The Delphi Murders: The Arrest of Mitchell Westerman

[00:00:00] Content Warning, this episode contains discussion of the murder of two girls as well as the topic of suicide.

[00:00:07] So it seems like every day in the Richard Allen case, the Delphi case, there's always new developments.

[00:00:15] And there was a new development today. More specifically, it's a development in the ongoing story of the leaks of evidence that took place in the Richard Allen case.

[00:00:29] And the development is that Mitchell Thomas Westerman, who of course is the person by his own admission by his own account, who took pictures of crime scene pictures and shared them with people not authorized to view those images.

[00:00:47] He was arrested today, taken into custody and charged with conversion.

[00:00:55] So we're going to just take a few minutes to talk with you about this, give you some of our first impressions, read through the PCA with you and just see if we can figure out what it might mean.

[00:01:08] My name is Anya Kane. I'm a journalist.

[00:01:11] And I'm Kevin Greenlee. I'm an attorney.

[00:01:14] And this is The Murder Sheet.

[00:01:16] We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews, and deep dives into murder cases.

[00:01:22] We're The Murder Sheet.

[00:01:24] And this is The Delphi Murders, the arrest of Mitchell Westerman.

[00:01:30] The very first point I think that is worth making in all of this is that when you look and see who the prosecutor is, who's representing the state of Indiana in this case, you get just a little bit of a surprise.

[00:02:33] It's not really a huge surprise. I think we saw this coming.

[00:02:36] But this crime, this alleged crime took place in Franklin, Indiana, which is a part of Johnson County.

[00:02:47] But the prosecutor in this case is Lindsay Holden Kaye, who was the Barthomium County prosecutor.

[00:02:54] She's the prosecutor from neighboring or nearby Columbus, Indiana.

[00:02:59] Yes. So why is that?

[00:03:01] Well, I think actually our previous reporting gives us a hint, or at least maybe the answer.

[00:03:08] We, when we profiled Andy Baldwin, Andrew Baldwin, the former defense attorney for Richard Allen, who's at the center of this whole thing, when we profiled him, we interviewed Mitchell or Mitch Westerman.

[00:03:21] We also interviewed Lance Hamner, the current sitting prosecutor of Johnson County.

[00:03:27] Lance Hamner is a man who's worked with Baldwin a lot over the years in his capacity as a judge and prosecutor, and he very clearly respects and likes Andy from our conversation with him.

[00:03:39] And Lance Hamner also knows Mitch Westerman. Mitch Westerman is well known to the legal community in Johnson County.

[00:03:48] And I think it's fair to say that Mitch Westerman has a personal connection with the Johnson County prosecutor's office.

[00:03:55] And so what all of this means is that at the very least, there could have been the appearance of impropriety if the Johnson County prosecutors handled this.

[00:04:10] Because if they, for instance, looked at it and decided not to charge something or to charge a minor offense, people could have said, well, they're cutting Westerman a break because they know him because they know Baldwin.

[00:04:25] Yes, you have to get someone from the outside for a case like this. As you said, it's strikes at people who are well known within the Johnson County bar.

[00:04:35] You can't just do that in-house. So Hamner being a respectable and responsible prosecutor obviously said, okay, let's give this to a special prosecutor who will be able to deal with it without any even perception of impropriety.

[00:04:53] People are going to know that this is just being handled by someone who's not emotionally invested in any of this.

[00:04:58] And so why is it relevant that Lance Hamner is personally acquainted with Andy Baldwin when Andy Baldwin is not charged in this case?

[00:05:07] I think that gets to the fact that the investigation of this leak is ongoing. We don't know exactly who was involved and what level of culpability there is.

[00:05:22] Maybe Andy Baldwin had something to do with the leaks. Maybe he didn't.

[00:05:26] But if a friend of Andy Baldwin was to stand up and say, I've proven to my satisfaction that Andy Baldwin is not involved with this whatsoever, people might have taken that less seriously.

[00:05:39] But when you have an outsider who doesn't have that sort of personal connection, if they were to absolve Andy Baldwin of blame, I think people would take that a lot more seriously.

[00:05:50] Absolutely. So it's just things are working as they should in this situation.

