The Delphi Murders: The Secret Messages of the Delphi Defense’s Brain Trust: Part Three: A Conversation with Paul Mannion on Truth and True Crime

[00:00:00] Content Warning, this episode contains discussion of violence, suicide, and the murder of two girls. There always seems to be quite a bit of noise within the online community devoted to the Delphi case. Several internet commentators and sleuths who have devoted themselves to this case

[00:00:18] have actually ended up losing jobs or relationships because of their deep interest. Others have engaged in threats, stalking, and other forms of harassing or disturbing behavior because they are convinced of the existence of a conspiracy or because they feel only they can solve the mystery.

[00:00:37] As a rule, of course, we do not cover any of that noise unless we feel it has a direct impact on the underlying case itself. Frankly, we think we have a pretty decent record of predicting what players in events will turn out to have larger ramifications.

[00:00:53] And today, we will talk about yet another situation that we believe could have a big impact. In our December episode The Delphi Murders, The Unacceptable, we profiled the Unraveling YouTube channel which at the time was made up of Paul Mannion, Angela Siddlowski, and Courtney Parsons.

[00:01:09] As we discuss in this and the other episodes we are releasing today, that group had clear ties to the team defending Richard Allen in the Delphi Murders case. Since we aired that episode, the Unraveling channel has undergone a dramatic change.

[00:01:23] Paul Mannion, the owner of the channel, locked Siddlowski and Parsons out of the channel. There has been quite a bit of speculation as to why he would take such a dramatic step. Today, he will join us to explain his thinking.

[00:01:38] In the past we have had our disagreements with Paul. He's had his disagreements with us. But lately, we've gotten to discussing the case with him. It's been refreshing. We now know that Paul shares values that we also think are really important.

[00:01:51] A commitment to truth and transparency, for instance. That is why he is speaking out about some of the troubling behind-the-scenes behaviors in the case. Paul saw something that started with good intentions go wrong, and he wants to speak out about that.

[00:02:06] He's taking a stand despite the fact that he envisions he will receive retribution and retaliation for blowing the whistle. Paul is candid regarding his belief that viewing true crime as entertainment is fine, as long as you worked out strict boundaries and a commitment to the facts,

[00:02:22] in order to ensure you don't cross any lines. In this episode, Paul will talk about his own thoughts on the crime and some of the activities that went on behind the scenes. In particular, he shared with us his understanding of the relationship between Siddlowski, Parsons, and Matt Hoffman.

[00:02:39] Hoffman is a man who works with Richard Allen's defense team in an investigatory capacity. Along the way, we touch on some other matters. We discuss how Paul created the Delphi Knot subreddit, looking for a place to discuss theories of the case.

[00:02:53] We briefly mentioned the so-called DP theory, which essentially was the incorrect idea that a man with those initials was the killer of Abby and Libby. Later, of course, some participants in that subreddit expressed belief in a different theory, namely one that implicated Ron Logan for the murders.

[00:03:10] Logan was the man who owned the land upon which the bodies were found. Since then, of course, much online discussion of the case on the defense side has switched to the theory put out by Rosie and Baldwin that the murders were actually committed by a group of odonists.

[00:03:26] Even though Holder is known to have been at work at the time of the murders. Meanwhile, as for the unraveling crew, Siddlowski has apparently been to Indiana twice. The first time was when she and Manion were filmed for a CW documentary that aired earlier this year,

[00:03:40] and the second time was when she and Parsons appeared at a low quality, low turnout protest for Richard Allen, which they called the groundswell. There is quite a cast of characters in this story.

[00:03:52] In addition to Hoffman, we also will be discussing Michael Osbrook, who's an attorney in the case representing Allen's defense attorneys, Andrew Baldwin and Bradley Rosie.

[00:04:01] We will also talk about how Osbrook, Bob Mada, Kara Wainakey, Nicole Miller, Siddlowski and Parsons came together to form a private Twitter group they called the due process gang. And how, for Paul, that group ended up demonstrating how little the people involved truly understood the case.

[00:04:20] My name is Ania Kane. I'm a journalist. And I'm Kevin Greenlee. I'm an attorney. And this is The Murder Sheet. We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews and deep dives into murder cases. We're The Murder Sheet.

[00:04:36] And this is The Delphi Murders, the secret messages of the Delphi Defense's brain trust part three, a conversation with Paul Manion on truth and true crime. So could you tell us a bit about yourself?

[00:05:36] Yeah, so like, I guess the way I would really want to kind of talk about myself is sort of like, like an Odyssean sort of way of just saying like I am nobody.

[00:05:49] Just because I feel that approaching this case in that way is probably the best way to do it in terms of trying to get the best answers.

[00:06:01] But at the end of the day, you know, I mean, my name is Paul Manion and I am a Delphi Murders Aholic. AKA Tobur from Reddit. Like pretty much I'm known for creating the Delphi Not Reddit sub initially.

[00:06:18] And then I'm partially one of the creators for the not network discord that is now defunct. I am the creator of the now defunct but well, I'll put an asterisk on that YouTube channel and Twitter account for the unraveling. Absolutely. Thank you so much for joining us.

[00:06:40] And and and I wanted to ask you, have you always been interested in true crime is Delphi the first case that you really got invested in or has this been an interest for you for some time?

[00:06:51] So like I did the first like real true crime case I kind of delved into was the West Memphis three. But how I came across Delphi actually, many, many years later after that was me and my wife are both nurses.

[00:07:09] And throughout the pandemic, you know, we worked and we, you know, we come home and we'd want some form of entertainment, you know, so two things that we kind of started getting used to is why. We're getting used to is watching some true crime, you know, 48 hours, whatever.

[00:07:25] But then also big brother and they kind of intertwined in a way that I found out about Delphi because on the Canadian version of big brother, they on their live feeds. I think it was the ninth season 2021.

[00:07:42] And I do believe it was the person who won actually ironically enough, Tyshawn.

[00:07:46] So they film in the winter and that year they started in March and they were kind of like getting to know each other and the house guests were all sitting around and they said, well, did anybody do anything exciting for Valentine's Day?

[00:07:57] And then they landed on this Tyshawn player and he says, you know, I was really thinking about Abby and Libby. And everybody's like, who's Abby and Libby? And he's like, you know, and this is somebody in Canada.

[00:08:07] So it's kind of cool, you know, like it's like this like worldwide audience. And he explains the Delphi murders. And I said to my wife, I'm like, did we ever hear about these murders that happened in Greece? And she's just like, and she looked on her phone.

[00:08:19] She's like, nope, this is like five hours away from us in Indiana. So, you know, then I obviously went down the whole rabbit hole, BG video sketches. And then I said, I said to her, I said, you know, I absolutely have to know.

[00:08:34] I know there's a reddit sub. There has to be a reddit sub on this because this is insane.

[00:08:38] And my wife always says, like, you know, that's that's when, you know, Paul, like lost his mind because he totally like went down the rabbit hole like fully at that point. And for context, this was kind of like around the time that Lee Kerr kind of appeared.

[00:08:50] Ooh, you know, like everybody wants to know who Lee Kerr is, you know, so. You are in some context around Lee Kerr and what that whole situation is. I don't even know if we've ever really talked about that on the show in depth.

[00:09:02] Yeah. Well, Lee Kerr is like a kind of mysterious figure that shows up at the beginning of 2021 and has all these kind of crazy claims about the case that because, you know, I always say there were periods before Alan was arrested where there.

[00:09:19] I mean, it was like years where like there would be tumbleweeds that would just go by and nothing would happen. So this Lee Kerr guy shows up and he's got all this like juicy information. Most of it turns out to be not true.

[00:09:28] And it's probably just somebody like throwing crap at the wall and seeing what would stick.

[00:09:31] It sounds like, you know, but at this point, but one more thing that I'll just say about like the my my Reddit handle is Tobur and it's it comes from the TV show Mr. Robot.

[00:09:43] I was not being very creative and I just, you know, Tobur underscore RM and it's Mr. Robot backwards. But I was a huge fan of the show Mr. Robot and other TV series and things like that, you know, lost Dexter breaking bad that kind of thing.

[00:09:57] And one of the things that like I, you know, would do when I would get into these TV series is I would try to find spoilers. I'm just one of those people that just like likes the spoilers like everybody hates me for it.

[00:10:08] But it's any, it's a good indication as any that and a lot of people don't admit this, but I will admit this that Delphi, it fills a void for me in terms of entertainment. Like it's something that I do that's entertaining.

[00:10:24] And I think some people can kind of interpret that as being disrespectful. But I feel like it's kind of true about most people who follow the case, whether they admit it or not.

[00:10:34] But so the reason why I feel like I'm based enough to kind of come out and be like, this is just the reality of it.

[00:10:40] But it comes with the condition for me that to balance that, I at least have to make a commitment that whatever I do in this case,

[00:10:48] especially when I'm on social media and looking into it, that I make a real true commitment to getting to the bottom of the truth as best as I can.

[00:10:54] Not to say that I'm going to solve it or that like I have all the answers, but veering from, you know, not making that the number one priority veering from that and putting other things in terms of like what I'm trying to do here is it's sacrilegious.

[00:11:07] It is just something that I would never do that, you know? So I just wanted to point that out because yeah, it's something that I'm really serious about. Absolutely. Two things. First of all, love to meet a fellow lost watcher. I used to have the Dharma Initiative sign.

