The Delphi Murders: State's Response to Defendant's Memorandum of Law

[00:00:00] [SPEAKER_01]: Content Warning This episode includes discussion of the murder of two children.

[00:00:06] [SPEAKER_02]: Today on the murder sheet, we're going to discuss some of the latest filings in the

[00:00:09] [SPEAKER_02]: Delphi Murders case. This of course refers to the case involving the murders of 13-year-old

[00:00:15] [SPEAKER_02]: Abigail Williams and 14-year-old Liberty German in the city of Delphi, Indiana

[00:00:20] [SPEAKER_02]: in 2017. This case went sort of, you know, had no resolution for quite a while but then

[00:00:29] [SPEAKER_02]: a few years ago Richard Allen was arrested and charged with those murders and we've

[00:00:36] [SPEAKER_02]: sort of been in the sort of legal wrangling pretrial phase ever since. So we're going

[00:00:41] [SPEAKER_02]: to be talking about the documents that just dropped in this case. My name is Anya

[00:00:46] [SPEAKER_02]: Cain. I'm a journalist.

[00:00:48] [SPEAKER_01]: And I'm Kevin Greenlee. I'm an attorney.

[00:00:51] [SPEAKER_01]: And this is the murder sheet.

[00:00:52] [SPEAKER_01]: We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews and deep dives into

[00:00:58] [SPEAKER_01]: murder cases.

[00:00:59] [SPEAKER_01]: We're the murder sheet.

[00:01:00] [SPEAKER_02]: And this is the Delphi Murders. States Response to Defendants Memorandum of Law.

[00:01:51] [SPEAKER_01]: So I think the most interesting filing that came out today was the states response

[00:01:55] [SPEAKER_01]: to defendants memorandum of law.

[00:01:59] [SPEAKER_02]: Absolutely.

[00:01:59] [SPEAKER_01]: So what is this all about?

[00:02:01] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, this essentially to boil it down is about whether or not the defense's theory of

[00:02:06] [SPEAKER_02]: odinism being the culprit, the cult of odinists in the woods sacrificing the girls,

[00:02:11] [SPEAKER_02]: whether or not they can bring that into the trial.

[00:02:14] [SPEAKER_02]: They want, you know, let's go over that.

[00:02:16] [SPEAKER_02]: That's not just a given.

[00:02:18] [SPEAKER_02]: I think people sometimes have the sense of like, well, I've seen on courtroom

[00:02:22] [SPEAKER_02]: dramas the defense can essentially just do whatever.

[00:02:24] [SPEAKER_02]: And the defense certainly has more leeway than the prosecution and what they can

[00:02:29] [SPEAKER_02]: say. But there has to be some level of evidence for what they're saying.

[00:02:32] [SPEAKER_02]: They can't just say, hey, Bigfoot did it right.

[00:02:35] [SPEAKER_02]: There's got to be standards.

[00:02:37] [SPEAKER_02]: So it's not a given at this point whether or not odinism will even come in.

[00:02:41] [SPEAKER_01]: So in more particularly, not just odinism, the defense wants to go into the

[00:02:46] [SPEAKER_01]: trial and stand in front of the jury and say, you know, Brad Holder did this

[00:02:51] [SPEAKER_01]: or what have you.

[00:02:53] [SPEAKER_02]: They want to accuse other people who have not been charged.

[00:02:56] [SPEAKER_01]: Third parties.

[00:02:57] [SPEAKER_01]: So that's what this is about.

[00:02:59] [SPEAKER_01]: Of course, that was we had a hearing about this a few weeks ago.

[00:03:03] [SPEAKER_01]: And since then, the defense has come out with a filing saying, well, let

[00:03:10] [SPEAKER_01]: me explain it this way.

[00:03:12] [SPEAKER_01]: Everybody on both sides agrees that you can't go into court and accuse a

[00:03:18] [SPEAKER_01]: third party unless you reach some sort of level or standard.

[00:03:23] [SPEAKER_01]: Now, since the prosecution doesn't want the defense to do this, they are

[00:03:28] [SPEAKER_01]: going to try to argue that that standard is very high and the defense

[00:03:32] [SPEAKER_01]: is going to try to argue no, that standard is very, very low.

[00:03:38] [SPEAKER_01]: And so I think, correct me if I'm wrong, I think it was like last week

[00:03:42] [SPEAKER_01]: the defense filed a memorandum explaining their argument that the

[00:03:46] [SPEAKER_01]: standard we need to meet to be able to go into court and accuse Brad

[00:03:51] [SPEAKER_01]: Holder of murder is a low one.

[00:03:53] [SPEAKER_02]: Yes.

[00:03:54] [SPEAKER_01]: And so now the prosecution is filing a motion where they make an

[00:03:59] [SPEAKER_01]: argument, no, the standard you need to meet in order to go into court and

[00:04:05] [SPEAKER_01]: accuse this man of murder is a high one.

[00:04:08] [SPEAKER_02]: Yes.

[00:04:08] [SPEAKER_02]: The defense wants the standard to be a few inches from the ground so

[00:04:11] [SPEAKER_02]: they can just sort of step over it.

[00:04:13] [SPEAKER_02]: And the prosecution wants them to have to pull vault over it.

[00:04:17] [SPEAKER_02]: So that's kind of where they're coming from.

[00:04:19] [SPEAKER_02]: Both sides arguing personally, I'm almost curious as to why the

[00:04:23] [SPEAKER_02]: prosecution even wants Odinism out given the number of issues with

[00:04:27] [SPEAKER_02]: that theory, but that's neither here nor there.

[00:04:30] [SPEAKER_02]: It's their job to try to fight the defense just like it's the

[00:04:34] [SPEAKER_02]: defense's job to try to fight the prosecution.

[00:04:36] [SPEAKER_02]: So I guess there's some adversarial stuff going on there.

[00:04:38] [SPEAKER_02]: And I'm sure there's a bit of concern about if they happen to land

[00:04:42] [SPEAKER_02]: a particularly conspiratorial jury, will they be so titillated by

[00:04:46] [SPEAKER_02]: the Odinism theory that they'll just go with that?

[00:04:48] [SPEAKER_02]: I guess that's maybe.

[00:04:49] [SPEAKER_01]: Or people be confused by it.

[00:04:51] [SPEAKER_01]: Right.

[00:04:52] [SPEAKER_01]: So it's a reasonable fear.

[00:04:53] [SPEAKER_02]: I think that's fair.

[00:04:54] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I think that's fair.

[00:04:55] [SPEAKER_02]: Again though, I also think that it could end up backfiring if it

[00:04:59] [SPEAKER_02]: gets into the point where a jury will be like what and then just

[00:05:03] [SPEAKER_02]: sort of rule accordingly.

[00:05:06] [SPEAKER_01]: So in a section of this memorandum, prosecutor Nick McClelland actually

[00:05:11] [SPEAKER_01]: articulates what he thinks the standard should be to be able to go

[00:05:14] [SPEAKER_01]: into court and accuse a third party like Brad Holder.

[00:05:17] [SPEAKER_01]: So let's save my voice.

[00:05:20] [SPEAKER_01]: Please read this.

[00:05:22] [SPEAKER_02]: Yes, I will read this.

[00:05:22] [SPEAKER_01]: She's quoting from the memorandum file today.

