The Delphi Murders: Richard Allen on Trial: One Last Pre-Trial Hearing

[00:00:00] [SPEAKER_02]: Content Warning, this episode contains discussion of the murder of two girls.

[00:00:06] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, today was what we presume to be the final pre-trial hearing in the Richard Allen murder case.

[00:00:15] [SPEAKER_01]: And the trial itself with the opening statements is scheduled for tomorrow.

[00:00:20] [SPEAKER_01]: It was a shorter hearing, but it was an interesting hearing.

[00:00:23] [SPEAKER_01]: For one thing, for the first time this week, both James Luttrell and Stacey Diener

[00:00:29] [SPEAKER_01]: of the prosecution team spoke in court.

[00:00:32] [SPEAKER_02]: Yes.

[00:00:33] [SPEAKER_01]: So we can tell you about that and about a whole lot more.

[00:00:40] [SPEAKER_02]: My name is Anya Kane. I'm a journalist.

[00:00:43] [SPEAKER_01]: And I'm Kevin Greenlee. I'm an attorney.

[00:00:45] [SPEAKER_01]: And this is The Murder Sheet.

[00:00:47] [SPEAKER_01]: We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews, and deep dives into murder cases.

[00:00:54] [SPEAKER_01]: We're The Murder Sheet.

[00:00:56] [SPEAKER_02]: And this is The Delphi Murders, Richard Allen on Trial.

[00:01:00] [SPEAKER_02]: One last pre-trial hearing.

[00:01:52] [SPEAKER_01]: I'd like to start, if it's okay with you, Anya, by actually jumping back to before today's

[00:01:59] [SPEAKER_01]: hearing, to yesterday when I guess Judge Gull issued a couple of orders.

[00:02:07] [SPEAKER_01]: And one of those orders in particular caused a lot of confusion in some quarters.

[00:02:13] [SPEAKER_02]: Yes.

[00:02:15] [SPEAKER_02]: A lot of confusion, a very unfortunate amount of confusion.

[00:02:21] [SPEAKER_02]: So Judge Gull issued an order around an offer to prove around...

[00:02:27] [SPEAKER_01]: Offer of proof around oldenism.

[00:02:30] [SPEAKER_01]: And this made some people think that oldenism was back in the trial.

[00:02:38] [SPEAKER_01]: And it's not.

[00:02:39] [SPEAKER_01]: So let me try to explain what exactly this means.

[00:02:45] [SPEAKER_01]: As we all know, back in the three days of pre-trial hearings in July and August, the defense very badly wanted to convince Judge Gull to allow oldenism as a defense in the trial.

[00:03:02] [SPEAKER_01]: And she said no.

[00:03:04] [SPEAKER_01]: But she did say they would have an opportunity to do an offer to prove.

[00:03:08] [SPEAKER_01]: And these offers of proof are basically a way for the appeals court, should there be an appeal, to be able to evaluate the testimony that would have been offered.

[00:03:19] [SPEAKER_01]: Because it would be very hard for a lawyer to make an appeal to the courts and say, well, this testimony from Joe Smith really would have saved my case.

[00:03:31] [SPEAKER_01]: But the judge didn't allow it because then the court would say, well, what was this testimony from Joe Smith?

[00:03:36] [SPEAKER_01]: So you make these offers of proof outside the presence of the jury for the record for an appellate court potentially to look at.

[00:03:46] [SPEAKER_01]: And so what the judge did at the request of the defense in order to save time, the defense basically said, we want to just incorporate all of the testimony from that three-day pretrial hearing and make that part of our offer of proof.

[00:04:06] [SPEAKER_01]: And if you do that, if you are willing to accept this earlier testimony and the transcripts and what have you of that, that means we don't have to take a day out of the trial to bring those people in again to offer the same testimony.

[00:04:21] [SPEAKER_01]: And that's what she agreed to.

[00:04:23] [SPEAKER_01]: And so because of that, nothing really changes.

[00:04:29] [SPEAKER_01]: No.

[00:04:29] [SPEAKER_01]: And some time is saved.

[00:04:32] [SPEAKER_02]: It's just everyone showing their work essentially so the appellate court can decide, hey, Judge Gull made an error here or no, she was right to leave this out.

[00:04:40] [SPEAKER_02]: Right?

[00:04:40] [SPEAKER_02]: And it's a convenience thing.

[00:04:42] [SPEAKER_01]: It's a convenience thing because the appellate court needs to know what exactly it was she ruled was not admissible.

[00:04:50] [SPEAKER_02]: But unfortunately, the majority of journalists – and I'm not – I'm a fortunate journalist because I happen to be married to Kevin Greenlee.

[00:05:00] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm fortunate for that for many reasons.

[00:05:02] [SPEAKER_02]: But also, Kevin is a lawyer.

[00:05:04] [SPEAKER_02]: And when I read something like this and I'm confused, I can ask him and say, wait, is Odinism back in?

[00:05:10] [SPEAKER_02]: And he can say, no.

[00:05:11] [SPEAKER_02]: Read it again.

[00:05:12] [SPEAKER_02]: I could say, ah, yes.

[00:05:13] [SPEAKER_02]: Or more likely he's just going to explain it to me.

[00:05:15] [SPEAKER_02]: But a lot of journalists, they're writing things on the fly.

[00:05:19] [SPEAKER_02]: They're interpreting things.

[00:05:20] [SPEAKER_02]: They do not know how to read legal documents, which can be hard to parse sometimes and written in sort of a different language almost, the language of legalese.

[00:05:29] [SPEAKER_02]: And a lot of people misinterpreted this and then ran with it.

[00:05:34] [SPEAKER_02]: And that happens sometimes.

[00:05:36] [SPEAKER_02]: It's unfortunate.

[00:05:37] [SPEAKER_02]: It's unfortunate.

[00:05:38] [SPEAKER_02]: And it's just – people are rushing and they're trying to get information out.

[00:05:43] [SPEAKER_02]: And that happens sometimes.

[00:05:44] [SPEAKER_02]: And it's not really one person's fault.

[00:05:47] [SPEAKER_02]: It's just – it's an unfortunate occurrence, especially when you're dealing with something like this.

[00:05:51] [SPEAKER_02]: So all the headlines that you saw about Odinisms back in were not correct.

[00:05:57] [SPEAKER_02]: And that was a mistake.

[00:05:59] [SPEAKER_01]: So Judge Gull also issued another order yesterday.

[00:06:05] [SPEAKER_01]: Are we ready to move on to that?

[00:06:07] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I guess speaking of the press, yeah.

[00:06:11] [SPEAKER_01]: So also speaking of this three-day hearing, there was this three-day hearing where there was a lot of items admitted into evidence, a lot of exhibits.

[00:06:21] [SPEAKER_01]: And typically when exhibits are entered into a case, they are available for the public to view.

[00:06:30] [SPEAKER_01]: There's a public record of it.

[00:06:31] [SPEAKER_01]: And so after this hearing, some members of the press made a request to view the exhibits from this hearing.

[00:06:44] [SPEAKER_01]: This is, again, very, very standard.

[00:06:48] [SPEAKER_01]: And they made this request on – well, I'm going to read from this document that Judge Gull prepared.

[00:06:56] [SPEAKER_01]: Quote,

[00:07:29] [SPEAKER_01]: She mentioned they're needing 30 days to make these rulings about the matters that were the subject of the hearing.

[00:07:36] [SPEAKER_01]: And I indicate – I make the obvious note.

[00:07:39] [SPEAKER_01]: It's now the middle of October.

[00:07:41] [SPEAKER_01]: So she certainly has had time.

[00:07:44] [SPEAKER_01]: She's had well over 30 days to make the rulings and then take care of this request from the media to view the exhibits, which, again, is a very reasonable request.

[00:07:55] [SPEAKER_01]: She, for some reason, calls it an unreasonable request.

[00:08:00] [SPEAKER_01]: And I think that really highlights something we've been talking about lately, which is Judge Gull and her Allen County outfit or team or whatever you want to call it.

[00:08:12] [SPEAKER_01]: Not only do they – they don't take seriously any obligation to share their work with the public.

[00:08:21] [SPEAKER_01]: Pretty much any other court we've worked with, public access has been more of a priority.

[00:08:27] [SPEAKER_01]: I'd say most judges realize that it is very important that the public have access to the work they are doing because judges have an awful lot of power in our society.

[00:08:40] [SPEAKER_01]: And it is important the public get a chance to review what they're doing.

[00:08:44] [SPEAKER_01]: And law enforcement has a lot of power in this society, and it's important that we get a chance to review it.

[00:08:48] [SPEAKER_01]: So I was surprised that Judge Gull referred to this request for public access to these exhibits as unreasonable.

[00:08:55] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, the whole ticked-off tone of it really was surprising that she put that in a filing.

[00:09:00] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, it was like – I mean, I guess we're all human, right?

[00:09:03] [SPEAKER_02]: Maybe something is like, oh, they're already asking for this.

[00:09:05] [SPEAKER_02]: But, I mean, you don't have to write that.

[00:09:07] [SPEAKER_02]: You can just think that and then write a blander filing, which would probably be the smart thing to do.

[00:09:13] [SPEAKER_02]: So I guess it's just like, you know, the press has a job that is different from the judges, but I think it's also very important.

[00:09:19] [SPEAKER_02]: And the press is going to ask for things, and they're going to ask for things in a timely manner.

[00:09:23] [SPEAKER_02]: And, you know, I mean, I feel like that's just sort of the nature of being a journalist, right?

[00:09:32] [SPEAKER_02]: Like it's – you know, I mean, they're not going to be like, oh, well, let's give the judge a break, you know, a few days off.

[00:09:37] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, like you're going to ask for it right away because now you might be able to access it.

[00:09:42] [SPEAKER_02]: And to be expressing some level of anger for journalists doing their job just seems like a weird decision to put in a filing.

[00:09:53] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know why you're kind of expressing exasperation or ire about that.

[00:09:58] [SPEAKER_02]: It's the job of the press to do this.

[00:10:00] [SPEAKER_02]: And if there are good reasons to delay it or not give the press everything they want, I'm not saying you have to do that.

[00:10:07] [SPEAKER_02]: But, I mean, kind of complaining about people doing their jobs, it's just – I don't know.

[00:10:12] [SPEAKER_01]: And I would go a little bit further and say judges are educated people.

[00:10:17] [SPEAKER_01]: We would expect them to have an understanding of the importance of public access.

[00:10:23] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and again, the press – you may like the press.

[00:10:27] [SPEAKER_02]: You may hate the press.

[00:10:28] [SPEAKER_02]: You may feel ambivalent about the press.

[00:10:32] [SPEAKER_02]: It's a situation where in cases like this, the press can be a stand-in for the public because every member of the public is not going to be able to go to this trial.

[00:10:42] [SPEAKER_02]: But media reporters can and they have huge platforms on which they can broadcast information so that you can learn about what's going on.

[00:10:49] [SPEAKER_02]: So when you're making it very hard for them to do their jobs, it means that the public typically gets less information.

[00:10:57] [SPEAKER_02]: And you can beat up on the reporters.

[00:11:00] [SPEAKER_02]: You can say the reporters are bad or they're getting stuff wrong or they're doing this and that.

[00:11:04] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, okay, fine.

[00:11:05] [SPEAKER_02]: But at the end of the day, it means when they're getting kind of treated like this and things are not given to them, then it's not just affecting them.

[00:11:17] [SPEAKER_02]: It's sort of –

[00:11:18] [SPEAKER_01]: Affecting all of you.

[00:11:20] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, affects the public.

[00:11:21] [SPEAKER_01]: I'd like to read the next paragraph and make a couple quick points about it.

[00:11:24] [SPEAKER_01]: Again, this is from an order from Judge Fran Gull.

[00:11:30] [SPEAKER_01]: Quote,

[00:11:31] [SPEAKER_01]: The court would note that this murder case is one of over 300 pending cases on this court's docket, with approximately 30 of those cases being murder cases.

[00:11:40] [SPEAKER_01]: The court and the court reporter have worked into the evenings and on the weekends to comply with the demands made by the media.

[00:11:48] [SPEAKER_01]: So, first of all, she says the first sentence – there's an element of self-pity in here, it seems to me.

[00:11:55] [SPEAKER_01]: The first sentence basically seems to suggest that I'm working so hard on these other cases, you shouldn't expect me to fulfill my basic requirements on this one.

[00:12:06] [SPEAKER_01]: And to that, I don't find that a compelling argument for many reasons, one of which is that the Indiana Supreme Court has indicated that they are willing to give Judge Gull whatever help she needs with her caseload so she can adequately manage this.

[00:12:23] [SPEAKER_01]: So this is – and if she – even with that help, if she finds it too much that she's not able to fulfill her basic obligations to the public, maybe another judge should have been found.

