, like still keep in mind that you don't have to vote that way.

[00:37:05] [SPEAKER_00]: In addition to that, I think it can be confusing for people because I think no one outside the

[00:37:11] [SPEAKER_00]: legal profession necessarily, unless, you know, you're into true crime, you know, right,

[00:37:15] [SPEAKER_00]: necessarily thinks about like things like constitutional innocence.

[00:37:18] [SPEAKER_00]: So I think he kind of phrased the question in a way, I don't know whether it was designed

[00:37:22] [SPEAKER_00]: to confuse people or maybe kind of get people talking, but it was like, you have to believe

[00:37:26] [SPEAKER_00]: he's innocent now.

[00:37:27] [SPEAKER_00]: And people are looking at this guy thinking, well, maybe he killed them, maybe he didn't,

[00:37:30] [SPEAKER_00]: I just don't know.

[00:37:31] [SPEAKER_00]: But what he was trying to get them to do was say like, I understand that the state has

[00:37:35] [SPEAKER_00]: not yet met its burden because we haven't had the trial yet.

[00:37:38] [SPEAKER_00]: And if they don't meet it during trial, then I have.

[00:37:40] [SPEAKER_00]: So like, that's a, that's a concept that not many people necessarily, you know, I think

[00:37:45] [SPEAKER_00]: they thought he was asking him, them to like, say, like, let me do like a psychic move now

[00:37:50] [SPEAKER_00]: and figure it out.

[00:37:50] [SPEAKER_00]: Like, so I think that can be confusing to people, but I think he was just trying to get that,

[00:37:55] [SPEAKER_00]: you know, can I, can I talk about, and like, I think Baldwin's style where he's better than

[00:38:00] [SPEAKER_00]: Rosie here is that he's like, he talks about, like, he was talking about one point about

[00:38:03] [SPEAKER_00]: constitutional innocence.

[00:38:04] [SPEAKER_00]: Like, is that kind of a mind blower?

[00:38:06] [SPEAKER_00]: Like, he's kind of like, like, you know, man, like what's going on?

[00:38:09] [SPEAKER_00]: Like, he, he's more, um, how would you say it?

[00:38:12] [SPEAKER_00]: Like, not befuddled.

[00:38:13] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't mean like that, but he's more of like trying to kind of like get on people's level

[00:38:18] [SPEAKER_00]: a little bit at points and kind of be like, whoa, you know, like, I know this is really

[00:38:21] [SPEAKER_00]: heavy, man.

[00:38:22] [SPEAKER_00]: Like kind of a little dramatic.

[00:38:24] [SPEAKER_02]: Baldwin grew up in Southern Indiana.

[00:38:28] [SPEAKER_02]: He feels very comfortable around that milieu of just average, regular people.

[00:38:33] [SPEAKER_02]: I grew up in Southern Indiana.

[00:38:35] [SPEAKER_02]: Uh, I feel comfortable around average people.

[00:38:38] [SPEAKER_02]: I, I, I think.

[00:38:39] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't think being from Southern Indiana made him better at voir dire than Rosie, who's

[00:38:43] [SPEAKER_00]: from Logan's port.

[00:38:44] [SPEAKER_00]: Rosie's not some New York City lawyer coming in and saying, ah, you people.

[00:38:48] [SPEAKER_02]: Rosie always comes in dressed in these really expensive looking suits and Baldwin just seems

[00:38:53] [SPEAKER_02]: like a more accessible person.

[00:38:55] [SPEAKER_02]: Baldwin seems like a guy.

[00:38:56] [SPEAKER_02]: Maybe it's an illusion.

[00:38:58] [SPEAKER_02]: Maybe he's playing a role.

[00:38:59] [SPEAKER_02]: He is.

[00:38:59] [SPEAKER_02]: But he seems like a guy you can walk, you can be in a small town in Southern Indiana, walk

[00:39:05] [SPEAKER_02]: into a restaurant and he's there talking with his friend.

[00:39:07] [SPEAKER_00]: These are all trial attorneys.

[00:39:08] [SPEAKER_00]: They're all playing a role.

[00:39:10] [SPEAKER_02]: Yes.

[00:39:10] [SPEAKER_00]: And there can be situations where being the kind of fancy suit guy who, you know, is

[00:39:14] [SPEAKER_00]: kind of aggressive is really good.

[00:39:15] [SPEAKER_00]: It's just that I think Baldwin's works better for voir dire in Indiana.

[00:39:20] [SPEAKER_02]: He reminds me of a lot of people.

[00:39:23] [SPEAKER_02]: I've, I've met just regular folks, you know.

[00:39:27] [SPEAKER_00]: And so like, that's helpful for this when you're connecting with people.

[00:39:29] [SPEAKER_00]: And, and one thing, can I just say this?

[00:39:32] [SPEAKER_00]: We've seen a shift and I'd be curious if this carries over to trial.

[00:39:35] [SPEAKER_00]: So in all the pre-trial, I felt like the defense at times was practically walking up to

[00:39:40] [SPEAKER_00]: the line of like, there's an odinous conspiracy.

[00:39:42] [SPEAKER_00]: Who knows if it involves state actors, you know, like they didn't quite go that far, but

[00:39:48] [SPEAKER_00]: I felt they were really, you know, and everyone's the subject of a Frank's motion.

[00:39:53] [SPEAKER_00]: Everyone's lying.

[00:39:54] [SPEAKER_00]: Like these people are lying to cover things up.

[00:39:57] [SPEAKER_00]: And now suddenly we've pivoted from law enforcement is perhaps a bastion of odinism sympathies and

[00:40:05] [SPEAKER_00]: lies and framing an innocent man.

[00:40:08] [SPEAKER_00]: We've gone from that to Andy Baldwin's quote from today, quote, we're going to respectfully,

[00:40:13] [SPEAKER_00]: aggressively go after the police investigation.

[00:40:17] [SPEAKER_00]: So what do you make of that?

[00:40:21] [SPEAKER_00]: Do you think that, first of all, do you think that what they were doing before was

[00:40:25] [SPEAKER_00]: respectfully, aggressively going after the police investigation?

[00:40:28] [SPEAKER_00]: Or do you think it was a lot of ad hominem attacks on people and basically hint, hint,

[00:40:32] [SPEAKER_00]: they're liars.

[00:40:33] [SPEAKER_00]: You can't trust them.

[00:40:34] [SPEAKER_00]: They're trying to frame our client.

[00:40:35] [SPEAKER_00]: Because that's what I saw in those pre-trial motions.

[00:40:39] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know if the tone in the trial is going to be softer than it was in the pre-trial motions.

[00:40:46] [SPEAKER_02]: But I do know you set expectations.

[00:40:49] [SPEAKER_02]: And if you tell people, well, I'm very respectful, even if you then punch somebody in the jaw,

[00:40:53] [SPEAKER_02]: maybe they think, well, he's being respectful.

[00:40:56] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, that may be.

[00:40:58] [SPEAKER_00]: I think maybe they're going to, I mean, I don't know if they're going to tone it down.

[00:41:02] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, we've said from the beginning, it's usually better to attack the police investigation

[00:41:06] [SPEAKER_00]: and point out mistakes rather than try to, like, latch on to some conspiracy that you

[00:41:13] [SPEAKER_00]: don't really have any evidence for.

[00:41:15] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, here's the thing.

[00:41:17] [SPEAKER_02]: The defense, as they pointed out, they don't need to solve the crime.

[00:41:22] [SPEAKER_02]: They don't need to prove to you that the crime was committed by someone else.

[00:41:27] [SPEAKER_02]: So think of it this way.

[00:41:29] [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, the prosecution basically has to build a house.

[00:41:32] [SPEAKER_02]: And that house is the case against the defendant.

[00:41:35] [SPEAKER_02]: And you have to believe that that house is sturdy and is going to stand.

[00:41:41] [SPEAKER_02]: The defense doesn't have to build a house of their own.

[00:41:44] [SPEAKER_02]: All they have to do is go over to the prosecution's house and, like, kick the walls and shove them

[00:41:50] [SPEAKER_02]: and knock them around and see if they can knock it down.