[00:11:27] Oh! I printed it out for me and my sisters. I love that show. The other thing is one thing that I think is really interesting and I wanted to unpack before we go to our next question,

[00:11:40] you know, viewing the case like entertainment, but then also maintaining sort of a real interest in getting to the truth. Yes. By being honest about that, some people view these cases as entertaining, but also maintaining that standard.

[00:11:56] Do you think that is a way for people to also continue to engage respectfully with the case? Yes. That's exactly what I'm trying to say because the reason why I pointed out is because I think there's like a group of people out there

[00:12:07] that it's well intentioned, but it's the, you know, people come out and they just say, you know, it's all about justice. And of course it is. My God, it is.

[00:12:14] Justice is like the number one thing, but there can be a lot of driving, a lot of motivating factors as far as why people want to get to the bottom of it.

[00:12:22] But sometimes it gets convoluted when people bring in because it's like there's so much to this case that it offers, but you always see people nonetheless bringing in like any other kind of reason they can to follow the case and it's unbelievable.

[00:12:36] I like I say, I admit right off the bat that this does it. There's no question. It fills a void for me in that sense, but I absolutely 100% maintain that like I just and I don't care how I look.

[00:12:48] If at the end of this I look like a huge, you know, jackass, whatever, like it's fine. Like I just want to know what happened. That's pretty much it.

[00:12:55] That's kind of, you know, and I want in that sense, I want justice for the families because I think that's the closest semblance to justice that they're going to get is getting the best answers, you know? Absolutely. No, I think I think it's good.

[00:13:06] I mean, honestly, I think they're in true crime. There there is a level of entertainment there and finding that balance, but also being honest about this. This is entertainment, but we can still engage in it in a respectful and honest way.

[00:13:20] I think that's really important for people to kind of consider that and where they're coming from with true crime. Can you tell us how you began discussing the Delphi case online and what the online culture around the case was like when you started that process?

[00:13:36] Yeah, like I still feel like in 21 there it was, you know, people were waking up every day.

[00:13:44] I always used to joke that people would like eat their their their Wheaties and then they'd watch like the replay of like the 2019 press or something like that from Doug Carter because that was just what they people had, you know? There wasn't a lot out there.

[00:13:55] So it was mostly theory based. There was a lot of the, I don't know. I think at that time DP was the big the big thing.

[00:14:03] Everybody was obsessed with with that just like kind of almost like a niche kind of suspect that locals kind of were looking at but never really panned out as far as I was aware.

[00:14:12] And then you have the leak her thing and then late 2021, you know, Keegan comes on and that whole thing. So that's kind of the environment that I kind of slid into.

[00:14:23] And I think it's important to note it was very theory based and like the time where not much was known. So kind of made sense for it to be people sharing ideas and saying absolutely might have happened. Yeah, like the real quick, I'll just say like the impetus.

[00:14:38] The reason why I even started the Reddit sub for the Delphi not is because there was a problem and there still is a problem. I think there will always be a problem with this.

[00:14:47] But a lot of people like to start out there, their posts on social media without kind of prefacing it with like, hey, this is just a theory. You know, it's just the problem people. I don't know why but and then the line becomes blurred.

[00:14:58] So when this whole like DP thing was going on, a lot of those guys were getting in trouble on the subs because people were saying like, oh, you're saying this is fact and this is not. And it really wasn't.

[00:15:07] But so I said, you know, I'm going to make a sub that you don't even have to say this is a theory. It's just assumed that everything on here is a theory. But then go figure.

[00:15:15] It's not the most popular sub because nobody wants to say that kind of stuff. They want they want to imply that they have facts when it's mostly theory. I guess that's just kind of how it goes.

[00:15:25] And then how did you meet Courtney Parsons and Angie Szilowski like within this community?

[00:15:31] So in 2022, I pretty much summoned them from Reddit because myself and Meerkat were sort of assembling like a, I don't know if you want to call it like a super sleuth group on discord that pretty much, you know, ended up becoming the Delphi not discord.

[00:15:54] And then, well, then it became the not network, which is what we'll say that it's being paused right now. That makes that makes sense. And and what were your perceptions of those relationships at first? I guess. You know, initially, it was innocent.

[00:16:16] I mean, like we all wanted to know we all wanted to know what was going on in the case. There wasn't a ton of information. We started to get better information.

[00:16:27] And like the summer of 2022, there was some people had made some kind of more riskier moves, I guess, and trying to contact people closer to the case.

[00:16:37] I guess my biggest revelation in all that is and I hate to say this because I think people people have this idea that when the case is done, there's going to be like this big sign that pops out of the sky.

[00:16:47] And it's like, you know, you've won or like, you know, like this person is the killer or whatever. And it's I think on some level, it's all theory. You know what I mean? Like it's just whose theory you're going to go with.

[00:16:57] It's it's people who have the case file. People who are close to the case or, you know, lawyers or like experts, like everybody's it just everything is a theory. Everything is a theory at the end of the day.

[00:17:08] Right. It's just some people's theories are more warranted than others, I guess. But that's what I kind of take from from that era is that, yeah, you're going to learn different people's theories along the way.

[00:17:20] You know, doesn't really mean if somebody is more credible or less credible that their theory is also more credible or less credible. It everybody's got their own take on it, I guess, you know.

[00:17:32] Yeah, there's a lot of ambiguity to as you said, it's like things are not always clear cut in a case like this. One thing I was wondering is how did Barbara McDonald's theories in particular have an impact on this group early on?

[00:17:48] So we so as our information became a little bit better and I guess higher quality, we kind of wanted to verify some of the information kind of get like an alternative perspective or whatever.

[00:18:00] One day I saw Barb chatting on Reddit. She just kind of appeared randomly and just like Courtney and just like Angela, I said, hey, come on over and she was receptive and she was very gracious.

[00:18:12] She was, you know, but she shared her opinions in our discord and she didn't have to, you know, she could have probably elected not to or whatever, but she did and it was kind of in sync with some of the things that we had heard.

[00:18:25] And that's what I'm saying. Like everything is sort of like a theory, you know, it some people have access to better information, obviously. But, you know, I guess people's theories are their take on the case and I guess you take that into consideration.

[00:18:45] You have to consider that, I guess, when you incorporate theories into how you're what your understanding of the cases.

[00:18:52] Now, I guess what I'm trying to say is in a roundabout way, nobody has like better facts necessarily when they kind of convey their idea it's still going to have theory infused into it, you know, a little bit.

[00:19:03] So yeah, and that's so important to say because also, you know, you can be giving really good facts to everyone else and your interpretation could be flawed or it could just be, you know, influenced by your own biases. That's absolutely well said.

[00:19:18] Or could be spot on. I mean, not even, you know, it can be right. So with McDonald's she was of the her theory sort of centered Ron Logan is that right?

[00:19:29] Yeah, my understanding. Yeah, that's I would say when we when we brought her in and it was a very short amount of time. She wasn't in there for very long.

[00:19:38] She we expected her because at that time, the only thing that was kind of known about her takes on the case was that she interviewed Keegan right like so we she came in and I just thought okay well she's going to talk about Keegan you know and right away she

[00:19:53] immediately dismissed the Keegan thing. And she was like no it's not him and whatever and she you know pretty much she's kind of ambiguous in the way that she would kind of refer to like her theories.

[00:20:07] But then we had just recently heard about the Ron Logan theory from another source.

[00:20:13] You know what I deemed to be a pretty credible source and the more and more she started kind of she did almost like an AMA style discussion with a group of us and the more she started talking, I guess I kind of just said does your P.

[00:20:31] I that you're kind of vaguely referring to by any chance is there any is it possible that they're not currently alive because you know Ron had passed away earlier in the year.

[00:20:41] And she immediately DM'd me and we started talking and she's just like right away she was just very forward and she was just like you know why do you think it's wrong. And so I said you know I don't know if it's wrong.

[00:20:54] I'm definitely leaning in that direction because of things that I've just heard and what you know so we had a pretty pretty robust discussion after that point about and I'm not like I said I'm not blaming her for that direction at all.

[00:21:11] It was something that I had heard before I ever spoke to her but she but I definitely like was like wow you know like she's a journalist and she has to look into things and she verifies things so.

[00:21:20] And I and I think she still to this day believes that that Ron Logan could very well be you know somebody who's implicated in the crime in some way.

[00:21:32] Can you tell us how the YouTube channel the unraveling came to be and maybe explain who the owner of that channel is. Yeah so like after we kind of got things.

[00:21:46] So the Discord channel in 2022 as we started kind of recruiting people kind of took form and evolved from a couple iterations and then it ended up becoming the not network.

[00:21:59] We had always kind of like thrown around the idea of starting a YouTube channel and but we never really enacted those act on those plans.

[00:22:09] And then in the spring of 23 the images of Rick Allen started to come out with from the defense team where he was like you know emaciated and disheveled and it incensed us like it kind of lit a fire under us and we were like you know we kind of felt in a way that we had a mandate to

[00:22:28] maybe take to social media and so then I said hey let's you know what about that YouTube channel that we were thinking about.

[00:22:36] And it was still kind of just talk right so like there was like little salient aspects that we couldn't even agree on like it took us almost like a month just to come up with the name but still nobody's doing anything so one day I well immediately after we got the name I

[00:22:50] I got super serious about it. I made a title screen. I came up with the intro graphics music and then you know I created a Gmail account that was connected to all of the socials you know the YouTube Twitter Facebook TicToc so I created that that's you

[00:23:09] know in perpetuity and in every other sense of the word I am the owner of the unraveling but yeah it's important though that I always say like even though the impetus of the unraveling was absolutely our perceived mistreatment of Rick Allen.