[00:12:33] [SPEAKER_01]: And secondly, she says that she and her court reporter have been working so hard to comply with the demands made by the media.

[00:12:41] [SPEAKER_01]: We will get into this a little bit later, but I want to say that no one in the media feels like Judge Gull and her team has been responsive to their request for public access.

[00:12:53] [SPEAKER_02]: No, no.

[00:12:53] [SPEAKER_01]: So I don't think anyone feels that she and her team have been working into the night to comply with demands.

[00:13:00] [SPEAKER_02]: Speaking to journalists who are covering this case, that is pretty – that's pretty much a consensus that this is an unusually restrictive case in terms of media access.

[00:13:09] [SPEAKER_02]: No one's talking about, wow, this has been great.

[00:13:12] [SPEAKER_02]: You know, we're really getting a lot of consideration here.

[00:13:16] [SPEAKER_02]: And, you know, I understand from a human level why one would feel overwhelmed dealing with suddenly such a high-profile case, all this attention, all these media requests.

[00:13:26] [SPEAKER_02]: That's a lot.

[00:13:27] [SPEAKER_02]: That's a lot.

[00:13:27] [SPEAKER_02]: But first of all, you can have feelings and then not put them in your motions.

[00:13:31] [SPEAKER_02]: And you can also, as Kevin said, do something else.

[00:13:37] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes.

[00:13:38] [SPEAKER_02]: So.

[00:13:39] [SPEAKER_01]: I really – I don't want to say that.

[00:13:42] [SPEAKER_01]: Let's move on.

[00:13:43] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, let's move on.

[00:13:45] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to skip a couple of paragraphs.

[00:13:49] [SPEAKER_01]: The court has – quote, the court has obtained the services of a senior judge to supervise the review of these exhibits to make them accessible to the media.

[00:13:57] [SPEAKER_01]: This judge has indicated she will make the exhibits available to the media on Tuesday, October 22, 2024 at 10 a.m.

[00:14:05] [SPEAKER_01]: at a location in the Allen County Courthouse located in Fort Wayne, Indiana, end quote.

[00:14:10] [SPEAKER_02]: Interesting timing.

[00:14:11] [SPEAKER_01]: So basically, the people who would be most able to understand and appreciate what the significance of those exhibits will be in Delphi that day at the trial.

[00:14:25] [SPEAKER_01]: And she is making those pretrial exhibits available in Fort Wayne a couple of hours away.

[00:14:33] [SPEAKER_01]: That doesn't really seem terribly helpful.

[00:14:36] [SPEAKER_01]: The last sentence, quote, the media is also demanding access to the exhibits which will be introduced at the trial commencing October 18, 2024 to November 15, 2024.

[00:14:48] [SPEAKER_01]: At the conclusion of each trial day, the court will allow the media access to those exhibits for 15 minutes, end quote.

[00:14:55] [SPEAKER_02]: As true crime podcasters, we know that conversations with those in pain can bring about empowerment, clarity, and catharsis.

[00:15:02] [SPEAKER_01]: That's why we are so excited to introduce our newest sponsor, the Silver Linings Handbook with Jason Blair.

[00:15:10] [SPEAKER_01]: This is a show where our friend Jason interviews interesting people to talk about topics as varied as law, the criminal justice system, mental health, and a lot more.

[00:15:20] [SPEAKER_02]: You probably recognize Jason's name because we've been on Silver Linings Handbook before, and he's been on the murder sheet.

[00:15:27] [SPEAKER_02]: He's one of our best friends in true crime.

[00:15:28] [SPEAKER_02]: He's incredibly thoughtful and compassionate about the way he approaches topics and is always reminding us to seek out the bright side of true crime, the type of true crime that helps survivors and raises public awareness of important issues.

[00:15:41] [SPEAKER_01]: And he brings that same compassion to his own show.

[00:15:45] [SPEAKER_01]: When I listen to the Silver Linings Handbook, I feel like I'm sitting in on an important conversation with a fascinating person.

[00:15:52] [SPEAKER_01]: These shows can be fun, poignant, and unexpected, but it is all authentic, non-scripted conversations about the stuff in life that really matters.

[00:16:02] [SPEAKER_01]: By the end of an episode, I often feel inspired to think about my own life in a different way.

[00:16:07] [SPEAKER_02]: Jason knows what it's like to rebuild one's life and work on putting well-being and mental health first.

[00:16:12] [SPEAKER_02]: His life experiences have helped him shape into a truly empathetic person.

[00:16:16] [SPEAKER_02]: We really think our audience will enjoy his excellent program as much as we do.

[00:16:20] [SPEAKER_02]: It's a really uplifting podcast that embraces hope without shying away from the serious, troubling stories.

[00:16:26] [SPEAKER_01]: Subscribe to the Silver Linings Handbook wherever you listen to podcasts.

[00:16:34] [SPEAKER_02]: You know what it reminds me of, Kevin?

[00:16:36] [SPEAKER_02]: People sometimes get mad at journalists for requesting a comment.

[00:16:39] [SPEAKER_02]: You know, it's like you might be doing a story that could be perceived as negative of someone on somebody, and you reach out to them and say, I'd like to give you a chance to comment.

[00:16:48] [SPEAKER_02]: And, you know, it's not pleasant to have a negative story done on you, right?

[00:16:51] [SPEAKER_02]: But ultimately, the journalist is doing their job, and the journalist is actually doing their job by contacting you to say, I want your side of the story so I can incorporate that and be fair.

[00:17:01] [SPEAKER_02]: And, like, people complain and get mad about it, and it's just like that's just part of the job.

[00:17:07] [SPEAKER_02]: And, in fact, it's a good thing to get both sides.

[00:17:11] [SPEAKER_02]: And it's like this feels like, you know, she's complaining that the press wants access to the exhibits.

[00:17:17] [SPEAKER_02]: That's their job, A.

[00:17:18] [SPEAKER_02]: And, B, enhancing the public understanding of the case is a positive thing, okay?

[00:17:23] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, like, I don't understand why there's this disconnect where it seems to be that essentially everyone interested in the case is lumped together as a big nuisance.

[00:17:36] [SPEAKER_02]: When, in fact, if you have responsible journalists reporting on the case, that can help tamp down some of the conspiracy theorists that we've seen cause a lot of problems.

[00:17:45] [SPEAKER_02]: Yes.

[00:17:46] [SPEAKER_02]: So, you know, it's like, but instead it's like everybody's a problem, and I don't think that's fair, and I don't think it's good for public access.

[00:17:54] [SPEAKER_01]: And she's treating people who want public access like they are kindergartners making demands.

[00:18:00] [SPEAKER_01]: I think this sort of thing makes the legal system in Indiana look really, really awful in the eyes of the world.

[00:18:08] [SPEAKER_02]: Also, I want to just stress, ask any Indiana reporter who's covered crime.

[00:18:14] [SPEAKER_02]: This is not something that I've seen in Indiana before.

[00:18:18] [SPEAKER_02]: This is not something I think is an Indiana thing.

[00:18:21] [SPEAKER_02]: This may be an Allen County thing, but it's certainly, seemingly in this situation, a Judge Gill thing.

[00:18:26] [SPEAKER_02]: So, like, I don't want people to, you know, I mean, geez, I think back daily to our experience with the Keg and Kline case with the pretrial hearings in Judge Timothy Sparrow's courtroom.

[00:18:39] [SPEAKER_02]: And, you know, gosh, he had a media section.

[00:18:42] [SPEAKER_02]: He was, you know, explaining everything.

[00:18:44] [SPEAKER_02]: He had decorum orders.

[00:18:45] [SPEAKER_02]: It was all very clear-cut and accessible, and we appreciated that, and I think other people appreciated that, too.

[00:18:51] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, that's – I don't think there's typically this level of, frankly, what feels like at times hostility to the media.

[00:18:58] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, more than at times.

[00:19:01] [SPEAKER_01]: If you talk to reporters covering this case, it feels like every one of them has some kind of a horror story about their dealings with Judge Gill.

[00:19:13] [SPEAKER_01]: And we think at this time, maybe we should give you ours.

[00:19:18] [SPEAKER_01]: And as you hear this story, just keep in mind we're telling it because it's our story.

[00:19:25] [SPEAKER_01]: But a lot of people have had bad experiences with Judge Gill, and a lot of people are frustrated by the lack of public access and transparency.

[00:19:33] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:19:34] [SPEAKER_01]: And a lot of people are upset by the conflicting messages sent by this judge, conflicting messages even on trivial things.

[00:19:42] [SPEAKER_01]: The judge has said in the courtroom, if you want to leave to go to the restroom, you can, just you're not allowed back in.

[00:19:50] [SPEAKER_01]: And then she will yell often at people who stand up to go.

[00:19:53] [SPEAKER_02]: Especially towards the end.

[00:19:55] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, when you say yell often, there's two instances that have happened.

[00:19:59] [SPEAKER_02]: So let's clarify that.

[00:20:01] [SPEAKER_02]: There's two instances, both that happened at the end of court that day.

[00:20:06] [SPEAKER_02]: But it's like, if it's okay to do normally, like, there's no clear directions often given at the end where I can understand if she wanted to say, hey, everyone in the gallery, sit down, let the jury out first.

[00:20:16] [SPEAKER_02]: Or, you know, something like that.

[00:20:18] [SPEAKER_02]: Like, but, you know, don't tell people it's generally okay to get up as long as you don't come back, but then get mad when people get up at the end because they think it's over.

[00:20:25] [SPEAKER_02]: Like, giving clear instructions would be the way to deal with that.

[00:20:29] [SPEAKER_02]: But I think it's important to clarify.

[00:20:31] [SPEAKER_02]: It's not like there's constant screaming matches.

[00:20:34] [SPEAKER_02]: But it has been troubling because I just feel like that's something that people don't – I don't think people generally want to get in trouble or cause a problem in most cases.

[00:20:45] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm sure in some.

[00:20:46] [SPEAKER_02]: Maybe that's not true.

[00:20:47] [SPEAKER_02]: But I think it's better to just explain things, explain what you want people to do, and then act accordingly.

[00:20:52] [SPEAKER_02]: It does feel inconsistent to say it's generally okay to get up.

[00:20:54] [SPEAKER_02]: But, you know, maybe you could say at the end just stay seated until I, you know, say courts dismissed or whatever.

[00:21:01] [SPEAKER_02]: I want to say also we want to talk about this because it's our experience, but also because to me it's one of those things where if it just happened to us and everything else seemed fine, I don't think we'd talk about it because it would just be like, well, maybe we just have really bad luck.

[00:21:15] [SPEAKER_02]: But because we feel it ties into some of these media public access goings on, we felt we needed to say something because we can attest to some of this firsthand even if our experience is a little bit different than everybody else's.

[00:21:32] [SPEAKER_02]: And I just want to say also, you know, I think we're going to talk about this today.

[00:21:37] [SPEAKER_02]: And then I think we're going to probably not talk about it for a while or at least only allude to it because I want to keep the focus of our trial coverage on the trial, not on the media or the public access issues.

[00:21:50] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, those can we could probably talk about them in even more depth at another time.

[00:21:54] [SPEAKER_02]: But I really want the facts on this case.

[00:21:56] [SPEAKER_01]: I do, too.

[00:21:57] [SPEAKER_01]: We're going to do our best to get in every day.

[00:21:59] [SPEAKER_01]: I think that's where the focus should be now.

[00:22:02] [SPEAKER_01]: With that said, I feel very strong feelings about this and I have a lot to say about it.

[00:22:10] [SPEAKER_01]: And I will do that after the trial is over.

[00:22:13] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, that's fair.

[00:22:14] [SPEAKER_02]: And, you know, it'll be, I think, maybe, I don't know.

[00:22:18] [SPEAKER_02]: I feel like there's a lot of textbooks to be written on this case about what not to do in certain instances.

[00:22:22] [SPEAKER_02]: And I think in terms of a courthouse, a courtroom, handling that, handling a high profile case, there's definitely a lot to be said.

[00:22:30] [SPEAKER_02]: And yeah.

[00:22:32] [SPEAKER_01]: So this story involves trespasses.

[00:22:36] [SPEAKER_01]: Anya and I have been covering this case for a while.

[00:22:39] [SPEAKER_01]: I think, frankly, we've done some great coverage.

[00:22:42] [SPEAKER_02]: I think we've broken a lot of different stories.

[00:22:44] [SPEAKER_02]: Our reports have been cited in local media and regional media and national, international media.

[00:22:50] [SPEAKER_02]: We're frequently called upon as experts on different programs.

[00:22:53] [SPEAKER_02]: I feel like the fact that we've been cited widely in the media is a testament to the credibility and the strength of our reporting.

[00:23:00] [SPEAKER_02]: And the fact that we are doing journalism.

