The Delphi Murders: The Sentencing of Richard Allen

[00:00:00] [SPEAKER_01]: Content Warning. This episode includes discussion of the murder of two children.

[00:00:06] [SPEAKER_00]: So today is Friday, December 20th, 2024. It's been a long time coming. Today was the sentencing

[00:00:14] [SPEAKER_00]: of Richard Allen in the Delphi Murders case. So we had our trial, we had a verdict, a guilty

[00:00:21] [SPEAKER_00]: verdict, and today was the day that Judge Francis Gull was going to sit down and sentence convicted

[00:00:29] [SPEAKER_00]: murderer Richard Allen.

[00:00:30] [SPEAKER_01]: Richard Allen We're going to tell you what happened. We're also

[00:00:34] [SPEAKER_01]: going to talk some about the press conference that followed. I don't think we need to go

[00:00:38] [SPEAKER_01]: into quite as much detail about that because my understanding, I haven't checked, but my

[00:00:43] [SPEAKER_01]: understanding is it was streamed online. There was only a lot of cameras there. So I imagine

[00:00:47] [SPEAKER_01]: that's widely available. We're still talking about it, just not in experts.

[00:00:51] [SPEAKER_00]: Richard Allen We'll talk about our impressions, but like we don't

[00:00:53] [SPEAKER_00]: need to go into like, you know, minutia and quotes to the same extent as with the court where

[00:00:58] [SPEAKER_00]: things are not broadcast.

[00:01:00] [SPEAKER_00]: Richard Allen Right.

[00:01:00] [SPEAKER_00]: Richard Allen But yeah, well, and then we'll announce some kind

[00:01:02] [SPEAKER_00]: of exciting news coming up.

[00:01:04] [SPEAKER_01]: Richard Allen Exciting news.

[00:01:05] [SPEAKER_01]: Richard Allen So let's get to it.

[00:01:07] [SPEAKER_00]: Richard Allen Let's do it. My name is Anya Kane. I'm a journalist.

[00:01:11] [SPEAKER_01]: Richard Allen And I'm Kevin Greenlee. I'm an attorney.

[00:01:13] [SPEAKER_00]: Richard Allen And this is The Murder Sheet.

[00:01:15] [SPEAKER_01]: Richard Allen We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews, and deep dives

[00:01:20] [SPEAKER_01]: into murder cases. We're the murder sheet.

[00:01:24] [SPEAKER_00]: Richard Allen And this is The Delphi Murders, the sentencing of Richard Allen.

[00:02:15] [SPEAKER_01]: Richard Allen Should we talk by discussing a little bit what a sentencing hearing format

[00:02:20] [SPEAKER_01]: is like?

[00:02:21] [SPEAKER_00]: Richard Allen Sure, we can talk by discussing that.

[00:02:24] [SPEAKER_01]: Richard Allen So basically, both sides get an opportunity if they choose to make their case

[00:02:34] [SPEAKER_01]: Richard Allen So in this case, the prosecution team who have won and convicted the defendant

[00:02:46] [SPEAKER_01]: to make a case for the sentence to be stronger. And in this particular case, the defense teams

[00:02:53] [SPEAKER_01]: had previously indicated that they were not interested in really participating in the process.

[00:03:00] [SPEAKER_01]: Richard Allen And so they did very, very, very, very little in this hearing.

[00:03:07] [SPEAKER_00]: Richard Allen And like the whole thing was what, an hour and a half? Something like that?

[00:03:12] [SPEAKER_01]: Richard Allen Something like that. If even that.

[00:03:13] [SPEAKER_00]: Richard Allen If even that. Let me just give you a sense. We had some wonderful line sitters

[00:03:18] [SPEAKER_00]: help us out today. I'd like to shout them out. In the evening, Kay helped us. Thank you so much, Kay.