[00:23:27] It was it's always I was always going to be within the context of a true crime channel but and I've said this on the channel before too is our mission statement is quite simply that when the book is effectively closed so to speak on the Delphi murders that it's like no no stone is left

[00:23:47] on turn like it's like everybody has as many questions as they can answer that's the only thing that we wanted to do and that was we agree we all agreed upon that initially and there's there's no negotiating that that was the mission statement and yeah like I said everybody was in

[00:24:02] agreement with that as far as I was to understand. That makes sense and it kind of goes back to what you were saying about a core value for you is in this you know in true crime in general is that search for the truth and answers. Exactly.

[00:24:18] I wanted to ask you you know one thing that I know we've talked about just you know in prior conversations. I thought this was really interesting. Just can you tell us more about your idea about the importance of having sort of boundaries with a true crime case and sort of what that separation can look like for you and why you think that you know could be important.

[00:24:42] And that kind of ties into with my acknowledgement that it's entertainment for me but it's real life for some people and it's not really fair for me to I guess in Hollywood terms even when they say breaking down the fourth wall to like I do make an honest effort to not do that if I can maybe Barb is the closest thing.

[00:25:06] Some people most people do not share that philosophy and sometimes it's fine. That's OK that people don't but like for instance I've had opportunities to you know through third parties to you know talk to people like Becky Patty or you know even Jerry Holman other people like that.

[00:25:24] Now if those people reach out to me or something like that for whatever reason that's fine but I am not going to do that partially because I don't think it's right but also it's just I want to just separate those things even for my viewing of the case and how I kind of approach the case it just it's better for me to do it that way.

[00:25:40] But yeah there's it's just it just makes more sense for me to do that and yeah set a boundary that I know is right for me at least.

[00:25:49] Yeah no I mean I obviously we don't do that. No yeah and I know but I'll tell you I think it actually makes sense for some people to do it that way I think there's different kind of ways you can approach true crime and I think what you're saying is kind of make sense from the perspective of I feel like you are kind of the classic Internet sleuth where

[00:26:08] you're trying to get at like okay what are some ideas how can we bounce this around kind of to try to get at the truth and in that setting it kind of makes sense to keep some separation yes if you're taking a more journalistic approach it can be different if you're taking

[00:26:21] Union based approach it can be different. Right no and I understand like when you're really trying to be like to you know get to the journalist part of it I totally understand why somebody would be like no I got to reach out and talk to this person no I'm not I'm not being critical of I'm saying for me.

[00:26:35] I think I'm saying I think it makes sense and I think I think one thing and listen I think I've been guilty of this too you know we tend to talk about true crime as if it's a monolith but it's not it's actually different approaches can work and we should talk about like what what those different avenues

[00:26:51] Yeah especially like when I guess in this case when it's it I mean I know like Doug Carter gets upset when people say like you know a cold case or whatever at that time but when there's so many years that have gone by and they don't have answers yeah it's like you got to get you got to think about it in a lot of different contexts

[00:27:08] and ways to kind of get to an answer I mean so yeah. I'm curious what sort of things got out about the witness Betsy Blair prior to the release of the Franks memorandum.

[00:27:19] So allegedly it was it was told to us well allegedly it was told to Courtney or maybe Angela whichever one from Matt Hoffman that one of the witnesses just a second who is Matt Hoffman Matt Hoffman is I guess I don't know what his official title is I know that he is

[00:27:41] a PI that works for Andrew Baldwin I don't know if he's like the lead PI I don't know if that's a thing but he's a PI for Andrew Baldwin.

[00:27:52] You know he just said kind of mentioned that this you know after that information dump happened in June of 23 where people learned people's names he says oh yeah you know like that Betsy Blair she's refuting what's in the PCA.

[00:28:10] So and that's all I mean again and that's alleged that's an alleged thing that I don't I can't vouch for that myself but it's what was relayed to me and then obviously you saw in the Franks memo about a month or two after we had been told that or that the girls have been told that.

[00:28:25] It did come to fruition at least in terms of flat filings. So it's interesting like there's kind of this contact with Hoffman and I'm curious was there an associated sort of shift in culture rhetoric discussions around both the not as well as the unraveling.

[00:28:49] So what I would say is in our discord for a very long time when we would talk about things people kind of didn't know how to take it like as far as some of the things that we'd claim and I think once the Franks memo came out some of the things that we had kind of talked about in private or whatever to groups of people.

[00:29:10] It was like oh my god like these guys do actually talk to some people and it there was there was absolutely a dynamic shift.

[00:29:19] People were just a lot more I don't know there wasn't any there wasn't a whole lot of pushback on anything we ever did like as far as skepticism.

[00:29:28] It just I guess it seemed that we were validated in a way and some of the things that we had been saying at least to their understanding of it because for a long time if you're going to you know like you have some of these discussions about like Ron Logan or things that like things

[00:29:48] that are harder to prove or at least things that people aren't going to come out like for example like like bar McDonald when she's on court TV and things like that or when she's in mainstream media she doesn't really opine about like the case a lot it's just covering the basic facts so when we start saying oh you know Barb said this Barb said that.

[00:30:06] No she didn't I saw her on court TV last week and she's you know she's talking about Keegan or whatever you know.

[00:30:12] But in this instance you have these high profile lawyers echoing what we said months prior so it kind of gave us a little bit more credibility I guess you could say and people were just there was absolutely dynamic shift I feel.

[00:30:27] Makes sense and one thing I was just wondering is to lock this down before we ask more questions around this is so there was contact with.

[00:30:35] Can you tell us about the kind of level of contact at this point with Hoffman and sort of what that entailed and what that looked like.

[00:30:43] All I can say is what I've been told like through I've never spoken to Matt Hoffman directly so everything regarding Hoffman is an asterisk with allegedly.

[00:30:56] But I do know that at some point and I don't know how the contact was established or whatever it was mainly Angela who did start talking to him.

[00:31:08] And yeah that's you know every once in a while I would she would kind of share information with myself and Courtney and sometimes we'd share it with the larger group and the veracity of it.

[00:31:19] Any of those items I can't speak to I just know what I was told you know at that time and to be clear anything that I say here. I'm not doing it.

[00:31:30] I'm not coming out and saying this stuff to be like I'm going to get you in trouble it's not about that it's more about my suspicions around the motivations behind doing so.

[00:31:44] I have a very controversial take on information being shared it's not what most people how most people feel as far as you know like this gag order and all that kind of stuff.

[00:31:54] But if it's under the guise of we are being we are in a situation that's very oppressive. We can't talk about things we can't get our message out we need the help of content creators and YouTubers.

[00:32:09] That's one thing but if it's something else to manipulate a narrative or something like that which it sort of feels like that in some instances I'm not going to be a part of that like I'm not going to be used in that way.

[00:32:23] And that's how it feels in some cases.

[00:32:27] So like there's a level of concern just to make sure I understand that there's a level of concern from you that essentially like people everyday people who don't have a legal background may be being manipulated to a certain extent to spread a message rather than you know more so than anything else is that fair to say is that kind of where your concerns are.

[00:32:51] Yeah, that's that's how it feels.

[00:32:54] Something just don't add up and you know even in the event that maybe some of the information is correct and I'm wrong which I guess certainly is in the realm of possibility I don't think it's very likely but if I am wrong on that I still think that there needs to be some consideration for the ramifications I guess that have occurred because of that and some of the destructive behaviors of people maybe they weren't predictable but at least.

[00:33:20] At this point they should stop because people for whatever reason if there's like a viral quality to the way that some of these people are reacting to this that it's like overtaking their lives and it's causing destruction in their lives and I'm seeing it you know to the some of these people and it's it's irresponsible.

[00:33:40] To do this especially if it's not embedded in truth to the knowledge of these guys or at least to Matt Hoffman. What did the defense claim about their experience with the pathologist lab.

[00:33:56] Something occurred in February which maybe we'll talk about that but I sort of was told something that kind of made me reevaluate a bunch of stuff and one of the first things I went back to was the fact that at the end of last summer it was kind of suggested by Matt Hoffman that allegedly.

[00:34:20] Again that the you know as you see like in some of the discovery or in some of the motions that are filed they are not getting things that they feel like they should be getting in the discovery so it was said that.

[00:34:32] They didn't have the autopsy report and it was kind of odd because. That's kind of late in the game to not be having the autopsy report so.

[00:34:40] They kind of suggested that they had to reach out to this lab to get a copy of that and they said that the lab assistant there was kind of giving them the run around.

[00:34:52] And then the part that kind of annoyed me like so when I said like I learned this thing in February and I came back to look at when the Franks memo came out.

[00:35:01] I've never believed the Odinism stuff but I thought that at least the components that were it were. You know true but Courtney was actually the first one to kind of point out that like in the fine print when you look at it.

[00:35:14] They do make it a point to say that their description of the crime scene in in that memo is entirely based on like pictorial analysis of the crime scene photos and she's like you know where's mention of the autopsy report.

[00:35:26] And so then they once again went back and asked off like well how come you guys didn't use the autopsy report and his alleged explanation at that point was like well you know we did finally get a copy of that but we just we don't believe it's very accurate.

[00:35:42] And to me that's problematic because so if you're going to make this memo and you're going to explain these things and you want to do it in a balanced way why not say OK this is what we see but just so you know this is what the autopsy report shows you decide.