[00:05:25] [SPEAKER_02]: Quote, in order to present evidence in relation to a third party at

[00:05:29] [SPEAKER_02]: trial, the defense must show a direct material connection between

[00:05:32] [SPEAKER_02]: the third party and the crime.

[00:05:33] [SPEAKER_02]: The connection must be based on more than hearsay, speculation,

[00:05:37] [SPEAKER_02]: rumors, conjecture, or theory.

[00:05:39] [SPEAKER_02]: It must be based on reliable evidence that draws a material

[00:05:43] [SPEAKER_02]: connection between the party and the crime.

[00:05:45] [SPEAKER_02]: The Indiana Supreme court summed up this longstanding principle as follows.

[00:05:50] [SPEAKER_02]: In the context of third party mode of evidence, these rules are

[00:05:53] [SPEAKER_02]: grounded in the widely accepted principle that before evidence of a

[00:05:57] [SPEAKER_02]: third party is admissible, the defendant must show some connection

[00:06:00] [SPEAKER_02]: between the third party and the crime.

[00:06:02] [SPEAKER_02]: End quote.

[00:06:03] [SPEAKER_01]: And that last line that McClelland is quoting is actually taken from

[00:06:08] [SPEAKER_01]: a decision in Pelley versus the state of Indiana.

[00:06:11] [SPEAKER_02]: And I was really proud.

[00:06:12] [SPEAKER_02]: Kevin actually went through and read that case so he could be more

[00:06:16] [SPEAKER_02]: informed to speak about it right now.

[00:06:17] [SPEAKER_02]: So, uh, even though he's not feeling well, he still took the time

[00:06:20] [SPEAKER_02]: to do that and I'm very appreciative.

[00:06:23] [SPEAKER_01]: It's, it's an interesting case, but these things get to be a little

[00:06:30] [SPEAKER_01]: confusing because when they say there needs to be some connection

[00:06:35] [SPEAKER_01]: between the third party and the crime, what exactly does that mean?

[00:06:41] [SPEAKER_01]: What constitutes some connection?

[00:06:46] [SPEAKER_01]: And is there a way where maybe what one person thinks, well, this seems

[00:06:50] [SPEAKER_01]: to be some connection and another person might say, well, no, that's

[00:06:54] [SPEAKER_01]: not enough of a connection.

[00:06:55] [SPEAKER_01]: It can get very confusing and lawyers spend an awful lot of time

[00:07:00] [SPEAKER_01]: arguing over what things mean.

[00:07:03] [SPEAKER_01]: And so we could spend a lot of time right now arguing

[00:07:05] [SPEAKER_01]: about what some connection means.

[00:07:08] [SPEAKER_01]: But instead I think it is, it is useful to actually go back

[00:07:14] [SPEAKER_01]: and look at some cases.

[00:07:16] [SPEAKER_01]: Let's look at some cases where the court said, oh, the defense wanted

[00:07:21] [SPEAKER_01]: to bring this information into a trial.

[00:07:24] [SPEAKER_01]: They say there's some connection, but no, we don't think that rises

[00:07:29] [SPEAKER_01]: to the level of being worth bringing into court.

[00:07:33] [SPEAKER_01]: Let's look at where they say there, there's an insufficient connection.

[00:07:36] [SPEAKER_01]: And let's look at some instances where they say, yes, there is a connection.

[00:07:40] [SPEAKER_01]: Now in this memorandum, which we'll get to soon, McClieland actually

[00:07:47] [SPEAKER_01]: uses some examples of cases where the court found there was a connection.

[00:07:51] [SPEAKER_01]: This Peli case, which Anya mentioned I read, actually had a couple

[00:07:55] [SPEAKER_01]: of examples where the court found there wasn't enough of a connection.

[00:08:00] [SPEAKER_01]: So I'm going to ask Anya to actually read an excerpt from the Peli case

[00:08:06] [SPEAKER_01]: where they're going to be discussing the case with a feel there wasn't

[00:08:09] [SPEAKER_01]: enough of a connection.

[00:08:11] [SPEAKER_02]: Sure.

[00:08:12] [SPEAKER_02]: Quote, in April 1990 Peli told the detective that murder victim Bob used

[00:08:18] [SPEAKER_02]: to work for a Florida bank and that Bob may have been killed because

[00:08:23] [SPEAKER_02]: someone found out about money laundering at the bank, a million

[00:08:26] [SPEAKER_02]: dollars in cash was allegedly missing from the bank and Bob was called

[00:08:31] [SPEAKER_02]: into work in the middle of the night.

[00:08:33] [SPEAKER_02]: Bob was responsible for finding the missing money and was in charge

[00:08:37] [SPEAKER_02]: of the computers at the bank.

[00:08:39] [SPEAKER_02]: After this incident, the family suddenly moved to Indiana.

[00:08:42] [SPEAKER_02]: The trial court determined that this evidence was too attenuated because

[00:08:46] [SPEAKER_02]: it leaves utter speculation and sustained the state's objection.

[00:08:52] [SPEAKER_01]: End quote.

[00:08:54] [SPEAKER_01]: What do you make of that?

[00:08:56] [SPEAKER_02]: So essentially the defense in this situation, the defense for Peli

[00:09:01] [SPEAKER_02]: was speculating with zero proof that, well, allegedly this guy maybe

[00:09:06] [SPEAKER_02]: stole some money or maybe there was money laundering going on.

[00:09:09] [SPEAKER_02]: These just, they're just making these claims out of thin air.

[00:09:14] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:09:14] [SPEAKER_01]: We heard he used to work for a bank.

[00:09:17] [SPEAKER_01]: What do you think folks?

[00:09:18] [SPEAKER_02]: And like, maybe he left and it's like, even if all of those things

[00:09:21] [SPEAKER_02]: were true, he can be called into work in the middle of the night

[00:09:25] [SPEAKER_02]: and be working with computers in the bank and then move to Indiana

[00:09:28] [SPEAKER_02]: and not be involved in some massive money laundering scheme.

[00:09:31] [SPEAKER_02]: That's not, that's not a given.

[00:09:33] [SPEAKER_02]: It's a lot of logical leaps and it's more interesting.

[00:09:36] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, it's certainly interesting and like sounds, Ooh, wow.

[00:09:40] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm not even sure there's proof that he worked at a bank.

[00:09:43] [SPEAKER_02]: Right?

[00:09:44] [SPEAKER_02]: So that's pretty weak and I can understand why the state said

[00:09:49] [SPEAKER_02]: that should not be allowed in.

[00:09:51] [SPEAKER_02]: I can also understand why.

[00:09:54] [SPEAKER_01]: Speculation without proof and building something up that maybe

[00:09:59] [SPEAKER_01]: sounds impressive, but then we say that see that it's built with

[00:10:04] [SPEAKER_01]: bricks of sand, maybe it's a little bit less impressive.

[00:10:07] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:10:07] [SPEAKER_01]: So that's something they thought, no, this didn't rise to the level.

[00:10:11] [SPEAKER_01]: This should not be brought in.

[00:10:12] [SPEAKER_02]: And let me just like, it's like stuff like this makes our animal

[00:10:16] [SPEAKER_02]: brains happy because we all love our little connections, right?

[00:10:18] [SPEAKER_02]: We all love, Ooh, yeah.

[00:10:20] [SPEAKER_02]: Like it's all part of the conspiracy, the money laundering.

[00:10:22] [SPEAKER_02]: Like you can feel yourself almost like, okay, yeah, yeah.