[00:05:55] And I think that sort of propriety and the fact that people in this situation are paying attention to that and doing things by the book is wonderful.

[00:06:04] That's the system working as it should.

[00:06:07] So Mitchell Westerman was charged with conversion, which is defined as knowingly or intentionally exerting unauthorized control over the property of another person.

[00:06:24] So why not theft?

[00:06:26] There were so many questions about what charges should have been filed in this case.

[00:06:33] And lawyers like to debate everything imaginable.

[00:06:38] And there is a question of if Anya goes out and buys a hat that she dearly loves, and she has it sitting on a desk.

[00:06:50] If I come in and I take the hat and I throw it into the trash can, I've clearly stolen the hat.

[00:07:01] But if I come in and just take a picture of the hat and then walk away, have I stolen the hat?

[00:07:09] Have I committed theft of the hat?

[00:07:11] And in this particular case, Mitch Westerman is said to have gone into a conference room where there were physical copies of these crime scene pictures.

[00:07:23] And he did not take any of those physical copies out of the conference room with him.

[00:07:28] What he did was he took pictures of them and then shared those pictures.

[00:07:32] So that seems to fit the conversion statute because he was allegedly without Baldwin's authorization or permission.

[00:07:42] He was exerting control over materials that didn't belong to him, that he wasn't authorized to do so.

[00:07:48] So it's important to note that this is a misdemeanor, a class A misdemeanor, which means obviously it's going to be less penalized and less high stakes than a felony case worth pointing out there.

[00:08:01] Yes, a misdemeanor is much smaller stakes.

[00:08:06] But still, if you are arrested and taken into custody for even a misdemeanor, that is not a very pleasant experience.

[00:08:16] That's something you take very seriously.

[00:08:18] Very true.

[00:08:19] So I suppose next should we get into the PCA, the probable cause of a David for Westerman's arrest?

[00:08:24] Yes.

[00:08:25] Why don't you want to start reading it and then we can stop and discuss it at different points?

[00:08:29] That sounds great.

[00:08:30] All right.

[00:08:32] So I, Benjamin Rector being duly sworn upon oaths state that one, I am employed as a law enforcement officer with the Indiana State Police ISP.

[00:08:42] My current assignment is a detective in the criminal investigations division to law enforcement was advised that on or about October 5th 2023, that evidence from the murder case of the state of Indiana versus Richard Allen had been released to the public.

[00:08:57] There's currently an order from the court in that case prohibiting the release of evidence to the public.

[00:09:01] Law enforcement was made aware that this evidence may have been obtained illegally and began an investigation.

[00:09:07] Law enforcement was able to retrieve the evidence from the creators of a podcast who stated that they got the evidence from an individual in Texas.

[00:09:14] That's us.

[00:09:16] Yes.

[00:09:17] There's no big mystery there.

[00:09:19] Well, some have been trying to make it a mystery.

[00:09:21] I think it's interesting.

[00:09:22] You know, you always have whenever there's a development in Delphi, a lot of people who are eager to claim involvement in something.

[00:09:28] And in this case, that certainly was true for the leak.

[00:09:33] But us podcast creators October 5th.

[00:09:38] That's us.

[00:09:39] That's exactly what we said from the very beginning.

[00:09:41] There's a all sorts of dark corners of the Delphi related Internet out there.

[00:09:46] They have all sorts of ridiculous conspiracy theories.

[00:09:50] And some of them involve us somehow being secretly in league with Nick McClillan and

[00:09:57] and Westerman and Westerman to release these photos.

[00:10:00] And so I just want to take the opportunities.

[00:10:03] Not really worth dignifying those things, but obviously untrue.

[00:10:07] It's ridiculous, embarrassing nonsense.

[00:10:09] It's kind of funny because some of these people, they drive away rational listeners or audience because they keep on getting stuff deeply wrong and being so outlandish.

[00:10:16] It's sort of like those cult members or cult leaders who keep saying there's an apocalypse coming.

[00:10:22] This is the date of Armageddon.

[00:10:23] And then they keep on having to move it back because it's not happening.

[00:10:26] So, you know, but sometimes that stuff does permeate the discussions a bit.

[00:10:30] So we figured we'd just make a statement.

[00:10:33] This is us.