[00:41:52] [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, which is why it's been so baffling at times to watch them construct, you know,

[00:42:00] [SPEAKER_00]: their Odinism palace next door to the prosecution's house instead of focusing on areas where they

[00:42:05] [SPEAKER_00]: might demolish the prosecution's house and then claiming that the Odinism house was so sturdy

[00:42:09] [SPEAKER_00]: and amazing as we all watched it fall apart in real time after a single rainstorm.

[00:42:15] [SPEAKER_00]: So that was surprising because if that's all they have to do, then you would think that they would be really focusing on getting the bulldozer ready,

[00:42:21] [SPEAKER_00]: not, like, doing whatever the heck they've been doing for a year.

[00:42:26] [SPEAKER_00]: And, frankly, overselling a lot of things that then turned out not to be true.

[00:42:30] [SPEAKER_00]: And that's why, frankly, like, even though there was some exciting things said in this session today,

[00:42:36] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm kind of at a point where it's like, okay, well, we'll see what happens at trial.

[00:42:39] [SPEAKER_00]: Because I'm not really willing to be like, wow, there's hair in Abby's hands,

[00:42:43] [SPEAKER_00]: so that must mean, like, some killer is, you know, matched to it and it's, you know, going to be whatever.

[00:42:49] [SPEAKER_00]: It's going to be a huge deal because I know that in the past when I thought things like that,

[00:42:53] [SPEAKER_00]: then it didn't really kind of play out that way.

[00:42:55] [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, so I'm curious to see what happens.

[00:42:57] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm open-minded, but I'm also at a place where I feel like a little bit skeptical

[00:43:02] [SPEAKER_00]: because of some of these detours that we've had due to the defense.

[00:43:07] [SPEAKER_02]: So Baldwin then wrapped up.

[00:43:09] [SPEAKER_02]: And after, I don't know if we've mentioned this,

[00:43:12] [SPEAKER_02]: but after each side has their half hour of questioning of the panel,

[00:43:17] [SPEAKER_02]: the attorneys get a chance to confer and decide what to do.

[00:43:21] [SPEAKER_02]: This would take anywhere 5, 10, even 15 minutes.

[00:43:24] [SPEAKER_02]: And on this occasion, during this time when the attorneys were conferring,

[00:43:31] [SPEAKER_02]: Judge Gull had an officer of the court come into the press and public area

[00:43:37] [SPEAKER_02]: and remove a closed bottle of water from a reporter's bag.

[00:43:42] [SPEAKER_02]: Somehow I guess she had spotted it and immediately just throw it away.

[00:43:46] [SPEAKER_02]: And I just ask you to keep in mind that yesterday,

[00:43:52] [SPEAKER_02]: the judge had the session go on for like, what, six, seven hours with no break.

[00:43:58] [SPEAKER_02]: So I don't think it's unreasonable for a person to bring in a closed bottle of water

[00:44:03] [SPEAKER_02]: to avoid dehydration.

[00:44:06] [SPEAKER_00]: And keep it in their bag.

[00:44:07] [SPEAKER_02]: Yes.

[00:44:08] [SPEAKER_02]: Yes.

[00:44:08] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean.

[00:44:08] [SPEAKER_02]: So I, yeah.

[00:44:10] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:44:10] [SPEAKER_00]: And they did get mad.

[00:44:12] [SPEAKER_00]: Apparently some people were eating in the courtroom.

[00:44:15] [SPEAKER_00]: I didn't see that.

[00:44:16] [SPEAKER_02]: I didn't see that.

[00:44:17] [SPEAKER_00]: They did reference it.

[00:44:18] [SPEAKER_00]: Other people told me that they saw it.

[00:44:20] [SPEAKER_00]: So.

[00:44:21] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, perhaps they could have been reprimanded for eating instead of this closed bottle of water

[00:44:27] [SPEAKER_02]: being removed from someone's bag.

[00:44:29] [SPEAKER_02]: In the coming days, I think we'll return to this topic.

[00:44:33] [SPEAKER_02]: We'll talk a little bit more later.

[00:44:34] [SPEAKER_02]: Judge Gull is not very popular with the press.

[00:44:39] [SPEAKER_02]: And just be aware of that.

[00:44:41] [SPEAKER_02]: So after that happened, one juror was selected.

[00:44:46] [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, so you're thinking, well, Kevin, you said we needed four.

[00:44:51] [SPEAKER_02]: We selected three.

[00:44:52] [SPEAKER_01]: Did we need five?

[00:44:53] [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, we needed five.

[00:44:54] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:44:54] [SPEAKER_02]: And now we got them.

[00:44:56] [SPEAKER_01]: We got them.

[00:44:56] [SPEAKER_02]: We're done.

[00:44:58] [SPEAKER_02]: No.

[00:44:59] [SPEAKER_02]: Judge Gull said, well, let's break for lunch and then we'll come back and select the rest

[00:45:04] [SPEAKER_02]: of the jury panel.

[00:45:05] [SPEAKER_00]: And everyone's walking out like, what?

[00:45:07] [SPEAKER_00]: I thought we got 16.

[00:45:09] [SPEAKER_00]: And then people were like, maybe are we going for 17 just in case?

[00:45:12] [SPEAKER_02]: No one knew.

[00:45:14] [SPEAKER_02]: No one knew what was going on.

[00:45:15] [SPEAKER_02]: That was not-

[00:45:16] [SPEAKER_02]: Least of all us.

[00:45:17] [SPEAKER_00]: We didn't know what was going on either.

[00:45:20] [SPEAKER_00]: All we knew is the math wasn't adding up.

[00:45:22] [SPEAKER_00]: We tried to take, you know, it's hard because you're, you know, all the jurors, it's sort

[00:45:26] [SPEAKER_00]: of like the TV show, The Prisoner.

[00:45:28] [SPEAKER_00]: Nobody has their names for privacy reasons.

[00:45:30] [SPEAKER_00]: That's not why it's the case on The Prisoner.

[00:45:32] [SPEAKER_00]: But anyway, I digress.

[00:45:33] [SPEAKER_00]: Everyone has a number.

[00:45:34] [SPEAKER_00]: They're taking away, they're giving you a number and taking away your name.

[00:45:37] [SPEAKER_00]: And then that's how you're referred to.

[00:45:39] [SPEAKER_00]: So it's hard to be like, okay, like 34, 35, 50.

[00:45:44] [SPEAKER_00]: But I felt like I was at least aware of how many we had.

[00:45:48] [SPEAKER_00]: And I knew at a certain point we were at 16.

[00:45:50] [SPEAKER_00]: And so it was confusing when we kept going after that because it was like, don't we have it?

[00:45:57] [SPEAKER_00]: Are we going for more?

[00:45:58] [SPEAKER_00]: Like what is happening?

[00:45:59] [SPEAKER_00]: And I think a lot of other people felt that way.

[00:46:01] [SPEAKER_00]: No one really had clear answers.

[00:46:03] [SPEAKER_02]: So we have a lunch break.

[00:46:08] [SPEAKER_02]: And the Lincoln Tower Grill, by the way, was closed.

[00:46:10] [SPEAKER_02]: I did not get my grilled cheese sandwich.

[00:46:12] [SPEAKER_02]: But after lunch, we came back and there was another round.

[00:46:18] [SPEAKER_02]: Again, kind of repetitive.

[00:46:19] [SPEAKER_02]: Do you want to talk about Prosecutor McCleland?

[00:46:21] [SPEAKER_00]: Again, it was just sort of the same thing.

[00:46:24] [SPEAKER_00]: This one, I felt like the panel was less friendly to him.

[00:46:28] [SPEAKER_00]: Not in the sense that they were unfriendly, just more of like a lot of people when they –

[00:46:32] [SPEAKER_00]: this is one concept that McCleland tried to drill down on a lot, which makes sense.

[00:46:37] [SPEAKER_00]: You know, when you say to people, when you're deciding on how to weigh in on a murder case,

[00:46:44] [SPEAKER_00]: do you want to do the standard of beyond all reasonable doubt or beyond all doubt?

[00:46:48] [SPEAKER_00]: And a lot of people get excited and they're like, beyond all doubt, it's the most important thing.

[00:46:53] [SPEAKER_00]: You know, like we're deciding a man's fate and it must be beyond all doubt.

[00:46:58] [SPEAKER_00]: And then McCleland will basically kind of walk them back and like, well, what does that mean?