[00:10:25] [SPEAKER_02]: That sounds like it's out of a movie, but life is not like a movie

[00:10:28] [SPEAKER_02]: and we need evidence.

[00:10:29] [SPEAKER_02]: We can't just say things that sound good.

[00:10:31] [SPEAKER_02]: And so if that's all there is, then that's pretty weak.

[00:10:36] [SPEAKER_02]: Even if it sounds good, even if it sounds kind of exciting,

[00:10:39] [SPEAKER_02]: like it's building to something, that's not what law and what happens

[00:10:45] [SPEAKER_02]: in court is not about what sounds like it would make a good movie.

[00:10:48] [SPEAKER_02]: It's about what there is evidence for.

[00:10:50] [SPEAKER_01]: So now we're going to hear about another case where, cited in Pelly,

[00:10:55] [SPEAKER_01]: where the court found that there wasn't sufficient evidence

[00:10:58] [SPEAKER_01]: to bring this into court.

[00:11:00] [SPEAKER_01]: And then we'll hear some cases that McClellan cited where he,

[00:11:03] [SPEAKER_01]: well, it was found that there was sufficient evidence.

[00:11:05] [SPEAKER_01]: And then we can talk about where the odonism stuff might fall in.

[00:11:10] [SPEAKER_02]: Quote, in Lashbrook v State, where the defendant wished to present

[00:11:14] [SPEAKER_02]: evidence that a third party had said the victim was going to die.

[00:11:17] [SPEAKER_02]: We held that the defendant presents no material evidence

[00:11:22] [SPEAKER_02]: that the third party was connected to the crime.

[00:11:24] [SPEAKER_02]: The phrase allegedly uttered by the third party does not tend to show

[00:11:28] [SPEAKER_02]: that he committed the murder, end quote.

[00:11:30] [SPEAKER_02]: This is pretty clear cut.

[00:11:32] [SPEAKER_02]: Okay.

[00:11:33] [SPEAKER_02]: If you've ever talked to human beings, you know that people overstate

[00:11:38] [SPEAKER_02]: things, say bad things sometimes that does not make them a murderer.

[00:11:43] [SPEAKER_02]: In some cases, maybe they say something bad and then they do turn out to be a murderer.

[00:11:49] [SPEAKER_02]: But usually there's more evidence linking that.

[00:11:52] [SPEAKER_02]: You know, like for example, if you've ever talked to your friend

[00:11:55] [SPEAKER_02]: and they're really mad at their boyfriend about something,

[00:11:57] [SPEAKER_02]: they might say, I'm going to kill him.

[00:11:59] [SPEAKER_02]: Are they really going to murder him in cold blood?

[00:12:02] [SPEAKER_02]: No.

[00:12:03] [SPEAKER_02]: What they're saying is I'm very angry with my partner right now,

[00:12:06] [SPEAKER_02]: and I'm probably going to yell at him.

[00:12:07] [SPEAKER_02]: So that's a situation where I can understand if that's all they had.

[00:12:14] [SPEAKER_02]: Some other third party said, well, this guy's going to die.

[00:12:17] [SPEAKER_02]: Maybe they're mad.

[00:12:19] [SPEAKER_02]: Maybe they think they're acting recklessly.

[00:12:21] [SPEAKER_02]: It's hard to know from this small snippet, but that alone, while it's

[00:12:26] [SPEAKER_02]: certainly worth looking at is certainly not enough to lead to that person being

[00:12:30] [SPEAKER_02]: dragged into trial in my opinion.

[00:12:33] [SPEAKER_01]: So again, we have a case where wild talk about possibly missing money

[00:12:37] [SPEAKER_01]: from a bank, that wasn't enough.

[00:12:41] [SPEAKER_01]: This idol comment that someone made, that wasn't enough.

[00:12:44] [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.

[00:12:45] [SPEAKER_01]: So then let's look at some things where it was found that there was

[00:12:48] [SPEAKER_01]: enough of connection to bring it in and prosecutor McClellan in his

[00:12:52] [SPEAKER_01]: memorandum actually gives examples of some cases where courts held that

[00:12:57] [SPEAKER_01]: third party information should have been allowed in by the trial judge.

[00:13:02] [SPEAKER_01]: And Anya is going to share the first example now.

[00:13:06] [SPEAKER_02]: Quote, a case cited by the defense in their memorandum is very instructive.

[00:13:11] [SPEAKER_02]: The case coincidentally named Alan V.

[00:13:14] [SPEAKER_02]: State involved a robbery and triple murder at an Osco drug store in South Bend.

[00:13:20] [SPEAKER_02]: The court of appeals ruled that it was reversible error not to allow

[00:13:24] [SPEAKER_02]: the testimony of a witness Bethel regarding a third party suspect Crenshaw.

[00:13:30] [SPEAKER_02]: Bethel testified outside the presence of the jury to the following

[00:13:34] [SPEAKER_02]: that he and Crenshaw had cased the Osco's store several days before the

[00:13:40] [SPEAKER_02]: murders in anticipation of robbing it.

[00:13:42] [SPEAKER_02]: That Bethel on the very morning of the murders observed Crenshaw only

[00:13:46] [SPEAKER_02]: blocks away from the Osco's and coming from the direction of the

[00:13:50] [SPEAKER_02]: Osco's and then heard Crenshaw say he had just got some money and

[00:13:54] [SPEAKER_02]: people were killed, that Crenshaw paid cash for hotel rooms the

[00:13:58] [SPEAKER_02]: evening following the robbery.

[00:14:00] [SPEAKER_02]: And finally, on the evening of the murders, Crenshaw told Bethel

[00:14:04] [SPEAKER_02]: that the situation at Osco's had gone bad and three people were dead.

[00:14:08] [SPEAKER_02]: End quote.

[00:14:10] [SPEAKER_01]: So there we have someone basically making incriminating statements with

[00:14:17] [SPEAKER_01]: lots of solid details and backing evidence behind them.

[00:14:22] [SPEAKER_01]: So that does seem pretty clear.

[00:14:24] [SPEAKER_01]: That should be included.

[00:14:26] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes.

[00:14:26] [SPEAKER_01]: And I think it's very easy for us to see how that is different

[00:14:29] [SPEAKER_01]: from the idle talk about the bank.

[00:14:31] [SPEAKER_02]: Or the idle saying someone's going to die.

[00:14:34] [SPEAKER_02]: Let me, when I'm looking at this, all of this is coming from Bethel.

[00:14:39] [SPEAKER_02]: So, I mean, I don't it's possible that he's just lying or trying to get a good

[00:14:44] [SPEAKER_02]: deal, but nonetheless, all of this is detailed and granular enough that it

[00:14:49] [SPEAKER_02]: should have been allowed in and the state would have had the opportunity to

[00:14:53] [SPEAKER_02]: cross examine Bethel and if they felt he was just stating this or whatever

[00:14:56] [SPEAKER_02]: to help out his friend, they could have, you know, whoever was actually

[00:15:01] [SPEAKER_02]: the defendant in this case, they could have done that.

[00:15:04] [SPEAKER_02]: It obviously should have been allowed in.

[00:15:08] Yes.

[00:15:09] [SPEAKER_01]: McClellan gives an example of another case.

[00:15:12] [SPEAKER_02]: Quote, in Joyner v.