[00:23:03] [SPEAKER_02]: We're journalists with a podcast.

[00:23:05] [SPEAKER_02]: A podcast is our platform.

[00:23:07] [SPEAKER_02]: But we are ultimately vetting things with multiple sources, seeking out documents, reporting on things, getting things corroborated.

[00:23:16] [SPEAKER_02]: We filed into the case at one point in order to get a bunch of documents released.

[00:23:21] [SPEAKER_02]: We've really tried to be committed to the fundamentals of journalism throughout this process.

[00:23:25] [SPEAKER_01]: And the Indiana Supreme Court recognized that and they gave us press credentials back in January.

[00:23:32] [SPEAKER_01]: So we applied for press credentials for this trial and Judge Gull denied it.

[00:23:41] [SPEAKER_01]: And she denied it because she felt that a podcast didn't count as press.

[00:23:49] [SPEAKER_02]: And we strongly disagreed with that because we'd also been credentialed by the Indiana Supreme Court.

[00:23:55] [SPEAKER_02]: And they thought our argument that we were an outlet and we were, you know, publishing and we could qualify as some sort of periodical.

[00:24:05] [SPEAKER_02]: They took that seriously.

[00:24:06] [SPEAKER_02]: But we also do know it's up to the judge typically.

[00:24:09] [SPEAKER_02]: These are not like statewide decisions.

[00:24:11] [SPEAKER_02]: These are local matters.

[00:24:12] [SPEAKER_02]: So even though we strongly disagreed, we understood.

[00:24:15] [SPEAKER_02]: And we sort of expected this.

[00:24:18] [SPEAKER_02]: We kind of – we weren't surprised when we got denied outright and we said, okay, you know.

[00:24:22] [SPEAKER_01]: And you say it's up to the judge.

[00:24:24] [SPEAKER_01]: But I will note and I'll note this again that many times in the orders the judge filed about this.

[00:24:30] [SPEAKER_01]: She indicated that the decision and the process would be made by the media.

[00:24:35] [SPEAKER_01]: And she did not want to be involved.

[00:24:36] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, I'm talking about like when we're talking about who's considered media in Indiana.

[00:24:39] [SPEAKER_02]: It's typically up to the judge or, you know, whatever judge in the county.

[00:24:43] [SPEAKER_02]: So if the judge finds a local podcaster to be credible media, they might say, yeah, you are media.

[00:24:50] [SPEAKER_02]: And if not, then, well, then you're out of luck.

[00:24:52] [SPEAKER_01]: So we disagreed with her decision but we –

[00:24:55] [SPEAKER_01]: We understood it.

[00:24:56] [SPEAKER_01]: Accepted it.

[00:24:56] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, we accepted it.

[00:24:57] [SPEAKER_01]: So the next thing that happened was we got an opportunity to work with a magazine publisher.

[00:25:05] [SPEAKER_01]: And a magazine publisher counts under the Indiana statute as media.

[00:25:10] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:25:11] [SPEAKER_01]: So we reached out to Judge Goal, assigned this process for some reason to a person who has no experience whatsoever with media.

[00:25:22] [SPEAKER_02]: Nope.

[00:25:23] [SPEAKER_01]: Don't know why she picked him.

[00:25:25] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm not sure he knows why he was picked.

[00:25:28] [SPEAKER_01]: But he looked at that.

[00:25:30] [SPEAKER_01]: He looked at the credentials we got, that these people were interested in working with us.

[00:25:34] [SPEAKER_01]: And he said, this counts.

[00:25:35] [SPEAKER_01]: You are eligible for these press passes.

[00:25:39] [SPEAKER_01]: So great news.

[00:25:40] [SPEAKER_02]: We're back in.

[00:25:41] [SPEAKER_01]: We're back in.

[00:25:42] [SPEAKER_02]: We're so back.

[00:25:44] [SPEAKER_01]: And then the press passes at this time were to be distributed on a first-come, first-served basis on a Friday morning.

[00:25:52] [SPEAKER_01]: So on Thursday morning at about 9.30, we get an email from this character.

[00:26:01] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, first of all, let me say that when we were writing back and forth with this person who works with Judge Goal about the podcast issue, we said, we don't know if Judge Goal will consider a podcast as media.

[00:26:15] [SPEAKER_01]: And he said, well, no problem.

[00:26:18] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm in really steady contact with Judge Goal, and I'll just ask her.

[00:26:22] [SPEAKER_01]: So he's working very closely with Judge Goal.

[00:26:25] [SPEAKER_01]: So back to the story.

[00:26:27] [SPEAKER_01]: On the Thursday before the press passes were to be distributed, he wrote to us a very short, terse email where he said, on second thought, this magazine that wanted to work with us, they didn't count under the statute, even though they plainly did.

[00:26:45] [SPEAKER_01]: A magazine publishing regularly counts.

[00:26:48] [SPEAKER_02]: It's print.

[00:26:49] [SPEAKER_02]: It's printed out.

[00:26:50] [SPEAKER_02]: That's in the statute.

[00:26:51] [SPEAKER_01]: So we said, we wrote back, why doesn't this count?

[00:26:56] [SPEAKER_01]: And he never deigned to reply.

[00:27:00] [SPEAKER_01]: So then we decided, well, we really want these press credentials.

[00:27:05] [SPEAKER_01]: And so we made some phone calls.

[00:27:07] [SPEAKER_01]: We had a good relationship with the Franklin Daily Journal, which is an excellent paper.

[00:27:11] [SPEAKER_02]: Excellent paper.

[00:27:12] [SPEAKER_01]: Excellent paper.

[00:27:13] [SPEAKER_01]: And they said, well, you know, guys, we'd love to have you cover it for us.

[00:27:16] [SPEAKER_01]: And, of course, we're a daily newspaper.

[00:27:18] [SPEAKER_01]: That's obviously covered by this statute.

[00:27:23] [SPEAKER_01]: And so we said, that's great.

[00:27:25] [SPEAKER_01]: And we wrote to this person that Judge Goal picked to handle it.

[00:27:30] [SPEAKER_01]: And we wrote him, I believe, at 11.24 a.m., about two hours after he nixed us for no good reason.

[00:27:37] [SPEAKER_02]: And made a request saying, we're going to be requesting again, but with a different outlet.

[00:27:42] [SPEAKER_02]: And this is a newspaper based in Indiana.

[00:27:44] [SPEAKER_01]: And it's called the Franklin Daily Journal.

[00:27:45] [SPEAKER_01]: And he wrote back and said, that's great.

[00:27:47] [SPEAKER_01]: That counts.

[00:27:49] [SPEAKER_01]: You're in.

[00:27:50] [SPEAKER_01]: And then a couple hours later, he wrote back and said, oh, by the way, it's no longer going to be first come, first served.

[00:27:55] [SPEAKER_01]: It's going to be a lottery.

[00:27:57] [SPEAKER_02]: And we were like, what?

[00:27:57] [SPEAKER_01]: And we said, why are you making this change?

[00:27:59] [SPEAKER_01]: He says, ah.

[00:28:00] [SPEAKER_02]: It's fairer this way.

[00:28:01] [SPEAKER_02]: Okay.

[00:28:02] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, whatever.

[00:28:02] [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.

[00:28:04] [SPEAKER_01]: So then we have cleared our schedule and made plans to go on this Friday to Fort Wayne to get these press passes.

[00:28:11] [SPEAKER_01]: And that morning, he sends us an email that says, no, you were supposed to get your request in by noon the previous day.

[00:28:22] [SPEAKER_01]: And you didn't do that.

[00:28:23] [SPEAKER_01]: So you don't count.

[00:28:24] [SPEAKER_01]: You're not good enough to get this press pass.

[00:28:27] [SPEAKER_01]: And again, we had actually made their request at 1124 before noon.

[00:28:32] [SPEAKER_01]: So he's out and out.

[00:28:34] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, I mean, he said basically that the editor of the – basically blamed like, well, the editor didn't email me before noon.

[00:28:42] [SPEAKER_02]: But he had already told us we were in.

[00:28:43] [SPEAKER_02]: And I took it that we needed to make a request on behalf.

[00:28:47] [SPEAKER_02]: It just – it seemed thin.

[00:28:49] [SPEAKER_01]: It seemed to be a situation where they were trying hard.

[00:28:53] [SPEAKER_01]: It seemed to be a situation to me – I'm going to phrase this carefully – where this person was making decisions he thought were rational and common sense.

[00:29:02] [SPEAKER_01]: And then someone else was telling him no and trying to find reasons to exclude him.

[00:29:07] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it seemed like a lot of searching for pretext, frankly.

[00:29:10] [SPEAKER_02]: And, you know, from there we were like, okay, well, we're not going to get any.

[00:29:13] [SPEAKER_02]: But, I mean, we're still working with the Franklin Daily Journal.

[00:29:15] [SPEAKER_02]: So, I mean, we're doing some articles for them.

[00:29:16] [SPEAKER_02]: It's exciting.

[00:29:17] [SPEAKER_02]: I enjoy writing them.

[00:29:18] [SPEAKER_02]: And again, it's a great paper.

[00:29:19] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and you should check those out, by the way.

[00:29:20] [SPEAKER_02]: Just like we're still going to do that throughout this whole trial.

[00:29:23] [SPEAKER_02]: We're going to do the podcast but also do some articles because the Franklin Daily Journal is the paper where two of the attorney – two of the six attorneys based in this case are from Franklin, Indiana.

[00:29:35] [SPEAKER_02]: They practice there.

[00:29:36] [SPEAKER_02]: They're well-known there.

[00:29:37] [SPEAKER_02]: This is a hometown story for them.

[00:29:39] [SPEAKER_01]: So it's very legitimate.

[00:29:41] [SPEAKER_02]: We will be working hard to get them the coverage that they deserve.

[00:29:44] [SPEAKER_01]: So back to the story.

[00:29:46] [SPEAKER_01]: I think it was yesterday.

[00:29:54] [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.

[00:29:56] [SPEAKER_01]: basically this press pass up this press pass process i'm washing my hands of it the press

[00:30:04] [SPEAKER_01]: passes that we didn't get by the way were for jury selection the press passes for the trial yeah

[00:30:08] [SPEAKER_02]: let's explain that because people are confused okay so jury selection five press passes to any

[00:30:13] [SPEAKER_02]: number of outlets that was chosen through a lottery we missed out on that as described

[00:30:17] [SPEAKER_02]: there were supposed to also be 12 press passes distributed for trial and those were divided

[00:30:22] [SPEAKER_02]: into a couple of different categories based on um print versus radio versus television um and and

[00:30:29] [SPEAKER_02]: it's it's more complicated than that but that's all you need to know there were two there's supposed

[00:30:33] [SPEAKER_01]: to be two separate lotteries so the jury selection one was the one we weren't eligible for now judge

[00:30:40] [SPEAKER_01]: goal is saying this thing about press passes for the trial itself i'm just basically washing my hands

[00:30:47] [SPEAKER_01]: of it i'm letting uh this professional person who knows about the media who works at wthr i'm letting

[00:30:54] [SPEAKER_01]: this person handle it and make her own decisions and so we reached out to that person and that person uh

[00:31:00] [SPEAKER_01]: by the way very kind professional responsive responsive competent kind wonderful a person who

[00:31:09] [SPEAKER_01]: gives you answers and sticks by them and this person said you obviously count as media uh the franklin

[00:31:18] [SPEAKER_01]: daily journal obviously deserves to have representatives there so as far as i'm concerned you're in

[00:31:23] [SPEAKER_01]: but keep in mind judge goal has the right to remove you and so this morning we before the press passes

[00:31:34] [SPEAKER_01]: were issued uh i won't go into too much detail but we learned that judge goal herself personally

[00:31:41] [SPEAKER_01]: intervened to make it possible that for the franklin daily journal and for us not to receive press passes

[00:31:48] [SPEAKER_01]: and i want to just say i find it disturbing that uh a judge who has all sorts of outstanding

[00:31:58] [SPEAKER_01]: motions on her desk and who as she mentioned in her order has all these other cases that she is taking

[00:32:06] [SPEAKER_01]: the time to personally decide which press outlets she wants to include and more importantly which press

[00:32:14] [SPEAKER_01]: outlets she wants to exclude uh i could speculate about why she wants to exclude us but maybe that that

[00:32:21] [SPEAKER_01]: we can do that after the trial uh but i find it disturbing and i don't find it to be a good use of

[00:32:29] [SPEAKER_02]: the power of a judge yeah i mean it was pretty surprising but maybe i guess i wasn't surprised at

[00:32:35] [SPEAKER_02]: this point but it was it was an experience and it's not lost on either of us that in an email judge

[00:32:43] [SPEAKER_02]: goal once said based on what seemed to be some kind of very dire misunderstanding of the leak that occurred