[00:47:01] [SPEAKER_00]: Like because it's not super realistic that the juror is going to be able to go back in time and watch what happened

[00:47:07] [SPEAKER_00]: or that suddenly there's going to be video footage produced of what happened.

[00:47:12] [SPEAKER_02]: And also let's be realistic in this age of AI,

[00:47:15] [SPEAKER_02]: even if you had video footage of Anya stealing cereal, it could be false footage created by AI.

[00:47:23] [SPEAKER_02]: And if anyone wants to send in such footage, please do so.

[00:47:26] [SPEAKER_00]: No, don't.

[00:47:26] [SPEAKER_00]: And also – but thank you for giving me that excuse –

[00:47:29] [SPEAKER_00]: it's one of those things where that is not a reasonable standard

[00:47:33] [SPEAKER_00]: and very few murderers would ever be convicted if you said beyond all doubt.

[00:47:38] [SPEAKER_00]: Because all doubt might include the very remote possibility that some serial killer happened to come into town

[00:47:45] [SPEAKER_00]: and do the deed unbeknownst to everyone without leaving a trace.

[00:47:50] [SPEAKER_00]: That can happen.

[00:47:51] [SPEAKER_00]: That can happen.

[00:47:52] [SPEAKER_00]: But that doesn't mean that that's a reasonable doubt if there's no evidence the serial killer was there

[00:47:57] [SPEAKER_00]: and maybe there's evidence that he was somewhere else at the time.

[00:48:00] [SPEAKER_00]: So like the standard should not be beyond all doubt.

[00:48:03] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, am I crazy?

[00:48:05] [SPEAKER_00]: Is that fair to say?

[00:48:06] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, you're articulating it well.

[00:48:07] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, it's ridiculous.

[00:48:09] [SPEAKER_00]: And like frankly, it's – I mean, I don't fault people,

[00:48:13] [SPEAKER_00]: but like it is disturbing when people say that or when people say essentially,

[00:48:18] [SPEAKER_00]: well, he was arrested so he's probably guilty.

[00:48:20] [SPEAKER_00]: I feel like people like – those are two sides of the same coin.

[00:48:23] [SPEAKER_00]: When people are just making assumptions just because someone got arrested that they must be guilty

[00:48:27] [SPEAKER_00]: or that they weren't overcharged or that they couldn't be innocent

[00:48:30] [SPEAKER_00]: or that the police can't make a mistake or prosecutors can't make a mistake,

[00:48:33] [SPEAKER_00]: that is disturbing because it's like you would just have so much faith in the system

[00:48:39] [SPEAKER_00]: and just assume the worst about somebody just because this happened to happen.

[00:48:42] [SPEAKER_00]: And you're not asking questions and you're just going along with it

[00:48:47] [SPEAKER_00]: and you could end up seriously hurting an innocent person.

[00:48:50] [SPEAKER_00]: On the other side, when people are saying basically like I don't feel like I can make any sort of decision

[00:48:55] [SPEAKER_00]: based on common sense and evidence unless somebody literally like hands me on a silver pot

[00:49:02] [SPEAKER_00]: or every single possible piece of evidence, that is not reality, okay?

[00:49:06] [SPEAKER_00]: That does not happen.

[00:49:08] [SPEAKER_00]: There are so many cases that don't have good DNA or usable DNA.

[00:49:12] [SPEAKER_00]: There are so many cases that do not have good fingerprints or usable fingerprints.

[00:49:15] [SPEAKER_00]: There's a lot of cases that don't look like an episode of CSI,

[00:49:19] [SPEAKER_00]: and that does not mean that those are weak cases or that those shouldn't result in convictions

[00:49:24] [SPEAKER_00]: if the evidence is there otherwise.

[00:49:26] [SPEAKER_00]: It's both are just too unreasonable.

[00:49:29] [SPEAKER_00]: And that's why part of selecting a jury is the defense and the prosecutors

[00:49:33] [SPEAKER_00]: are often going to be seeking people in the middle who are not super biased either way.

[00:49:38] [SPEAKER_00]: So, yeah.

[00:49:39] [SPEAKER_00]: Anyways.

[00:49:40] [SPEAKER_02]: So the idea in theory is if the prosecution gets to go in there

[00:49:45] [SPEAKER_02]: and try to weed out jurors that they think might be prejudiced towards the defense

[00:49:48] [SPEAKER_02]: and the defense gets to weed out jurors that they think might be prejudiced towards the prosecution,

[00:49:53] [SPEAKER_02]: then we're going to end up with an utterly fair jury.

[00:49:55] [SPEAKER_02]: So after McClelland, it was Jennifer Auger's opportunity.

[00:50:00] [SPEAKER_02]: She returned to the theme of, well, you know, even if you think he probably did it,

[00:50:05] [SPEAKER_02]: you've got to vote to acquit, which is absolutely accurate.

[00:50:07] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:50:08] [SPEAKER_02]: And then at the end of that round of—

[00:50:11] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know if that sounds super convincing to the average juror, though.

[00:50:14] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I don't think it does.

[00:50:15] [SPEAKER_00]: But I understand.

[00:50:16] [SPEAKER_00]: But they've got to say it.

[00:50:17] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean—

[00:50:17] [SPEAKER_02]: They've got to say it.

[00:50:18] [SPEAKER_02]: But that's why I tried to stress.

[00:50:20] [SPEAKER_02]: I was worried that it wouldn't sound super convincing to people in the audience.

[00:50:24] [SPEAKER_02]: So I want to stress that when Jennifer Auger says this,

[00:50:28] [SPEAKER_02]: when Andrew Baldwin says this, they are absolutely telling the truth.

[00:50:32] [SPEAKER_00]: I think Auger did today.

[00:50:34] [SPEAKER_02]: I thought she did good.

[00:50:35] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:50:36] [SPEAKER_00]: Again.

[00:50:37] [SPEAKER_02]: Better than Rosie.

[00:50:38] [SPEAKER_00]: Yep.

[00:50:38] [SPEAKER_00]: I think Rosie is off-putting to the jurors.

[00:50:42] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm just—from looking at the way they were reacting

[00:50:44] [SPEAKER_00]: and the way he was interacting with them,

[00:50:45] [SPEAKER_00]: I just don't—I don't think that's a good fit.

[00:50:48] [SPEAKER_02]: I think the jurors like Prosecutor McClellan.

[00:50:50] [SPEAKER_02]: I think the jurors like Baldwin.

[00:50:53] [SPEAKER_02]: I think the jurors like Auger.

[00:50:54] [SPEAKER_00]: I concur.

[00:50:55] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't think they like Rosie.

[00:50:56] [SPEAKER_00]: No.

[00:50:56] [SPEAKER_00]: And I'm not saying to be mean.

[00:50:58] [SPEAKER_00]: It's just that you don't use him in that capacity

[00:51:01] [SPEAKER_00]: because it could be alienating.

[00:51:04] [SPEAKER_02]: So then out of that round we get another juror,

[00:51:08] [SPEAKER_02]: which technically for all we know means we now have 17 of the 16.

[00:51:12] [SPEAKER_02]: And then Gull has a private conference with the attorneys

[00:51:17] [SPEAKER_02]: and then says, okay, we're recessed.

[00:51:20] [SPEAKER_02]: And she disappears.

[00:51:22] [SPEAKER_02]: So question number one is, are we just recessed for a little bit?

[00:51:27] [SPEAKER_02]: Are we coming back?

[00:51:28] [SPEAKER_02]: Because you said earlier there was going to be other motions

[00:51:30] [SPEAKER_02]: that were going to be considered today.

[00:51:31] [SPEAKER_02]: And if they're not being considered today,

[00:51:33] [SPEAKER_02]: are they being considered tomorrow?

[00:51:34] [SPEAKER_02]: Are they being considered Thursday?

[00:51:36] [SPEAKER_02]: And also, why the heck do we have 17 jurors instead of 16?

[00:51:42] [SPEAKER_02]: Very, very confusing.

[00:51:44] [SPEAKER_02]: And I think I've said in the past that I feel that this judge

[00:51:48] [SPEAKER_02]: does not take seriously her role to provide public access to this.

[00:51:53] [SPEAKER_02]: I think I've said I don't think she cares about that angle of it.

