The Delphi Murders: State's Response to Defense's Third Motion for Franks Hearing

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[00:01:36] Content warning this episode contains discussion of the murder of two girls.

[00:01:41] So we have all been waiting for prosecutor Nick McLean to file his response to the defense attorneys latest motion for a Frank's hearing he has done that and along the way judge goal is also made a ruling that may have a serious impact on the future of this case and its ultimate outcome.

[00:02:11] And we will talk about both of those in just a few minutes.

[00:02:16] My name is Anya Kane I'm a journalist and I'm Kevin Greenley I'm an attorney and this is the murder sheet were true crime podcast focused on original reported interviews and deep dives into murder cases we're the murder sheet and this is the Delphi murders states response to defenses third motion for Frank's hearing.

[00:03:11] So before we get into the state's response to the motion for the third Frank's hearing let's just take a moment to talk about the order that judge goals signed today.

[00:03:38] Absolutely this is a brief order but it may have a pretty stringent impact on this case so.

[00:03:46] The goal has ruled on the states motion for leave of port to subpoena third party records in the case of both mental health records and medical records that was originally filed on March 14th and she's had an outcome now she's given the state.

[00:04:06] The ability to access some mental and medical health records for Richard Allen this is something that the two sides have been going back and forth on for a while the state has maintained that they believe the defense is going to be using Richard Allen's mental health as part of their case.

[00:04:31] So you should have a right to those records and the defense has maintained that there's certain privacy rights in play so obviously privacy rights make sense just because you're incarcerated doesn't necessarily mean that the state has access to every single thing that you're doing especially with sensitive stuff like mental or medical records that being said from the states perspective.

[00:04:54] If the defense is giving indications that they are going to bring into issue well you know he said this because he's having a mental health breakdown here's what he was doing.

[00:05:03] Then that they have a right to be able to analyze those and see what the experts are actually saying about him does he have a mental health condition.

[00:05:12] Is he malingering what's going on here so those were the two sides of this and goal has now come down on the side of the prosecution.

[00:05:20] And it said after a number of times where she ruled against the prosecution on this maybe some indication that there is going to be some mental health stuff within this defense.

[00:05:30] And there are certainly if you follow developments in this case on social media there are all sorts of interesting rumors about what may or may not be included in those mental health records we have not been able to verify yeah we ignore I mean if something's just people are just chatting about it or it's like

[00:05:49] you know whatever I mean I for me rumors might as well not exist like we can like note them and just half the time they're deadly wrong so I would just encourage people to keep an open mind with this and not necessarily assume that's going to be one thing or another it's just it's certainly.

[00:06:07] It certainly will have an impact though because you know if the defense is planning on mounting some kind of mental health defense that doesn't mean that they're not that they're ditching the innocent the actual innocence defense all has to mean is like oh he was mentally ill or having a mental episode when he confessed like it can be a minimal defense there but.

[00:06:30] It's still that still would be important so it's now basically the judge saying it's important enough that the prosecution gets a peak to.

[00:06:37] And also just keep in mind if everything goes on schedule which I know you are very skeptical of on yeah but if everything goes on schedule we will all find out what is in those records in a little over a month when the trial happens I'm going to tell you I feel like this defense team has been stringently contorting itself in order to try to avoid this outcome so I'm going to do it.

[00:07:00] I imagine this is not favorable in their in their perspective I feel like when they initially were dealing with the alleged incriminating statements that Richard Allen made to his wife and mother.

[00:07:14] They were going with something mental health related in a way that I thought made sense that this man is having some kind of psychotic episode and that's why this happened but they completely abandoned that in their kind of outline of their theory of the case in the Franks memorandum that they famously filed.

[00:07:29] Where they went towards more of a odonous guards may have forced him to confess who knows we have no evidence of this but maybe that's what happened and to me the only reason that you would go with something as weak as that because if you don't have any evidence you shouldn't be putting it in your filing frankly.