[00:36:01] You know what I mean as opposed and it's it's it's just kind of a sneaky it's it's cheap it's a cheap trick like let people decide and you know is it because what the actual autopsy shows is makes a lot more sense than somebody fleeing from the crime scene with like a mountain do jug full of blood or whatever they're trying to say.

[00:36:23] I mean that's ridiculous so yeah I don't buy it but but those are one of the things that I went back and I kind of reevaluated and it made me kind of think twice like what's going on here man but.

[00:36:34] Were there other sort of red flags so to speak with the Frank's memorandum that sort of raised your hackles a bit when you read it when you read the theory of the defense's theory of the crime. That was the big one.

[00:36:48] What made you not love the Odinism theory. In just in general. Well there was there was an exchange in February that really kind of made me know that I my suspicions were right but just in general.

[00:37:05] Even before like when I first read that first line I was just like the biggest I roll you can imagine like you could hear it you know it's like so like.

[00:37:14] The thing is as I pointed out before that it is true year after year the sleuthing community does they do get it wrong and Delphi however that's I don't believe.

[00:37:24] That that is the only takeaway I think that they can still learn things along the way and to me Brad Holder is just he's just the usual suspect. If it would have been as simple as somebody like Brad Holder having done this.

[00:37:41] It's not even just about like this potential investigation that went awry or whatever there would be other quote unquote tentacles and somebody likes to use that phrase in this in this case that would kind of crop out from somebody like Brad Holder being the killer I believe.

[00:37:56] And again there's people who have because he is that kind of he has that kind of presence. There are people who have like loads and loads of information and data on him and I just feel like everybody would have known by now if it was him.

[00:38:11] That's just my but yeah yeah that's that's kind of my feel my initial that was my initial take on it and I even said that on the channel I you know I I kind of said I'm going to put the odinism stuff aside but I at least thought.

[00:38:26] That the claims were based in the defense team's own beliefs that that it could be odinism. You've heard a couple of times to something that happened in February. So yeah yeah so in February I had a conversation a text message exchange with Courtney and she pretty much.

[00:38:56] I don't know it's like I don't know if you've ever had a conversation with somebody when like they tell you something and they almost don't understand like the magnitude or the significance of it entirely somehow.

[00:39:10] So what we were discussing because I wanted to do a Ron Logan episode at something that I want to do for a really long time.

[00:39:15] I think after the defense team because we were planning on doing one in the fall and then when the defense team dropped the Franks memo because we really despite some of the things that were being shared allegedly we had no idea that they were going in this odinism direction at all.

[00:39:30] It was a totally we were totally taken in it's odd because some other creators did know I think even like Rick snag kind of mentioned it on his on one of his lives before the Franks memo.

[00:39:41] So there was a time when we were going to do this this Ron Logan episode then once this came out it was like nah we're going to hold on to that I'm like come on you know everybody knows that we like really we believe that it's Ron like let's do this episode so I went ahead and did my own.

[00:39:58] In February and the girls didn't want anything to do with it but kind of in the talks about how I was going to approach that episode.

[00:40:07] It was just kind of casually stated to me that Hoffman allegedly told Courtney he said quote there's two pass here one of them solves the crime and then the other one freeze Rick.

[00:40:20] And it was just said no not a ton of thought given to you know to it beyond that and I just thought what does that mean like I mean come on like you know but again it was in the context of Ron and if he was a potential you know suspect or whatever to them.

[00:40:43] But you know I would eventually it bothered me to the point where I eventually came back to that comment and I confronted them about it.

[00:40:51] And it's like I told them I said you know maybe a month or two later that conversation is like when it comes to you to that's like when the music died because for me because I really I couldn't get past that like I just couldn't that's not something that I can negotiate.

[00:41:05] They claim that it was that no that's not the way that it was said or whatever but I mean it's pretty clear if that's what he said that I mean it's an acknowledgement to me that that they know that this Odinism thing is nonsense.

[00:41:22] So what are we doing here you know that's ridiculous. Right and yeah I mean it's it's often a risk to do a third party suspect in the first place so. Right.

[00:41:33] And I imagine from you your perspective as someone who wants to get at the truth that's especially frustrating.

[00:41:39] Absolutely yeah and I tried to I tried to voice my opinion about it and you know it was just well you know you're not a team player anymore that's kind of how that was going on behind the scenes since like early February.

[00:41:53] Is that was that a shift going from a place where you could almost talk about any theory and kind of discuss the merits to a place where perhaps that was.

[00:42:04] Yeah it's almost more that than it is even just because it would have been different if everybody would have everybody's suspicions would have been erased and I could be like OK but I was like the odd man out you know it's like what are you talking about like.

[00:42:17] There's this there's this presumption and I see this on the prosecution maximalist side as well that everybody kind of assumes that there's all this information that somebody has that they're basing this on so like when something doesn't add up it's like well wait you don't know.

[00:42:37] You know but like with the defense maximalists now it's it's the exact same thing while they're saying these things but you don't know why they're saying it they have they have all the discovery they're saying.

[00:42:46] There might be a good reason why and it's like OK show me the money then where like I feel like we'd have already seen something that indicates holder in the fact of the matter is is you know I'm not a lawyer you know the everybody practices you know that's the big thing to

[00:43:04] that too because it's true but I also think that even just the insinuation that Brad Holder's alibi isn't is somehow weak I mean it's it's the standard alibi he's punched in at work like what are you talking about like I don't even understand that like I don't know it's frustrating.

[00:43:20] Yeah and what you're saying is so true I mean I remember for years it would drive me crazy when you have people being you know saying things like well you know Doug Carter must have phrased this in this way because he's playing some 5D chess.

[00:43:35] The Q and on stuff yeah.

[00:43:37] It's like no like I know people when they when they want a side to be correct they imbue that side with all sorts of amazing absolutely and like thoughtfulness and it's like let's just assume everyone involved as a human being who's probably trying their breath. Absolutely yeah.

[00:43:56] It's laughable for sure I agree it's. No but what you're saying is like so true and it definitely resonates.

[00:44:01] I wanted to ask just to go more into this with the kind of shift just what were the connections we talked a little bit about Matt Hoffman but also the previous investigator Jason Jensen what were the connections they had to the sort of online Delphi community as far as you understand.

[00:44:25] So I don't have any working knowledge of the actual how that works I don't even really know how I up supposedly Matt Hoffman really is it's it was conveyed to me that he allegedly is their top PI and there are certainly reasons to believe that because like I said like some of the

[00:44:44] filings information that he would share would would be part of the filings I mean that's in a way sort of I mean at least if you're you know there's reason to believe that that is true but I don't know Jason Jensen was briefly mentioned early on.

[00:45:00] As having a specific role of some sort in terms of his PI work and then he was not used after that that was my understanding but I don't know anything beyond that and I don't know the dynamic between PIs and how they did that I'm not even sure.

[00:45:15] Can you tell us about the event that was called grounds well. Yeah so like ironically or maybe not so much.

[00:45:26] I didn't know anything about grounds well as it was occurring it was very it was just this buzzword that started popping up everywhere and it was odd because like in September of last year myself and Angela went to Delphi or went to Indiana to film for the CW documentary

[00:45:48] and I know that after we had left there was kind of like a from from Angela anyways there was just this sort of alright I've got my fill from from Indiana I don't need to go back there because that was the first time she had ever been there.

[00:46:03] And so it was a shock to me that once November came around she just kind of willy-nilly was like oh going right back so I was just kind of wait a minute what's going on that's that's odd.

[00:46:14] But yeah it was I guess it was a I don't know was the Supreme Court was gonna make decision here on on on the writ or whatever I believe that was like the the event that happened at grounds well if I'm not mistaken maybe you guys know better but.

[00:46:28] Angela kind of touted herself as a community organizer that kind of thing she had kind of said that she had done it before so I was just kind of questioning the very short amount of time.

[00:46:41] That they kind of threw it together and I don't feel like people had enough time to even plan to go to that so you know and I told them when they did it like I actually do think that they're.

[00:46:53] That Courtney Angela are very brave for for going out there I would have my own reservations of doing it myself but the optics of it when you see like there's like.

[00:47:03] You can't even go into double digits hardly of the people who showed up for it it doesn't look good you know so but yeah I couldn't go anyways because. I was in Puerto Rico like at the end of last summer and then when I came back.

[00:47:18] I went to go to Indiana for the film for that CW and then it just I wasn't going to make it back to Indiana and anyways. Bert for that event but yeah it was it was kind of odd to me that. It kind of went down like that.

[00:47:36] Right you think you'd want more lead time planning it. Yeah even other people like just so people can yeah I mean I think that that they did it in a matter of weeks like it was only like.

[00:47:48] Two or three weeks that people had to plan and it's I don't know I also tend to think that locally there's there's just like a different feeling.

[00:47:56] Versus like worldwide I do think people in Indiana tend to in that area sort of tend to believe that that Rick Allen is more likely to be.

[00:48:08] Guilty and I think worldwide people are a little bit more open to maybe other ways of looking at things or however you want to say it.

[00:48:16] But you know again you give people more time you might have at least a better appearing out outcome I guess it just it again there just wasn't. It didn't look impressive on camera for for what they were trying to achieve for support for Alan.

[00:48:33] Right you bring up a really interesting point about sort of the local scene in Indiana versus sort of the Internet and I think that's in.

[00:48:42] That we've seen play out I will say that in our experience just living here I think people were pretty split about guilt or innocence until relatively recently.