[00:15:14] [SPEAKER_02]: State, the Indiana Supreme Court ruled that it was error not to allow

[00:15:18] [SPEAKER_02]: third party evidence regarding a coworker of the murder victim.

[00:15:22] [SPEAKER_02]: However, the excluded evidence that would have been admissible at trial

[00:15:26] [SPEAKER_02]: consisted of proof that the third party suspect was married and having

[00:15:30] [SPEAKER_02]: an affair with the victim, had sexual relations with the victim the evening

[00:15:34] [SPEAKER_02]: before her disappearance, had argued with her the day of her disappearance,

[00:15:39] [SPEAKER_02]: was tardy to work the day after her disappearance, had falsified his

[00:15:43] [SPEAKER_02]: time card the day of her disappearance and was a 98% match to the hair

[00:15:47] [SPEAKER_02]: found inside of the plastic bag found over the victim's head when her

[00:15:51] [SPEAKER_02]: body was discovered, hair that had been determined not to belong to

[00:15:55] [SPEAKER_02]: either the victim or the defendant.

[00:15:57] [SPEAKER_02]: End quote.

[00:15:59] [SPEAKER_01]: So again.

[00:15:59] [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, yeah.

[00:16:00] [SPEAKER_01]: There seems to be pretty solid evidence there of a pretty big connection

[00:16:06] [SPEAKER_01]: between third party suspects and the actual crime.

[00:16:12] [SPEAKER_01]: Certainly more connections than we saw with the bank example.

[00:16:15] [SPEAKER_02]: That's very true.

[00:16:16] [SPEAKER_02]: And again, in this situation you could say, well, maybe his hair was on her

[00:16:20] [SPEAKER_02]: because it was just on her body and then it got tangled up in the bag.

[00:16:25] [SPEAKER_02]: It's not saying one person's guilty or not, but the state has the ability

[00:16:28] [SPEAKER_02]: to make those claims in their closing statement or do cross-examination

[00:16:31] [SPEAKER_02]: around this.

[00:16:32] [SPEAKER_02]: Either way, the defense should be allowed to present this as evidence

[00:16:36] [SPEAKER_02]: because there's a lot there.

[00:16:38] [SPEAKER_02]: You have access to the victim.

[00:16:40] [SPEAKER_02]: You have possible motive with an argument.

[00:16:43] [SPEAKER_02]: You have at the very least there's some DNA there that could be

[00:16:49] [SPEAKER_02]: inconclusive but potentially salient for a jury to hear.

[00:16:54] [SPEAKER_01]: So I'm curious.

[00:16:55] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to ask you a question that I suspect I might have an inkling

[00:16:59] [SPEAKER_01]: as to how you may respond to it.

[00:17:01] [SPEAKER_01]: Would you say Anya, that the Odinism theory in which the defense blames

[00:17:07] [SPEAKER_01]: Brad Holder and others for these murders, would you say that's more

[00:17:11] [SPEAKER_01]: like the vague conspiracy talk surrounding the bank that was ruled to

[00:17:17] [SPEAKER_01]: be inadmissible?

[00:17:18] [SPEAKER_01]: Do you think it's more like that or do you think it's like more like

[00:17:21] [SPEAKER_01]: very specific examples given in Joiner and the other case?

[00:17:27] [SPEAKER_02]: On the sliding scale of idle talk to Joiner, it's much closer to idle

[00:17:33] [SPEAKER_02]: talk, in my opinion.

[00:17:34] [SPEAKER_02]: And I'll be honest about why.

[00:17:37] [SPEAKER_02]: When we're looking at this, there is almost, there's so little actually

[00:17:47] [SPEAKER_02]: linking Holder, Westfall, Fields at all to the crimes.

[00:17:54] [SPEAKER_02]: There's possibly tangential links between Holder and Abby Williams through

[00:18:01] [SPEAKER_02]: his son Logan, possibly dating her.

[00:18:05] [SPEAKER_02]: But aside from a possible a few meetings, I mean that man had an

[00:18:09] [SPEAKER_02]: alibi through work.

[00:18:10] [SPEAKER_02]: He had an alibi through the gym.

[00:18:12] [SPEAKER_02]: The defense is tying themselves in knots trying to push back the time

[00:18:15] [SPEAKER_02]: of death.

[00:18:17] [SPEAKER_02]: But I don't really know how realistic that is, frankly.

[00:18:22] [SPEAKER_02]: And, you know, I mean, Amber Holder did make comments about, oh, Holder

[00:18:26] [SPEAKER_02]: when he was drinking would say, you know, stuff happened.

[00:18:29] [SPEAKER_02]: You know, I don't know how much stock to put in that, frankly.

[00:18:34] [SPEAKER_02]: You'd need more.

[00:18:36] [SPEAKER_02]: You'd need a lot more.

[00:18:37] [SPEAKER_02]: If Amber Holder was saying something to the effect of, well, I saw

[00:18:41] [SPEAKER_02]: Brad Holder come out of the woods that day and I asked him what

[00:18:44] [SPEAKER_02]: is he doing?

[00:18:44] [SPEAKER_02]: And he said that, well, maybe we'd have something there.

[00:18:47] [SPEAKER_02]: But it's also I don't know.

[00:18:50] [SPEAKER_02]: It doesn't really get at the heart of anything.

[00:18:53] [SPEAKER_02]: It seems like it's some interesting things and I can certainly

[00:18:55] [SPEAKER_02]: understand why investigators followed it.

[00:18:57] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, I don't think that's unreasonable.

[00:19:00] [SPEAKER_02]: But as far as when you're actually getting into like should it be

[00:19:04] [SPEAKER_02]: brought up at trial?

[00:19:06] [SPEAKER_02]: I do think it's more it's more on the idle side of things.

[00:19:09] [SPEAKER_02]: What do you think?

[00:19:10] [SPEAKER_02]: Am I being too hard on the defense here?

[00:19:12] [SPEAKER_01]: No, I don't think so.

[00:19:13] [SPEAKER_01]: To me, this is much closer to the talk about the bank where they

[00:19:17] [SPEAKER_01]: take some information which may or may not even be true and build

[00:19:22] [SPEAKER_01]: an elaborate theory around it, a theory that has no real solid

[00:19:27] [SPEAKER_01]: evidence to support it in my view.

[00:19:30] [SPEAKER_01]: But now that we've shared our views, why don't we hear what

[00:19:33] [SPEAKER_01]: Prosecutor McCliedon had to say in the closing windup of his memorandum?

[00:19:37] [SPEAKER_02]: Sure.

[00:19:41] [SPEAKER_02]: As the August 1st hearing demonstrated, the defense has only

[00:19:45] [SPEAKER_02]: offered up speculation supported by conjecture and buttressed

[00:19:48] [SPEAKER_02]: by what ifs.

[00:19:50] [SPEAKER_02]: Without evidence, material or otherwise, that these were

[00:19:54] [SPEAKER_02]: ritualistic murders, the defense speculates that various

[00:19:56] [SPEAKER_02]: social media posts by Brad Holder suggest he could be

[00:20:00] [SPEAKER_02]: interested in Odin-based rituals and therefore could be

[00:20:04] [SPEAKER_02]: connected to the crime scene.

[00:20:05] [SPEAKER_02]: Then the defense adds the conjecture that since Elvis

[00:20:08] [SPEAKER_02]: Fields and Holder have vaguely similar social media posts

[00:20:11] [SPEAKER_02]: and both might have a passing acquaintance with a man named

[00:20:14] [SPEAKER_02]: Johnny Messer, then perhaps Fields may possibly know Holder.