[00:07:45] You know it like it just looks that looks bad frankly and I would say that the reason that you pivot from something that is a make sense and could happen to something that you have no evidence and you're just sort of speculating about wildly in a footnote is because you really don't want mental health to become an issue at trial.

[00:08:05] Like you are contorting to get away from that and it sounds like they won't be able to necessarily now.

[00:08:13] So I will wonder if this impacts their strategy at all.

[00:08:17] So with that said let's move on to the state's response to defences third motion for a Franks hearing as I'm sure you all recall this the defense filed emotion basically saying and we're going to more detail on this in a moment but basically saying Tony Ligot who's now the sheriff of Carroll County when he prepared the search warrant for Richard Allen's home.

[00:08:45] He left out crucial geo fencing information that if included would have tended to exonerate Richard Allen and therefore the warrant should be invalidated.

[00:08:57] That was their first point.

[00:08:59] And the second point they made was that Lieutenant Jerry Holman of the Indiana State police they alleged that he misrepresented a report.

[00:09:14] He misrepresented an interview he had with an expert on Odinism so let's talk about both of those can we start you want to start with talking about the geo fencing yeah let's talk about the geo fencing.

[00:09:27] So if we're say what they said with a defense set yeah let's let's go into what they said and then what McCleuland's response was.

[00:09:35] So what did they say so what the defense is arguing is that geo fencing data from the crime scene you know on February 13th I believe or at least around the time of the murders is that.

[00:09:51] There was a basically that data was collected indicating that three phone numbers popped up on this geo fencing map that was created later and what they're arguing is that those three phones are I guess unaccounted for.

[00:10:08] And so essentially they're saying we have three phones in the vicinity of the crime scene at the time the crime is happening and so how can Richard Allen have done this if there's these three other people here are these three other people witnesses or they participants in the crime.

[00:10:24] Well it's a great it's I mean on the surface it's a wonderful argument for their theory because suddenly we have three new people or three unidentified people who are wandering around that lens credence on the surface to the idea that a large group of men were participating in an Odinist sacrifice that day and committed these crimes.

[00:10:45] Or even if you say well maybe the phones don't belong to the killers.

[00:10:49] You could say well if these three people were here and they didn't see Richard Allen maybe was he here I mean like some people identified him but others seemingly didn't even notice them and it we're getting to detail on McCleuland's response but to sum up.

[00:11:08] I'm going to read one line from I believe the top of page three McCleuland writes quote unfortunately the defense do not understand how to read or interpret geo fencing data and once again have misinterpreted the information and put misinformation in their motion in quotes.

[00:11:27] That's pretty brutal that's pretty devastating that's pretty devastating and basically he breaks we proceed to break down how geo fencing data works and how it doesn't work and why their claims are.

[00:11:42] Not not really accurate I guess would be a way of putting it.

[00:11:48] He says correct me if I'm wrong the way geo fencing works it doesn't pinpoint an exact location of where a person is it indicates an area where a person could be and the point you see I believe is the center of that area yeah there was a time you know like if you if you live near let's say.

[00:12:10] A Walmart right and you're at home but you live close enough to the Walmart if someone were to look at geo fencing data for you it might show your phone like not where you physically were but just in the approximate location and if someone were to look at that said.

[00:12:29] You know say Kevin Greenley was at this Walmart at the time then that wouldn't necessarily be accurate because that's not what geo fencing data does it does not put you in a specific position it puts you in an approximate location so let's actually get into some of the technical and the air the approximate location may be very approximate it may be within thousands of feet.

[00:12:49] It's not it's not some sort of tracker where people are able to watch you walk around in real time yeah at least as far as this 20 17 data goes I didn't mean to wrap you said we should get into the end of the game because listen this is not something that I.

[00:13:04] I'm necessarily well versed and you and I are not technological people so I wanted to read this and encoded directly so people can understand what we're talking about we're not just summing it up so.