[00:48:53] I think the thing that people had a harder time believing locally was the idea of a large scale conspiracy operating here I think a lot of the assumptions about. Carol County being like the most corrupt place on earth.

[00:49:08] I think people kind of you know when you live when you live in a place you're like I don't really see that whether you know I mean I think it's easier when you're on the outside to be like everyone's in on it you know right.

[00:49:18] But definitely it's interesting to shift. Locally with guilt or innocence. I want to ask what one thing with grounds well you know did Courtney and Angela talk about you know meeting anyone associated with the case as far as that went.

[00:49:34] So, allegedly, yeah they had kind of. Yeah they indicated that at some point I don't know. I think it was either it might have been before or after the actual date that they had met with Matt Hoffman how that occurred.

[00:49:50] I'm not entirely sure if they met him at Walmart or you know their hotel something along those lines they met him. Yeah. And what did they tell you about what happened at that meeting.

[00:50:06] They they at least discussed the case in a lot more detail than most people have knowledge of in the public. And yeah it's whether they were.

[00:50:24] It was just talked about or they were shown anything I'm not sure but at some point they their knowledge and their understanding of the case kind of exceeded pretty significantly like what it was prior to that.

[00:50:38] At least that's the impression that they were given you know I don't know I can't say for sure what they they shared after that is is legitimate but I don't know.

[00:50:50] Obviously we weren't there you weren't there the only people who are there Courtney Angela and allegedly Matt Hoffman did they claim that he showed them anything.

[00:51:02] I mean I don't it's hard to say because they didn't really talk about it in that way they just kind of mentioned what they kind of knew after that point so I would think it'd be hard for him not to have.

[00:51:13] But I don't know if it was done in a way that was like oh here's this here's this here's this I don't think it was that I think it was just kind of like you know at any rate you need to know this you need to know that.

[00:51:28] Yeah he did kind of indicate that because you have to you have to understand at this time they're off the case right like they're there they're the defense team is not in the case.

[00:51:38] And this and again this is all allegedly but they had said that they were concerned that something could potentially happen to them and that in the event that they're not allowed back on the case or even something worse happens that somebody really needed to kind of

[00:51:55] like you know bear the torture you know have you know take the information so that it was in the hands of somebody who could maybe do something with it one day.

[00:52:05] Right so that was sort of allegedly sort of what Matt Hoffman is saying is like us on the defense team we're we're we're scared that the Odinists will come after us.

[00:52:16] Yeah yeah and that was that was a part of it as well that I I always understand it.

[00:52:22] I don't know it's weird because I'm so skeptical of the Odinist thing but I mean I can even imagine a snare where just because they're insisting on going in this direction that maybe they did make some Odinists anger with them.

[00:52:37] I don't know I don't know or it could just be something that you know I always think of when I think of that claim from him.

[00:52:46] I can't help but think of there's a movie called True Lies with Arnold Schwarzenegger I don't know if you guys are familiar with it where there's this there's a there's a so Jamie Lee Curtis is married to Arnold Schwarzenegger and there's

[00:52:59] a guy that she works with who's claiming to be like this like CIA operative and it turns out he's just like a you know a fake or whatever but he's kind of trying to make it sound like all impressive and whatever and I don't know I just imagine Hoffman trying to make it sound like he's

[00:53:11] like in like all this grave danger to sound cool or something I don't know I don't really know the how the transaction or you know the information was shared. It's just yeah it's just what I've been told some of these things.

[00:53:25] It seems very over the top of it. And so did did Angela or Courtney ever share messages that purported to be from Hoffman with you.

[00:53:37] Yes, I do know just as a matter of fact that they they were in contact I mean I guess I should still put allegedly in front of it because I mean I guess in a crazy scenario they could have fabricated that but I don't think they did I do believe that they really

[00:53:51] were in contact with each other. I will say that some of the more shocking claims that I had heard were not in text format, not prove I guess I don't have proof of them it's it was just more casual conversations of the things that I'd seen.

[00:54:07] But yeah, make sense and and one thing I was what sort of shocking claims are you referring to and the people who do this.

[00:54:17] That's very, yeah the most what struck me the most out of all the things that they had shared with me is that allegedly they claim that when they did finally get either the data or actually I don't know I don't know how it would have

[00:54:34] happened in discovery if it's if it's in what in what format but they they were able to gleaned from some kind of information that when you look at the girl when you look at Libby's phone.

[00:54:46] There and you look at the metadata for the infamous bridge guy video that you can see the time is in accordance with what the narrative has always been the date is in accordance with what has always been.

[00:55:03] And the footage itself when you look at it is in fact the girls and then the the portion where bridge guy appears.

[00:55:12] But they claim then that the GPS location does not align with the mode on high bridge and you can you can start to do all the, you know the calculations and the gymnastics in your head about how how that could be.

[00:55:27] It's very confusing if that's true or not. Again, maybe it's true. But if I had to guess there's probably some kind of a rational explanation that I'd be just speculating but I mean it's an odd thing if it's true.

[00:55:46] I'm curious, you know did Angela and Courtney mentioned anything about meeting with Baldwin and Rosie around this time or anytime. They never have Angela was always adamant that she had never met them.

[00:56:02] But I do know that when she was initially subpoenaed for the contempt hearing her and Courtney well she had done at least zooms with with Baldwin but I think that was just kind of in accordance with the fact that they were going to be taking the stand.

[00:56:20] I think it'd be very similar to like what you know you've heard about maybe I don't know I don't know who was kind of reporting on it saying that like like Julie Melvin and skip Jansen were talking with the defense team.

[00:56:32] Kind of prep getting prepped for things that they it's something along those lines. If there's anything beyond that. I'm not aware of it I've never they've never shared that with me I feel like they would but I don't know. Makes sense. Yes, it's standard.

[00:56:46] I'm not sure if that was a paraphrase from Angela or I had actually seen a text conversation where he says something along those lines. I think, again, I'll put this under the allegedly column. Everything is going to be fine.

[00:57:01] I don't know if it's going to be a good thing. I don't know if it's going to be a good thing. I don't know if it's going to be a good thing. I don't know if it's going to be a good thing.

[00:57:09] I think he says something along those lines. I think, again, I'll put this under the allegedly column.

[00:57:16] Everything is obviously but I want to say that he had said something along the lines of indicating that the case against Alan is like so incredibly weak that they are actually concerned that the only way that they're going to be able to convict him as if they fabricate some kind of evidence.

[00:57:38] I think. And again, I don't know if that was Angela just saying that or if that was actually from Hoffman, but it was certainly indicated that Hoffman had said this.

[00:57:46] I'm just trying to remember if I actually saw a conversation to kind of support that or if it was just a claim that Angela made. I don't remember now. That makes sense. And we appreciate you kind of. Yeah, yeah.

[00:58:00] I'm curious about that in a way of like what you've seen and what you've almost been told. I'm curious, you know, there was a time regarding the leak where an email that we sent to the defense team ended up circulating. Can you tell us about that time?

[00:58:21] Yeah, so when Courtney and Angela were leaving groundswell, I believe. In Angela's case, she was actually on the plane when I got this text. But I got in a text and Angela was a little bit annoyed.

[00:58:38] Courtney was absolutely irate with me like she I don't she almost like didn't talk to me for like a week or two after this happened. But they said that Andrew Baldwin had just gotten a really threatening letter from the murder sheet.

[00:58:50] And in the body of this email, it was a screenshot of the discord and a comment that I had made. Other references in the episodes we released today about this allegedly threatening email we sent to Andrew Baldwin in late November 2023.

[00:59:06] Whenever this comes up, we're going to try to make it very clear that this email was not in the least bit threatening. It was in fact a simple request for comment.

[00:59:14] On a public discord, Paul had written a message indicating that attempts have been made to warn the defense team about a possible leak well before the disastrous leak of crime scene photos. Paul indicated that the defense team had not seemed terribly interested in this warning.

[00:59:27] We did not want to run this information on our program without first contacting Andrew Baldwin and asking if it was true. Our email wasn't an attempt to be fair to him. It was not a threat. Any suggestion otherwise is false.

[00:59:41] If it becomes necessary, we will release the relevant email so everyone can see that they do indeed support our version of events. Paul shared with us the story of how Angela Sidlowski did indeed discover a possible leak on the defense side well before the crime scene photo leak.

[00:59:56] In our discussion, we used the real name of the person we have referred to as R. R is the man who received crime scene photos from Mitch Westerman, who is a close friend of defense attorney Andrew Baldwin. As the photos began to circulate more widely, R committed suicide.

[01:00:13] We wish to respect the privacy of his family and so we have declined to use his name. Because of that, we will paraphrase this portion of our talk with Paul. R was active on a Reddit group to discuss the Delphi murders.

[01:00:26] Many people on this group, including R, posted under names that were obviously not their real identities. For some reason, R became convinced that one of these posters, a person who went by the name Helix Harbinger, was in fact Sidlowski.

[01:00:41] At the same time, it was also clear to people in that Reddit group that R seemed to have special information about the case that was not widely known. Concerned about all of this, Sidlowski reached out to Matt Hoffman, an investigator for the defense team.

[01:00:54] Hoffman indicated that he did not know who R was and speculated that his special information may have indicated that R had a connection to someone who was recently deposed in the case. No further action appears to have been taken from there.

[01:01:07] We saw this anecdote as a sign that the defense received an early warning about a leak and could perhaps have acted to stop it before the crime scene photos were circulated.

[01:01:15] Let's now rejoin Paul as he discusses why he shared the anecdote. We will remove any further mention of R's name.