[00:20:19] [SPEAKER_02]: The defense then adds a what if unsupported by evidence, i.e.

[00:20:23] [SPEAKER_02]: what if the crime took place on the following day in order

[00:20:26] [SPEAKER_02]: to get around the inconvenient fact that Holder has an

[00:20:28] [SPEAKER_02]: alibi for the time when the murders, according to the

[00:20:31] [SPEAKER_02]: police investigation, occurred.

[00:20:32] [SPEAKER_02]: The defense continues down this path of speculation as it

[00:20:36] [SPEAKER_02]: relates to the other individuals listed in the motion

[00:20:38] [SPEAKER_02]: in Limonais, failing to tie any of the individuals to

[00:20:41] [SPEAKER_02]: the crime.

[00:20:42] [SPEAKER_02]: The state further showed through irrefutable evidence

[00:20:45] [SPEAKER_02]: that none of the third party suspects listed by the

[00:20:48] [SPEAKER_02]: defense were in the area of the crime scene on the day

[00:20:50] [SPEAKER_02]: of the murders and that none of them have any ties to

[00:20:53] [SPEAKER_02]: the crime scene.

[00:20:54] [SPEAKER_02]: The state was able to merely because law enforcement in

[00:20:57] [SPEAKER_02]: the days, weeks, and months following the murders pursued

[00:21:01] [SPEAKER_02]: and followed up on various tips, rumors, and theories

[00:21:04] [SPEAKER_02]: does not mean that the trier of fact should be misled,

[00:21:08] [SPEAKER_02]: confused or distracted by tips, rumors, and theories

[00:21:10] [SPEAKER_02]: unsupported by immiscible evidence.

[00:21:13] [SPEAKER_02]: As the August 1st hearing made clear, the probative value

[00:21:16] [SPEAKER_02]: of the third party evidence offered by the defense is

[00:21:18] [SPEAKER_02]: greatly outweighed by unfair prejudice, confusion of

[00:21:21] [SPEAKER_02]: the issues, and the potential to mislead the jury.

[00:21:28] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I mean.

[00:21:31] [SPEAKER_01]: Judging by the ease with which he kind of deconstructed

[00:21:37] [SPEAKER_01]: the Odism theory there pretty easily.

[00:21:41] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it goes back.

[00:21:42] [SPEAKER_01]: It would be interesting to see him take this apart

[00:21:44] [SPEAKER_01]: in front of a jury and if I was Baldwin or Rosie,

[00:21:48] [SPEAKER_01]: I might prefer for it not to be included because

[00:21:50] [SPEAKER_01]: I think he could probably tear this theory apart

[00:21:53] [SPEAKER_01]: pretty easily in front of a jury.

[00:21:55] [SPEAKER_02]: That was brutal.

[00:21:56] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean that was truly well done.

[00:21:59] [SPEAKER_02]: What he says about the what ifs essentially is

[00:22:04] [SPEAKER_02]: every time they need to sort of, I guess, if you see this,

[00:22:08] [SPEAKER_02]: if you see their case like stepping stones and

[00:22:13] [SPEAKER_02]: by rules of the game, they're not supposed to touch the water.

[00:22:16] [SPEAKER_02]: They're supposed to elegantly jump from stone to stone

[00:22:19] [SPEAKER_02]: to get further along on their theory.

[00:22:22] [SPEAKER_02]: This feels like in that scenario you have

[00:22:25] [SPEAKER_02]: a kid playing the game and they keep on being like,

[00:22:27] [SPEAKER_02]: let me just cheat on this one and wading through the water

[00:22:29] [SPEAKER_02]: and then standing up on the stone.

[00:22:31] [SPEAKER_02]: They're not really getting there through evidence.

[00:22:33] [SPEAKER_02]: They're not really getting there through testimony.

[00:22:36] [SPEAKER_02]: They're just sort of saying, but believe us on this one.

[00:22:40] [SPEAKER_02]: This could have happened and let's jump to the land

[00:22:43] [SPEAKER_02]: of conclusions like we're in the Phantom Toll booth

[00:22:45] [SPEAKER_02]: that's happening again and again.

[00:22:47] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't find it compelling.

[00:22:48] [SPEAKER_02]: Personally, I feel like this defense has absolutely

[00:22:51] [SPEAKER_02]: torched their credibility with me and you don't have to agree with me.

[00:22:55] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm sure some people still find them credible and that's fine, but

[00:22:58] [SPEAKER_02]: when you're constantly writing checks that you can't cash,

[00:23:01] [SPEAKER_02]: they keep bouncing, then I am going to lose faith

[00:23:05] [SPEAKER_02]: in what you're saying in general.

[00:23:07] [SPEAKER_02]: That has been borne out.

[00:23:09] [SPEAKER_02]: My lack of feeling like I should extend them

[00:23:12] [SPEAKER_02]: more credibility than they do has been borne out again and again

[00:23:16] [SPEAKER_02]: by the fact that they are putting out a very weak theory.

[00:23:20] [SPEAKER_02]: It's a very weak theory.

[00:23:21] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't understand.

[00:23:24] [SPEAKER_02]: I feel like they have better theories sitting around that they can easily use

[00:23:28] [SPEAKER_02]: and I also feel like one should not discount the benefits of simply doing a

[00:23:36] [SPEAKER_02]: tear down the prosecution's case sort of defense.

[00:23:39] [SPEAKER_02]: That can be very effective.

[00:23:41] [SPEAKER_02]: That can get people to reasonable doubt.

[00:23:44] [SPEAKER_02]: Why not just do that?

[00:23:46] [SPEAKER_02]: We've really all had to suffer through this, frankly,

[00:23:51] [SPEAKER_02]: weak nonsense for a long time here and it's kind of embarrassing that we're at the finish line

[00:23:56] [SPEAKER_02]: and we're just seeing this fall apart under the slightest scrutiny.

[00:24:03] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, to give you a sense, this was falling apart

[00:24:06] [SPEAKER_02]: when Kevin and I started looking into it,

[00:24:09] [SPEAKER_02]: when people on the internet started looking into this.

[00:24:12] [SPEAKER_02]: This has been falling apart for a while now.

[00:24:15] [SPEAKER_02]: It's not like they were able to hold it together for that long.

[00:24:18] [SPEAKER_02]: It's surprising that we've gotten this far.

[00:24:21] [SPEAKER_02]: It seems inept to me.

[00:24:22] [SPEAKER_02]: Maybe there's some good reasons behind the scenes why you do it this way.

[00:24:25] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know.

[00:24:26] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't want to assume the worst, but frankly, it's hard not to at this point.

[00:24:34] [SPEAKER_01]: There were a couple of other filings today.

[00:24:37] [SPEAKER_02]: Mysterious filings.

[00:24:39] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes.

[00:24:39] [SPEAKER_01]: These filings are in connection with a subpoena for Dr. Jessica Fidler

[00:24:45] [SPEAKER_01]: to come to Carroll County to give a deposition for the defense.

[00:24:50] [SPEAKER_01]: Let's start with what we don't know.

[00:24:52] [SPEAKER_01]: We do not know what Dr. Fidler's connection to the case is

[00:24:56] [SPEAKER_01]: or why the defense wants her to be deposed.