[00:13:16] So this is a quote from this filing AT&T collects data from devices to include geo location data AT&T geolocation information is gathered from three sources GPS first known as Wi-Fi triangulation locations second and cell sites or timing advance which occurs when a signal is sent from the cell tower to the device then back to the tower GPS if received can be very good with an estimated accuracy range of 3 to 15 meters.

[00:13:45] Wi-Fi or triangulation estimated ranges vary between 15 and 100 meters and cell sites or timing advance can range up to several thousand meters the cell sites or timing advance is inaccurate because the geofencing data estimates where the phone is at where the phone is at based on how long it takes a signal to go from the tower to the cell phone and back again this means that the device can be 3 to 15 meters from the pinpoint on the map up to several thousand meters depending on how.

[00:14:14] Depending on how the information was collected from the device to the tower when interpreting when interpreting geo location data you could only consider that the device is somewhere in or near to the estimated range area that AT&T provides thus if a AT&T geolocation and a geofence provided a Wi-Fi location with a center point on the Carroll County courthouse one could deduct that the location isn't a range of 15 to 100 meters from or around that center point.

[00:14:44] If that same scenario included a cell phone a cell site or timing advance location the actual location of the device could be an range of a thousand meters plus from where the pinpoint is located that could include the entire town of Delphi and beyond when a person is in a rural area oftentimes GPS and Wi-Fi location services are not available therefore AT&T must resort to cell site location data this is not an accurate way to pinpoint the location of a device.

[00:15:14] Further geo fencing does not track movement so the fact that a pinpoint moves within a certain area is not indicative of a phone moving within that area the map that the defense refer to is actually geofence data from AT&T the points on the map represents GPS longitude and latitude points provided as part of a geofence from AT&T each longitude and latitude point has a range of uncertainty.

[00:15:39] So that the point is not where the phone is it is simply the center point of the measurement so even though the longitude and latitude point is near the crime scene the actual phone could be more than 5,000 meters away from the point in any direction.

[00:15:53] The points have no date or time associated with them on the map and so the map does not indicate what date and time the phone hit on that pinpoint all this information was provided to the defense in spreadsheet form with discovery they either choose to ignore that information

[00:16:08] or did not understand how to read the information.

[00:16:13] That yeah that seems pretty devastating and I also would like this is something that we've heard from people who actually know about geo fencing though talking to people on background or behind the scenes some people have told us that maybe geo fencing has gotten better or there's been changes over time but we're talking about 2017 here

[00:16:36] and it certainly sounds like and this is something I've heard in other cases that these geo fences are helpful tools but they are not showing you know like if you imagine us doing a bird's eye view and seeing phones as little red dots they're not showing us the red dot is not necessarily showing us where the person is at every moment it is a general approximation that in this case

[00:17:04] because Delphi is quite rural sounds like it could be off by a lot.

[00:17:11] I also want to make one more point here I want quote another line from this section of the filing quote the defense further fails to state that the owners of those phones were interviewed and cleared by investigators in quote so that's also interesting because I believe the implication we were supposed to take from the distance

[00:17:33] filing was that these the owners of these phones were unknown perhaps odonus perhaps some of the suspects or witnesses who are never properly talked to.

[00:17:43] And my Cleveland is asserting very clearly that it's not true these people have been identified and interviewed and cleared.

[00:17:53] I just don't even know I just yeah I don't even know why you would put that in your defense filing.

[00:18:03] I have some stuff I'd like to say about that but before I do it also relates to the next section which is the section about professor turco what professor turco is the producer professor who was famously

[00:18:21] interviewed by investigators to help determine whether or not the sticks at the crime scene were meant to indicate that a ritual killing had taken place.

[00:18:31] So to be clear Jeffrey turco is often I just want to say something because he's often billed in these legal filings as an odonus expert that to me is is is not really the case.

[00:18:43] His website Purdue website says he specializes in old Norse Icelandic literature medieval German literature dramatic folklore and mythography Wagner medieval Italian literature so his range of expertise but you're seeing a common beam here and it's it's literature medieval.