[00:32:49] [SPEAKER_01]: a year ago that we should be put in jail and that was based on her having a total misunderstanding of

[00:32:58] [SPEAKER_01]: the facts a misunderstanding so great that rather than being angry with her i was almost embarrassed

[00:33:06] [SPEAKER_01]: for her because it showed how little she understood about the actual facts of a trial she was running

[00:33:13] [SPEAKER_01]: or a case she was running at that point uh never heard from her since if she regrets those words

[00:33:20] [SPEAKER_01]: or if she stands by them but they they reflected the fact that she didn't know what she was talking

[00:33:26] [SPEAKER_01]: about and i know since then some people have told us they tried to explain to her the actual facts i'm

[00:33:32] [SPEAKER_02]: not sure if that message ever sank well i think we have our answer now and i i'm just going to say

[00:33:38] [SPEAKER_02]: yeah this this has been this has been eye-opening and to be clear in case you're wondering well how

[00:33:43] [SPEAKER_02]: did other people feel about you guys joining the press pool all the journalists we talked to we talked

[00:33:48] [SPEAKER_02]: to a lot of them we talked to people in print and newspapers all all sorts of things they were very

[00:33:52] [SPEAKER_01]: welcoming very kind very accepting people were very happy we were included yeah we didn't hear any

[00:33:58] [SPEAKER_02]: complaints i mean we were kind of worried we're like maybe people are gonna be mad because we're gonna

[00:34:01] [SPEAKER_01]: be taking a seat but nope people earlier were frustrated that we had been left out well you know some

[00:34:06] [SPEAKER_02]: people were i'm sure some people might have been like well that means i might have a bigger chance

[00:34:10] [SPEAKER_02]: of getting in more days but the thing is like nobody was like oh my god keep them out you know

[00:34:15] [SPEAKER_02]: like like it was it was very welcoming it was very i think people understand that like we've we've helped

[00:34:21] [SPEAKER_02]: move this story forward again and again so i mean i think a lot of the people whose stories you see

[00:34:27] [SPEAKER_01]: on television or read we've talked to sometimes they have questions about the case so they know us they

[00:34:33] [SPEAKER_02]: respect and they also know the franklin daily journal and they think they deserve a seat

[00:34:36] [SPEAKER_01]: at the table and yeah i find it disturbing too that judge gold didn't stand by the words of her uh

[00:34:42] [SPEAKER_01]: order because she indicated that this process would be run by the media and the media decided they

[00:34:47] [SPEAKER_01]: wanted us to be a part of the team and judge gold did not stand by her words she intervened in the

[00:34:53] [SPEAKER_02]: process so the way that this is works is by the way just like you know every you know every couple

[00:34:57] [SPEAKER_02]: of days they'll kind of rotate people in and out of the media seats so nobody's gonna get to cover

[00:35:03] [SPEAKER_02]: the whole thing through that way it's gonna just be a rotation any other days people will have to stand

[00:35:07] [SPEAKER_02]: in line so um you know we're missing out on that but we plan to just continue to hit it from the public

[00:35:13] [SPEAKER_02]: angle and that's what we're gonna do but i i think given all that's happened with the media and frankly

[00:35:22] [SPEAKER_02]: the way the press has been treated um in this situation a way the public access in general has been

[00:35:27] [SPEAKER_02]: treated we felt it was important to let you know what happened with us because it's been a pretty

[00:35:35] [SPEAKER_02]: surprising road that i mean to be honest in the beginning i was like well we're a podcast we're

[00:35:40] [SPEAKER_02]: not going to get credentialed and and i was okay with that to a certain extent like i accepted that

[00:35:45] [SPEAKER_02]: i guess i you know i wanted to try hard i didn't want to just say like well we're not we're just going

[00:35:50] [SPEAKER_02]: to give up now because i like to try hard about things i care about and i felt like on some level we

[00:35:54] [SPEAKER_02]: deserved something i felt like on some level we could do some cool opportunities even if we had

[00:35:58] [SPEAKER_02]: to work with a print outfit to get there but i felt like you know this could be this could be good and

[00:36:05] [SPEAKER_02]: it was disheartening not because we not because necessarily the outcome because i expected that

[00:36:10] [SPEAKER_02]: it was just the process felt very very arbitrary random and we were frequently being told yes yes yes

[00:36:18] [SPEAKER_02]: you're definitely in just kidding and it that yo-yoing it just you know this was like two weeks

[00:36:25] [SPEAKER_02]: of our lives we spent a lot of time on this but it's like but it's like you know it's like why

[00:36:29] [SPEAKER_02]: because it felt like it was arbitrarily coming from the judge and i guess i just don't feel like

[00:36:36] [SPEAKER_01]: that's a good use of a judge's time it's a very poor use of her time uh what happened and the way we

[00:36:42] [SPEAKER_01]: treated by uh the allen county outfit was deeply unprofessional and i think it was a violation of

[00:36:50] [SPEAKER_01]: some of our first amendment rights i don't think a judge has any business deciding who can or cannot

[00:36:56] [SPEAKER_02]: cover also the goal posts moved several fields because it started off you cannot represent a podcast

[00:37:03] [SPEAKER_02]: okay fine that's that that's let's say that's a principled stance fine then it turned into well you

[00:37:10] [SPEAKER_02]: can't even have any remote associations with a podcast even if you're working with a print

[00:37:14] [SPEAKER_02]: outlet be it a magazine or so it's like well i i hope any of the other journalists in line who

[00:37:19] [SPEAKER_02]: who have done podcasts or were part of her i mean like hide your podcast because i mean if she finds

[00:37:24] [SPEAKER_02]: out maybe you're gonna get nuked too except you won't because i think there's there's something going

[00:37:29] [SPEAKER_01]: on here but anyway yeah uh so i mean not i'll be blunt i think this is a real misuse uh of power i think

[00:37:35] [SPEAKER_01]: it's an abuse of power not just as it comes as it affects us but as if as it affects all the

[00:37:42] [SPEAKER_01]: reporters covering this case and as it ultimately affects the public yeah because this is also there

[00:37:48] [SPEAKER_01]: are poor benighted souls out there who don't even listen to us but are interested in the case and maybe

[00:37:54] [SPEAKER_01]: they have their favorite outlets and those outlets maybe they deserve a place there too i i here's the

[00:38:00] [SPEAKER_02]: thing the scarcity is frankly just an artifice you you they allen county acts like they it it's behaving

[00:38:11] [SPEAKER_02]: like a county that was asked to handle this a week ago and they threw something together and it's the

[00:38:15] [SPEAKER_02]: best thing they can do i'm sorry i can't we can't get to everyone we're just trying our best no they've

[00:38:19] [SPEAKER_02]: had this they've known this is coming for months and they've seemingly done nothing to prepare and here's

[00:38:25] [SPEAKER_02]: what i would have done and i'm gonna i'm i don't think it's monday morning quarterback i just think

[00:38:29] [SPEAKER_02]: it's like common sense at this point you know they have the ability they should have had the ability

[00:38:35] [SPEAKER_02]: to set up a streaming situation where they could stream to a separate room that could contain media

[00:38:40] [SPEAKER_02]: you're the benefits of that okay and again this like we all wanted cameras in courtrooms but forget that

[00:38:46] [SPEAKER_02]: you can still have good access even if you don't do that set up a media room have it be like

[00:38:53] [SPEAKER_02]: like as many outlets as you see fit can come in and out they can they can type they can talk they

[00:38:59] [SPEAKER_02]: can be on their phone to their editor they can step outside and do a live broadcast without disrupting

[00:39:04] [SPEAKER_02]: people in the actual courtroom it's keeping everything separate but they're able to view things

[00:39:08] [SPEAKER_02]: and really take things in and understand them and not be rushed and not be penalized for getting up

[00:39:13] [SPEAKER_02]: and doing their jobs outside there's that that would have been the way to handle it that way basically

[00:39:18] [SPEAKER_01]: everyone could get in and maybe even members of the public could get in hell you could you could say

[00:39:22] [SPEAKER_02]: murder sheets not invited to that even if they're with the franklin daily journal and like i would still

[00:39:26] [SPEAKER_02]: be so much happier about this situation because i'd be like okay well maybe she had an issue with us but

[00:39:30] [SPEAKER_02]: at least everyone else is getting what they need and we're having good public access i would be willing

[00:39:36] [SPEAKER_02]: to write off what happened with us as a weird aberration maybe a misunderstanding maybe just

[00:39:41] [SPEAKER_02]: overly stringent whatever but it's i feel like it's all symptoms of the same issue of lack of care

[00:39:49] [SPEAKER_02]: around public access yes and and and no leadership but a strange amount of specific involvement yes uh i

[00:39:58] [SPEAKER_01]: have pretty strong feelings about this and i look forward to uh sharing them all with you but i will

[00:40:05] [SPEAKER_01]: suffice to say i think what judge gull has done in this case uh is an abuse of power and it's also a misuse

[00:40:12] [SPEAKER_01]: of her time maybe she would have more time for all those murder cases she refers to in her order if she

[00:40:18] [SPEAKER_01]: wasn't uh dealing with such things with all of this that should we move on yeah but let's let's talk a little

[00:40:23] [SPEAKER_02]: bit you know i mean one thing i mean if you if you follow the show you know everyone's constantly

[00:40:28] [SPEAKER_02]: yelling at us one week we're we're in the pockets of the defense another week we're in the pockets of the

[00:40:33] [SPEAKER_02]: prosecution another week we're in the pockets of the judge and so i just want to use this as a time

[00:40:38] [SPEAKER_02]: like we'll say whatever we want based on what we think and based on our analysis of the facts of

[00:40:43] [SPEAKER_02]: the situation and that means pissing everybody off so i mean that's fine that's our jobs it's not our

[00:40:50] [SPEAKER_02]: jobs to do any hand holding if that being said if we think somebody did a bad job in one respect

[00:40:56] [SPEAKER_02]: that doesn't necessarily mean we're going to just hold everything against them for the end of time so i mean

[00:41:01] [SPEAKER_02]: again i really think judge gull has done some serious wrongs here and really bungled the public

[00:41:06] [SPEAKER_02]: access version of this but if she's doing a good job at trial we're going to report that if we feel

[00:41:11] [SPEAKER_02]: like she's making reasonable rulings we're going to report that this doesn't mean that it's going to

[00:41:14] [SPEAKER_02]: influence everything we think about her it's just that we do feel the need to speak on this specifically

[00:41:19] [SPEAKER_02]: for the sake of transparency and to let people know what's going on um you know it's it's same with

[00:41:24] [SPEAKER_02]: the defense i can say that hey maybe this filing that they did wasn't very good but i can also say hey

[00:41:29] [SPEAKER_02]: baldwin and og did a great job in voir dire right so like you can i think we all instead of treating

[00:41:34] [SPEAKER_02]: it like it's a stupid football game let's treat it more like we can kind of critique things and praise

[00:41:39] [SPEAKER_02]: things based on what happens maybe compartmentalize a little bit at times and uh go forward in that

[00:41:46] [SPEAKER_02]: respect so i think that did that kind of cover what you wanted to say yeah shall we uh move on to the

[00:41:52] [SPEAKER_01]: hearing sure so uh 8 37 a.m richard allen came in in a striped shirt he was wearing handcuffs at the

[00:42:02] [SPEAKER_01]: time but they were quickly removed all this was outside the presence of the jury because it is

[00:42:08] [SPEAKER_01]: important for his rights for him not to be seen in handcuffs in front of the jury you don't want to

[00:42:14] [SPEAKER_02]: make a defendant look like a criminal frankly in front of a jury by having them in the prison garb in

[00:42:19] [SPEAKER_02]: the handcuffs with the shackles they need to look like a person otherwise you could really prejudice

[00:42:23] [SPEAKER_02]: a jury against that defendant so that's that's why that's done and why it's different for trial

[00:42:29] [SPEAKER_02]: and and for the things that are in the presence of the jury versus the pre-trial yes uh he had glasses

[00:42:36] [SPEAKER_01]: on his forehead all day the last day of jury selection never ever used them at all i wonder if he even

[00:42:49] [SPEAKER_02]: really curious does he need glasses because i've never seen him use them he does always have them on

[00:42:52] [SPEAKER_01]: so the first uh order of business was to discuss the uh motion by the prosecution they don't want to

[00:43:03] [SPEAKER_02]: include uh the sketches yeah it's a motion in lemonade so that's like throw out mention of the sketches

[00:43:10] [SPEAKER_01]: in the case uh stacy diener was uh in charge of that talk about stacy diener talk about uh the

[00:43:19] [SPEAKER_02]: witness she called absolutely stacy diener is of course one of the deputy prosecutors

[00:43:27] [SPEAKER_02]: in the delphi murders case um we've seen a bit of her so far i i like her she's kind of she i like