[01:01:21] But my whole point in that was, when I just said that was, you know, and this was months later, I just said something along the lines of, you know, they didn't, the defense team really sincerely did not know who and was at that point, or at least Hoffman didn't, because Angela asked him and he genuinely didn't know.

[01:01:37] And I remember that because that conversation happened when I was on the highway in Indiana from the CW. It was around that time, like mid September, because of that Reddit exchange, he, the girls looked into him just to be sure, like who is this guy?

[01:01:58] But for all I know, after Hoffman was aware of who he was, I don't know that he did anything with that. All he might have just been like, yeah, whatever, who is this guy who knows, you know, whatever, and then just moved on.

[01:02:07] But yeah, they were pretty upset because they're like, you know, you need to be careful about what you say in the discord and things like that, because, you know, you're going to get these guys in trouble or whatever.

[01:02:17] And yeah, that was, I kind of got, you know, reprimanded for that a little bit. Sorry. Oh, no, it's not even that. That's not the point. I'm just saying that was just a yeah. And I don't know.

[01:02:33] I don't know if I can't even say for sure that well, I mean Baldwin had to have known because but it could have just been a conversation between Baldwin and Hoffman. I don't really know that Baldwin ever was aware that Angela was contacted. You know what I mean?

[01:02:46] Like I don't know enough about that dynamic. I'm not sure. I mean, Baldwin has to know who Angela is now if he's had a zoom meeting with her apparently but like I don't know that he's aware of the full extent that she knows what she knows.

[01:02:59] You know what I mean? No, I think it's important to state, you know, it's it's a it's possibly a connection through Matt Hoffman and no. Yeah. I'm curious, there's also a story out there involving a laptop belonging to some YouTuber that I think we're not going to name.

[01:03:17] But can you tell us that anecdote? Yeah, so it was maybe late April or mid April or something like that. I know it was just shortly before the previous trial date that everybody was kind of like, you know, waiting for anticipating.

[01:03:37] I had learned that Matt Hoffman had gone to the home of a YouTuber to retrieve a hard drive that belonged to another YouTuber for what? I don't know.

[01:03:53] But as far as I think it has something to do with a theory that Michael Osbrook had that the YouTuber may have been involved in the crime somehow.

[01:04:02] But the significance to me is and it was a red flag to me as well because you know, it's literally weeks before this trial.

[01:04:13] And this is how you guys are choosing to spend your time to look into this silly theory that this YouTuber had something to do with the crime. But also it was again this from the defense maximalist side where everybody's discussing this in private circles. There was no concern.

[01:04:35] It wasn't like a concern, like should they really be doing this? Everybody was like almost cheering it on like, what's wrong with you guys? Like this is bad. This is not good.

[01:04:44] The fact that they're wasting their time on this tells me that it's just another indication that they're just, I don't know. For me, it just seems like they're screwing around. They're not taking stuff seriously.

[01:04:57] But then you know, a couple weeks later they go into this pre-trial meeting and they're like, oh, we're not ready and all this stuff. And I don't know. For me, I'm an action person over words and you know, actions just kind of speak more so to intent.

[01:05:14] And the fact that they weren't ready to go when previously we had been told, oh, they're ready to go next week if need be. What happened? You know what happened to that? So I don't know.

[01:05:24] Kind of lost faith in this idea that they have this like very, very strong case for Rick. I wanted to ask, you know, you're kind of describing feeling uncomfortable with some of the rhetoric and losing faith in the defense team to that extent.

[01:05:40] When did it get to the point where you were starting thinking like I need to remove myself from this space because it's just, it's too toxic? You know, it's really, it was that exchange with Courtney.

[01:05:57] It just kind of weighed on me where she just kind of, it wasn't even so much.

[01:06:03] It was the information, but it was also just the lack of awareness that her and Angela both had in the implication that they were more like vested in a particular outcome than knowing the truth or getting the truth for everybody who's interested,

[01:06:23] especially the families and things like that. You know, that's the only reason why again, and that's why I try to hammer that home. But it's what I try to do. You know, I don't have, you know, I've watched this in the true crime community.

[01:06:38] I've seen people over the course of eight years now, people have used this case to try and get laid. People have tried to make money. People have tried to do whatever you want to do, you know, network, do all these things.

[01:06:55] And I don't, I think those are all fine if those things happen, but they shouldn't be your number one priority. So just these, I don't do that.

[01:07:05] I feel like there should be a very clear cut why people are doing what they're doing and nothing else should be, should matter. So when something like that is kind of bold-faced, just stated and then it's like, oh yeah, business as usual. It's like, that's weird. That's weird.

[01:07:21] I can't do that anymore. You know? I really commend you for that. And thank you so much for saying that because they think that people need to understand that people do use this case for any number of things or even just getting attention. Like that sounds so...

[01:07:35] It's astounding. It is crazy. It's astounding and it's, as you said, it's okay to, you know, for those things to happen as a byproduct of doing good work or doing... Right. But like, it actually shouldn't be the sole goal of our project. You're preaching the gospel.

[01:07:54] Yeah, no, exactly. Yeah. I wanted to ask you if you could talk us through your decision to sort of, at least for the time being and the unraveling. Yeah, so basically there's a lot of ways that I could answer this and there's not just one reason.

[01:08:13] The easiest way for me to explain this, there's very specific reasons that I have. But in general, the best way to explain it is that it's like how I say it's one thing to be accused of being the supporter of a child murder.

[01:08:32] And it's another thing to actually be one. I feel that if you're not scrutinizing information and things like that, you're not doing a good job of making sure that, again, the difference there is more on the side of just being accused.

[01:08:49] So once I started voicing some concerns and I wanted to kind of explore or examine alternative things that maybe just didn't align with Alan being innocent, I got a little bit of pushback and my, you know, I started to diverge with the girls as that kept occurring.

[01:09:08] You know, you have this problem where I think they look at it as an arithmetic problem where it's, you know, two versus one. But at the end of the day, you know, like again, if I believed that wholeheartedly like I did at one point that Alan was innocent,

[01:09:27] I'm okay being wrong at the end of the day. That's different. But when there's reason to kind of question that and it's just not going to be explored, I'm all of a sudden not okay with, you know, maybe some other ramifications of that.

[01:09:40] I mean, there could be legal ramifications or could be or just even sentiment, you know, people just saying like, oh, these people are, you know, they supported a child killer.

[01:09:49] But it goes from what they I think they believe to an arithmetic problem two versus one where it's just an integer with me. It's one because I own the Google account.

[01:10:00] I could see a scenario where somebody says later on, oh, you don't know that that was me making that Twitter post.

[01:10:07] There's three of us here, you know, so it's like, I have to think about that and say how much am I really willing to be on the hook for when I don't even believe some of these core things.

[01:10:18] That these guys believe anymore. And they're going on Twitter and saying stuff that's pretty, you know, aggressive or whatever.

[01:10:25] I don't personally believe that legally, you know, I think free speech does cover quite a bit, but that there's some areas where you could argue, you know, especially after the trial. I don't know, maybe civil stuff or whatever.

[01:10:37] I don't want to be if I don't believe what they're saying, why should I take the take the rat potentially? You know, I that was that's this most the most simple answer to that as far as the reason why there's other.

[01:10:51] There's plenty of reasons my understanding of things as time went on and stuff to my thing.

[01:10:56] What I will say is I almost envision a future where one day they almost thank me for doing it because there's there's a lot that they need to consider that they might they're not aware of too. So I'll just kind of leave it at that.

[01:11:10] What sort of harassment have you received since you took that step? Oh, yeah. No, I, you know, I expected some pushback.

[01:11:20] I guess with that one, I will. I'll just say that I understand the pushback, but without going into too much detail, people just shouldn't cross certain lines and they did. I won't go into detail. I'm not going to describe myself as a victim in that sense.

[01:11:39] I but they, you know, they know what they did and and I'll just leave it at that.

[01:11:45] I understand some of it to an extent, but yeah, I mean, you can't cry and stuff about certain things and complain about things that have happened to you and then you turn around and you do the same thing like you can't do that like but whatever.

[01:11:58] I guess it is what it is.

[01:12:00] I wanted to ask you and actually before I asked the next question, this is kind of an additional question. So hope that's okay. It just, you know, with with the unraveling we're going to be doing some episodes on some of the private messages group messages within the the

[01:12:18] Twitter or X account of the unwrapped and can you just state like in terms of who was actually messaging on that platform, given that there were three people who had access to it. Can you just clarify who yes.

[01:12:35] I guess I just assumed that people know that and they certainly do not. But I even though the Twitter account was in my name and I created it and everything like that. Yes, Angela did use that Twitter account quite a bit.

[01:12:50] I mean, she pretty much always did the only time I ever kind of went on there and posted anything was just to kind of promote like a YouTube or something like that whatever. But there was a DM called the due process gang.

[01:13:01] And this is something that I point out because in tandem to what was going on with the sort of the dissolution of me Courtney and Angela.

[01:13:14] And our group and the unraveling at the same time. I guess how I'll say it is, well, I'll explain it like this. That's this Twitter DM. There was Bob Mata, Caroline a key.

[01:13:29] The end of adding Michael Osbrook and sleuthie. And I'll say one thing about sleuthie before I go into this.

[01:13:37] I feel like sleuthie is very talented. And I feel that if she would have gotten into the case earlier, she would be, I think she would have, you know, she would understand have a way better understanding and she has a skill set and whatever that that is valuable.