[00:19:03] This is a person who is going to have some value in terms of understanding things that might appear in some sort of odonus ritual because he has the basis in Norse mythology but this is not somebody who is studying studying modern day white nationalist white supremacist movements like odonism and having something to say directly about what that looks like today.

[00:19:28] And another thing I want to say before I stopped talking and let you proceed is that another thing about professor turco is that it has certainly been suggested by the defense that he is a blockbuster witness he's someone who supports their view of things.

[00:19:48] And so because of that information about him and his views has been suppressed that the state has tried to keep the defense we've been knowing this man's name.

[00:20:03] The state is trying to misrepresent this or that about his testimony so this must be a bombshell witness.

[00:20:11] Yes, this is a man who's going to blow the whole thing wide open from from their previous filing is with the indication that they put out there that they chose to put out there for some reason so I'll stop talking let you introduce this turco section.

[00:20:26] So the defense is contention centers around lieutenant cherry homin of the state police and essentially that he not only hid professor turco from the defense but that he in fact provided a very, very inaccurate essentially a lie of a summary of turcos interview and his statements essentially what the defense is alleging is.

[00:20:53] Holman treated this like a game of broken telephone where turco tells Holman yeah those are definitely odonous rooms and then Holman reports back to the defense yeah I said they weren't odonous rooms and then the defense looks at the actual or it listens to the actual tape of the interview and finds out actually turco agrees with us.

[00:21:17] The even cited portions of that you know to I think snippets from that interview that they say shows that turco completely agrees with us and he's you know like the Holman lied so that all sounds pretty bad.

[00:21:32] They even went so far as that they quoted Holman's summary of an interview and then they said this is inaccurate here's what the real summary should be and they wrote their own summary yes and as it turns out professor turco himself was asked which summary is more accurate and he picked the summary provided by sergeant or probably the summary provided by lieutenant Holman.

[00:21:56] So like they let's let's go into specifically what was said here well another point I want to make is that it has been suggested that in the report turco filed he was talking about how the sticks were.

[00:22:16] So sticks were left upon the bodies of the two girls.

[00:22:21] But this is the first time we're hearing a quote from this report from the introduction to the report and I'm quoting from the introduction to professor turco's report quote the following are conjectures based on the working assumption that these lines do in fact constitute a runic or runically inspired inscription in quote so.

[00:22:44] He was asked in there he was asked when he was preparing the report to assume they were runes and go from there that's different from him concluding on his own that they are ruins if I ask Anya to write a report assuming I'm a space alien and she writes a report based on that assumption that isn't necessarily mean that she in fact believes I am a space alien i'm giving her a premise in a way that she's not going to be.

[00:23:13] So it's a way of getting someone to boil down their analysis to give the best case or should kind of give the strongest argument in favor of something and as you weigh it.

[00:23:27] And from that it feels frankly like the turco report has been misrepresented and it's certainly striking to me the professor turco himself says in his deposition that the summary prepared by lieutenant Holman that was so derided by the defense he says that is an accurate summary.

[00:23:50] So the defense it would seem has been.

[00:23:55] But let's get let's read some of this because I feel like it's important for people to understand what we're talking about here but before we begin I just want to say that when they first came out with some of those turco lines it made me somewhat.

[00:24:10] I think suspicious is far too strong a word but it gave me pause that they only really seem to quote turco in two instances to snippets because I felt like it would be very easy to cherry pick something.

[00:24:24] But I figured I figured that whatever turco said would be at least more nuanced than what has come out in this and certainly.

[00:24:37] I didn't expect this level of you know I don't even know what to call this.

[00:24:44] This is that to me some of this is shocking.

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[00:26:53] When should go into some of the meat of it sure so I guess I just start from the top or is there a specific paragraph I mean I like I just don't even know where to begin here.