[00:43:35] [SPEAKER_02]: her delivery she's very cool unruffled kind of very smooth matter of fact that's kind of the way

[00:43:42] [SPEAKER_02]: she delivers things that's the way she sort of conducts her portion so i think her style works well

[00:43:48] [SPEAKER_02]: in uh in my opinion uh the person she called was thomas plants he is a retired special agent of

[00:43:56] [SPEAKER_02]: the federal bureau of investigation as well as a forensic artist he also is apparently a former

[00:44:01] [SPEAKER_02]: indiana state police trooper and forensic artist he had a background in commercial art and has then

[00:44:08] [SPEAKER_02]: had a long career in law enforcement and retired only in march 2024 he does consulting now he was an

[00:44:15] [SPEAKER_02]: instructor he has he's extensively extensive background including working at the uh knoxville

[00:44:21] [SPEAKER_02]: and detroit field um offices for the fbi and he was the first and only i think he was the first

[00:44:29] [SPEAKER_02]: special agent in the fbi to perform forensic art for them um basically mostly most of those people

[00:44:36] [SPEAKER_02]: are civilians it's rare that a special agent would be doing that but his background that's what you do

[00:44:41] [SPEAKER_02]: and he was there to kind of talk he was also notably um involved in the delphi case because

[00:44:47] [SPEAKER_02]: he is the artist who drew up the first released sketch which was the second one drawn um based on

[00:44:56] [SPEAKER_02]: the witness sighting of sarah carbaugh and this is of course is the sketch that was again first released

[00:45:01] [SPEAKER_02]: and it's the one that looks like an older man that we're all familiar with i assume um he talked

[00:45:06] [SPEAKER_02]: about how he uses cognitive interviewing techniques and that's basically where he's kind of encouraging

[00:45:12] [SPEAKER_02]: people to kind of get back in the mode and be open to different almost like triggers with their

[00:45:17] [SPEAKER_02]: memories in order to get back in the mode of giving him a really good description of somebody so that

[00:45:22] [SPEAKER_02]: could mean like kind of talking like interviewing them extensively like what were the smells that day

[00:45:26] [SPEAKER_02]: like what were you doing before then like walk me through the whole like it's all these things to

[00:45:31] [SPEAKER_02]: almost prepare someone to be able to give a really detailed sketch right right and so um he he talked

[00:45:43] [SPEAKER_02]: extensively about that and i mean should we talk about like what the state wanted versus what the

[00:45:49] [SPEAKER_02]: defense wanted here because it was weird there was a bit of an agreement in in part but um what

[00:45:54] [SPEAKER_02]: did the state what the state is saying and i think you explained it better to me so i want you to jump

[00:45:59] [SPEAKER_02]: in at some point the state wanted the sketches the two prominent sketches the the sort of so-called

[00:46:07] [SPEAKER_02]: old man sketch and the young man sketch released in 2017 and 2019 respectively to be kept out and what

[00:46:14] [SPEAKER_02]: their argument was essentially like the witnesses who gave those sketches identified the person they saw

[00:46:20] [SPEAKER_02]: as the guy in the video that libby took that liberty german took on the bridge so therefore we don't

[00:46:27] [SPEAKER_01]: even need the sketches so you just have them come in and say the videos who i saw the videos who i saw

[00:46:31] [SPEAKER_01]: so i think you described it using a famous landmark so uh i said uh anya imagine that you and one of your

[00:46:39] [SPEAKER_01]: wonderful sisters took a trip to paris and saw the eiffel tower and then at some point is you are coming

[00:46:48] [SPEAKER_01]: back from paris uh you talk to someone you give them a description of the tower as you saw it that day

[00:46:56] [SPEAKER_01]: and they draw a picture of it and you say this picture is pretty close to what i saw and then it turns out

[00:47:03] [SPEAKER_01]: that your sister had a camera with her and took a picture of it the same day the same time you were

[00:47:10] [SPEAKER_01]: seeing the tower so at that point you look at the picture you say yes this is exactly what i saw

[00:47:17] [SPEAKER_01]: this is it and it's a photograph so at that point the argument would be do we need the picture that

[00:47:23] [SPEAKER_01]: was drawn anymore or can we just rely on the photograph and the state is saying we don't need

[00:47:28] [SPEAKER_01]: to talk about the sketches we can just rely on the photograph and i think the defense's point of view

[00:47:34] [SPEAKER_01]: is uh if investigators during the lifetime of this case were sending around a sketch of a person who did

[00:47:46] [SPEAKER_01]: not look in their opinion like richard allen and we're saying this person who does not look like

[00:47:51] [SPEAKER_01]: richard allen is guilty of this crime help us find him then they feel they should be able to bring that

[00:47:58] [SPEAKER_01]: up in the trial as part of their critique of the investigation because like oh hey look this guy they

[00:48:04] [SPEAKER_01]: said did it it's it's not our client this sketch is different so that's what is that what the crux of it was

[00:48:10] [SPEAKER_02]: but the defense also wanted to throw out the sarah car boss sketch because that's the one that frankly

[00:48:16] [SPEAKER_01]: looks more like richard allen yes and so so they were like an agreement on that one so the witness uh

[00:48:23] [SPEAKER_01]: was the person who drew that sketch and the cross-examination was done by jennifer ogre who we

[00:48:31] [SPEAKER_01]: haven't really seen a lot of she did really well during uh voir dire and this cross-examination she

[00:48:39] [SPEAKER_01]: did today was really good yeah it was brutal i mean i was really impressed uh you have to imagine

[00:48:46] [SPEAKER_01]: when you see a really good defense attorney in court that if you see them doing something that works

[00:48:52] [SPEAKER_01]: it's probably like at least a little bit of a bit and so she comes up there and she's like acting like

[00:48:59] [SPEAKER_01]: uh oh i don't know what page this is on or this is on and maybe you're thinking oh i can relax she's

[00:49:06] [SPEAKER_01]: not really all that intimidating and then as you relax boom she uh she gets you yeah then suddenly

[00:49:13] [SPEAKER_02]: just became a shark yeah i relate to that you know like i can't find anything and then suddenly i'm

[00:49:19] [SPEAKER_02]: saying harsh things i feel like that's my life so i mean it was definitely it was impressive because i

[00:49:23] [SPEAKER_02]: i think uh she she definitely lured plants into a trap and you know i think i mean i could kind of

[00:49:29] [SPEAKER_02]: see it like oh they've got some they've got something um so she you know one of the things

[00:49:38] [SPEAKER_02]: that he talked about it was that you're not supposed to like show pictures of a suspect to

[00:49:45] [SPEAKER_02]: to the person who is gonna the eyewitness because then that might bias them and they might just describe

[00:49:51] [SPEAKER_01]: the suspect right like so yeah if someone uh if anya is under suspicion for stealing cereal

[00:49:58] [SPEAKER_01]: and there's somebody who saw the cereal thief in the in the sketch artist says oh hey look at this

[00:50:03] [SPEAKER_01]: picture of anya now describe the thief that might influence them yes and so what what og kept saying

[00:50:11] [SPEAKER_02]: was like well you'd never tell someone to cheat would you or like you know give them images or

[00:50:16] [SPEAKER_02]: whatever and plants was like no and and then she'd obviously never do that uh she pulled i was like

[00:50:21] [SPEAKER_02]: well gosh i was like okay this is probably the time to hedge because obviously they have something

[00:50:25] [SPEAKER_02]: like there's another shoe waiting to drop here sir and um she played the uh deposition with sarah

[00:50:32] [SPEAKER_02]: carbaugh and he did he talked about cheating now i mean now i'll get to what his explanation was and

[00:50:38] [SPEAKER_02]: he did you know he was talking with her about the image of bridge guy now what he clarified was like

[00:50:43] [SPEAKER_02]: listen i say cheat because it's like cheat codes and he was talking about he was you know he talked a lot

[00:50:48] [SPEAKER_02]: about accessing memories storing memories so like i understood what he was saying he also was talking

[00:50:53] [SPEAKER_02]: about like when you have situations where it's like surveillance footage that's really blurry it's okay

[00:50:59] [SPEAKER_02]: to show that because you're trying to again elicit the context you're trying to unlock those memories it's

[00:51:04] [SPEAKER_02]: part of the cognitive process so in his view the image of bridge guy is faceless it's it's essentially

[00:51:12] [SPEAKER_02]: so pixelated that you cannot make out the man's face and i tend to agree with him i think when people

[00:51:19] [SPEAKER_02]: for all those years were like doing side by sides it was frankly the stupidest thing in the world because

[00:51:23] [SPEAKER_02]: it was like no one can tell what this guy is he's featureless he's like so blurry you can't do that

[00:51:30] [SPEAKER_02]: but at the same time it was a really it was it was it was definitely like a really embarrassing trap

[00:51:36] [SPEAKER_02]: to follow until on the stand i thought and i was just like oof like you know it it kind of just was

[00:51:41] [SPEAKER_02]: like it was pretty it was pretty rough um to to see but i thought i thought oje did a really good

[00:51:47] [SPEAKER_02]: job of just kind of setting that up and then and she was like you know no further questions like you

[00:51:51] [SPEAKER_02]: know like like he was trying to explain and she was kind of like no i didn't like like classic

[00:51:55] [SPEAKER_02]: lawyer thing of like i'm not i don't want to hear it like we're done um and so i thought

[00:52:00] [SPEAKER_02]: good performance by her um ultimately kind of kind of futile one one thing to remember here is that i

[00:52:11] [SPEAKER_02]: think with with this filing sometimes sketches can lead to the identification of a suspect right

[00:52:18] [SPEAKER_02]: sometimes if the sketch looks like me stealing the cereal and people come you know let's you know

[00:52:23] [SPEAKER_02]: local police knock on my door and yep that's her and i've got a bunch of cereal so that would be a

[00:52:29] [SPEAKER_02]: situation where the sketches were truly important to the case in this case the sketches didn't do

[00:52:34] [SPEAKER_02]: anything the sketches had nothing to do with how richard allen was eventually arrested or came on the

[00:52:39] [SPEAKER_02]: radar even sketches were fundamentally useless i would say this is a case is a good case study for

[00:52:46] [SPEAKER_02]: why you don't release sketches because sketches are so subjective and this is something that plants

[00:52:50] [SPEAKER_02]: was very clear on sketches are artists artists rendering of a person's you know potentially fleeting

[00:52:57] [SPEAKER_02]: memory they're highly subjective they're not a photograph they should not be taken as seriously

[00:53:03] [SPEAKER_02]: as frankly everyone took them in this case in my opinion because it's just like someone might look

[00:53:07] [SPEAKER_02]: young to me older to a younger person like there's just so much you know if i'm if i'm driving on the

[00:53:13] [SPEAKER_02]: road i might like get a glimpse and give me get an impression but maybe just the light is falling on

[00:53:17] [SPEAKER_02]: the person's face in a weird way and i think they have a beard and it's it's just shadow like you know

[00:53:23] [SPEAKER_02]: there's all sorts of things it's not an exact science and that was something plants was very much

[00:53:27] [SPEAKER_02]: emphasizing but the sketches were useless here and they were seemingly what came out today sort of

[00:53:33] [SPEAKER_02]: drawn up based on pretty fleeting momentary um kind of views by these witnesses and ultimately the state's

[00:53:44] [SPEAKER_02]: contention is you know both witnesses identify the person they saw as the bridge guy in the video

[00:53:52] [SPEAKER_02]: so what the state is saying is basically i think what they're setting this up for is if we can prove

[00:53:57] [SPEAKER_02]: that alan is the guy in the video that's all that matters the sketches are irrelevant which i would

[00:54:01] [SPEAKER_02]: agree with if we're trying to get to the facts the sketches are not that helpful but i can also see

[00:54:07] [SPEAKER_02]: where the defense is coming from saying well you guys made a big deal of it so it should be fair game

[00:54:11] [SPEAKER_02]: so that's where we are they all they cited some different case law and whatever it sounds like gull

[00:54:16] [SPEAKER_02]: is going to come on the side of the prosecution on this one basically noting that in this situation

[00:54:21] [SPEAKER_02]: the sketches didn't ultimately serve any investigative value and therefore um you know

[00:54:30] [SPEAKER_02]: the video is enough i mean was that was that sort of do you have any was there any more uh context or

[00:54:36] [SPEAKER_01]: anything for that yeah she said that she was struggling to see she was struggling to see how

[00:54:42] [SPEAKER_01]: the sketches can be relevant to the case if they did not lead to an id of richard allen i also thought

[00:54:49] [SPEAKER_02]: it was funny that the defense was basically saying like well we don't really want the sarah carbaugh

[00:54:53] [SPEAKER_02]: one because that one had a bunch of problems with it and they did it wrong and all that stuff which