[00:03:25] [SPEAKER_00]: I think she's like four time, five time line sitter at this point. She's the veteran line

[00:03:31] [SPEAKER_00]: sitter and we really appreciate her. And then also the wonderful Susan and Stacy, just amazing

[00:03:37] [SPEAKER_00]: people who helped us out. Susan and Stacy, we asked to come in the afternoon to help us

[00:03:41] [SPEAKER_00]: out if there was a lunch break.

[00:03:43] [SPEAKER_00]: Richard Allen There was no lunch break?

[00:03:44] [SPEAKER_00]: Richard Allen There was no lunch break. So apologies to them, but thank you so much for

[00:03:49] [SPEAKER_00]: helping us anyway. It really gave us a lot of peace of mind and we really, really greatly

[00:03:54] [SPEAKER_00]: appreciated it.

[00:03:55] [SPEAKER_01]: Richard Allen I think Kay may have waited in long longer than we have.

[00:03:57] [SPEAKER_00]: Richard Allen Yeah, I think Kay's been in there. And then just, you know, thank you to

[00:04:02] [SPEAKER_00]: Kay, Susan, Stacy, and everyone throughout this process. Everyone who sat for us, everyone who

[00:04:10] [SPEAKER_00]: volunteered and maybe it didn't work out. Just thank you so much. Like, it makes my heart, I

[00:04:16] [SPEAKER_00]: don't know. I just feel humbled and honored that people wanted to help us. And thank you all so

[00:04:19] [SPEAKER_01]: much.

[00:04:20] [SPEAKER_00]: Susan and Stacy Thank you. I mean this from the bottom of my heart, but so that that's just

[00:04:23] [SPEAKER_00]: giving you a sense of how short this was.

[00:04:25] [SPEAKER_01]: Richard Allen Because the defense didn't participate. That doesn't mean that Richard Allen didn't

[00:04:30] [SPEAKER_01]: get chances to speak. And in fact, correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe today may have been

[00:04:37] [SPEAKER_01]: the first time throughout this case, including all the pretrial hearings, it may have been the

[00:04:42] [SPEAKER_01]: very first time he spoke in court.

[00:04:44] [SPEAKER_00]: Kaye Haynes I have vague recollections of him speaking in

[00:04:48] [SPEAKER_00]: court before. I don't quite recall what those were, but I don't believe this was necessarily

[00:04:52] [SPEAKER_00]: the first time he's ever talked.

[00:04:54] [SPEAKER_00]: Richard Allen Okay.

[00:04:55] [SPEAKER_00]: Richard Allen But it was certainly perhaps the, I mean, you could be right. I could be

[00:04:59] [SPEAKER_00]: just hallucinating that. But also, it's definitely the most we've heard from him.

[00:05:05] [SPEAKER_01]: Richard Allen And it really wasn't a lot. He gave his name, Richard Allen. He was also asked

[00:05:11] [SPEAKER_01]: by Judge Gull if he was satisfied with his attorneys. And he said, yes, he was. And he also indicated

[00:05:19] [SPEAKER_01]: that he had seen his pre-sentence investigative report. And he was asked if he had noticed any errors

[00:05:27] [SPEAKER_01]: in it. And first he and then his attorneys did notice a couple of relatively minor errors. For instance,

[00:05:36] [SPEAKER_01]: the report apparently indicated that he had been arrested, I think, two days after he actually had

[00:05:43] [SPEAKER_01]: been arrested. And you think, well, that's just a minor thing. But if you're a defendant facing a

[00:05:49] [SPEAKER_01]: prison term, you start getting credit for your prison term as soon as you're arrested. So he wants it to be

[00:05:55] [SPEAKER_01]: known when he was arrested. I was in custody on this day. I should get credit for being in custody on this day.

[00:06:02] [SPEAKER_00]: Just to give some scene setting on Richard Allen himself, because I know people often ask us, how did he look?

[00:06:08] [SPEAKER_00]: How was he dressed? What was the demeanor? So today he we saw him in his little pastel

[00:06:14] [SPEAKER_00]: ensembles during the trial. That's what he was wearing, sort of button down shirts and slacks and things like that.