[00:27:06] One thing is that professor to go notes that as far as he knows never in human history has there been a sacrificial killing of odonism pardon me not nowhere in the recorded history of odonism has a sacrificial killing of children occurred.

[00:27:28] And if by some slight chance that this is that it would be the only one in recorded history and goes against the definition of ritual since a ritual is something that is done over and over again so turco is pretty clearly saying this is not a ritual killing.

[00:27:47] Let's go into the timeline of what exactly happened because I also feel like that eliminates something so I'm going to be quoting from the document now so quote the defense alleges lieutenant Sherry home and interview professor Jeffrey turco and then lied about the contents of that interview and professor turco statements.

[00:28:03] Lieutenant Holman interviewed professor turco in September 2023 at the request of the defense following his deposition lieutenant Holman's deposition included defense inquiry about investigative leads related to odonism lieutenant Holman advised that that a Purdue professor had been consulted by other investigators but that he did not participate directly in the inquiry.

[00:28:25] The defense press lieutenant Holman to re interview the professor as to his findings and conclusions lieutenant Holman did a follow-up interview of professor turco at the defense's request.

[00:28:36] Professor turcos initial report from 2017 clearly states in the introductory summary it is not self evident that these markings are runic instructions nor it is immediately clear what they would mean if they were.

[00:28:48] However the argument that these markings constitute an inscription inspired by Norse runes or modern recreations thereof is quite plausible the following are conjectures based on the working assumption that these lines do in fact constitute a runic or runically inspired inscription clearly professor turco was asked to assume the line formations are ruins.

[00:29:11] Lieutenant Holman did not attempt to deceive the reader or leave out key information from professor turcos report however lieutenant Holman did another interview of professor turco to clarify his findings at the request of the defense.

[00:29:24] The defense outlines lieutenant Holman's summary of that second interview in paragraph 18 of their motion the defense then outlines what they believe lieutenant Holman's summary should have stated in his report in paragraph 22 of their motion.

[00:29:36] The parties held a deposition of professor turco on March 21st 2024 at the deposition professor turco stated under oath that paragraph 18 of the defense's motion more accurately reflects his opinion by comparison to that which was stated in paragraph 22 so this is what we were saying earlier yes that he is saying that Holman's summary was accurate and the defense summary was inaccurate.

[00:30:01] So yeah he states bluntly that the defense's summary does not accurately reflect his opinion at all and he also notes in his deposition that quote it is not clear that the sticks found on the girls represent dramatic runic script.

[00:30:16] The professor went on to debunk all the statements that the defense put in their motion including that this was a ritualistic sacrificial killing and then it gets to the point where this is not does does not meet the definition of a ritual because this isn't something that.

[00:30:31] Happens and again this is supposed to be almost a blockbuster witness that the state has been trying to hide from the defense and this witness it turns out certainly is not helping the defense.

[00:30:47] This is another quote quote the defense outright lied in their motion and misrepresented the misrepresented the true findings of professor turco.

[00:30:56] Lieutenant Holman reported the truth in a statement that turco's findings were inconclusive was correct the defense statement that lieutenant Holman somehow was misleading and his report is entirely false.

[00:31:08] Okay yeah one more quote the defense has routinely put theories and statements in their motions they're not supported by facts or any real evidence this is yet another example of that.

[00:31:22] This is perhaps one of the most shocking instances to me because I would imagine that it would be good practice in in lawyering forget criminal defense but just being a lawyer to ensure that you don't go out on a branch that you don't know if it can support your weight or not that you are.

[00:31:44] You know you don't go out on the frozen pond if you don't know that it can hold you and so you're saying they shouldn't have made such a big deal about turco unless they were confident turco support of yes and the way you do that is presumably to speak to turco get a sense of things you don't just pick two sentences from his initial interview and then spin out an entire narrative based on that.