[00:10:35] Indiana State Police First Sergeant Jerry Holman was able to identify the individual in Texas as Mark Robert Cohen.

[00:10:42] Mark Cohen was interviewed and law enforcement obtained screenshots of messages between Mark Cohen and an individual.

[00:10:49] We're going to continue calling this person are.

[00:10:52] Yes, this individual's name is in this public record.

[00:10:56] But at least at this time we're going to continue to refer to him by his first initial out of respect to him and his family.

[00:11:04] Yes.

[00:11:05] Are and Mark Cohen have various discussions about various pieces of evidence involved in the Richard Allen case.

[00:11:10] I Indiana State Police Detective Ben Rector was assigned to assist in the investigation.

[00:11:16] So I think I know this is a point we've made before it does for whatever reason tend to get lost in a lot of the larger discussions about this case.

[00:11:26] And more specifically, the discussions about this leak.

[00:11:30] People act like the only leak under consideration was the leak of the crime scene photographs that is not the case.

[00:11:43] The leak also involves a discussion of evidence and strategy in Richard Allen's case.

[00:11:52] So Westerman was being given access to materials and strategies that should have been protected under attorney client privilege.

[00:12:02] And he was sharing them with others and those others were sharing them with the world and.

[00:12:09] And Brad Rosie Bradley Rosie Baldwin's co-counsel is the only one who actually speaks to how that was happening in his letter to the court where he indicates that Westerman and Baldwin talked about the Delphi case extensively.

[00:12:24] And so I find it very unusual that that is not being discussed more because that raises this to a level from somebody who's being victimized by a random person who just decides to do this.

[00:12:36] You know, a friend who was trusted and then just randomly decides to do this versus someone who's being essentially brought into the Delphi case in some fashion.

[00:12:46] And then for some reason decides to take it further.

[00:12:49] And let me make a very obvious point.

[00:12:52] Defense strategy defense thinking defense interpretations of evidence that information leaving the office of the defense attorneys and reaching the world.

[00:13:05] That helps the prosecution that gives the prosecution a leg up because now they know what the defense is planning to do and they can prepare for it.

[00:13:15] So these leaks hurt Richard Allen's case and they helped the prosecution.

[00:13:23] And so the people who are concerned about Richard Allen's rights and I would include us in that group. Absolutely.

[00:13:32] We are concerned about Richard Allen's rights.

[00:13:34] People try to conflate people try to conflate ardent support of the old defense team with support of Richard Allen and his rights and what he's owed under the law in terms of having a fair trial.

[00:13:48] I think it's very dangerous to conflate those two to the level that some people have because I think in this case there's an argument to be made that those might be in direct contrast with one another from what we've seen.

[00:13:58] And from the lack of openness around how exactly involved was Westerman in talking about this case and how what did that look like. Why was he being given all this information that he was then leaking to others.

[00:14:10] And I can't stress enough.

[00:14:13] We want Richard Allen to have a fair trial.

[00:14:16] If the world if the prosecution is getting a sneak peek at defense strategies defense analysis defense evidence that is compromising Richard Allen.

[00:14:28] Because part of having a good defense is you know we've talked about you don't want to trial to have a lot of surprises but having the defense is unique spin on something or being able to really hammer something hard and maybe catch the prosecution a bit.

[00:14:45] On the back foot.

[00:14:47] That's all positive for him that increases his likelihood of being able to be acquitted and go home.

[00:14:53] So when you have people just leaking that to the Internet.

[00:14:57] That's really bad for him.

[00:14:59] And again, I don't I don't like the conflation of support for everything that the old defense team did with support for Richard Allen because I actually feel that that's pretty harmful when you consider perhaps some of the things that were going on here potentially.

[00:15:16] Three as part of the investigation.

[00:15:18] Affi and completed interviews with attorneys Brad Rosie and Andrew Baldwin on October 12 2023 concerning the evidence that was taken without consent in regards to the representation of Richard Allen.

[00:15:28] Affi and previously knew that Rosie and Baldwin were attorneys which were assigned to represent Richard Allen in his criminal charges.

[00:15:35] Four during the course of the interview with Andrew Baldwin detective Rector learned that Baldwin is an associate of Mitchell Westerman.