[00:06:20] [SPEAKER_00]: But now, of course, he's incarcerated. There's no jury. So he came in in orange sort of jail slash prison bottoms and kind of a gray smockish shirt.

[00:06:33] [SPEAKER_01]: He wore an orange smockish shirt, but the gray thing was over it.

[00:06:38] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. I mean, like it was like an orange jumpsuit and then some sort of gray situation and then kind of a leather.

[00:06:43] [SPEAKER_01]: I couldn't tell if it was like a sweater or a sweatshirt or just.

[00:06:47] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm not familiar. And maybe maybe someone who works in corrections can kind of give us some insight into this.

[00:06:51] [SPEAKER_00]: But he also had a sort of leather band across his waist that he seemed to be handcuffed his wrists were cuffed to.

[00:06:59] [SPEAKER_00]: So I don't know if it was maybe some sort of safety garment or what was going on there or just something to keep him warm.

[00:07:04] [SPEAKER_00]: It was very cold out today and it was snowing throughout parts of the morning.

[00:07:08] [SPEAKER_00]: So that's something to note in terms of his demeanor.

[00:07:11] [SPEAKER_00]: He also had his his reading glasses on his head as usual.

[00:07:15] [SPEAKER_00]: So those came back in. I almost the expression that I almost kind of wrote down that I wrote down in my notes as he came in was almost sheepish.

[00:07:25] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know. I mean, that may not have been how he was feeling.

[00:07:28] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm someone on the outside looking at somebody else.

[00:07:30] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm not always gonna be able to tell their exact emotions.

[00:07:33] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm just that was the expression that came to mind for me.

[00:07:36] [SPEAKER_00]: And he was looking around, looking around the audience.

[00:07:41] [SPEAKER_00]: And of course, there were some people notably not there today.

[00:07:43] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes. No member of his family was present today.

[00:07:49] [SPEAKER_01]: And our understanding is that this was at the request of the defense team.

[00:07:56] [SPEAKER_01]: It wasn't like they suddenly decided we're not going to support Richard Allen anymore, that they were told not to come there.

[00:08:02] [SPEAKER_01]: Maybe Richard Allen told them not to come there.

[00:08:04] [SPEAKER_01]: But it was some form of an instruction or a request.

[00:08:08] [SPEAKER_01]: Is that is that correct to say?

[00:08:09] [SPEAKER_00]: That's my understanding.

[00:08:10] [SPEAKER_00]: And this is a situation we need to emphasize that, you know, like we should not read into that.

[00:08:15] [SPEAKER_00]: We should not say, oh, they all as you said, they changed their mind.

[00:08:18] [SPEAKER_00]: No, this was they didn't want to see this.

[00:08:22] [SPEAKER_00]: A sentencing hearing, as you can imagine, includes victim impact statements.

[00:08:25] [SPEAKER_00]: And that is basically people talking about how wronged they were by the convicted murderer in this situation.

[00:08:31] [SPEAKER_00]: And that if if, you know, that that wouldn't be pleasant hearing for for Richard Allen supporter.

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[00:10:13] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's basically victims, relatives or people close to the victims standing up in front of the court and saying in detail how hurt and devastated they have been by the heinous acts of the convicted killer.

[00:10:32] [SPEAKER_01]: And so if you are a family member of the convicted killer, you can imagine that might not be something you'd feel comfortable witnessing and being a part of.

[00:10:43] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. And this isn't the first time we've seen this behavior from Allen's family members.

[00:10:47] [SPEAKER_00]: We know that his wife, Kathy Allen, and his mother, Janice Allen, during the three day hearing over the summer when Major Pat Cicero testified for the state about the really gruesome and horrible crime scene and how these girls, how Liberty German and Abigail Williams died, how they were murdered by Richard Allen.

[00:11:06] [SPEAKER_00]: We know that they also basically fled the courtroom at that time as well.