[00:32:06] You make sure that this guy's good you know like yes he agrees with us and he feels he did it was misleading and it was misrepresented that's great if you can do that but if you can't you shouldn't try because then you torch your credibility yeah and frankly you know as we mentioned a couple of weeks ago one of their fences investigators like was trying to join our Facebook pages to get information maybe instead of doing things like that.

[00:32:30] They're trying to friend us on Facebook yes maybe instead of doing things like that their time would have been better spent investigating what their blockbuster witness professor turco actually believed I want to say something here which actually echoes something I said earlier in the week about the contempt hearing and this wasn't planned because I certainly had no four knowledge that this document was going to come out today.

[00:32:56] So at this point let's be completely honest and lay all of our cards on the table the case against Richard Allen is not a slam dunk case so I would as I've seen as I've said before I would love to see a trial where both sides are at the top of their game presenting all of the best evidence and arguments they have.

[00:33:23] So that whatever verdict is reached we can all have confidence in it and what I am seeing from the defense pretty consistently.

[00:33:33] Is they may claims and assertions in filings that are then upon further reflection found to be either untrue or twisted or not quite right and.

[00:33:46] But Cleveland suggested earlier this week that perhaps some of this may be because they're like test marketing different things I don't know.

[00:33:53] But when they keep on putting things in filings.

[00:33:57] The turnout not to be true it really torches their credibility and well that's all well and good if it torches their credibility with people like us and by us I include everybody listening but what happens if they continue this in the time.

[00:34:15] In the trial in front of a jury if in front of a jury they do things like this and say oh turco is so important and then turco comes up and says well we disagree with you or they say all that.

[00:34:29] No you're just straight up lying about me what I said or they say all this geofencing proves this and then geofencing witnesses say you don't even understand geofencing if they do these things.

[00:34:39] If they say things and make assertions that sound good but are immediately disproven then they will lose the case and Richard Allen will be convicted.

[00:34:50] And the thing is I want to have confidence in this verdict I would love for the defense frankly to be doing better than this focus on the key pieces of evidence against him.

[00:35:04] I would love to see detailed analysis of the ballistics evidence how much stock can we put into it for instance the confessions all that stuff focus on that instead of making these assertions on unrelated issues the blow up in your face and make it very hard to believe anything you say.

[00:35:25] I think at this point again to paraphrase wise that earlier in this week this week I believe Richard Allen is currently being ill served by his defense team.

[00:35:36] Oh yeah we're beyond beyond that in my opinion and maybe part of it is because they are rushing to meet this trial date and if you know less than a month or so before the trial you're finding out the witnesses you thought support you don't support you.

[00:35:54] And all this other stuff going on and you're looking at geofencing data and you think it says something but maybe you're not looking at it carefully enough you don't fully understand it then maybe it's a sign you need more time to prepare.

[00:36:06] I can tell you this when I Google geofencing one of the first things that comes up is that it's not a pinpoint that's not a secret that's not a trade secret that's pretty well documented in other cases.

[00:36:21] The tiny bit of research would have said but that to me is not quite as bad as not under not checking with somebody who's going to be your bombshell guy on this odonism thing beforehand and ensuring that you're all on the same page here yeah that was messed up yeah they did misrepresent me that just seems like just basic basic stuff.

[00:36:45] I think it's this level of lawyer and continues he will be convicted and I think is the end of the day no matter what your feelings are about the case you do not want to see Richard Allen convicted because of sloppy lawyering.

[00:37:02] You want him to be either convicted or acquitted based upon evidence we can believe in and rely on and to whatever extent this is not willful to whatever extent is just negligence because you're rushing around and don't have time maybe make the time.

[00:37:21] And don't rush to meet a trial date unless you are fully prepared and willing and able to present witnesses and arguments that stand up to scrutiny.

[00:37:31] You know Babe Ruth would like call his shots ready to point the baseball bat to show you're going to get a home run but you know what if you do that and then you strike out and then fall on your face in the dirt then that's that's kind of.

[00:37:45] That feels like what we're seeing again and again here and it got into the point where listen lawyers make mistakes lawyers are human they're trying their best maybe they don't maybe they're running around maybe their time.