[00:54:57] [SPEAKER_02]: you know like but that is the one that looks like richard allen in my in my personal opinion but they

[00:55:03] [SPEAKER_02]: really want that young guy sketch from betsy blair because you know that doesn't really look like him

[00:55:08] [SPEAKER_02]: and uh they they think that that one should be allowed in so that they can say obviously it's not him

[00:55:15] [SPEAKER_02]: they kind of agree on one of the sketches but they they disagree generally oh then there was kind of an

[00:55:25] [SPEAKER_01]: odd moment where uh uh miss lejane wanted to give uh the judge some uh an exhibit on a flash drive

[00:55:35] [SPEAKER_01]: and judge gold did not like that she said i can't if when the jurors are deliberating i can't give them

[00:55:42] [SPEAKER_01]: a flash drive and uh rad rosie was like well what can you give them and he said can't you just uh

[00:55:50] [SPEAKER_01]: if the jurors want to see something that's on a flash drive a picture or a video can't uh a bailiff

[00:55:57] [SPEAKER_01]: just uh you know stick it in there and hit play and there was an objection raised well what if there's

[00:56:04] [SPEAKER_01]: a whole bunch of videos on the uh on the flash drive and uh rosie said well can't they just be clearly

[00:56:10] [SPEAKER_01]: labeled so that was a was that at that point or was that later on uh i have it in my notes at the

[00:56:15] [SPEAKER_01]: end of this oh at some point in the middle of that there was a brief interruption yeah where the jury

[00:56:20] [SPEAKER_02]: came and was sworn in and so in total with the jurors we had um i think it turned out to be eight

[00:56:26] [SPEAKER_02]: women and four men and then four alternates who are two women and two men so these people are about to

[00:56:34] [SPEAKER_02]: undergo a pretty extreme ordeal they will be transported with um jason bodie and other officials

[00:56:41] [SPEAKER_02]: from allen county um to a hotel and uh you know kept away from everyone else and um it's just really

[00:56:48] [SPEAKER_02]: important that you know they be respected and protected by this process so nobody should ever be

[00:56:54] [SPEAKER_02]: speaking to a juror in this case under any circumstances whatsoever no juror should be leaking

[00:57:00] [SPEAKER_02]: or researching the case or listening to anything so let's just hope that these jurors take this really

[00:57:06] [SPEAKER_02]: seriously and that everyone else takes it seriously and we can just all get through this because these

[00:57:11] [SPEAKER_02]: are just everyday people that have been thrust into a pretty wild situation so we if we want our system

[00:57:17] [SPEAKER_02]: to work we need to protect jurors and we need jurors to take it seriously so yeah this is pretty important

[00:57:22] [SPEAKER_02]: so good luck to all of them um you know there's discussion with the sketches about like certain

[00:57:28] [SPEAKER_02]: things can get thrown out like oftentimes sketches that were based on like hypnosis they were setting

[00:57:33] [SPEAKER_02]: case law from the 70s there's a lot of back and forth on this um and ultimately the judge is taking it

[00:57:39] [SPEAKER_01]: under advisement she has to rule on it pretty quickly because uh the defense apparently uh at least at the

[00:57:47] [SPEAKER_01]: moment is planning to talk about sketches in their opening statement which is tomorrow

[00:57:53] [SPEAKER_02]: oh i'm assuming baldwin's gonna do the opening statement because that's sort of what we've heard

[00:57:58] [SPEAKER_02]: is something he often likes to do takes the opening very very seriously so that's my guess i don't know

[00:58:03] [SPEAKER_01]: that for a fact but yeah so that was it for the sketches the next one was a very quick one you may

[00:58:10] [SPEAKER_01]: remember that the defense asked for the jury to be allowed to visit the crime scene uh the defense

[00:58:17] [SPEAKER_01]: withdrew that motion so the jury would not be visiting the crime i wonder why they changed their

[00:58:21] [SPEAKER_02]: minds yeah i don't know i mean it's not like richard allen would have to go there with them

[00:58:26] [SPEAKER_02]: they noted that so you know who knows but that's not happening anymore i think it would have been a

[00:58:31] [SPEAKER_02]: logistical nightmare and much more difficult than they said it would be but i mean i could understand

[00:58:35] [SPEAKER_01]: why they'd want to do that so the next one uh goes to separation of witnesses and who can be in the

[00:58:44] [SPEAKER_01]: courtroom typically or not unusually if people are testifying in a case like this you want the

[00:58:53] [SPEAKER_01]: witnesses separated and that means like uh if anya and i are both scheduled to testify in a case you

[00:59:00] [SPEAKER_01]: wouldn't want anya to be in the room to hear me testify if she hasn't testified yet because for uh

[00:59:06] [SPEAKER_01]: anya obviously would just repeat everything i say obviously that's what i that's what my job is here

[00:59:11] [SPEAKER_01]: so what you do is you say okay anya and kevin can cannot be in the courtroom when kevin testifies

[00:59:19] [SPEAKER_01]: anya can't be present and so on so there's a separation of witnesses you can't be in there

[00:59:25] [SPEAKER_01]: until after your your testifying is done but there are exceptions and the defense asked for one of their

[00:59:34] [SPEAKER_01]: interns uh a young man named max baker to be exempted from that he's scheduled to testify i think probably

[00:59:40] [SPEAKER_01]: about conditions at westville they said we really need him for it to help us out during the trial so

[00:59:46] [SPEAKER_01]: we'd like to see him be excluded uh from that and allowed to be to sit with mcclellan did not object

[00:59:51] [SPEAKER_01]: to that so that was allowed and uh nick mcclellan the prosecutor wanted two people to be excluded and sit

[00:59:59] [SPEAKER_01]: with him one was investigator steve mullen and one was a lead investigator of indian state police

[01:00:06] [SPEAKER_01]: jerry holman and he said i they both worked in different areas if i had to choose just one he

[01:00:13] [SPEAKER_01]: said it would be jerry holman but i would really prefer to have both of them mullen apparently has

[01:00:18] [SPEAKER_02]: been handling all the evidence organizations so having him would obviously be pretty important

[01:00:23] [SPEAKER_02]: because he might know where things are where even the prosecution might not know and holman has been on

[01:00:29] [SPEAKER_01]: the case since the beginning since the beginning so he has the big picture view which can also be

[01:00:35] [SPEAKER_01]: incredibly helpful uh gull allowed both of them to sit at the table so yeah that's not surprising and

[01:00:42] [SPEAKER_02]: actually mcclellan even cited a case where you had a similar situation where isp an isp investigator

[01:00:48] [SPEAKER_02]: and an fbi agent were both allowed to do this in indiana and you know it just seemed there wasn't

[01:00:55] [SPEAKER_02]: really much argument against that that made any sort of real impact i think so the next motion to be

[01:01:02] [SPEAKER_01]: discussed was a motion to eliminate filed by the defense concerning they wanted certain testimony

[01:01:09] [SPEAKER_01]: related to richard allen in prison to be excluded and they said you know some of this would be some

[01:01:18] [SPEAKER_01]: of the testimony we like to see excluded comes from police who interviewed people these facilities

[01:01:22] [SPEAKER_01]: some of it comes from inmates and some of it comes from prison guards and he indicated the prison

[01:01:29] [SPEAKER_01]: guards uh were from westville wabash wabash valley wabash valley cast county maybe some of the other

[01:01:37] [SPEAKER_01]: jails white county and i found that really interesting because this testimony is supposedly be about

[01:01:43] [SPEAKER_01]: richard allen either behaving in odd ways to say the least or making incriminating statements and we've

[01:01:53] [SPEAKER_01]: been led to believe that the odd behavior and the incriminating statements were basically in a

[01:01:59] [SPEAKER_01]: relatively small pocket of time like a year ago yeah which the defense characterized as indicating

[01:02:04] [SPEAKER_02]: that he was sort of driven to a horrible state at one specific time and then things changed and he

[01:02:10] [SPEAKER_01]: was able to get better he got better and then he went to cass county very very recently but it sounds

[01:02:15] [SPEAKER_02]: like something happened at cass county too yes so i wonder what that was and also that would really

[01:02:22] [SPEAKER_02]: really hurt them in terms of their whole like he was kept in solitary confinement that's why he's doing

[01:02:27] [SPEAKER_02]: all of this because if he's in the place where they were begging for him to get sent and he's still

[01:02:32] [SPEAKER_02]: doing this stuff then i don't know that sounds that sounds kind of bad for him i mean like yeah that

[01:02:39] [SPEAKER_02]: was you could say i guess he was broken and he never got over westville but i mean i don't know

[01:02:44] [SPEAKER_02]: that sort of seems like maybe it indicates something else it sounds like there's going to be a lot of

[01:02:48] [SPEAKER_02]: stories and listen i'm this i'm just reading between the lines here it sounds like there's going to be

[01:02:52] [SPEAKER_02]: a lot of impressions from people who worked there that he might have been either malingering or that

[01:02:58] [SPEAKER_02]: his behavior was based on something like a guilty conscience rather than an actual mental illness

[01:03:04] [SPEAKER_02]: and by malingering you mean he was faking it faking it or you know just you know basically behaving in a

[01:03:09] [SPEAKER_02]: way that did not actually fit what a mentally ill person would be doing or that you know he was in

[01:03:14] [SPEAKER_02]: somewhat of control of his behavior that's what it sounded like based on what the back and forth was

[01:03:19] [SPEAKER_02]: but we don't know that it's possible to be some you know but i mean it seemed like the defense was

[01:03:23] [SPEAKER_02]: trying to get ahead of something with this is that fair to say yeah and rosie was saying well these

[01:03:27] [SPEAKER_01]: these people aren't qualified to make a determination about whether or not someone was faking bizarre

[01:03:33] [SPEAKER_01]: behavior uh mcclellan says we're not testifying as mental health experts they're just testifying on

[01:03:39] [SPEAKER_02]: what they saw and how they interpreted it i mean i i think i saw rosie's point about yeah they're not

[01:03:45] [SPEAKER_02]: they shouldn't be able to diagnose him or anything like that um but at the same time if you're working

[01:03:50] [SPEAKER_02]: with him every day and one at one point you see him doing something that could be qualified as a

[01:03:55] [SPEAKER_02]: symptom of a severe mental illness and then the next minute he's doing something that completely

[01:04:00] [SPEAKER_02]: counteracts that and maybe even indicates that he doesn't have one or or that he's saying things

[01:04:06] [SPEAKER_02]: like oh i'm you know he's in control of his behavior then i think that would be relevant to hear

[01:04:12] [SPEAKER_01]: and and he indicated also he was concerned that if you're asking a person whether or not richard

[01:04:18] [SPEAKER_01]: allen is faking bizarre behavior or faking it when he says certain things you're basically asking for an

[01:04:25] [SPEAKER_01]: opinion of their guilt or innocence and he said for instance like what if someone says uh

[01:04:29] [SPEAKER_01]: richard allen told me that he told the girls to go down the hill and they got scared and killed

[01:04:34] [SPEAKER_01]: them yeah and and mcclellan we're getting more details about yeah what's in these confessions

[01:04:42] [SPEAKER_02]: well i mean i thought he was just using that as an example we got scared and killed them yeah but i

[01:04:47] [SPEAKER_02]: that he may have just been speaking of like what if he says that you know or do you think he was

[01:04:51] [SPEAKER_01]: trying to basically like let that out so people can uh mcclellan in his mini opening said that

[01:04:57] [SPEAKER_01]: richard allen intended to do something else with the girls and then was interrupted perhaps whatever

[01:05:03] [SPEAKER_02]: interrupted him scared him right yeah some sort of sexual assault was like the motive and that he

[01:05:09] [SPEAKER_02]: was interrupted maybe scared we're kind of seeing this all pieced together i mean i feel like the

[01:05:15] [SPEAKER_02]: defense does something again and again where they sort of conflate two different things so i mean

[01:05:19] [SPEAKER_02]: it was weird that mcclellan was like we want to hear what these people saw and then brad rosie's like

[01:05:25] [SPEAKER_02]: well they're gonna say he's guilty and it's like that's not really what it's about it's about whether

[01:05:29] [SPEAKER_02]: or not i mean they're making an issue of his mental health and saying that this is all because of

[01:05:34] [SPEAKER_02]: either some combination of deprivation mental illness being pushed to the brink by these negative

[01:05:39] [SPEAKER_02]: circumstances but if the people are observing him in those circumstances have something to say about

[01:05:43] [SPEAKER_02]: that that might be relevant to hear to in order for the jury to determine yeah this is mental illness

[01:05:49] [SPEAKER_02]: maybe he maybe these confessions should be not given much weight it's like they want to just

[01:05:54] [SPEAKER_02]: have everyone accept that he must be mentally ill without actually like necessarily hearing from