[00:11:10] [SPEAKER_00]: So there's certain moments where maybe the discomfort becomes something where they do not want to be there.

[00:11:16] [SPEAKER_00]: They remove themselves.

[00:11:17] [SPEAKER_00]: So I just don't think people I hope people are not like reading into their lack of presence here.

[00:11:23] [SPEAKER_01]: Also on the subject, probably not worth mentioning them by name.

[00:11:29] [SPEAKER_01]: You probably all know who they are.

[00:11:30] [SPEAKER_01]: There's a number of rabidly pro defense YouTubers who covered the trial.

[00:11:40] [SPEAKER_01]: They made the decision not to be here today.

[00:11:42] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:11:43] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, I mean, I guess if you spend like a month misleading your audience and then get it completely wrong.

[00:11:48] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, you know, you can come back and put more egg on your face or you can.

[00:11:52] [SPEAKER_00]: I imagine it.

[00:11:53] [SPEAKER_01]: I imagine it would be difficult for them to sit here and be confronted with the evidence of what Richard Allen did.

[00:12:02] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:12:03] [SPEAKER_00]: And also the human impact.

[00:12:04] [SPEAKER_00]: It's not just a fun little game where we're all like picking different sides of a tennis match.

[00:12:08] [SPEAKER_00]: You know, that two girls were murdered.

[00:12:13] [SPEAKER_00]: It's not a game.

[00:12:14] [SPEAKER_00]: People's lives were changed forever for the worse.

[00:12:17] [SPEAKER_00]: And it had a real human impact.

[00:12:20] [SPEAKER_00]: I think some people just they don't really either care about that or, you know, they don't want to have to care about it.

[00:12:26] [SPEAKER_00]: So they just don't want to hear about it.

[00:12:28] [SPEAKER_00]: So they just avoid that stuff because maybe if they heard, you know, Abby's grandmother or Libby's grandmother on the stand, you know, their voice shaking, talking about how awful this has been for them.

[00:12:40] [SPEAKER_00]: Maybe they'd have to, you know, maybe they'd have to look in the mirror and reflect about what they're doing and how they're basically, you know, I don't care if someone wants to come in and say, well, I tend to, you know, be more on the defense side.

[00:12:50] [SPEAKER_00]: That's fine.

[00:12:50] [SPEAKER_00]: But like we're talking about people who are just out of reality, like just lying, just putting out misinformation.

[00:12:58] [SPEAKER_00]: And maybe if you see the human impact and the people you're essentially sicking your online mob on and watch them cry on the stand, maybe you have to look in the mirror a little bit differently.

[00:13:09] [SPEAKER_00]: Maybe you need to look at your life choices a little bit differently.

[00:13:12] [SPEAKER_00]: Just sorry.

[00:13:13] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm getting already.

[00:13:14] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm already getting mad.

[00:13:15] [SPEAKER_01]: Anyways, so the prosecution, Nick McClelland mentioned at the beginning of this that he would be offering one witness who would be Lieutenant Jerry Holman of the Indiana State Police.

[00:13:28] [SPEAKER_01]: And then he would have six relatives come up to give unsworn victim impact statements.

[00:13:34] [SPEAKER_01]: Why don't you start by talking about the first and only witness, Lieutenant Jerry Holman.

[00:13:39] [SPEAKER_00]: And this is after Brad Rosey got up and said, basically, we're resting on our previous motion.

[00:13:43] [SPEAKER_01]: Right. Which we covered in an earlier episode.

[00:13:46] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, defense is doing nothing.

[00:13:47] [SPEAKER_00]: This is what the prosecution is doing.

[00:13:48] [SPEAKER_00]: So Lieutenant Holman comes up to the stand and is sworn in.

[00:13:52] [SPEAKER_00]: He was the only sworn statement.

[00:13:54] [SPEAKER_00]: He's more of a witness than a victim impact statement.

[00:13:57] [SPEAKER_00]: So there's a difference.