[00:25:00] [SPEAKER_01]: We do know, though, that in this filing,

[00:25:03] [SPEAKER_01]: she mentions that her fee for a deposition is $350.

[00:25:08] [SPEAKER_01]: That's actually a pretty standard fee for an expert witness.

[00:25:14] [SPEAKER_01]: Fact witnesses typically don't get a fee.

[00:25:17] [SPEAKER_01]: So that strongly indicates that she is an expert witness about something.

[00:25:23] [SPEAKER_01]: So that's basically what little we do know.

[00:25:26] [SPEAKER_01]: We also know that Dr. Fidler is making some very specific

[00:25:30] [SPEAKER_01]: procedural-based objections to this subpoena.

[00:25:34] [SPEAKER_01]: Her lawyer says she should have gotten more notice

[00:25:37] [SPEAKER_01]: that the defense wanted to depose her.

[00:25:39] [SPEAKER_01]: He also points out that under Indiana trial rules,

[00:25:42] [SPEAKER_01]: a person is only required to attend a deposition in a county where they live

[00:25:46] [SPEAKER_01]: or work in, and Dr. Fidler doesn't live or work in Carroll County.

[00:25:51] [SPEAKER_01]: She seems to be based out of Green Castle.

[00:25:53] [SPEAKER_01]: That's to the southwest of Indianapolis.

[00:25:55] [SPEAKER_01]: It's in Putnam County.

[00:25:57] [SPEAKER_01]: I think it's about an hour and 35 minutes south of Delphi.

[00:26:01] [SPEAKER_01]: She works in family medicine, so it's interesting to speculate

[00:26:05] [SPEAKER_01]: about what her expertise is and how it may or may not apply here.

[00:26:09] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm going to guess that her name is actually pronounced Dr. Fidler,

[00:26:12] [SPEAKER_02]: so I guess we'll be on opposite sides of that and we'll see who's right.

[00:26:16] [SPEAKER_02]: But I think it's very interesting.

[00:26:18] [SPEAKER_02]: I guess one thing just to note for everyone who's wondering,

[00:26:21] [SPEAKER_02]: what's the backed witness versus an expert witness?

[00:26:23] [SPEAKER_02]: I think we've talked about this on the show, but let's go over it again.

[00:26:27] [SPEAKER_02]: A fact witness is, let's say, the...

[00:26:31] [SPEAKER_00]: Let's say Anya Stuhl.

[00:26:32] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm going to do a silly example.

[00:26:34] [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, I'll let you do it.

[00:26:35] [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, so I'm going to do a serial example.

[00:26:37] [SPEAKER_02]: Let's say there's a clerk at the local Walmart and they see me make off with a palette

[00:26:45] [SPEAKER_02]: of Lucky Charms.

[00:26:47] [SPEAKER_02]: And that's a fact witness because they're not there because they're an expert in

[00:26:52] [SPEAKER_02]: me or serial theft or whatnot.

[00:26:54] [SPEAKER_02]: They saw what happened and they're going to speak to that in court.

[00:26:58] [SPEAKER_02]: A expert witness would be as if my defense attorney, Kevin Greenlee,

[00:27:02] [SPEAKER_02]: brought in somebody to speak to the psychological ramifications of serial theft and why...

[00:27:08] [SPEAKER_01]: What exactly is wrong with Anya?

[00:27:10] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, what happened to me where I'm doing this and why should you go easy on me?

[00:27:15] [SPEAKER_02]: Because I'm not so bad.

[00:27:17] [SPEAKER_02]: I just made some mistakes.

[00:27:19] [SPEAKER_02]: Or maybe I'm suffering from some sort of serial mania where I actually can't be held

[00:27:23] [SPEAKER_02]: accountable.

[00:27:24] [SPEAKER_02]: I was like a temporary insanity defense.

[00:27:26] [SPEAKER_02]: That's an expert witness.

[00:27:27] [SPEAKER_02]: An expert witness is someone you bring in to speak to the general facts.

[00:27:31] [SPEAKER_02]: They didn't see anything.

[00:27:32] [SPEAKER_02]: They don't have anything directly relevant to the case.

[00:27:36] [SPEAKER_02]: They're just going to morph talk about their expertise.

[00:27:38] [SPEAKER_02]: Now, my question for Kevin that I don't know the answer to is it's not really normal

[00:27:46] [SPEAKER_02]: to subpoena your own...

[00:27:49] [SPEAKER_02]: There's complaints going on here.

[00:27:52] [SPEAKER_02]: Dr. Fiedler is saying, first of all, you need to pay me.

[00:27:57] [SPEAKER_02]: Second of all, I'm not going to just schlep up there.

[00:28:01] [SPEAKER_02]: Give...

[00:28:01] [SPEAKER_02]: Work with me.

[00:28:02] [SPEAKER_02]: Come down to where I am and depose me here.

[00:28:05] [SPEAKER_02]: That doesn't sound like it's the defense's expert witness.

[00:28:09] [SPEAKER_02]: Is that fair to say?

[00:28:10] [SPEAKER_01]: That's fair to say.

[00:28:12] [SPEAKER_01]: And we're both close to someone who's a violinist, so I'm going to keep on

[00:28:18] [SPEAKER_01]: saying Dr. Fiedler until the bitter end.

[00:28:21] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, we're sorry because we're obviously pronouncing her name wrong in some respect

[00:28:26] [SPEAKER_02]: because we're both picking opposite ones.

[00:28:28] [SPEAKER_02]: But let us know if you happen to know the pronunciation.

[00:28:32] [SPEAKER_02]: And yeah, this sounds like it's either a prosecution witness or a defense witness

[00:28:37] [SPEAKER_02]: where the relationship has totally collapsed.

[00:28:40] [SPEAKER_02]: So I don't know which but it is odd to a family doctor.

[00:28:46] [SPEAKER_02]: You would wonder what they would have to say in this case.

[00:28:53] [SPEAKER_00]: Yes.

[00:28:54] [SPEAKER_01]: I want to apologize for my voice.

[00:28:57] [SPEAKER_01]: I went to Bacon Fest, which we can talk about.

[00:29:00] [SPEAKER_01]: It was awesome.

[00:29:01] [SPEAKER_01]: And while I was there towards the end, I started sneezing a bit.

[00:29:05] [SPEAKER_01]: And then the next day, this.

[00:29:08] [SPEAKER_01]: But you're fine.

[00:29:09] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm fine and...

[00:29:10] [SPEAKER_01]: But you were fortified with bacon.

[00:29:11] [SPEAKER_02]: I was fortified with bacon.

[00:29:13] [SPEAKER_02]: I feel like you...

[00:29:13] [SPEAKER_02]: I think I joked about this in our Facebook group,

[00:29:15] [SPEAKER_02]: but I feel like you displeased the bacon gods perhaps without...

[00:29:19] [SPEAKER_02]: With your disrespect.

[00:29:20] [SPEAKER_02]: So they punished you with an illness.

[00:29:21] [SPEAKER_02]: But it's very sad because I keep on telling Kevin to take a nap and relax,

[00:29:25] [SPEAKER_02]: but he just wants to work on the podcast in law.

[00:29:29] [SPEAKER_02]: So God help you.

[00:29:31] [SPEAKER_02]: It's one of those things where...

[00:29:32] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, we know it's not COVID because you took a test,

[00:29:35] [SPEAKER_02]: but you took several actually.