[00:15:43] Baldwin is known Westerman for several years and Westerman was previously employed by Baldwin's law firm.

[00:15:48] Westerman is no longer employed by the law firm.

[00:15:51] However, he still routinely stops by the firm to visit with staff and Baldwin.

[00:15:55] And I just want to quickly interject here that that goes back to what Ania was mentioning earlier.

[00:16:01] Brad Rosie in one of his letters to the court referred to these visits that Westerman paid to the office he even went as far as to specify that Westman would visit because he was in the area of visiting his girlfriend.

[00:16:16] Westerman, of course, is a married man.

[00:16:19] And he Rosie also revealed that in these discussions in these visits, it was common for Baldwin to share details about trial strategy with Westerman because Baldwin believed that Westerman was some sort of I guess master trial strategist.

[00:16:38] Now, I will also note, I know we talked in our previous interview, previous episode on the transcript of the in chambers meeting between Judge Gull and Baldwin Rosie and McLean.

[00:16:51] I mentioned I'd be really curious to know exactly how cooperative Baldwin and Rosie were with this case.

[00:16:57] And here we're seeing on October 12th, they at least at both of them actually Rosie and Baldwin did interviews with Ben Brechter.

[00:17:04] So that speaks to a level of cooperation.

[00:17:06] Yes.

[00:17:07] So I want to note that now we have more information on that and we can say that they sat down for interviews with Indiana State Police.

[00:17:14] Let's get back to the PCA.

[00:17:17] Five on Monday, October 9th, 2023, Westerman contacted Baldwin around 4pm and requested to meet with him.

[00:17:25] They met at Baldwin's office shortly afterwards.

[00:17:28] Westerman told Baldwin that he had used his cellular phone to take photographs of photographs, which were in Baldwin's conference room area.

[00:17:35] Photographs depict the crime scene related to the criminal charges against Richard Allen.

[00:17:39] Westerman stated that he had done this a couple months prior and that he had shared them with an individual named R.

[00:17:46] Through the course of the investigation, law enforcement learned that R shared these photos with another individual in Texas, Mark Cohen.

[00:17:54] Cohen then shared them with various creators of YouTube channels and podcasts.

[00:17:59] It's interesting, I know what we see in the communications between R and Cohen and Mark.

[00:18:05] Mark is the man who sent them to us that R mentions sending stuff to at least one other person.

[00:18:12] So the PCA doesn't really get into that.

[00:18:14] I imagine that they were not necessarily able to track that down as much.

[00:18:19] Yeah, that is interesting.

[00:18:21] I would be curious to see who that other person was.

[00:18:26] 6. Baldwin stated that based on the timing of events, he believed that there were in fact crime scene photos from the Richard Allen case.

[00:18:33] In the conference room when Westerman visited his office, he also stated that there would have been side-by-side photographs which were previously used by the defense team in depositions.

[00:18:42] The photographs that Baldwin described are consistent with photographs that Affi and his viewed which were released of the crime scene.

[00:18:49] Baldwin stated that he did not authorize Westerman to take these photographs.

[00:18:54] So I think it's worth stressing that there really doesn't seem to be any doubt here.

[00:19:01] These aren't allegations made by outsiders.

[00:19:05] The defense attorneys themselves, Baldwin himself is saying these pictures were consistent with the pictures I had sitting in my conference room at the time Westerman visited.

[00:19:18] Yeah, basic facts are not being contested here.

[00:19:21] This would be a completely different story if Baldwin was saying, my team didn't do this. You're just railroading Westerman.

[00:19:27] I don't know. I mean, he wouldn't have had access to this.

[00:19:30] But everyone is saying including Westerman by the way, this is what happened.

[00:19:35] So again, just keep that in mind when you hear people trying to spread conspiracy theories.

[00:19:42] The parties involved are agreeing to the actual facts of the matter.

[00:19:47] Let's get back to the PCA.

[00:19:50] Seven during an interview with Rosie, he also indicated that he did not authorize Westerman to take the photographs.

[00:19:56] Rosie further concluded that he believed that Westerman's taking of the photographs constituted theft because he did not believe that anyone had authorized Westerman to take the photographs.

[00:20:05] That's interesting to me for a couple of reasons.