[01:13:53] But because she entered kind of late in the game, I think that she's she doesn't understand like the reasons why Brad Holder is just not the guy. But it takes it takes a long time to I think to understand the learning curve with with all the different iterations of Delphi and how complicated things are.

[01:14:12] But like at the first of the year, this that that that Twitter group formed. And I just kind of noticed that Courtney and Angela were spending a little bit more time in there, as opposed to like our other private groups and stuff like that.

[01:14:23] And when Kara had gone on a podcast, I don't know if it was Bob Mata's podcast or something like that. She kind of had mentioned that when she was working with the defense team for the Supreme Court that in her interactions with Brad Nandy, that she felt that she said something

[01:14:39] along the lines of, you know, if they have what I think they have, they have a slam dunk case. So when this Twitter group formed, I'm thinking like I'm going to grab my bowl of popcorn and, you know, like the Michael Jackson meme, you know, kind of just like watch, you know, so I paid attention at first.

[01:14:56] But I just wasn't impressed their, their, their understanding of the case was just very rudimentary. I guess what I learned in that is that you can have experience, you know, as a lawyer detective or whatever, and no no offense to Kevin I mean I'm saying like I think I think legal

[01:15:15] expertise is great. But you additionally have to have a decent amount of, you know, time in the case to understand. Otherwise, it's just they're just the stuff they were saying there was absolutely ridiculous. And I and that was another thing that kind of it made me just kind of question.

[01:15:36] Okay, yeah, these this whole defense maximalist position is pretty flawed. It's people kind of like pushing around their letters and their name and stuff like that and there isn't a whole lot to it.

[01:15:53] I'm trying to think of like a good example maybe from there. I mean just just even just Osbrook like Michael Osbrook obviously a brilliant dude, but it's not going to add up to a whole lot if you don't do your homework and really immerse yourself in the case because somebody who's who's maybe

[01:16:11] following and shitposting on on on Facebook for years probably has even if they've been wrong over and over and over again they might have a better understanding of the case than Osbrook given what his theory on the cases it's silly.

[01:16:24] When I kind of raised those concerns to Courtney and Angela, I had said to them, hey, can you pull these guys aside and just be like, you know, kind of knowledge them on on on some of these things because we've been here for a minute, you know, it matters.

[01:16:39] And again, their whole thing is you don't know what information they're privy to what what discovery they have what they're you know and I'm just thinking like no.

[01:16:48] No, like you know better than that and they just they seem to start prioritizing flashy lawyer credentials and stuff like that and networking and that sort of thing over the pursuit of the truth I guess is how I would kind of phrase it.

[01:17:07] Why do you think it's important for people to be aware that this happened, you know why speak out about it I guess the way I kind of would say that is or answer that question.

[01:17:18] It's like, I always say like the Cardinal sin I think the one thing maybe everybody can agree on the Cardinal sin in the in this case is the two girls were brutally slain beyond that like in the sleuthing community and this might be kind of controversial too but I also feel like sometimes

[01:17:34] people hoard information and and and not talk about it or they'll use it as leverage or something like that I've seen that happen before too.

[01:17:42] I just feel like the more people talk about it, the more people share you know and you know be clear about theory in fact and sometimes the line gets blurred all that but I've just always been an advocate for you know I I I've said it before I draw the line at crime scene pictures

[01:17:55] and I don't think that that is disgusting you know I would never do that myself but in terms of theories and discussing the case that's the hoarding of it and using information for other reasons or whatever is is is the like secondary sin

[01:18:12] on the lawyer side of it and I never would have thought about this but you know the idea that somebody would who has access to case files or whatever would manipulate that information is also a high sin.

[01:18:25] And I think that I've definitely made a lot of content being very critical of the prosecution that I felt at the time was valid.

[01:18:34] So if I come across information that the defense team is doing something in terms of like manipulating information, why wouldn't I call them out on it as well and I think that people talking about things and speaking out is sort of like the the antidote to that in a way you know I mean like because the more people talk,

[01:18:52] the more people are going to realize like hey like you know something's not adding up. So that's, yeah, it's like the only tool that people have really to kind of bust through that you know.

[01:19:03] And your talking is good and on a personal level, Anya and I have enjoyed having some conversations with you in recent weeks about this case.

[01:19:14] With that said, there have been times in the past we've said some critical things about you. You've said some critical things about us. Why is it important for people to be able to have respectful conversations with each other, even if they disagree about the case?

[01:19:30] Yes, absolutely and likewise with me I thanks for having me on here so that we can talk about this stuff but I absolutely agree with that.

[01:19:38] I think that I always refer to it as and I agree you know I apologize for any you know any crappy things I might have said in the past and that extends to you know people you know you guys you know I've recently apologized to Meerkat as well like you know there's been times where

[01:19:57] you know you get caught up in stuff and it's not an excuse but it's just you know all you can do is kind of try and do better and stuff like that and I am going to make an effort to try to but to get back to

[01:20:08] because when I first came on the scene that you know when I first made my Reddit account I was almost known as like more of a peacemaker but you know the thing is like the corruption thing and stuff.

[01:20:18] I almost felt like when I started to kind of go in the corruption direction it made me more salty like man I wasted my time on this you know and all it was was corruption and now that I'm starting to see like there might be a little bit more to it than that

[01:20:30] and I don't know it's even a valid criticism I'm just kind of getting more of like a center of you know gravity in terms of how I view things but I always refer to people and I think they people are they tend to either for whatever reason

[01:20:48] they are geared towards being prosecution maximalist frame of reference versus defense maximalist frame of reference and I think that it's good to have a counterbalance because as much as people like to think that they're they have the ability to be objective sometimes you know you kind of trick yourself into thinking that and

[01:21:09] if you don't have that if you're not challenging your own questions and things like you know your own thought process how strong is your argument you know what I mean it can't be that strong if you're not going to do that so it's just always good to have people of opposing views in contact

[01:21:25] in contact and you can you can figure out a lot like I in the past couple of months since I've made an effort to be that way I have I feel like I've learned probably even more so than I have in the past you know year just you know it just takes that that that counterbalance

[01:21:42] for folks who might feel like I honestly think when I see a lot of people who are very passionate about this case or even angry about the case.

[01:21:50] I think a lot of that comes from a really good place of like wanting justice and wanting things to be fair and I think it comes from like a real since he since your want for that and I think that's that's how I view you now and that's also how I view a lot of other people who might be caught up in stuff that

[01:22:07] maybe started good and maybe got a bit toxic or whatnot. What would your advice be for someone who might feel like they're caught up in something like that in the true crime space and may feel like I want to do things differently but I don't really know how to start like what would your what are your thoughts on that?

[01:22:23] I think that just as like a standard sort of approach to things you know if you get to a certain point and you feel too confident. I think people should kind of reassess reevaluate and be like yeah just at like challenge your challenge your strongest theories and if you need to reach out to somebody even I mean somebody maybe go through the whole list of content creators that you probably would think are complete opposite of yourself and be like hey maybe I should just

[01:22:53] reach out and just see if they'll talk to me and I don't know. I see a lot of stuff right now on YouTube that's actually pretty cool people that you've just never seen kind of engaging in discussion being a little bit more open to that.

[01:23:07] I think that's great just a more well rounded robust discussion in some cases. There's always going to be peripheral drama and things like that going on you can't control it you can't you know it is what it is but yeah make an effort I think people need to make an effort to be uncomfortable I guess in certain situations I think that would go a far distance in this case.

[01:23:30] And one thing I wanted to ask is just in terms of Angelique Courtney do you believe that they're being used by this defense team and what are your concerns around that?

[01:23:41] I am very angry at both of them for personal reasons with that being said and I don't want to like you know infantilize them and make it seem like they don't have their own ability to make choices because they certainly do.

[01:23:57] But I have I definitely have multiple years in the case of Courtney and then almost two years with Angela even of conversations and things where they are not being horrible humans you know the entire time anyways I mean nobody's perfect but I do think that for the most part like you had said they're well intentioned but the problem is and this is where I do place a lot of blame on somebody like Matt Hoffman who is

[01:24:27] enabling you know and there's certainly a there's Angela I learned I learned a new word a couple days ago I was listening to Martin Scorale and he had said what did he say? Pilemmac. Pilemmacal.

[01:24:50] I never heard that word before but that's that's Angela sort of has like a polemical quality about her and it's there's not a lot behind it it's just she's you know so when you see something like that and you kind of embolden them and you kind of light the fuse there's

[01:25:08] and yeah there's blame to go around but but the way I see what they're what the defense team is doing at least Matt Hoffman is he kind of came into a situation where I think he thought he was going to manipulate some people in the YouTube community and use it to his

[01:25:23] advantage and I'm so sick and tired of hearing this this excuse for stuff like that where it's like well the defense team it's what they do you know like that that's you know they have to raise suspicion of doubt okay well that's different than creating it

[01:25:34] like you don't have to create a fake situation or something like that and then just try to justify it but on top of that again it's it's the destruction of some of these people and what it's doing to them that should be enough to just be like I got to stop doing this because

[01:25:49] I'm not going to do this or try to find some other way there the defense teams need to to defend Alan over that it doesn't mean shit to me like I don't have to adhere to the rules that they some people might look at what I'm doing right now and just be like

[01:26:04] well he shouldn't have he shouldn't have you know jumped in the pool then because he Matt Hoffman if what they're alleging is true he he put his neck on the line by doing this right like he thought you know he's gonna you know achieve whatever he was trying to

[01:26:21] achieve and the YouTube community in the creator content or the creator community we don't have you know we want the truth okay like most people I think sincerely are really there to know what happened the idea that that he is going to hijack that and

[01:26:41] achieve some other kind of outcome is is preposterous to me like he should know better or he or you know well he's gonna find out that that's that's not how it's gonna happen.