[00:51:56] [SPEAKER_02]: I think it is getting to the point where I'm beginning to suspect

[00:52:00] [SPEAKER_02]: that she actively wants to impede the flow of information.

[00:52:04] [SPEAKER_02]: Because this is something that would have been very basic to say,

[00:52:07] [SPEAKER_02]: well, here's when the next hearing will be.

[00:52:09] [SPEAKER_02]: We're not going to cover these motions today.

[00:52:11] [SPEAKER_02]: We're covering them here.

[00:52:12] [SPEAKER_02]: And here's why we picked 17 jurors.

[00:52:15] [SPEAKER_02]: So what had to happen was a group of reporters

[00:52:19] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, there was a mini scrum.

[00:52:21] [SPEAKER_02]: descended on the attorneys to try to get information from them.

[00:52:25] [SPEAKER_02]: And I can tell you the attorneys seemed uncomfortable

[00:52:28] [SPEAKER_02]: with talking to the reporters because they don't want to anger Judge Gulp.

[00:52:33] [SPEAKER_00]: Also, it's not their jobs to do that, you know?

[00:52:36] [SPEAKER_02]: And I will say before I say anything else

[00:52:39] [SPEAKER_02]: that my experience of Judge Gulp's team

[00:52:42] [SPEAKER_02]: is that they seem scared of her.

[00:52:45] [SPEAKER_02]: And these attorneys, at least from the outside,

[00:52:47] [SPEAKER_02]: seem scared of her and what she might do.

[00:52:50] [SPEAKER_02]: And I would think generally it's fair to say

[00:52:53] [SPEAKER_02]: that a good leader is not feared by his subordinates

[00:52:57] [SPEAKER_02]: or her subordinates.

[00:52:58] [SPEAKER_02]: She's respected by them.

[00:52:59] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, it's also just, you know, I mean, okay.

[00:53:02] [SPEAKER_00]: Here's my take on Gulp's views on the media.

[00:53:06] [SPEAKER_00]: Just, I mean, again, we don't know what's in her heart or her head.

[00:53:09] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm just, what we're observing.

[00:53:10] [SPEAKER_00]: I think this is somebody who has no patience anymore

[00:53:14] [SPEAKER_00]: for this case in the sense,

[00:53:16] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't, I'm actually not talking about the legal process

[00:53:19] [SPEAKER_00]: because frankly, I agree with you.

[00:53:20] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't really feel like there's been anything super untoward there.

[00:53:23] [SPEAKER_00]: I think the whole situation around removing Baldwin and Rosie

[00:53:29] [SPEAKER_00]: was obviously incredibly problematic

[00:53:30] [SPEAKER_00]: and the Supreme Court of Indiana ruled on that.

[00:53:33] [SPEAKER_00]: But, you know, ultimately that's in the past

[00:53:36] [SPEAKER_00]: and they sort of absolved her for everything around that.

[00:53:38] [SPEAKER_00]: So looking at it since then,

[00:53:40] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't think there's been a lot of things.

[00:53:42] [SPEAKER_00]: You mentioned slow to do rulings.

[00:53:44] [SPEAKER_00]: I agree with that.

[00:53:45] [SPEAKER_00]: But like, there's been nothing where I'm like,

[00:53:47] [SPEAKER_00]: whoa, red flag.

[00:53:48] [SPEAKER_00]: But around the media stuff,

[00:53:50] [SPEAKER_00]: I just think there's been simmering resentment

[00:53:52] [SPEAKER_00]: perhaps that I've sensed where it's like,

[00:53:54] [SPEAKER_00]: I have to deal with all this.

[00:53:56] [SPEAKER_00]: And to a certain extent, I can,

[00:53:58] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm trying to be sympathetic here.

[00:54:00] [SPEAKER_00]: I can understand where you're like,

[00:54:03] [SPEAKER_00]: all these people are camping out

[00:54:05] [SPEAKER_00]: and focusing so much on this case.

[00:54:08] [SPEAKER_00]: But the thing is, at the end of the day,

[00:54:10] [SPEAKER_00]: it's not your role as judge to like judge that.

[00:54:13] [SPEAKER_00]: It's to accommodate the strong interest in a way that is,

[00:54:17] [SPEAKER_00]: and let me just say, like,

[00:54:19] [SPEAKER_00]: I actually think if you do a little for the media,

[00:54:22] [SPEAKER_00]: it takes off the pressure.

[00:54:25] [SPEAKER_00]: And here's an example.

[00:54:27] [SPEAKER_00]: If you have cameras in the courtroom

[00:54:29] [SPEAKER_00]: or an audio feed or a media room

[00:54:33] [SPEAKER_00]: where reporters can come and go freely,

[00:54:36] [SPEAKER_00]: people are getting better,

[00:54:38] [SPEAKER_00]: more substantive access to the case.

[00:54:40] [SPEAKER_00]: And maybe there is less chaos.

[00:54:44] [SPEAKER_00]: Just maybe.

[00:54:45] [SPEAKER_02]: Her own decisions have made the chaos worse.

[00:54:49] [SPEAKER_02]: The state this case is in is on her shoulders.

[00:54:52] [SPEAKER_02]: I feel that in the eyes of the public,

[00:54:55] [SPEAKER_02]: the Indiana legal system looks awful

[00:54:59] [SPEAKER_02]: because of some of the things she's done.

[00:55:00] [SPEAKER_02]: And I'll mention, at one point,

[00:55:05] [SPEAKER_02]: she'd said people,

[00:55:06] [SPEAKER_02]: if you need to leave during the session,

[00:55:07] [SPEAKER_02]: you can leave, but you just can't come back.

[00:55:08] [SPEAKER_02]: And at one point, a reporter stood to go,

[00:55:10] [SPEAKER_02]: and she turns and yells at him for standing up.

[00:55:13] [SPEAKER_02]: Like, what?

[00:55:14] [SPEAKER_02]: So in any case,

[00:55:16] [SPEAKER_02]: it was eventually conveyed

[00:55:17] [SPEAKER_02]: that the reason they had to pick a 17th juror

[00:55:21] [SPEAKER_02]: was because one of the other jurors was excused.

[00:55:24] [SPEAKER_02]: They did not say which juror was excused.

[00:55:27] [SPEAKER_02]: They did not say why that juror was excused.

[00:55:29] [SPEAKER_02]: And this information did not come from the judge.

[00:55:32] [SPEAKER_02]: And also, the information was conveyed

[00:55:35] [SPEAKER_02]: that the next hearing is scheduled to be on Thursday.

[00:55:39] [SPEAKER_02]: Presumably, it will deal with all of the emotions

[00:55:41] [SPEAKER_02]: that Judge Gold said would be taken care of today.

[00:55:43] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know.

[00:55:45] [SPEAKER_02]: It's still, there's a lot of confusion.

[00:55:47] [SPEAKER_02]: Is there going to be a session this Saturday?

[00:55:49] [SPEAKER_00]: No one knows.

[00:55:50] [SPEAKER_02]: No one knows.

[00:55:51] [SPEAKER_02]: This is basic communication.

[00:55:53] [SPEAKER_02]: And I want to say that the whole idea

[00:55:55] [SPEAKER_02]: of having court on Saturdays,

[00:55:59] [SPEAKER_02]: even for a limited time,

[00:56:00] [SPEAKER_02]: feels like a logistical nightmare.

[00:56:03] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm no expert,

[00:56:04] [SPEAKER_02]: but I imagine that to open up a courthouse

[00:56:06] [SPEAKER_02]: on a day it's ordinarily closed,

[00:56:07] [SPEAKER_02]: like on a Saturday,

[00:56:09] [SPEAKER_02]: you're going to have to bring in a lot of people,

[00:56:11] [SPEAKER_02]: a lot of security people,

[00:56:13] [SPEAKER_02]: maybe even pay them time and a half.

[00:56:15] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know.

[00:56:15] [SPEAKER_02]: And I imagine that is going to add an awful lot

[00:56:19] [SPEAKER_02]: to the final bill that Carroll County

[00:56:21] [SPEAKER_02]: is going to be asked to pay.

[00:56:24] [SPEAKER_02]: And it's not going to really return much.

[00:56:27] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:56:27] [SPEAKER_00]: And I just want to reiterate,

[00:56:28] [SPEAKER_00]: I can see on a human level being just sick of it

[00:56:30] [SPEAKER_00]: or being like the media is doing,

[00:56:32] [SPEAKER_00]: you know, like they're doing too much

[00:56:34] [SPEAKER_00]: and people are scrambling all over this.