[00:20:08] First of all, we were discussing earlier that lawyers can argue amongst themselves whether or not what Westerman did constituted theft or not.

[00:20:16] But I will say that one thing that seems clear at least to me throughout this process, whether what we see reflected in this PCA or what we see reflected in the letter that Rosie wrote the court about what happened or even in Rosie's remarks to the judge in chambers about all of this.

[00:20:37] Rosie seems to consistently for whatever reason take a much harder attitude towards Westerman than Baldwin does.

[00:20:46] Rosie is trying to argue for theft.

[00:20:49] You should charge him with theft and that certainly seems to be a more serious charge than what was actually lodged against him.

[00:20:57] And I find that interesting.

[00:20:59] Yeah. And with theft, theft can be a misdemeanor in Indiana if it's the value less than $750 or it's a first time offender.

[00:21:08] So that is probably it probably still would have been a misdemeanor for Westerman because first time offender and I don't know if you can calculate the value of these.

[00:21:17] They don't really have a monetary value.

[00:21:18] They have a value in terms of the court and Richard Allen's rights and whatnot.

[00:21:22] But still that sounds harsher because it can also be a felony in Indiana.

[00:21:27] So just something to keep in mind.

[00:21:29] One thing is that there are at least allegations out there that people on the dark web have offered to pay money for the crime scene photographs.

[00:21:38] So if those offers could be substantiated, that could potentially have been a way to determine the value of the images.

[00:21:45] Okay, there you go.

[00:21:46] Yeah.

[00:21:47] But of course, because they couldn't get it to theft, they had to do conversion that that's out the window.

[00:21:53] Let's get back to the PCA.

[00:21:55] And affidavit was also provided to Allen County Judge Gull, which states the following comes now Mitchell Westerman being first duly sworn under oath and states that the following information is within his personal knowledge and is true to the best of his knowledge.

[00:22:09] One, I was an attorney Andrew Baldwin's office building waiting to visit with Andrew.

[00:22:14] He was in office either meeting with a client or on a telephone call with the door closed.

[00:22:18] I went into the conference room to wait.

[00:22:20] Two, I observed printed copies of photo evidence on the conference room table.

[00:22:24] I took pictures of a few of them.

[00:22:26] Three, Andrew Baldwin did not give me permission to take the photos of the printed copies.

[00:22:31] He was not present and he did not have any knowledge that I took pictures of the evidence photos.

[00:22:35] Four, I am freely and voluntarily typing and signing the Saffod David on my own accord because it is the truth.

[00:22:42] This document indicates it was signed on October 18, 2023 by Mitchell Westerman and was also notarized.

[00:22:49] So that of course is an affidavit we had already seen and discussed in this context.

[00:22:56] I think it's interesting because in that affidavit Westerman pretty clearly confesses to all elements of the crime.

[00:23:05] He said yes, I went in there.

[00:23:07] I took these pictures.

[00:23:09] Baldwin didn't give me permission to do this.

[00:23:11] It was unauthorized.

[00:23:13] I did it anyway.

[00:23:15] So he seems to be acknowledging the charge against him.

[00:23:19] Is that how you interpret it?

[00:23:21] Yes.

[00:23:22] Yeah, he does seem to be doing that.

[00:23:24] Like I he's admitting to conversion effectively.

[00:23:27] Here's one thing, although I know I keep harping on this, but everyone seems so reluctant in this to talk about what exactly Baldwin was talking with him about it.

[00:23:36] About the case.

[00:23:38] Like this, this affidavit doesn't mention that Richard Allen's letter to the court doesn't mention that he's been informed about that.

[00:23:45] I just think this looks different and it looks different for me.

[00:23:50] Regardless of whatever criminal charges can be brought.

[00:23:53] It looks different if I invite someone over who I don't talk to Delphi about who's not really like clued into my defense and they do this versus somebody who I know is strongly interested in it and I'm actually balancing ideas off of and who knows how connected I am about it.

[00:24:08] It looks worse for Baldwin that way.

[00:24:13] And so the fact that that has been minimized so much in a lot of this.

[00:24:16] Why not at this point?

[00:24:18] Why would Westerman not just come clean to the level of knowledge that he has passed on to our.