[01:05:58] [SPEAKER_02]: anyone who is actually there and so i i didn't find their arguments on that particularly compelling

[01:06:05] [SPEAKER_02]: you know and as long as these prison guards aren't going to be saying well like i diagnosed him as

[01:06:09] [SPEAKER_02]: whatever i mean i think that's i think it's fair to hear them out and see what they have to say

[01:06:15] [SPEAKER_02]: because it might be it sounds like it might be interesting again i mean i when they said cass

[01:06:19] [SPEAKER_02]: county i thought i misheard for a second i was like what and i was really surprised i looked at

[01:06:24] [SPEAKER_02]: your notes and i was like no it was cass county like uh that's very recent if he did something in

[01:06:31] [SPEAKER_02]: cass county that's pretty shocking yeah um but yeah i mean what do you make am i am i being too unfair

[01:06:39] [SPEAKER_02]: to the defense there like do you feel like they sometimes are like arguing against something that the

[01:06:43] [SPEAKER_01]: state is actually not saying well keep in mind that uh they are aware of a lot more than what we are

[01:06:53] [SPEAKER_01]: obviously they are aware what where the state might be going with something so they might be saying oh

[01:06:58] [SPEAKER_02]: they might some of this might indicate he's guilty so we better cut that off of the pass yeah all right

[01:07:03] [SPEAKER_02]: well i mean i don't know it sounds like this could be some pretty bad stuff for the defense uh maybe

[01:07:08] [SPEAKER_02]: it's maybe it's not maybe it's just neutral who knows i mean we're kind of speculating what did gold

[01:07:12] [SPEAKER_02]: say um gold basically said i my understanding i mean like tell me if i interpreted this wrong but

[01:07:22] [SPEAKER_02]: basically that like we can hear out the prison guards as long as they're not diagnosing him

[01:07:28] [SPEAKER_02]: right which seemed like a reasonable ruling to me they shouldn't be diagnosing him they're not

[01:07:32] [SPEAKER_02]: qualified to do so you know like that would i mean that would be inappropriate and also i don't feel

[01:07:38] [SPEAKER_02]: like they should be saying oh well he said he killed libyan abby so therefore he did do it you

[01:07:44] [SPEAKER_02]: know i mean because you can you can falsely confess they don't know that they weren't there they have

[01:07:48] [SPEAKER_02]: no knowledge but they can tell us about the behavior that preceded and and followed some of these

[01:07:54] [SPEAKER_02]: outbursts they can tell them about the you know what was actually said i mean that that all seems

[01:07:59] [SPEAKER_02]: fair to hear from them and again like if he if some of this is just mental illness then i would

[01:08:05] [SPEAKER_02]: think that that would be something that would be bolstered by hearing from people who are actually

[01:08:10] [SPEAKER_01]: seeing this unfold so the next one involves a discussion of a lawsuit that the prosecution did

[01:08:19] [SPEAKER_01]: not want the defense to bring up uh this is a lawsuit about conditions and it resulted in change

[01:08:27] [SPEAKER_01]: to department of corrections policy about mental health and uh it got a little bit heated uh stacy

[01:08:35] [SPEAKER_01]: diener argued for the prosecution basically saying this is a lawsuit that was over even before

[01:08:40] [SPEAKER_01]: richard allen even set foot it ended in like what like 2020 i think something like that so how could

[01:08:46] [SPEAKER_01]: it be relevant to him and his situation that seemed like a fair point and uh rosie argued well it set

[01:08:53] [SPEAKER_01]: up this policy for how people with certain mental illnesses uh should be treated in the department

[01:09:00] [SPEAKER_01]: of correction and i feel it is important for people on the jury to understand that and get the full

[01:09:07] [SPEAKER_01]: context so they can really understand the situation it's about the getting the jury the truth i think

[01:09:12] [SPEAKER_02]: it's actually more about just making indiana department of correction look bad so the jury is like yes

[01:09:19] [SPEAKER_02]: it is their fault that he confessed which is fair that's the defense's job to get that in i just

[01:09:24] [SPEAKER_02]: it got heated because there was some bizarre catch-22 sort of situation where rosie and gull file this is

[01:09:30] [SPEAKER_02]: this happens a lot i feel like rosie and gull are off and that's the kind of that's when things are

[01:09:35] [SPEAKER_02]: getting heated if they're starting to go at it because rosie has kind of a temper and and then gull

[01:09:42] [SPEAKER_02]: is just like kind of icily repeating things it just they get into a cycle sometimes and and so

[01:09:48] [SPEAKER_02]: is that fair yeah she said rosie was like harping on an issue harping on an issue and it just like

[01:09:53] [SPEAKER_02]: you know she's kind of a real extra voice she sounds disgusted he's like losing it you know and

[01:09:58] [SPEAKER_02]: and it's just kind of like this uncomfortable everyone else is just saying they're like okay

[01:10:02] [SPEAKER_02]: um so what what happened i mean i didn't really understand his point so maybe you can explain it

[01:10:09] [SPEAKER_02]: kevin if you felt it was more reasonable than i kind of interpreted it as because again i'm a dumb

[01:10:13] [SPEAKER_02]: journalist i'm he may have had a really good point here but he seemed to be saying i want to use

[01:10:17] [SPEAKER_02]: this definition because they need the whole context of this frankly what sounded like an

[01:10:22] [SPEAKER_02]: irrelevant lawsuit and she's saying but if that language was adopted by the time that richard allen

[01:10:29] [SPEAKER_02]: was incarcerated there why don't you just use that language in sort of like i guess like the official

[01:10:34] [SPEAKER_02]: i guess official rule book about how they're supposed to treat people with mental illness

[01:10:39] [SPEAKER_02]: and and then the defense kind of was like well kind we could kind of do that but we need some like

[01:10:44] [SPEAKER_02]: like they i i don't know why they just didn't go with that because that seemed to make a lot more

[01:10:49] [SPEAKER_02]: sense and then this just was like no but they need everything and it was like i don't know i mean what

[01:10:53] [SPEAKER_01]: what was going on here well gull uh ruled that it was inadmissible so it won't be included but what

[01:11:00] [SPEAKER_02]: is your take on that why did they want that that specific aspect so bad was it just to bring in like

[01:11:05] [SPEAKER_02]: idoc as a horrible place and i think so the people there you know they should never you know they were

[01:11:10] [SPEAKER_01]: torturing him and all this stuff but like and look they did this other stuff too in the past

[01:11:14] [SPEAKER_01]: this is what it felt like i could understand why defense attorney would want to no i mean i'm

[01:11:18] [SPEAKER_02]: i'm more power to him i mean like that makes sense but i i also can understand why they would that

[01:11:23] [SPEAKER_02]: would get ruled out because it's it's not relevant i mean you got to try right you mean like it's

[01:11:29] [SPEAKER_02]: you're not going to get anywhere by not trying to get more in and more context and more things to make

[01:11:35] [SPEAKER_02]: your case seem stronger to the jury so i mean i'm not faulting them for that i'm just more of saying

[01:11:40] [SPEAKER_02]: i didn't really get like the the argument against it being kind of irrelevant as i said gull ruled

[01:11:48] [SPEAKER_02]: it inadmissible but yeah things things had been pretty collegial for a while between the parties

[01:11:53] [SPEAKER_02]: there were this was i've at one point um i mean the most like brutal moment in this was the ending

[01:12:01] [SPEAKER_02]: where it was actually sounded collegial but was not rosy just like kind of like like you could tell

[01:12:09] [SPEAKER_02]: like kind of like almost like kind of raised his hand and was just like thank you you know what i

[01:12:13] [SPEAKER_02]: mean like he was obviously not thankful or happy about this and she just very coldly responded you're

[01:12:19] [SPEAKER_02]: welcome like did you notice that i was like oh man like tension um the next uh portion was all about

[01:12:27] [SPEAKER_01]: ballistics yes uh the prosecution filed a motion in limity saying that uh bill tobin uh defense

[01:12:36] [SPEAKER_01]: expert should not be allowed to testify and this was handled by uh jim luttrell and he is a very

[01:12:43] [SPEAKER_01]: unusual attorney he may be the only attorney in the world that is not in love with the sound of his own

[01:12:51] [SPEAKER_01]: voice attorney burn he is very very concise and to the point well i appreciate it because

[01:13:01] [SPEAKER_02]: people are talking a long time in some of this and frankly they're just saying the same things over and

[01:13:06] [SPEAKER_01]: over again well he didn't repeat himself he said this guy isn't a ballistics guy he's a metallurgist

[01:13:12] [SPEAKER_01]: uh he doesn't really even think that ballistics evidence is real he said no it not would not be

[01:13:19] [SPEAKER_02]: worth my time in terms of doing any work around forensic examination of firearms tobin said that

[01:13:25] [SPEAKER_02]: tobin said that not tobin he quoted luttrell he quoted tobin as saying that and um he also quoted

[01:13:32] [SPEAKER_02]: uh tobin as saying he never did quote research research on what he considers a flawed methodology

[01:13:39] [SPEAKER_01]: yes and uh luttrell said it would be confusing to the jury if this guy comes in and just says that

[01:13:45] [SPEAKER_01]: all ballistics is junk science and then uh rosie stood up and had a really lengthy response this

[01:13:54] [SPEAKER_02]: was endless this was like the i felt the longest portion of the whole thing and frankly it felt like

[01:13:59] [SPEAKER_02]: he was repeating himself an awful lot i think it people i understand that i probably repeat myself

[01:14:04] [SPEAKER_02]: too much on this show frankly but i think when you're in court it's often better to be a little

[01:14:09] [SPEAKER_02]: concise and just kind of you know go go with go with that make your point and get out of there because

[01:14:15] [SPEAKER_02]: it it didn't make his point sound any better saying the same thing over and over again which was

[01:14:21] [SPEAKER_02]: metallurgy is the source of tool mark evidence and tool mark evidence is the source of forensic evidence

[01:14:29] [SPEAKER_02]: and it's all about metallurgy and statistics oh man this guy tobin he knows statistics and you know what

[01:14:35] [SPEAKER_02]: that's important because it tells you about forensics and it's just like okay we got it we got it the

[01:14:41] [SPEAKER_02]: first time um it um it just it went on for a long time did you feel he meant any good points in there

[01:14:50] [SPEAKER_02]: that you wanted to reflect upon i think you summarized pretty well it was a lot about you know and they

[01:14:57] [SPEAKER_02]: were like it doesn't matter that he doesn't do forensics and that's not necessarily it didn't doesn't do

[01:15:02] [SPEAKER_02]: forensics examination and it just you know basically like knocks the whole discipline uh it it's okay

[01:15:10] [SPEAKER_02]: because he does metallurgy and i was like okay i mean i think there's a growing trend of skepticism

[01:15:17] [SPEAKER_02]: i shouldn't say growing trend there was a growing trend of skepticism around tool mark evidence

[01:15:22] [SPEAKER_02]: when you talk to forensic examiners which we have done we talked to skeptics and forensic examiners so

[01:15:27] [SPEAKER_02]: we've heard this from both sides uh skeptics do tend to say it's all bad throw it all out

[01:15:33] [SPEAKER_02]: forensics examiners talk about how you know maybe maybe a while ago people were getting too comfortable

[01:15:39] [SPEAKER_02]: making too strong of declarations in court and that has largely been amended by the fact that there have

[01:15:45] [SPEAKER_02]: been more you know reforms and things that have come about as a result of some of the scrutiny

[01:15:49] [SPEAKER_02]: and so those those are sort of the two sides i mean um the fact of the matter is the defense

[01:15:56] [SPEAKER_02]: is going to have someone who does believe in forensic firearm examination be there on their

[01:16:02] [SPEAKER_02]: side um a dr warren and so i think part of the prosecution's point was like it's weird to just

[01:16:10] [SPEAKER_02]: knock the whole thing but also have this guy and you know one of rosie's big points was like well dr

[01:16:18] [SPEAKER_02]: warren thinks that bill tobin should be would be great kind of because he thinks that statistics and

[01:16:25] [SPEAKER_02]: metallurgy would be very helpful to know in forensic examination and later on latrell pointed out like

[01:16:32] [SPEAKER_02]: well you know in the the deposition actually kind of indicates somewhat differently you know like yes

[01:16:40] [SPEAKER_02]: he did say statistics would be helpful but he didn't indicate that he thought bill tobin would be a great

[01:16:45] [SPEAKER_02]: fit for this yeah so i thought it was funny they started arguing about that case at a cook county that

[01:16:51] [SPEAKER_02]: everyone cites about how like firearm you know forensics was really uh i'm sorry ballistics was

[01:16:56] [SPEAKER_02]: very much kind of like thrown out there and it was like a big deal and they were going back and forth