[00:13:58] [SPEAKER_00]: Victim impact statements don't need to be sworn.

[00:14:02] [SPEAKER_00]: Holman gets up there and McClelland essentially kind of guides him through, you know, a number of questions to kind of get into the impact.

[00:14:11] [SPEAKER_00]: And I think what Holman was there for was he's there to represent law enforcement in a way.

[00:14:18] [SPEAKER_00]: He was denoted as the lead investigator for the case.

[00:14:23] [SPEAKER_00]: In reality, there was more of a kind of a team effort with unified command kind of working together.

[00:14:28] [SPEAKER_00]: But he's the kind of person who is representing that within the trial.

[00:14:31] [SPEAKER_00]: And he was there to kind of talk about what he observed.

[00:14:36] [SPEAKER_01]: About how he was heavily involved in the investigation.

[00:14:38] [SPEAKER_01]: He talked about how the team he worked with poured their hearts and souls into the investigation.

[00:14:47] [SPEAKER_01]: McClelland asked him at one point, have you closely examined the crime scene photos?

[00:14:52] [SPEAKER_01]: And Holman said, unfortunately, yes.

[00:14:55] [SPEAKER_01]: He talked about how this was a very brutal murder.

[00:14:59] [SPEAKER_01]: He said Richard Allen lay in wait for these girls.

[00:15:02] [SPEAKER_01]: He stalked them.

[00:15:04] [SPEAKER_01]: He humiliated them.

[00:15:06] [SPEAKER_01]: He treated them like animals.

[00:15:07] [SPEAKER_01]: He made them strip.

[00:15:09] [SPEAKER_01]: And that he actually killed one of the girls in front of the others.

[00:15:13] [SPEAKER_01]: And he spoke with some emotion about just imagine the fear and anxiety that that left those girls in as all this was happening.

[00:15:23] [SPEAKER_00]: We don't know which one saw their best friend die, but one of them saw their best friend brutally murdered.

[00:15:28] [SPEAKER_00]: Their throat slit.

[00:15:29] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, it's it's unfathomable.

[00:15:33] [SPEAKER_00]: Holman mentioned that he has worked other, I guess, child murders before.

[00:15:39] [SPEAKER_00]: He's worked other homicides, but this one stands out in his mind as particularly heinous and brutal, where you have a stranger essentially abducting these two girls and doing what he did to them and humiliating them.

[00:15:51] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, these are, you know, teenage, young teenage, preteen girls, like forcing them to strip.

[00:15:57] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, it's just.

[00:15:58] [SPEAKER_01]: He also talked about the impact on the community because of this heinous act.

[00:16:03] [SPEAKER_01]: And then he went a bit further and started talking about another effect of this that he attributes to Richard Allen.

[00:16:15] [SPEAKER_01]: He says that Richard Allen allowed his attorneys to use unethical strategies of falsely accusing the prosecutor and police of being corrupt or withholding evidence.

[00:16:27] [SPEAKER_01]: And I believe he at one point looked right at prosecutor McLean is that you and your family have been harassed.

[00:16:34] [SPEAKER_01]: And I believe most of the people who have been involved in this case on that side of the fence have been harassed or have received threats or have had their family threatened.

[00:16:48] [SPEAKER_01]: And and Holman largely attributes this to these the strategy the defense team chose to use where they essentially publicly accused law enforcement of being part of some bizarre conspiracy and involved being corrupt.

[00:17:05] [SPEAKER_01]: And all that stuff was not true.

[00:17:08] [SPEAKER_00]: So I wonder what do you think as an attorney?

[00:17:11] [SPEAKER_00]: Do you think that is unethical?

[00:17:12] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I have my own thoughts on this that I want to share, but I'm curious when when you have a defense strategy that seems to.

[00:17:20] [SPEAKER_00]: Revolve around that.

[00:17:21] [SPEAKER_00]: What are your thoughts?

[00:17:25] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't think it is ethical to be.