[00:56:36] [SPEAKER_00]: And I can understand it making somebody grumpy

[00:56:40] [SPEAKER_00]: to a certain extent,

[00:56:41] [SPEAKER_00]: because I feel sometimes it makes me grumpy.

[00:56:43] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm like, oh my gosh,

[00:56:44] [SPEAKER_00]: you know, people just get so obsessed

[00:56:46] [SPEAKER_00]: with every little thing

[00:56:46] [SPEAKER_00]: and they run with it

[00:56:47] [SPEAKER_00]: and they post on Facebook

[00:56:48] [SPEAKER_00]: and it's like, yeah,

[00:56:49] [SPEAKER_00]: that is exhausting

[00:56:49] [SPEAKER_00]: as someone who's reported on it,

[00:56:51] [SPEAKER_00]: as someone who's been on both sides

[00:56:52] [SPEAKER_00]: where I've been the person who's interested

[00:56:54] [SPEAKER_00]: and then the person who's like,

[00:56:55] [SPEAKER_00]: okay, everyone's kind of freaking out about nothing.

[00:56:58] [SPEAKER_00]: But as judge,

[00:57:00] [SPEAKER_00]: you need to deal with it

[00:57:01] [SPEAKER_00]: because if you don't deal with it,

[00:57:04] [SPEAKER_00]: then I think the situation gets actively worse.

[00:57:06] [SPEAKER_00]: I would liken it in a stupid metaphor.

[00:57:09] [SPEAKER_00]: You know, if you ever go in the ocean

[00:57:11] [SPEAKER_00]: and you, if you try to,

[00:57:13] [SPEAKER_00]: and you, you know,

[00:57:14] [SPEAKER_00]: you've been in the ocean too, Kevin,

[00:57:15] [SPEAKER_00]: tell me if this is off base,

[00:57:16] [SPEAKER_00]: but if you try to,

[00:57:18] [SPEAKER_00]: I remember when I was little,

[00:57:19] [SPEAKER_00]: I was told,

[00:57:20] [SPEAKER_00]: don't like lock your knees

[00:57:22] [SPEAKER_00]: if you're hit by a big wave,

[00:57:24] [SPEAKER_00]: kind of roll with it a little bit,

[00:57:26] [SPEAKER_00]: kind of move,

[00:57:27] [SPEAKER_00]: you know,

[00:57:28] [SPEAKER_00]: adjust,

[00:57:29] [SPEAKER_00]: and then you won't get knocked down by it.

[00:57:32] [SPEAKER_00]: And in this situation,

[00:57:34] [SPEAKER_00]: it feels like the public access element

[00:57:37] [SPEAKER_00]: is getting knocked down

[00:57:38] [SPEAKER_00]: because it's very restrictive

[00:57:40] [SPEAKER_00]: and there's not a lot of flexibility.

[00:57:44] [SPEAKER_00]: And in the end,

[00:57:46] [SPEAKER_00]: having worse coverage

[00:57:48] [SPEAKER_00]: because people have to leave

[00:57:50] [SPEAKER_00]: and can't come back

[00:57:51] [SPEAKER_00]: or because there's only a few select outlets

[00:57:54] [SPEAKER_00]: that are even in the press seats

[00:57:57] [SPEAKER_00]: and then they, you know,

[00:57:59] [SPEAKER_00]: they're using pools

[00:58:00] [SPEAKER_00]: and it's just,

[00:58:02] [SPEAKER_00]: it's just not ideal.

[00:58:04] [SPEAKER_00]: And all that just emboldens more chaos

[00:58:07] [SPEAKER_00]: because then people are just saying

[00:58:08] [SPEAKER_00]: whatever they want

[00:58:09] [SPEAKER_00]: and the public is turning to them instead

[00:58:12] [SPEAKER_00]: because they're unencumbered

[00:58:13] [SPEAKER_00]: by all these rules

[00:58:14] [SPEAKER_00]: or the rules of fairness and accuracy.

[00:58:16] [SPEAKER_00]: So I just,

[00:58:19] [SPEAKER_00]: it's unfortunate

[00:58:19] [SPEAKER_00]: and I want to reiterate

[00:58:21] [SPEAKER_00]: that I think these problems

[00:58:22] [SPEAKER_00]: are pretty much exclusively,

[00:58:24] [SPEAKER_00]: it's like almost,

[00:58:24] [SPEAKER_00]: it's bizarre

[00:58:25] [SPEAKER_00]: because it's like,

[00:58:26] [SPEAKER_00]: it's almost exclusively

[00:58:27] [SPEAKER_00]: a public access,

[00:58:29] [SPEAKER_00]: public relations,

[00:58:30] [SPEAKER_00]: press relations problem

[00:58:31] [SPEAKER_00]: as opposed to a legal problem.

[00:58:34] [SPEAKER_00]: So I understand

[00:58:34] [SPEAKER_00]: that that's not necessarily the expertise,

[00:58:37] [SPEAKER_00]: but we knew that this was coming.

[00:58:40] [SPEAKER_00]: We knew that this was high profile.

[00:58:42] [SPEAKER_00]: Allen County has had months

[00:58:44] [SPEAKER_00]: to get ready

[00:58:45] [SPEAKER_00]: and that is not what has happened

[00:58:47] [SPEAKER_00]: and that is not on Carroll County.

[00:58:50] [SPEAKER_00]: It's not on the prosecution team.

[00:58:52] [SPEAKER_00]: It's not on the defense team.

[00:58:54] [SPEAKER_00]: It isn't,

[00:58:55] [SPEAKER_00]: it is on Allen County.

[00:58:58] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah,

[00:58:58] [SPEAKER_02]: people have criticized the defense team

[00:59:00] [SPEAKER_02]: for different things.

[00:59:02] [SPEAKER_02]: Ultimately,

[00:59:03] [SPEAKER_02]: the person who bears the responsibility

[00:59:05] [SPEAKER_02]: for the condition of the case.

[00:59:07] [SPEAKER_00]: When you say condition of the case,

[00:59:08] [SPEAKER_00]: what do you mean?

[00:59:09] [SPEAKER_00]: Why don't you clarify that?

[00:59:12] [SPEAKER_02]: I feel Richard Allen's rights

[00:59:14] [SPEAKER_02]: have been protected.

[00:59:15] [SPEAKER_02]: That's not a problem.

[00:59:17] [SPEAKER_02]: When I talk about condition of the case,

[00:59:18] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean the awful public access.

[00:59:22] [SPEAKER_02]: I feel that in years to come,

[00:59:24] [SPEAKER_02]: people are not going to accept

[00:59:26] [SPEAKER_02]: whatever the verdict is

[00:59:28] [SPEAKER_02]: because they weren't given a chance

[00:59:29] [SPEAKER_02]: to see the evidence.

[00:59:31] [SPEAKER_02]: And in our country,

[00:59:32] [SPEAKER_02]: we have a process

[00:59:33] [SPEAKER_02]: where you're supposed to see the evidence

[00:59:34] [SPEAKER_02]: and Judge Goll is completely neglecting that

[00:59:38] [SPEAKER_02]: to the detriment of everyone.

[00:59:40] [SPEAKER_02]: I think the people of the state of Indiana

[00:59:41] [SPEAKER_02]: have the right to see the evidence

[00:59:43] [SPEAKER_02]: and come to an informed conclusion.

[00:59:45] [SPEAKER_02]: I think they have the right to see

[00:59:48] [SPEAKER_02]: and understand what arguments

[00:59:50] [SPEAKER_02]: the prosecution makes.

[00:59:51] [SPEAKER_02]: I think they have the right to see

[00:59:52] [SPEAKER_02]: and understand the arguments

[00:59:54] [SPEAKER_02]: the defense makes.

[00:59:55] [SPEAKER_02]: Instead,

[00:59:56] [SPEAKER_02]: they're not getting that.

[00:59:57] [SPEAKER_02]: The best they're getting is

[00:59:58] [SPEAKER_02]: they're getting this information

[00:59:59] [SPEAKER_02]: filtered through us

[01:00:00] [SPEAKER_02]: and other people.