[00:29:37] [SPEAKER_02]: But I'm not saying...

[00:29:38] [SPEAKER_01]: I didn't think it was COVID.

[00:29:40] [SPEAKER_01]: But someone else in this household did.

[00:29:42] [SPEAKER_01]: I did.

[00:29:43] [SPEAKER_01]: And it wasn't the dog.

[00:29:45] [SPEAKER_02]: I just don't...

[00:29:46] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know.

[00:29:47] [SPEAKER_02]: I think you should rest.

[00:29:48] [SPEAKER_02]: If you also think Kevin should take a break, feel free to sound off because

[00:29:54] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm not getting anywhere.

[00:29:55] [SPEAKER_01]: This is part of Anya's big plan.

[00:29:57] [SPEAKER_02]: It's an intervention.

[00:29:58] [SPEAKER_01]: No, a coup.

[00:29:59] [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, a coup. Okay.

[00:30:00] [SPEAKER_01]: She wants to get rid of me and just have a solo.

[00:30:04] [SPEAKER_02]: The illness is making you paranoid.

[00:30:09] [SPEAKER_01]: Before we talk about Bacon Fest...

[00:30:10] [SPEAKER_01]: Bacon Fest was dope.

[00:30:11] [SPEAKER_01]: Our dog is also a little bit sick, but she's getting better, hopefully.

[00:30:14] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm actually the only one who's doing okay in this household right now

[00:30:17] [SPEAKER_02]: because Lanny is also dealing with a bit of a cancer scare.

[00:30:21] [SPEAKER_02]: So, prayers up for our executive producer.

[00:30:24] [SPEAKER_02]: She's okay right now, but there's some concerns and...

[00:30:27] [SPEAKER_01]: We're awaiting some tests.

[00:30:28] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. Tests are going to be done.

[00:30:30] [SPEAKER_02]: So just keep Kevin and Lanny in your thoughts right now.

[00:30:33] [SPEAKER_02]: Don't worry about me.

[00:30:34] [SPEAKER_01]: Maybe Lanny a little bit more than me.

[00:30:35] [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, fair.

[00:30:37] [SPEAKER_02]: But no, yeah.

[00:30:39] [SPEAKER_02]: I think...

[00:30:39] [SPEAKER_02]: So Bacon Fest was really fun and we would totally recommend you go next year

[00:30:43] [SPEAKER_02]: if you missed it this year.

[00:30:44] [SPEAKER_02]: It's worth a drive.

[00:30:46] [SPEAKER_02]: There's a lot of cool stuff.

[00:30:48] [SPEAKER_02]: Lou Green from Foreigner performed.

[00:30:50] [SPEAKER_02]: It was fun.

[00:30:51] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm not good with crowd estimates or numbers.

[00:30:55] [SPEAKER_01]: I acknowledge that, but I would estimate there were 6 billion people.

[00:30:59] [SPEAKER_02]: Oh my God.

[00:30:59] [SPEAKER_02]: Is that close?

[00:31:00] [SPEAKER_02]: That's very close.

[00:31:01] [SPEAKER_02]: Everyone in the world would...

[00:31:03] [SPEAKER_01]: No.

[00:31:03] [SPEAKER_01]: There was a lot of people there.

[00:31:04] [SPEAKER_02]: It was really crowded and it was fun.

[00:31:07] [SPEAKER_02]: I would love to go next year and again, I would encourage you to do so

[00:31:11] [SPEAKER_02]: because it's just a good time, lots of bacon,

[00:31:14] [SPEAKER_02]: and it's just a lot of fun people.

[00:31:17] [SPEAKER_01]: And Delphi is a fun place to visit.

[00:31:19] [SPEAKER_01]: There's lots of great local businesses which we will probably talk about.

[00:31:25] [SPEAKER_02]: I kept looking up at the courthouse and feeling dread for a second

[00:31:30] [SPEAKER_02]: because I think my mind kept on being like,

[00:31:32] [SPEAKER_02]: something bad is happening.

[00:31:34] [SPEAKER_02]: And then I was like, oh wait, no, we're here to have fun.

[00:31:37] [SPEAKER_02]: So that was kind of nice to see Delphi in a different light

[00:31:40] [SPEAKER_02]: because it is just a place with nice people

[00:31:43] [SPEAKER_02]: and a horrible thing happened there.

[00:31:45] [SPEAKER_02]: We're going to talk about that horrible thing,

[00:31:46] [SPEAKER_02]: but that shouldn't define the city.

[00:31:48] [SPEAKER_02]: That shouldn't define the people who live there.

[00:31:51] [SPEAKER_02]: It's something where the people there care about Abby and Libby

[00:31:54] [SPEAKER_02]: and they remember them and they think about their families.

[00:31:57] [SPEAKER_02]: But it's not when outsiders come in and start talking about how evil

[00:32:01] [SPEAKER_02]: and corrupt the place is and how everyone's linked to this great conspiracy

[00:32:06] [SPEAKER_02]: and all this stuff, they're really doing a disservice

[00:32:08] [SPEAKER_02]: to the people who really do live there.

[00:32:09] [SPEAKER_02]: They're also completely full of it.

[00:32:13] [SPEAKER_01]: We are also going to be doing a live show in Kindleville.

[00:32:18] [SPEAKER_01]: We've never done that before, but when they reached out to us,

[00:32:21] [SPEAKER_01]: the good people at Kindleville,

[00:32:23] [SPEAKER_01]: they very shrewdly mentioned that Kindleville

[00:32:27] [SPEAKER_01]: is a very short drive away from Grobs Fish.

[00:32:31] [SPEAKER_01]: So as soon as I saw that, we were in.

[00:32:34] [SPEAKER_02]: Kevin was lured.

[00:32:38] [SPEAKER_02]: No, we're really excited about this.

[00:32:40] [SPEAKER_02]: So let me give you the details.

[00:32:41] [SPEAKER_02]: So we're going to be in Kindleville, Indiana

[00:32:43] [SPEAKER_02]: on September 14th of this year, 2024.

[00:32:47] [SPEAKER_02]: That is going to be the event starts at 7 p.m. Eastern time,

[00:32:52] [SPEAKER_02]: but the doors will open at 6 p.m.

[00:32:54] [SPEAKER_02]: and it's going to be at the Straus Theater

[00:32:56] [SPEAKER_02]: at the Community Learning Center there.

[00:32:58] [SPEAKER_02]: I will include a link to this event page in our show notes.

[00:33:02] [SPEAKER_02]: Tickets are $10.

[00:33:04] [SPEAKER_02]: It's going to be so much fun.

[00:33:05] [SPEAKER_02]: We're doing our first ever live episode recording.

[00:33:11] [SPEAKER_02]: So I don't know what's going to happen,

[00:33:13] [SPEAKER_02]: but I think it'll be interesting and fun,

[00:33:15] [SPEAKER_02]: and we're really excited about it.

[00:33:17] [SPEAKER_02]: And you should, if you're in that area

[00:33:19] [SPEAKER_02]: or you just want to do a quick road trip for the day,

[00:33:22] [SPEAKER_02]: it's going to be delightful.

[00:33:24] [SPEAKER_01]: I think there's one thing to remember about Kindleville.

[00:33:26] [SPEAKER_01]: It's a short drive away from a Grobs Fish.

[00:33:28] [SPEAKER_02]: There you go.