[00:17:31] [SPEAKER_01]: Falsely accusing good people of committing corrupt and criminal acts with no evidence because they had all these charges that they laid.

[00:17:43] [SPEAKER_01]: Pardon me.

[00:17:45] [SPEAKER_01]: Against the prosecution.

[00:17:46] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:17:47] [SPEAKER_01]: And they were lies.

[00:17:48] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, let's be blunt.

[00:17:49] [SPEAKER_01]: They were lies.

[00:17:50] [SPEAKER_01]: And there was really no defense for that.

[00:17:53] [SPEAKER_01]: And it really coarsened the rhetoric around this case.

[00:17:57] [SPEAKER_01]: And the reason why so many people have gotten such a distorted image.

[00:18:03] [SPEAKER_01]: Of this case is because of that.

[00:18:05] [SPEAKER_01]: There are people today who believe that there was corruption involved or conspiracy.

[00:18:12] [SPEAKER_01]: And it's it's.

[00:18:15] [SPEAKER_01]: It makes no sense.

[00:18:16] [SPEAKER_00]: It really doesn't.

[00:18:17] [SPEAKER_00]: And this is a situation I'm going to tell you my own perspective.

[00:18:21] [SPEAKER_00]: Um, I want defense attorneys to be aggressive, to be robust and to be harsh on law enforcement.

[00:18:27] [SPEAKER_00]: That's their job.

[00:18:28] [SPEAKER_00]: OK, it's their job.

[00:18:29] [SPEAKER_00]: It's not their job to say, oh, wow, great job.

[00:18:31] [SPEAKER_00]: You know, gold sticker.

[00:18:33] [SPEAKER_00]: It's their job to say you didn't do this right.

[00:18:35] [SPEAKER_00]: You didn't do that right.

[00:18:36] [SPEAKER_00]: Here's where the problem was.

[00:18:38] [SPEAKER_00]: So I I I respect that.

[00:18:40] [SPEAKER_00]: That's an important part of the system.

[00:18:42] [SPEAKER_00]: That being said, in this case, it went completely like so far afield of any actual reasonable criticisms of how the investigation was conducted or issues that came up and went just into the realm of like weird fever dream.

[00:19:29] [SPEAKER_00]: Wow.

[00:19:32] [SPEAKER_00]: But asking us to buy into the idea like that there's this kind of holy kind of alluded to shadowy conspiracy where all of these professionals are working together and like risking their own like livelihoods, freedom, honor, everything to I don't know, like railroad this random CVS employee and protect a gang of Odin.

[00:19:55] [SPEAKER_00]: And it's like what? Like, it's just stupid.

[00:19:58] [SPEAKER_00]: And so, yeah, I felt like they they were unethical because I think they had to know that this is incredibly stupid and they took it so far and they courted consistently the lowest common denominator on social media, the cranks.

[00:20:15] [SPEAKER_00]: And, you know, one thing about the cranks is, you know, they're not exactly sitting around having, you know, little dignified tea parties and discussing things in calm voices, you know, when they're told by their defense daddies, you know, to attack someone essentially directly or indirectly.

[00:20:32] [SPEAKER_00]: And I think both were happening here.

[00:20:34] [SPEAKER_00]: They're going to do that.

[00:20:35] [SPEAKER_00]: So I think this did result in harassment and, you know, libeling of of people who didn't deserve it.

[00:20:43] [SPEAKER_01]: And it's fair to say that I think virtually every member of law enforcement who has been publicly identified with this case has received some sort of Internet harassment.

[00:20:55] [SPEAKER_01]: And to give you an idea of how bad some of this stuff has gotten, I can tell you for a fact that an investigator on the criminal defense team works closely and has a close relationship that we documented in our due process gang episodes with someone who has falsely accused Holman of trying to murder her.

[00:21:20] [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, yeah. Matt Hoffman. Right. And his buddy, Angela Siedlowski.