[01:00:01] [SPEAKER_02]: And that seems unnecessary.

[01:00:04] [SPEAKER_02]: And I feel that this level of secrecy

[01:00:06] [SPEAKER_02]: is creating the impression,

[01:00:08] [SPEAKER_02]: the false impression,

[01:00:09] [SPEAKER_02]: but it is creating an impression

[01:00:11] [SPEAKER_02]: that there's something shady going on here,

[01:00:13] [SPEAKER_02]: something secretive,

[01:00:14] [SPEAKER_02]: something corrupt.

[01:00:15] [SPEAKER_02]: Because generally speaking,

[01:00:17] [SPEAKER_02]: when things happen in darkness,

[01:00:19] [SPEAKER_02]: it's for a reason.

[01:00:20] [SPEAKER_02]: It's because people are hiding something.

[01:00:22] [SPEAKER_02]: And the fact is,

[01:00:24] [SPEAKER_02]: I feel that the case itself

[01:00:26] [SPEAKER_02]: is being done in a fine way.

[01:00:30] [SPEAKER_02]: But it's creating the appearance

[01:00:33] [SPEAKER_02]: of something that's not there.

[01:00:35] [SPEAKER_02]: And it's unfortunate.

[01:00:37] [SPEAKER_00]: It is unfortunate.

[01:00:38] [SPEAKER_00]: It's deeply frustrating and bizarre

[01:00:39] [SPEAKER_00]: to kind of go into it

[01:00:40] [SPEAKER_00]: and see things pretty much proceeding

[01:00:41] [SPEAKER_00]: normally at this point

[01:00:43] [SPEAKER_00]: and then step out

[01:00:44] [SPEAKER_00]: and it's like chaos.

[01:00:46] [SPEAKER_00]: Because everyone,

[01:00:46] [SPEAKER_00]: what's going on in there?

[01:00:48] [SPEAKER_00]: You know?

[01:00:48] [SPEAKER_02]: And keep in mind,

[01:00:49] [SPEAKER_02]: reporters are human beings.

[01:00:52] [SPEAKER_02]: They have reasons

[01:00:53] [SPEAKER_02]: to have negative feelings

[01:00:55] [SPEAKER_02]: towards Judge Goll.

[01:00:56] [SPEAKER_02]: And I think later this week

[01:00:57] [SPEAKER_02]: we're going to talk about

[01:00:58] [SPEAKER_02]: the press pass process.

[01:00:59] [SPEAKER_02]: And so because they've had

[01:01:01] [SPEAKER_02]: negative experiences

[01:01:02] [SPEAKER_02]: with Judge Goll,

[01:01:03] [SPEAKER_02]: I think that makes them

[01:01:04] [SPEAKER_02]: more inclined

[01:01:05] [SPEAKER_02]: to accept criticism of her

[01:01:08] [SPEAKER_02]: and maybe even reflect that

[01:01:09] [SPEAKER_02]: in their coverage.

[01:01:10] [SPEAKER_00]: And here's the thing.

[01:01:11] [SPEAKER_00]: I think the whole situation

[01:01:12] [SPEAKER_00]: and the whole way

[01:01:12] [SPEAKER_00]: it's been structured

[01:01:13] [SPEAKER_00]: is not ideal

[01:01:14] [SPEAKER_00]: to say the least.

[01:01:15] [SPEAKER_00]: But I think at the very least

[01:01:17] [SPEAKER_00]: we could get more clear directions

[01:01:19] [SPEAKER_00]: from the judge

[01:01:20] [SPEAKER_00]: in the courtroom

[01:01:21] [SPEAKER_00]: perhaps saying things like,

[01:01:22] [SPEAKER_00]: okay,

[01:01:23] [SPEAKER_00]: everyone in the gallery

[01:01:24] [SPEAKER_00]: stay seated

[01:01:26] [SPEAKER_00]: until X happens

[01:01:27] [SPEAKER_00]: and then you can get up.

[01:01:29] [SPEAKER_00]: Like,

[01:01:29] [SPEAKER_00]: work with people.

[01:01:31] [SPEAKER_00]: Give them instructions

[01:01:32] [SPEAKER_00]: on what you want them to do.

[01:01:34] [SPEAKER_00]: You know,

[01:01:35] [SPEAKER_00]: preempt any issues

[01:01:37] [SPEAKER_00]: and then deal with it.

[01:01:38] [SPEAKER_00]: And I think that would go

[01:01:40] [SPEAKER_00]: a long way.

[01:01:40] [SPEAKER_00]: The clarity

[01:01:41] [SPEAKER_00]: and the communication

[01:01:42] [SPEAKER_00]: would go a long way

[01:01:43] [SPEAKER_00]: to at least having things

[01:01:46] [SPEAKER_00]: operate as smoothly

[01:01:47] [SPEAKER_00]: as they possibly could

[01:01:48] [SPEAKER_00]: under the current process.

[01:01:51] [SPEAKER_00]: Which again

[01:01:52] [SPEAKER_00]: is not an ideal process.

[01:01:53] [SPEAKER_00]: But let's try to make,

[01:01:55] [SPEAKER_00]: like,

[01:01:55] [SPEAKER_00]: let's,

[01:01:56] [SPEAKER_00]: just yelling at people

[01:01:57] [SPEAKER_00]: and things like that

[01:01:59] [SPEAKER_00]: maybe just give some

[01:02:00] [SPEAKER_00]: clear instructions

[01:02:01] [SPEAKER_00]: because half the time

[01:02:01] [SPEAKER_00]: really people are confused

[01:02:02] [SPEAKER_00]: and they don't,

[01:02:03] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't think people

[01:02:04] [SPEAKER_00]: want to cause problems.

[01:02:05] [SPEAKER_00]: But if you're told

[01:02:08] [SPEAKER_00]: essentially you can get up

[01:02:09] [SPEAKER_00]: but you just can't come back

[01:02:10] [SPEAKER_00]: but then you're yelled at

[01:02:11] [SPEAKER_00]: for getting up

[01:02:12] [SPEAKER_00]: then that's not,

[01:02:13] [SPEAKER_00]: that's not clear.

[01:02:14] [SPEAKER_02]: And as we see

[01:02:15] [SPEAKER_02]: when we discuss

[01:02:15] [SPEAKER_02]: the press pass process

[01:02:16] [SPEAKER_02]: there were many times

[01:02:18] [SPEAKER_02]: when Ani and I

[01:02:19] [SPEAKER_02]: in particular

[01:02:19] [SPEAKER_02]: were told something

[01:02:20] [SPEAKER_02]: you can take this

[01:02:21] [SPEAKER_02]: to the bank

[01:02:22] [SPEAKER_02]: and then we couldn't

[01:02:23] [SPEAKER_02]: take it to the bank.

[01:02:24] [SPEAKER_00]: That check bounced

[01:02:27] [SPEAKER_00]: many times.

[01:02:28] [SPEAKER_02]: Is that it?

[01:02:29] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah,

[01:02:29] [SPEAKER_00]: I think that's it.

[01:02:30] [SPEAKER_00]: But anyways,

[01:02:30] [SPEAKER_00]: thanks everyone

[01:02:31] [SPEAKER_00]: for listening.

[01:02:31] [SPEAKER_00]: We appreciate it.

[01:02:32] [SPEAKER_00]: So,

[01:02:33] [SPEAKER_00]: voir dire is done.

[01:02:34] [SPEAKER_00]: What we're assuming

[01:02:35] [SPEAKER_00]: is that

[01:02:36] [SPEAKER_00]: or what we've been told

[01:02:37] [SPEAKER_00]: what we all walked out

[01:02:38] [SPEAKER_00]: thinking is that

[01:02:39] [SPEAKER_00]: there's nothing tomorrow

[01:02:40] [SPEAKER_00]: so we're not going to

[01:02:41] [SPEAKER_00]: do an episode tomorrow

[01:02:41] [SPEAKER_00]: because nothing is going on.

[01:02:43] [SPEAKER_00]: There's no court session.

[01:02:44] [SPEAKER_00]: And then Thursday

[01:02:46] [SPEAKER_00]: I guess we'll see

[01:02:47] [SPEAKER_00]: what happens.