[01:17:02] [SPEAKER_02]: and what did what what did latrell say at one point he was just like uh and and also rosie brought up uh

[01:17:08] [SPEAKER_01]: a maryland supreme court case i believe that made a similar ruling and lutrell said those cases are

[01:17:14] [SPEAKER_02]: outliers they're outliers they're outliers they don't apply here in indiana and they're outliers in

[01:17:19] [SPEAKER_02]: that he he i think he made some like quip where he said he he objected to the the being a good idea in

[01:17:26] [SPEAKER_02]: cook county like the the ruling being a good one um i felt like he also made the point that seemed kind

[01:17:33] [SPEAKER_02]: of important that tobin has testified in a lot of situations like that it seems like when it's like at

[01:17:40] [SPEAKER_02]: a higher level but he hasn't done a lot of jury trials yeah so he's coming in i think maybe more to talk

[01:17:47] [SPEAKER_02]: to the higher courts and say here's here's my take on ballistics as a whole and and um when it comes

[01:17:54] [SPEAKER_02]: to the jury trials though that's that's not often as much of the case because the trial courts don't

[01:18:00] [SPEAKER_02]: necessarily look on ballistics so unfavorably yeah i think you know it kind of depends and he just

[01:18:07] [SPEAKER_02]: indicated that like the appellate courts just aren't really there in indiana so that was the

[01:18:13] [SPEAKER_01]: back and forth there and judge gold took that one under advisement oh they brought up kaden smith again

[01:18:18] [SPEAKER_01]: oh yeah and uh rosie said oh i'm sure that it's just a coincidence that this happens to be a case

[01:18:24] [SPEAKER_02]: that andrew baldwin they're so salty about him bringing that up they were like oh yeah and you

[01:18:29] [SPEAKER_02]: know kaden smith and that was that was an opinion that it was only like you know six lines and you know

[01:18:34] [SPEAKER_02]: who cares it's marion county blah blah blah so that was kind of funny so gold takes that under

[01:18:39] [SPEAKER_01]: advisement and then uh prosecuted mcclellan said he doesn't like the idea of trial by surprise

[01:18:45] [SPEAKER_01]: and the defense have recently added several uh witnesses without explaining to the prosecution

[01:18:53] [SPEAKER_01]: what they intend to testify about he mentioned former prosecutor rob ives neil bruin and stacy eldridge

[01:19:01] [SPEAKER_02]: um neil broom is a computers expert who actually worked on the case in honolulu that we randomly

[01:19:11] [SPEAKER_02]: covered not knowing the connection there where there were a bunch of uh corrupt police officers

[01:19:16] [SPEAKER_02]: corrupt police chief corrupt prosecutor the uh or was it k aloha couple and he was um in the newspaper

[01:19:25] [SPEAKER_02]: coverage he kind of comes out and is like oh well this this is what this phone does and like this might

[01:19:31] [SPEAKER_02]: that this photo wasn't really taken at this time and then the prosecutor points out like yeah but can't

[01:19:36] [SPEAKER_02]: you just like edit that easily and he's like oh well yeah so i don't know i don't i don't know maybe

[01:19:43] [SPEAKER_02]: that was an outlier for him and then stacy eldridge she's also supposed to talk about this uh this kind of

[01:19:49] [SPEAKER_02]: um i guess this recent uh discovery from the cell bright phone uh that they got august 22nd and august 23rd

[01:19:59] [SPEAKER_02]: from libby's phone the defense is often making a big deal about this in order to you know show that

[01:20:05] [SPEAKER_02]: i think what they're trying to do is like maybe play with the timeline on the girls a little bit

[01:20:09] [SPEAKER_01]: when they were killed and so ultimately it was agreed that these new witnesses should expect some

[01:20:16] [SPEAKER_01]: sort of call from uh prosecutor mcclellan where they discuss at least in a cursory form what they

[01:20:24] [SPEAKER_01]: intend to testify about so he can prepare his uh cross examination well neil broom it's funny he got

[01:20:31] [SPEAKER_02]: a hold of neil broom neil broom would not tell mcclellan what he was going to talk about and you

[01:20:36] [SPEAKER_02]: know said it would be a violation of his clients rights and then eldridge indicated i don't know

[01:20:40] [SPEAKER_02]: what i'm going to talk about it's too soon to say basically so it's it's interesting it seems like

[01:20:45] [SPEAKER_02]: they may have gotten these folks maybe i don't know when they did but like i it seems odd if one of

[01:20:51] [SPEAKER_02]: doesn't know what they're going to talk about because trials tomorrow but i don't know maybe

[01:20:56] [SPEAKER_01]: they're kind of doing some stuff on the fly i guess and then i i want to mention uh a bit of a

[01:21:01] [SPEAKER_01]: scary moment at the end where uh a bit of a cliffhanger for a moment but judge gold definitely made the

[01:21:09] [SPEAKER_01]: right decision here never heard dude you know what i'm going to say no you have no idea what i have no

[01:21:13] [SPEAKER_01]: idea what you're going to say so jennifer ogre asked uh when you when you accepted our offer to

[01:21:20] [SPEAKER_01]: proof on the odinism does that offer and then when you accepted that our offer to proof on odinism can

[01:21:28] [SPEAKER_01]: come from the hearings from the summer did that offer a proof in your mind also include the testimony

[01:21:36] [SPEAKER_01]: of our expert witness don perlmutter oh no yeah because if gull said no that meant don perlmutter

[01:21:44] [SPEAKER_01]: would come back and testify again for three or four hours uh but gull said yes it did include it so

[01:21:54] [SPEAKER_02]: we're good yes great ruling by judge gull i will yeah that was important you know and just yeah that

[01:22:03] [SPEAKER_02]: was geez well i mean i guess that's it for i'm done we're done so let's uh we're tomorrow

[01:22:11] [SPEAKER_02]: first day of trial we're gonna we're gonna be there we're gonna do our best to get in we're gonna

[01:22:16] [SPEAKER_02]: be as you know we don't have press passes we don't have press passes but we don't need press passes we

[01:22:20] [SPEAKER_02]: have done a lot in this case without relying on press passes and only relying on our determination

[01:22:28] [SPEAKER_02]: to try to do a good job and so hopefully that will carry us through we may be slightly um you know like

[01:22:37] [SPEAKER_02]: limping to the finish line by the end of this thing but um you know we appreciate you listening and taking

[01:22:42] [SPEAKER_02]: the time we're giving you our sort of opinions to a certain extent on some of this but we're also just

[01:22:47] [SPEAKER_02]: trying to get you the facts and you can you can take our opinions or leave them you can uh just take

[01:22:53] [SPEAKER_02]: the facts um either way we're just trying to give you a comprehensive version of what's happening

[01:22:58] [SPEAKER_02]: and trying to clear up along the way some of the misinformation that inadvertently or frankly

[01:23:05] [SPEAKER_02]: advertently on purpose uh gets kind of injected into the bloodstream here it's an important case the

[01:23:10] [SPEAKER_02]: families of these victims deserve a smooth process with facts coming out and um i think richard allen

[01:23:17] [SPEAKER_02]: deserves a fair trial and i think um you know we're just determined to again improve the public access

[01:23:24] [SPEAKER_02]: by giving you these detailed reports we'll be doing this daily throughout the trial so just tune in

[01:23:29] [SPEAKER_02]: assuming we get it we're gonna even if we don't get in we have backups because we have people in the

[01:23:35] [SPEAKER_02]: courtroom that will we'll be able to get some info from so i guess just tune in but i'm confident

[01:23:43] [SPEAKER_02]: we're gonna get in anyways thanks very much for listening bye thanks so much for listening to the

[01:23:50] [SPEAKER_01]: murder sheet if you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover please email us at murder sheet

[01:23:57] [SPEAKER_01]: at gmail.com if you have actionable information about an unsolved crime please report it to the

[01:24:05] [SPEAKER_02]: appropriate authorities if you're interested in joining our patreon that's available at www.patreon.com

[01:24:16] [SPEAKER_02]: slash murder sheet if you want to tip us a bit of money for records requests you can do so at

[01:24:23] [SPEAKER_02]: www.buymeacoffee.com slash murder sheet we very much appreciate any support special thanks to kevin

[01:24:33] [SPEAKER_01]: tyler greenley who composed the music for the murder sheet and who you can find on the web at kevin tg

[01:24:40] [SPEAKER_02]: dot com if you're looking to talk with other listeners about a case we've covered you can join

[01:24:47] [SPEAKER_02]: the murder sheet discussion group on facebook we mostly focus our time on research and reporting

[01:24:53] [SPEAKER_02]: so we're not on social media much we do try to check our email account but we ask for patience

[01:24:59] [SPEAKER_02]: as we often receive a lot of messages thanks again for listening thanks so much for sticking

[01:25:09] [SPEAKER_02]: around to the end of this murder sheet episode just as a quick post row ad we wanted to tell you again

[01:25:14] [SPEAKER_02]: about our friend jason blair's wonderful silver linings handbook this show is phenomenal whether you

[01:25:22] [SPEAKER_02]: are interested in true crime the criminal justice system law mental health stories of marginalized

[01:25:28] [SPEAKER_02]: people overcoming tragedy well-being like he does it all this is a show for you he has so many different

[01:25:36] [SPEAKER_02]: conversations with interesting people people whose loved ones have gone missing uh other uh podcasters

[01:25:43] [SPEAKER_02]: in the true crime space just interesting people with interesting life experiences and jason's gift i think

[01:25:51] [SPEAKER_02]: is just being an incredibly empathetic and compassionate interviewer where he's really letting his guests

[01:25:56] [SPEAKER_02]: tell their stories and asking really interesting questions along the way guiding those conversations

[01:26:01] [SPEAKER_02]: forward i would liken it to like you're kind of almost sitting down with friends and sort of just hearing

[01:26:07] [SPEAKER_02]: these fascinating tales that you wouldn't get otherwise because he just has that ability as an

[01:26:12] [SPEAKER_02]: interviewer to tease it out and really make it interesting for his audience on a personal level jason is

[01:26:19] [SPEAKER_01]: frankly a great guy yes he's been a really good friend to us and so it's it's fun to be able to hit

[01:26:26] [SPEAKER_01]: a button on my phone and get a little dose of jason talking to people whenever i want it's a really

[01:26:32] [SPEAKER_01]: terrific show we uh really recommend it highly yeah i think i think our audience will like it and you've

[01:26:37] [SPEAKER_02]: already met jason if you listen consistently to our show he's been on our show a couple times we've been

[01:26:41] [SPEAKER_02]: on his show uh he's a terrific guest i i say this in one of our ads about him but i literally always i'm

[01:26:47] [SPEAKER_02]: like oh yeah i remember when jason said this that really resonated like i do quote him in in in

[01:26:52] [SPEAKER_02]: conversations sometimes because he really has a good grasp of different complicated issues to me all

[01:26:57] [SPEAKER_02]: the time i do i'm like remember when jason said this that was so right so i mean i think if we're

[01:27:01] [SPEAKER_02]: doing that i think and you like us you you i think you should give it a shot give it a try i think you'll

[01:27:05] [SPEAKER_02]: really enjoy it and again he does a range of different topics but they all kind of have the

[01:27:09] [SPEAKER_02]: similar theme of compassion of overcoming suffering of dealing with suffering of mental health

[01:27:15] [SPEAKER_02]: wellness things like that there's kind of a common through line of compassion and empathy there that

[01:27:21] [SPEAKER_02]: i think we find very nice and we work on a lot of stories that can be very tough and we try to bring

[01:27:27] [SPEAKER_02]: compassion and empathy to it but this is something that almost can be like if you're kind of feeling a

[01:27:31] [SPEAKER_02]: little burned out by true crime i think this is kind of the life-affirming stuff that um can can be

[01:27:37] [SPEAKER_01]: nice to listen to in a podcast it's it's compassionate it's affirming but i i also want to emphasize

[01:27:44] [SPEAKER_01]: it's smart uh people jason is is a very intelligent articulate person this is a smart show but it's

[01:27:53] [SPEAKER_01]: an accessible show i think you'll all really uh enjoy it yeah and he's got a great community that

[01:27:58] [SPEAKER_02]: that he's building so we're really excited to be a part of that we're really we're fans of the show

[01:28:01] [SPEAKER_02]: we love it and we would strongly encourage you all just check it out download some episodes listen i

[01:28:06] [SPEAKER_02]: think you'll you'll understand what we're talking about once you do but anyways you can listen to uh

[01:28:11] [SPEAKER_02]: the silver linings handbook wherever you listen to podcasts wherever you listen to podcasts very easy

[01:28:16] [SPEAKER_01]: to find absolutely

[01:28:17] [SPEAKER_02]: you

[01:28:17] you

[01:28:17] you

[01:28:17] you

[01:28:17] you