[00:21:24] [SPEAKER_00]: That's you know, that's good. That's the kind of caliber of person that this defense team tried to deputize.

[00:21:29] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes. And the idea that Lieutenant Holman tried to murder a woman is ludicrous.

[00:21:38] [SPEAKER_01]: And if it wasn't such a serious charge, it would be funny.

[00:21:41] [SPEAKER_01]: And the fact that they work with people who make such charges and they take these people seriously, it's all I mean, like it's let's just call what it is.

[00:21:52] [SPEAKER_00]: It's nuts. You know, like there's no there's no filter for this defense team.

[00:21:57] [SPEAKER_00]: There's no like let's get the quality information and keep out the bad information.

[00:22:01] [SPEAKER_00]: It's just like if you have something where you're basically saying prosecution bad defense good, they will work with you extensively and buy everything you're selling.

[00:22:12] [SPEAKER_00]: And it's it's a point where it's like, is it naivete or is it just some sort of lack of ethics and lack of care for the truth?

[00:22:18] [SPEAKER_00]: And at a certain point, I have to say, like, these are all educated people.

[00:22:21] [SPEAKER_00]: So it kind of feels like the latter because I don't imagine how any trained professional could be that naive.

[00:22:30] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it's embarrassing.

[00:22:31] [SPEAKER_00]: So they're basically saying these people are they're not just the our opponents are not just wrong.

[00:22:37] [SPEAKER_00]: They're evil. Anything that happens to them is fine.

[00:22:40] [SPEAKER_00]: And that's been the that's been the tenor of this defense.

[00:22:43] [SPEAKER_00]: And I think that is wrong. I don't think it needed to be that way.

[00:22:46] [SPEAKER_01]: And then Holman moved back his focus again to put a squirtly upon Richard Allen.

[00:22:53] [SPEAKER_01]: He talked about how Richard Allen has no remorse.

[00:22:58] [SPEAKER_01]: How at times he's indicated he wants to apologize to the family members, but he's never taken any steps to actually do so.

[00:23:05] [SPEAKER_01]: He also also spoke about how Richard Allen is using religion in order to manipulate his wife, Kathy, and his mother to get what he wants.

[00:23:17] [SPEAKER_01]: He indicated that he believes that Richard Allen is a danger and he poses a threat to the community.

[00:23:22] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it's interesting for all the remorse and one might say whining that Allen has done over time about how bad he feels for the families of the victims.

[00:23:34] [SPEAKER_00]: He's not once apologized to any of them.

[00:23:38] [SPEAKER_00]: So I think remorse seems to be something where that's a journey that needs to be completed.

[00:23:44] [SPEAKER_00]: You know, anything, anything less than a direct apology is is is is really not something that I would even characterize as remorse because most of it seemed to be deployed in conversations with Allen's family, which seemed to be around.

[00:23:59] [SPEAKER_00]: Like, I want to visit with you and I miss you and I want you to love me anyway.

[00:24:03] [SPEAKER_00]: It didn't really seem like it had much to do with the victims families at the end of the day.

[00:24:08] [SPEAKER_00]: So I think that was a pretty apt observation by Lieutenant Holman.

[00:24:12] [SPEAKER_01]: Uh, is there anything else you want to say about Lieutenant Holman's testimony?

[00:24:17] [SPEAKER_01]: There was no cross-examination.

[00:24:19] [SPEAKER_00]: There was no cross-examination.

[00:24:20] [SPEAKER_00]: Not too, uh, no, not too surprising.

[00:24:23] [SPEAKER_00]: I just think I think he was a powerful speaker here.

[00:24:26] [SPEAKER_00]: I think he kind of was able to concept, you know, kind of put together the law enforcement perspective on this.

[00:24:31] [SPEAKER_00]: And it felt like one kind of he kind of kicked off the theme of today, which is like.

[00:24:37] [SPEAKER_00]: The the gag order is lifted.

[00:24:39] [SPEAKER_00]: Like, we've heard indirectly and directly through leaks, through social media deputies, through, you know, filings.