[01:02:48] [SPEAKER_02]: If there's a court session

[01:02:49] [SPEAKER_02]: we'll tell you about it

[01:02:50] [SPEAKER_02]: and maybe talk about

[01:02:51] [SPEAKER_02]: press passes

[01:02:51] [SPEAKER_02]: and then Friday

[01:02:52] [SPEAKER_02]: in theory

[01:02:54] [SPEAKER_02]: is opening statements

[01:02:55] [SPEAKER_02]: and then Saturday

[01:02:57] [SPEAKER_02]: there might be a hearing

[01:02:58] [SPEAKER_02]: there might not be.

[01:02:59] [SPEAKER_02]: Who knows?

[01:03:00] [SPEAKER_02]: Your guess is

[01:03:00] [SPEAKER_02]: as good as ours.

[01:03:02] [SPEAKER_00]: But anyways,

[01:03:02] [SPEAKER_00]: thanks all for listening.

[01:03:04] [SPEAKER_00]: And just keep in mind

[01:03:05] [SPEAKER_00]: as we get into

[01:03:06] [SPEAKER_00]: the trial portion of this

[01:03:07] [SPEAKER_00]: you know,

[01:03:08] [SPEAKER_00]: if you're planning

[01:03:08] [SPEAKER_00]: on coming to Delphi

[01:03:09] [SPEAKER_00]: just be aware

[01:03:10] [SPEAKER_00]: it's a real community

[01:03:11] [SPEAKER_00]: real people.

[01:03:12] [SPEAKER_00]: These little girls

[01:03:13] [SPEAKER_00]: their deaths

[01:03:14] [SPEAKER_00]: had a huge impact here

[01:03:17] [SPEAKER_00]: and let's all just

[01:03:18] [SPEAKER_00]: you know,

[01:03:19] [SPEAKER_00]: just be respectful

[01:03:20] [SPEAKER_00]: of that going into

[01:03:21] [SPEAKER_00]: this community

[01:03:21] [SPEAKER_00]: that suffered

[01:03:22] [SPEAKER_00]: a profound loss

[01:03:23] [SPEAKER_00]: and is now going to

[01:03:25] [SPEAKER_00]: have to deal with

[01:03:27] [SPEAKER_00]: what may turn

[01:03:28] [SPEAKER_00]: into a circus.

[01:03:30] [SPEAKER_00]: And so yeah,

[01:03:31] [SPEAKER_00]: let's think about that.

[01:03:32] [SPEAKER_02]: Support local businesses.

[01:03:33] [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, yes.

[01:03:34] [SPEAKER_00]: And thank you very much.

[01:03:35] [SPEAKER_00]: I appreciate all of you

[01:03:37] [SPEAKER_00]: listening and yeah,

[01:03:39] [SPEAKER_00]: I guess we'll talk

[01:03:39] [SPEAKER_02]: again soon.

[01:03:40] [SPEAKER_00]: We'll talk again soon.

[01:03:42] [SPEAKER_02]: Thanks so much for

[01:03:43] [SPEAKER_02]: listening to the

[01:03:44] [SPEAKER_02]: Murder Sheet.

[01:03:45] [SPEAKER_02]: If you have a tip

[01:03:46] [SPEAKER_02]: concerning one of the

[01:03:47] [SPEAKER_02]: cases we cover,

[01:03:48] [SPEAKER_02]: please email us at

[01:03:50] [SPEAKER_02]: murdersheet

[01:03:51] [SPEAKER_02]: at gmail dot com.

[01:03:54] [SPEAKER_02]: If you have actionable

[01:03:55] [SPEAKER_02]: information about an

[01:03:57] [SPEAKER_02]: unsolved crime,

[01:03:58] [SPEAKER_02]: please report it to

[01:03:59] [SPEAKER_02]: the appropriate

[01:04:00] [SPEAKER_02]: authorities.

[01:04:02] [SPEAKER_00]: If you're interested

[01:04:04] [SPEAKER_00]: in joining our

[01:04:04] [SPEAKER_00]: Patreon,

[01:04:05] [SPEAKER_00]: that's available at

[01:04:07] [SPEAKER_00]: www.patreon.com

[01:04:10] [SPEAKER_00]: slash murdersheet.

[01:04:12] [SPEAKER_00]: If you want to tip us

[01:04:14] [SPEAKER_00]: a bit of money for

[01:04:15] [SPEAKER_00]: records requests,

[01:04:16] [SPEAKER_00]: you can do so at

[01:04:17] [SPEAKER_00]: www.buymeacoffee.com

[01:04:21] [SPEAKER_00]: slash murdersheet.

[01:04:23] [SPEAKER_00]: We very much appreciate

[01:04:24] [SPEAKER_00]: any support.

[01:04:26] [SPEAKER_02]: Special thanks to

[01:04:27] [SPEAKER_02]: Kevin Tyler Greenlee,

[01:04:29] [SPEAKER_02]: who composed the music

[01:04:30] [SPEAKER_02]: for the Murder Sheet,

[01:04:31] [SPEAKER_02]: and who you can find

[01:04:32] [SPEAKER_02]: on the web at

[01:04:34] [SPEAKER_02]: kevintg.com.

[01:04:36] [SPEAKER_00]: If you're looking to

[01:04:37] [SPEAKER_00]: talk with other

[01:04:38] [SPEAKER_00]: listeners about a case

[01:04:39] [SPEAKER_00]: we've covered,

[01:04:40] [SPEAKER_00]: you can join the

[01:04:41] [SPEAKER_00]: Murder Sheet

[01:04:42] [SPEAKER_00]: discussion group on

[01:04:43] [SPEAKER_00]: Facebook.

[01:04:44] [SPEAKER_00]: We mostly focus our

[01:04:45] [SPEAKER_00]: time on research and

[01:04:46] [SPEAKER_00]: reporting, so we're

[01:04:48] [SPEAKER_00]: not on social media

[01:04:49] [SPEAKER_00]: much.

[01:04:49] [SPEAKER_00]: We do try to check

[01:04:51] [SPEAKER_00]: our email account,

[01:04:52] [SPEAKER_00]: but we ask for

[01:04:53] [SPEAKER_00]: patience as we often

[01:04:54] [SPEAKER_00]: receive a lot of

[01:04:55] [SPEAKER_00]: messages.

[01:04:56] [SPEAKER_00]: Thanks again for

[01:04:57] [SPEAKER_00]: listening.

[01:05:00] [SPEAKER_00]: Thanks so much for

[01:05:01] [SPEAKER_00]: sticking around to the

[01:05:02] [SPEAKER_00]: end of this Murder

[01:05:03] [SPEAKER_00]: Sheet episode.

[01:05:04] [SPEAKER_00]: Just as a quick post-roll

[01:05:05] [SPEAKER_00]: ad, we wanted to tell

[01:05:07] [SPEAKER_00]: you again about our

[01:05:08] [SPEAKER_00]: friend Jason Blair's

[01:05:09] [SPEAKER_00]: wonderful Silver Linings

[01:05:11] [SPEAKER_00]: handbook.

[01:05:12] [SPEAKER_00]: This show is

[01:05:13] [SPEAKER_00]: phenomenal.

[01:05:14] [SPEAKER_00]: Whether you are

[01:05:15] [SPEAKER_00]: interested in true

[01:05:16] [SPEAKER_00]: crime, the criminal

[01:05:17] [SPEAKER_00]: justice system, law,

[01:05:18] [SPEAKER_00]: mental health, stories

[01:05:20] [SPEAKER_00]: of marginalized people,

[01:05:22] [SPEAKER_00]: overcoming tragedy,

[01:05:24] [SPEAKER_00]: well-being, like he

[01:05:25] [SPEAKER_00]: does it all.

[01:05:25] [SPEAKER_00]: This is a show for

[01:05:26] [SPEAKER_00]: you.

[01:05:27] [SPEAKER_00]: He has so many

[01:05:28] [SPEAKER_00]: different conversations

[01:05:29] [SPEAKER_00]: with interesting

[01:05:30] [SPEAKER_00]: people, people whose

[01:05:32] [SPEAKER_00]: loved ones have gone

[01:05:33] [SPEAKER_00]: missing, other

[01:05:35] [SPEAKER_00]: podcasters in the true

[01:05:36] [SPEAKER_00]: crime space, just

[01:05:38] [SPEAKER_00]: interesting people with

[01:05:40] [SPEAKER_00]: interesting life

[01:05:40] [SPEAKER_00]: experiences.