[01:26:49] Well I mean I'm going to tell you that it is the defense's job absolutely to vigorously pursue a defensive Alan and that means convincing a jury of his innocence or convincing a jury that the state did not prove its case.

[01:27:04] It does not mean that they have to go try to manipulate people right water to them and frankly some of the stuff we saw in the private messages that we will talk about even from the lawyers just smacks of people who know better.

[01:27:20] Right that's that's what exactly and that's what I'm saying like there's yeah there's there's definitely like this feeling that they're taking you know if if this this is an economy of validation in terms of what some of these content creators want from these lawyers or these

[01:27:39] YouTube lawyers or however you want to say it that that they're getting and they're thinking that they're going to pull a fast one it's like this is a different rule set like we don't like they're putting a lot of risk on the line for how they're choosing to engage this this case I feel because at the end of the day.

[01:27:57] We're going to question things that they might not want to answer it and that's all there is to it you know it's yeah that's how I see it anyways.

[01:28:05] I'm curious before we wrap can you tell us a little bit about your own philosophy about how people should be researching and discussing this case.

[01:28:16] I guess like kind of how I've said you know it's just I feel like every single thing that I've ever done at least from my perspective to the best of my abilities is to kind of enrich the conversation as best as I can.

[01:28:32] I try to like I said in the opening question I try to remove myself from any kind of expectations or anything like that.

[01:28:44] Like if for instance you know like I spent a lot of time on being critical of the prosecution based on some things that you know I had been told and thought at the time. There's no reason why I wouldn't do the same thing for towards the defense team.

[01:29:04] It's just the best obligation that I can make to trying to find the truth you know what I mean it I just I don't I try not to veer from that but yeah like even in simpler terms than that in terms of time right like you kind of allocate how much time you're going to use in your day you know you're going to go to the gym you're going to go shopping you're going to pay bills whatever and then you're like well at this time.

[01:29:29] I'm going to spend a couple hours you know looking into some stuff about Delphi or whatever but that dopamine circuit for that to kind of complete it's probably got like its own flavor and to me.

[01:29:40] It just has to be about getting to the closest approximation of the truth and it's never going to be oh I want to talk to this person and or you know impress this person or whatever you know it's got to be about getting to the best answers as you can and that that's.

[01:29:58] Pretty much that's pretty much how I look at it you know.

[01:30:02] I wanted to ask you to wrap up to kind of a two part question one is what do you hope to see going forward in the Delphi case around the online discourse or anything else and didn't is there just anything we didn't ask you about that you wanted to mention that we forgot about.

[01:30:18] I guess the basic answer to that is answers. That's just that's it like I think everybody wants to know are we going to get them in some form or fashion in a trial or otherwise I hope we do and yeah.

[01:30:35] No I think you guys asked the right questions good questions great questions. Oh one thing that I didn't I guess maybe I didn't make clear so I have a feeling.

[01:30:50] Well why they are doing what they're doing is still kind of a mystery to me you know what I mean like are they doing it out of necessity because Alan is maybe guilty and they don't have any way of is this odinism thing something that they had to or as crazy as it sounds that they're going to be doing it.

[01:31:10] That might actually be preferable to a scenario where maybe Alan really there is reason to believe Alan is innocent and they still chose this silly thing just because they thought it was more effective or with the odinism stuff or it was more beneficial to their career somehow I don't know but that that is one thing.

[01:31:34] I have a question for you guys though. Yeah, hit us. Uh oh.

[01:31:38] This is just something no no yeah so I guess okay let's say they were going to create like a movie version of of Delphi and then for the Delphi murders and you were tasked with creating like a cold open scene that kind of was a key moment in the case or whatever to kind of maybe show like a really key like sort of game changer

[01:32:07] like a key moment like where maybe not a whole lot of words are said or something like that like what how would you what would you choose I mean I know that's kind of a complicated question but

[01:32:16] Good question though and I'm I feel like I'm going to come up with something really uncreative and boring but no it's a good question. I've often thought about it feels sort of some ways I should have probably like asked you guys.

[01:32:28] No we're going to pull something out of here. Let me think.

[01:32:32] I mean to me this is boring is really boring but when I when I think of like where you have to begin with a story I feel like I don't know if you could somehow shoot it in a way that you could capture how terrifying that bridge is that's something that's not captured when you're looking at the pictures of just like the planks going forward it looks pretty solid it looks pretty normal.

[01:32:57] I think when you go under it you see this like thin towering almost tottering just it's a scary bridge and I to me I don't know I think I would I would want to go to that image.

[01:33:16] That's great that's a great answer I feel like that is yeah because it it yeah no. Have you been there to the bridge.

[01:33:23] Oh yeah I went there before they redid it and I so yeah I walked it my wife walked right up to the edge of it and she's because we're joking the entire time we were going up there and she's like you're not going to cross it I said yeah I will and she walked and she completely stopped and I just always give her crap about it because

[01:33:43] but people who don't want to cross it and I think it's it's it's such a key insight because yeah the fact that what happened happened it tells you a lot and I feel like you're you're right yeah and it and it that's a great that is a great opening.

[01:33:57] I remember the first time we went there we went underneath we've never crossed it I have no intention to because I'm terrified of heights but I remember like what you're saying like I got really like emotional and sad because I just thought of how trap they must have felt up there.

[01:34:13] Absolutely. And it's like you know you kind of it just I don't know just that kills me that really was upset. It's really yeah. Are you having an idea of one yourself.

[01:34:24] I would probably just try to center the two girls maybe have them in the car with Kelsey going there smiling and happy listening to music and it's just that's a great one to be mad and between what happens next.

[01:34:42] Yeah I think often in our discussions about the case they get lost. That's true. No I understand that yeah that's true too. How about you. Oh man I've gone over this like a bunch of times.

[01:34:55] I don't know I guess it depends on like what happens I've thought of a weird thing where like if let's say Alan you know ends up being the guy like if there's some weird Christmas where he receives like a present he opens it up and there's like a blue jacket in the in the present you know or something like that or even just

[01:35:15] something where they're all the investigators and people on the scene are kind of just analyzing and just kind of like dismayed at what they're seeing and then all of a sudden something happens and they kind of all like have this like moment of realization about something.

[01:35:31] I don't know just just an interesting question there's so many great possibilities. Yeah yeah I know there is yeah that's why I always I'm interested to see like what what what people's thoughts are on that but.

[01:35:41] It kind of goes at the heart of how do you convey this really complicated story in a way that makes sense because it can be hard like sometimes I feel like I worry that our episodes about Delphi we're kind of just jumping in OK here's Richard Alan here's this person and like

[01:35:57] I mean are people even following along half the time because like it's like there's so many moving parts has been different suspects that come up over the years there's been different theories has been different just things I mean there's so many moving pieces and like how

[01:36:11] absolutely no and I think I mean that's why we appreciate what what you're saying and sort of just how candid you are and how much you know I feel like you put in a lot of awfulness to a lot of your answers here and just kind of like coming at it from like a looking at the whole thing and analyzing it

[01:36:29] not just the case but also true crime in general and we love to try to and so we really appreciate you kind of coming on and doing that with us too.

[01:36:36] No absolutely and I like I said to you guys before like the thing that I like to do most is just talk about the case and see what people think and that's all that I require I require in terms of people who you know I want to talk to

[01:36:51] and stuff like that like anybody who has an opinion I love to hear it I just it's just always been a fascinating case to me everything like the the case itself the online culture around it it's there's so many different yeah like you said it's it's complicated and it's it's messy but it's

[01:37:08] it's always just been very interesting to me. Absolutely.

[01:37:13] Well listen thank you so much for joining us again Paul I will say when we talk to you about the case it does feel like a kind of a throwback to the times when we were kind of just like starting to look into it talking about these and there's something very nice about that

[01:37:25] because it's refreshing because exactly I feel the same way yeah it's mutual because right yeah. The only thing I'm going to say too is look out for the domain that is going to be the new revamped channel.

[01:37:41] Some people are going to be too happy but some people are going to be, you know, they're gonna have to accept it anyway so but thanks for having me on guys I appreciate it. Appreciate you Paul. Thank you so much.

[01:37:53] Alright. We want to sincerely thank Paul for taking the time to speak with us today and we look forward to seeing whatever it was he was hinting there at the end about the future of his channel.

[01:38:04] Yes we're very very curious and interested and we'll certainly be checking that out. Thank you all for listening as well. Thanks so much for listening to the Murder Sheet. If you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover please email us at murdersheet at gmail.com

[01:38:22] If you have actionable information about an unsolved crime please report it to the appropriate authorities. If you're interested in joining our Patreon that's available at www.patreon.com. If you want to tip us a bit of money for records requests you can do so at www.imiacoffee.com.

[01:38:50] Special thanks to Kevin Tyler Greenlee who composed the music for the Murder Sheet and who you can find on the web at kevintg.com If you're looking to talk with other listeners about a case we've covered you can join the Murder Sheet discussion group on Facebook.

[01:39:12] We mostly focus our time on research and reporting so we're not on social media much. We do try to check our email account but we ask for patience as we often receive a lot of messages. Thanks again for listening.