[00:33:29] [SPEAKER_02]: That's one thing.

[00:33:30] [SPEAKER_02]: And in addition to that,

[00:33:31] [SPEAKER_02]: they're going to be serving beer and wine there.

[00:33:33] [SPEAKER_02]: They're going to be, there's going to be snacks.

[00:33:34] [SPEAKER_02]: We're going to be selling T-shirts

[00:33:36] [SPEAKER_02]: and there's not going to be shipping, obviously,

[00:33:38] [SPEAKER_02]: because you'll be buying them in person.

[00:33:40] [SPEAKER_02]: So there's a lot of fun things,

[00:33:41] [SPEAKER_02]: and you can meet and hang out with us.

[00:33:43] [SPEAKER_01]: What kind of T-shirts are we selling?

[00:33:45] [SPEAKER_02]: Is this turning into a T-shirt ad,

[00:33:47] [SPEAKER_02]: even though it's not a cheat sheet?

[00:33:48] [SPEAKER_02]: I guess the synergy is too much to ignore.

[00:33:52] [SPEAKER_02]: We sell murder sheet people T-shirts.

[00:33:54] [SPEAKER_02]: They say murder sheet people on them,

[00:33:56] [SPEAKER_02]: and they have our logo that's in the back of our episodes,

[00:34:02] [SPEAKER_02]: our show art.

[00:34:04] [SPEAKER_02]: They're really cool, really stylish people

[00:34:06] [SPEAKER_02]: who've got them so far, really like them.

[00:34:08] [SPEAKER_02]: They say that they hold up well,

[00:34:09] [SPEAKER_02]: they're true to size, they hold up in the wash.

[00:34:13] [SPEAKER_02]: We have a range of sizes and...

[00:34:15] [SPEAKER_01]: Let me ask this.

[00:34:17] [SPEAKER_01]: If someone wanted to procure such a T-shirt,

[00:34:20] [SPEAKER_01]: where would they go?

[00:34:21] [SPEAKER_02]: One would only have to go to murdersheetshop.com

[00:34:25] [SPEAKER_02]: to purchase.

[00:34:26] [SPEAKER_02]: If you join our Patreon in the welcome email,

[00:34:29] [SPEAKER_02]: you'll have a code to get free shipping.

[00:34:31] [SPEAKER_01]: What if I wanted to buy the shirt in person

[00:34:34] [SPEAKER_01]: and perhaps have a chat with the delightful young host

[00:34:39] [SPEAKER_01]: of the program, Anya Keene?

[00:34:41] [SPEAKER_01]: Where would I go for that?

[00:34:42] [SPEAKER_02]: One would have to go to the Kendallville event

[00:34:45] [SPEAKER_02]: on September 14th at 7 p.m.

[00:34:47] [SPEAKER_02]: It's going to be so fun, seriously.

[00:34:48] [SPEAKER_01]: No, here's my concern quite frankly.

[00:34:51] [SPEAKER_01]: This event sounds so incredible.

[00:34:53] [SPEAKER_01]: How can I possibly afford this?

[00:34:55] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm sure the ticket prices must be thousands of dollars.

[00:34:58] [SPEAKER_02]: They already said it was $10, sir.

[00:35:00] [SPEAKER_01]: I wasn't listening.

[00:35:01] [SPEAKER_02]: There you go.

[00:35:03] [SPEAKER_02]: You're walking me through all the points I already made.

[00:35:07] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm not feeling good.

[00:35:07] [SPEAKER_01]: It's a miracle I'm even talking.

[00:35:09] [SPEAKER_02]: I couldn't tell from your raspy voice.

[00:35:13] [SPEAKER_01]: It's a miracle I'm even talking.

[00:35:14] [SPEAKER_02]: Your voice is so much deeper than it is normally.

[00:35:18] [SPEAKER_02]: It's awful.

[00:35:20] [SPEAKER_02]: Poor Kevin.

[00:35:21] [SPEAKER_02]: This is why I told him to take a nap.

[00:35:23] [SPEAKER_02]: He doesn't know what's going on.

[00:35:25] [SPEAKER_02]: For all I know, there is no Peli case.

[00:35:29] [SPEAKER_02]: It's just a fever dream.

[00:35:33] [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, poor Kevin.

[00:35:34] [SPEAKER_02]: No, I think you should rest.

[00:35:37] [SPEAKER_02]: But if anyone agrees with me, sound off.

[00:35:40] [SPEAKER_01]: But keep in mind it's a coup.

[00:35:42] [SPEAKER_01]: And if I rest.

[00:35:44] [SPEAKER_02]: Oh my God, the paranoia.

[00:35:46] [SPEAKER_02]: The paranoia going on right now in this room.

[00:35:51] [SPEAKER_02]: Meanwhile, Lanny is in the hallway looking at us meaningfully.

[00:35:53] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean like, I don't know.

[00:35:56] [SPEAKER_00]: We're falling apart over here.

[00:35:57] [SPEAKER_02]: Something bad is going to happen to me now

[00:35:59] [SPEAKER_02]: We're going to be completely useless as a group.

[00:36:03] [SPEAKER_02]: All right, well listen, I hope you all are having a good one.

[00:36:06] [SPEAKER_02]: Take care of yourselves.

[00:36:07] [SPEAKER_01]: And maybe we'll see you in Kindleville.

[00:36:08] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, come to Kindleville.

[00:36:09] [SPEAKER_02]: Come see us.

[00:36:10] [SPEAKER_02]: It'll be fun.

[00:36:11] [SPEAKER_02]: All right.

[00:36:11] [SPEAKER_02]: Thanks very much.

[00:36:12] [SPEAKER_02]: Bye.

[00:36:16] [SPEAKER_01]: Thanks so much for listening to The Murder Sheet.

[00:36:18] [SPEAKER_01]: If you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover,

[00:36:22] [SPEAKER_01]: please email us at murdersheet at gmail.com.

[00:36:27] [SPEAKER_01]: If you have actionable information about an unsolved crime,

[00:36:31] [SPEAKER_01]: please report it to the appropriate authorities.

[00:36:36] [SPEAKER_02]: If you're interested in joining our Patreon,

[00:36:38] [SPEAKER_02]: that's available at www.patreon.com slash murder sheet.

[00:36:46] [SPEAKER_02]: If you want to tip us a bit of money for records requests,

[00:36:49] [SPEAKER_02]: you can do so at www.buymeacoffee.com slash murder sheet.

[00:36:56] [SPEAKER_02]: We very much appreciate any support.

[00:36:59] [SPEAKER_01]: Special thanks to Kevin Tyler Greenlee,

[00:37:02] [SPEAKER_01]: who composed the music for The Murder Sheet,

[00:37:04] [SPEAKER_01]: and who you can find on the web at kevintg.com.

[00:37:09] [SPEAKER_02]: If you're looking to talk with other listeners about a case we've covered,

[00:37:13] [SPEAKER_02]: you can join The Murder Sheet discussion group on Facebook.

[00:37:17] [SPEAKER_02]: We mostly focus our time on research and reporting,

[00:37:20] [SPEAKER_02]: so we're not on social media much.

[00:37:23] [SPEAKER_02]: We do try to check our email account,

[00:37:25] [SPEAKER_02]: but we ask for patience as we often receive a lot of messages.

[00:37:30] [SPEAKER_02]: Thanks again for listening.

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