[01:05:42] [SPEAKER_00]: And Jason's gift, I

[01:05:44] [SPEAKER_00]: think, is just being an

[01:05:45] [SPEAKER_00]: incredibly empathetic and

[01:05:46] [SPEAKER_00]: compassionate interviewer

[01:05:47] [SPEAKER_00]: where he's really letting

[01:05:48] [SPEAKER_00]: his guests tell their

[01:05:49] [SPEAKER_00]: stories and asking really

[01:05:51] [SPEAKER_00]: interesting questions along

[01:05:52] [SPEAKER_00]: the way, guiding those

[01:05:54] [SPEAKER_00]: conversations forward.

[01:05:55] [SPEAKER_00]: I would liken it to like

[01:05:56] [SPEAKER_00]: you're kind of almost

[01:05:57] [SPEAKER_00]: sitting down with

[01:05:58] [SPEAKER_00]: friends and sort of just

[01:05:59] [SPEAKER_00]: hearing these fascinating

[01:06:00] [SPEAKER_00]: tales that you wouldn't

[01:06:01] [SPEAKER_00]: get otherwise because he

[01:06:03] [SPEAKER_00]: just has that ability as an

[01:06:05] [SPEAKER_00]: interviewer to tease it out

[01:06:07] [SPEAKER_00]: and really make it

[01:06:08] [SPEAKER_00]: interesting for his

[01:06:09] [SPEAKER_00]: audience.

[01:06:10] [SPEAKER_02]: On a personal level,

[01:06:11] [SPEAKER_02]: Jason is frankly a

[01:06:13] [SPEAKER_02]: great guy.

[01:06:13] [SPEAKER_02]: Yes.

[01:06:14] [SPEAKER_02]: He's been a really good

[01:06:14] [SPEAKER_02]: friend to us and so it's

[01:06:18] [SPEAKER_02]: fun to be able to hit a

[01:06:19] [SPEAKER_02]: button on my phone and get

[01:06:20] [SPEAKER_02]: a little dose of Jason

[01:06:22] [SPEAKER_02]: talking to people whenever

[01:06:23] [SPEAKER_02]: I want.

[01:06:24] [SPEAKER_02]: It's a really terrific

[01:06:25] [SPEAKER_02]: show.

[01:06:26] [SPEAKER_02]: We really recommend it

[01:06:28] [SPEAKER_02]: highly.

[01:06:28] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I think our audience

[01:06:29] [SPEAKER_00]: will like it.

[01:06:30] [SPEAKER_00]: And you've already met

[01:06:30] [SPEAKER_00]: Jason if you listen

[01:06:31] [SPEAKER_00]: consistently to our show.

[01:06:32] [SPEAKER_00]: He's been on our show a

[01:06:33] [SPEAKER_00]: couple times.

[01:06:34] [SPEAKER_00]: We've been on his show.

[01:06:35] [SPEAKER_00]: He's a terrific guest.

[01:06:37] [SPEAKER_00]: I say this in one of our

[01:06:38] [SPEAKER_00]: ads about him but I

[01:06:39] [SPEAKER_00]: literally always, I'm like,

[01:06:40] [SPEAKER_00]: oh yeah, I remember when

[01:06:41] [SPEAKER_00]: Jason said this.

[01:06:42] [SPEAKER_00]: That really resonated.

[01:06:43] [SPEAKER_00]: Like I do quote him in

[01:06:45] [SPEAKER_00]: conversations sometimes

[01:06:46] [SPEAKER_00]: because he really has a

[01:06:47] [SPEAKER_00]: good grasp of different

[01:06:48] [SPEAKER_00]: complicated issues.

[01:06:49] [SPEAKER_02]: She quotes him to me all

[01:06:50] [SPEAKER_02]: the time.

[01:06:50] [SPEAKER_00]: I do.

[01:06:50] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm like, remember when

[01:06:51] [SPEAKER_00]: Jason said this?

[01:06:52] [SPEAKER_00]: That was so right.

[01:06:52] [SPEAKER_00]: So, I mean, I think if

[01:06:54] [SPEAKER_00]: we're doing that, I think

[01:06:55] [SPEAKER_00]: and you like us, I think

[01:06:56] [SPEAKER_00]: you should give it a shot,

[01:06:57] [SPEAKER_00]: give it a try.

[01:06:58] [SPEAKER_00]: I think you'll really

[01:06:58] [SPEAKER_00]: enjoy it.

[01:06:59] [SPEAKER_00]: And again, he does a range

[01:07:00] [SPEAKER_00]: of different topics but

[01:07:01] [SPEAKER_00]: they all kind of have the

[01:07:02] [SPEAKER_00]: similar theme of compassion,

[01:07:05] [SPEAKER_00]: of overcoming suffering,

[01:07:07] [SPEAKER_00]: of dealing with

[01:07:07] [SPEAKER_00]: suffering, of mental

[01:07:08] [SPEAKER_00]: health, wellness,

[01:07:09] [SPEAKER_00]: things like that.

[01:07:10] [SPEAKER_00]: There's kind of a

[01:07:11] [SPEAKER_00]: common through line of

[01:07:12] [SPEAKER_00]: compassion and empathy

[01:07:13] [SPEAKER_00]: there that I think we

[01:07:14] [SPEAKER_00]: find very nice and we

[01:07:16] [SPEAKER_00]: work on a lot of

[01:07:17] [SPEAKER_00]: stories that can be very

[01:07:18] [SPEAKER_00]: tough and we try to

[01:07:20] [SPEAKER_00]: bring compassion and

[01:07:21] [SPEAKER_00]: empathy to it.

[01:07:21] [SPEAKER_00]: But this is something

[01:07:22] [SPEAKER_00]: that almost can be like

[01:07:23] [SPEAKER_00]: if you're kind of feeling

[01:07:24] [SPEAKER_00]: a little burned out by

[01:07:25] [SPEAKER_00]: true crime, I think this

[01:07:26] [SPEAKER_00]: is kind of the life

[01:07:26] [SPEAKER_00]: affirming stuff that

[01:07:29] [SPEAKER_00]: can be nice to listen

[01:07:30] [SPEAKER_00]: to in a podcast.

[01:07:32] [SPEAKER_02]: It's compassionate,

[01:07:34] [SPEAKER_02]: it's affirming,

[01:07:35] [SPEAKER_02]: but I also want to

[01:07:36] [SPEAKER_02]: emphasize it's smart.

[01:07:39] [SPEAKER_02]: People, Jason is a very

[01:07:41] [SPEAKER_02]: intelligent, articulate

[01:07:43] [SPEAKER_02]: person.

[01:07:43] [SPEAKER_02]: This is a smart show but

[01:07:45] [SPEAKER_02]: it's an accessible show.

[01:07:47] [SPEAKER_02]: I think you'll all

[01:07:48] [SPEAKER_02]: really enjoy it.

[01:07:49] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and he's got a

[01:07:50] [SPEAKER_00]: great community that he's

[01:07:51] [SPEAKER_00]: building so we're really

[01:07:52] [SPEAKER_00]: excited to be a part of

[01:07:53] [SPEAKER_00]: that.

[01:07:53] [SPEAKER_00]: We're fans of the show,

[01:07:54] [SPEAKER_00]: we love it and we would

[01:07:56] [SPEAKER_00]: strongly encourage you all

[01:07:57] [SPEAKER_00]: to check it out, download

[01:07:58] [SPEAKER_00]: some episodes, listen, I

[01:07:59] [SPEAKER_00]: think you'll understand what

[01:08:01] [SPEAKER_00]: we're talking about once

[01:08:02] [SPEAKER_00]: you do.

[01:08:02] [SPEAKER_00]: But anyways, you can

[01:08:03] [SPEAKER_00]: listen to The Silver

[01:08:04] [SPEAKER_00]: Linings Handbook wherever

[01:08:06] [SPEAKER_00]: you listen to podcasts.

[01:08:07] [SPEAKER_02]: Wherever you listen to

[01:08:08] [SPEAKER_02]: podcasts, very easy to

[01:08:09] [SPEAKER_02]: find.

[01:08:09] [SPEAKER_02]: Absolutely.

[01:08:10] Absolutely.