[00:24:24] I just think it's weird and I think it's maybe we'll learn more.

[00:24:29] Maybe, maybe we won't.

[00:24:31] It'll be interesting to see what defense Westerman and his counsel offer.

[00:24:38] It will be interesting if they just try to plead it out or it's going to be an interesting case to follow, but let's let's finish up the PCA there's not much left.

[00:24:48] Nine Affi and further believes that the above mentioned facts established probable cause to believe that Mitchell Westerman has committed the act of conversion Indiana I.C. Code 354343.

[00:25:00] Further Affi and to say it's not I affirm under the penalties of perjury at the foregoing representations are true Benjamin Rector.

[00:25:08] So.

[00:25:11] That that is the PCA.

[00:25:13] Mitch Westerman was actually taken into custody.

[00:25:16] He's facing a bond needs to pay $250 cash.

[00:25:20] I wouldn't be surprised if he could come up with that pretty easily.

[00:25:23] Oh, yeah.

[00:25:24] But it's going to be an interesting process to see what happens next.

[00:25:32] And well, there's a few things you can be sure of in this case is there's always surprises ahead.

[00:25:38] Absolutely.

[00:25:39] What do you think is going to be the upshot though of this development for the Delphi case?

[00:25:46] It's really hard to tell because this is really just the for one thing it's not clear is Mitch Westerman going to be the only person arrested as a result of this investigation or are they looking at other people being potentially involved?

[00:26:09] Right now, as far as I know, there haven't been any public statements or press releases about the arrest.

[00:26:17] I would be very curious as to how they characterize this.

[00:26:20] Is this the end of the investigation?

[00:26:22] Or is it just the end of chapter one of the investigation?

[00:26:26] What do you think?

[00:26:28] Well, yeah, I think if there if there is not more to the story than what we've heard from Westerman, if there's not, you know.

[00:26:37] More to it, then I don't think it's necessarily going to be that impactful.

[00:26:43] It's going to be potentially accountability for a egregious situation that shouldn't have happened, but it's going to fall back mostly on Westerman himself and him dealing with the legal ramifications of what he's done.

[00:26:57] And, you know, I don't know, maybe it gets put out.

[00:27:00] I suppose we'll see.

[00:27:01] I think if there is more than what we've what we've heard from him so far, then there's the potential that it could get pretty interesting.

[00:27:11] If that's the case, though, frankly, I don't know that like a class A misdemeanor would be enough to make somebody roll on somebody that they're very loyal to.

[00:27:20] So I I don't necessarily know that we're going to get everything from this.

[00:27:26] But it's possible if again, if there's not more to the story than we will.

[00:27:31] But we'll be following this.

[00:27:33] I believe it makes sense to I think the conversion charge makes a lot of sense given that there was no physical stuff taken from the office.

[00:27:41] So I think people probably were imagining something a lot more dire, but ultimately you have to look at what laws were actually broken.

[00:27:49] It's not just the ethical or moral considerations of taking images of crime scene involving children and discovery that could harm a defendant.

[00:27:59] We can all find that heinous, but it's such a unique scenario that it's not.

[00:28:07] It doesn't really like mesh well with traditional laws like theft.

[00:28:11] And as we're about to wrap up, I just like to kind of end where we started.

[00:28:17] I'm really glad that there was a special prosecutor in this case and it wasn't handled by Johnson County.

[00:28:24] This isn't because I doubt the integrity of the Johnson County Prosecutor's Office or at Lambs Hamner, but I think it's best to err on the side of being careful about such things.

[00:28:37] There's been a lot of talk, understandable talk about how some things related to the ongoing legal battles involving Richard Allen and Delphi, these things don't make the state of Indiana look good.

[00:28:49] I just want to call out that in this particular matter, Lambs Hamner, Johnson County Prosecutor's Office, they did the right thing by handing it over to another county.

[00:28:58] Yeah, I think the fact that they brought in a special prosecutor speaks highly of their credibility and their dedication to doing this properly.

[00:29:05] So that's great to see.

[00:29:08] And we'll be keeping an eye on this going forward, but we just wanted to inform you all that this development has occurred, so we'll keep you posted.

[00:29:18] Thanks.

[00:29:21] Thanks so much for listening to the Murder Sheet.

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