[00:37:56] But when we're seeing the same pattern occur again and again and again it becomes a situation where I just I don't know what to make of it because it's you know it's it's side show Bob stepping on break after rake after rake I mean it when is this going to stop it when is that.

[00:38:15] This is going to get serious this is a man facing life in prison and his family facing him possibly getting convicted and taken away from them forever and I don't understand why this defense has consistently played to the media played to social media focused on all this flashy stuff in their filings instead of like making sure there's no sloppy mistakes.

[00:38:41] And as you said fighting on what are we at the bullet you know ballistics evidence has increasingly come under attack in this country jump on that you know there's so much to be done regarding what the evidence is against him from from the confessions maybe there is a mental health reason for that maybe you can focus on that but all of this it's it's not even about having like an outlandish theory or anything it's just about like just sloppy.

[00:39:11] Sobbing is and let me let me be clear there's this stuff that they're completely miss apparently misrepresented the words of professor turco all of that stuff makes the defense lawyers look sloppy and bad at best at best but it doesn't even touch on the issue of innocence or guilt if Richard Allen the defense attorneys could have completely bungled the ball with professor turco but Richard Allen could still be innocent.

[00:39:41] But if you get in front of a jury and you misrepresent witnesses and you make arguments that aren't true the jury's not going to believe you.

[00:39:50] So I'm concerned I think there in I think I think what I get the sense of is that this is like this is formed into a little bubble and it's like we play to we play to that bubble rather than.

[00:40:04] You know what actually makes sense here that's the only reason I can come up with for this because I just I'm shocked by this again I told you I had a I had a weird feeling about the turco stuff like citing two two sentences in their interpretation of it just felt off but I would I was figuring well it's going to just be a very kind of down the middle thing and maybe there'll be an understandable reason for them interpreting it that way and what we got was seemingly he's basically disavowing everything they say.

[00:40:34] And this was the Purdue professor that they chose to make an issue of filing after filing.

[00:40:42] And also at the same time they were saying that lieutenant Holman was a liar and turco is now saying no lieutenant Holman was not a liar I'm just like they're not serving their client well with any of this they need to get their act together in order to go to trial because that means delay the trial than deliver.

[00:41:03] Delay the trial take your time this you know it's not about the lawyers it's not about the lawyers and their egos and their futures and their careers it's about Richard Allen okay it would be better for him if they delayed and then one versus going in with with this level of

[00:41:23] loyering and losing because that ruins his life like it's not about I mean I just don't even understand with any of this and it's like part of these like they fought so hard to come back to do this.

[00:41:37] I mean I'm I'm gobsmacked I don't.

[00:41:45] They need to be doing better than this going into this trial because it's not there's not going to be a lot of room for error and there's not going to be a lot of room to alienate the jury by writing checks that you cannot cash.

[00:41:55] And as I said if the if this sort of stuff if this pattern continues in front of a jury they will lose and Richard Allen would be convicted and at the end of the day.

[00:42:06] I want I don't want it to be based on sloppy loyering the verdict no I wanted to be a fair trial I don't I don't understand I don't I mean I listen he chose to bring them back so I feel like you'll have a hard time arguing that he had ineffective counsel later on even if

[00:42:24] even if that's what it ends up looking like but he I don't feel like this sort of things serves him so I all I can say is that I sincerely hope that things change and things tighten up going into trial because this is not it.

[00:42:44] I think that's all we have to say on this right yes I will make a quick scheduling note we have a production schedule there so we did this episode at the time we were going to be doing an episode on crowdfunding so now we're going to do the crowdfunding episode when I record that tomorrow release it Friday which means they won't be a cheat sheet this week.

[00:43:07] And for people who listen to the last week's cheat sheet the person who saw me with the first sandwich is going to be a special guest on our patreon lives this week.

[00:43:20] Thanks everyone for listening thank you for listening bye.

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