[00:24:52] [SPEAKER_00]: We've heard the defense again and again and again.

[00:24:55] [SPEAKER_00]: And one thing that's been, you know, pretty obvious to us as people reporting on this is that the prosecution side respected the gag order and was not interested in leaking.

[00:25:06] [SPEAKER_00]: So I feel like today was the kind of the floodgates opened of like, yes, we've been listening to all of this for like over over a year or however long we've been doing this.

[00:25:19] [SPEAKER_00]: And we're going to say something back.

[00:25:22] [SPEAKER_00]: And very interesting to hear that from both law enforcement and the families.

[00:25:28] [SPEAKER_01]: And then it was time for the families to get their opportunity to speak.

[00:25:33] [SPEAKER_01]: The first family member to speak was Carrie Timmons, who, as you may or may not know, is the mother of victim Liberty German.

[00:25:43] [SPEAKER_00]: Yes.

[00:25:46] [SPEAKER_00]: Carrie's statement was incredibly moving and.

[00:25:51] [SPEAKER_00]: Really just raw.

[00:25:54] [SPEAKER_00]: It got into the pain she has felt.

[00:25:58] [SPEAKER_00]: She talked about, quote, the path of destruction left in the wake of the decisions of Richard Allen that she's caught up in.

[00:26:06] [SPEAKER_01]: And she also expressed the thought that she doesn't even know how to begin to process the fact that a man who was a husband and a father is capable of the violence that was done to those girls.

[00:26:22] [SPEAKER_00]: She recalled Libby was a girl wise bond wise beyond her 14 years.

[00:26:29] [SPEAKER_00]: She was a girl that Carrie could go to for advice and talk about, you know, Libby was living with her grandparents.

[00:26:37] [SPEAKER_00]: They were her legal guardians, but she and her mother still had a close relationship.

[00:26:41] [SPEAKER_00]: They talked frequently.

[00:26:42] [SPEAKER_00]: And that's what Carrie described.

[00:26:45] [SPEAKER_00]: And Carrie said that, quote, I was totally blind to the fact such evil exists.

[00:26:52] [SPEAKER_00]: Um, quote, uh, and, and then I, and then she also said, you know, in terms of finding out, like when it was, she said that when.

[00:26:59] [SPEAKER_00]: The, the evil figure was bridge guy, it was almost easier for her to deal with because it was a question mark.

[00:27:05] [SPEAKER_00]: But quote, I don't know what is worse knowing or not knowing and quote, because to find out that it was not some.

[00:27:12] [SPEAKER_00]: Obviously evil person with a criminal history or whatnot.

[00:27:15] [SPEAKER_00]: It was just your CVS employee.

[00:27:18] [SPEAKER_01]: Just a regular guy.

[00:27:20] [SPEAKER_00]: Shift manager at the CVS.

[00:27:21] [SPEAKER_00]: Regular guy.

[00:27:23] [SPEAKER_00]: Married.

[00:27:23] [SPEAKER_00]: Has a child.

[00:27:25] [SPEAKER_00]: Has a dog.

[00:27:26] [SPEAKER_00]: Doesn't have a record of doing this.

[00:27:28] [SPEAKER_00]: She talked about how, um, Libby would be 22.

[00:27:32] [SPEAKER_00]: Um, I guess she and, uh, Libby had a birthday around the same time.

[00:27:37] [SPEAKER_00]: Um, and, um, you know, she said she stopped celebrating her birthday, uh, that, that year.

[00:27:45] [SPEAKER_00]: Um, birthdays are difficult for her family, um, as a result of this.

[00:27:52] [SPEAKER_00]: Um, and, uh, she's, she's missed out on things where, um, Libby has not gotten to, um, have a.

[00:28:02] [SPEAKER_01]: Libby will never get a driver's license or go to college or fall in love or get married.

[00:28:09] [SPEAKER_01]: Have babies.

[00:28:10] [SPEAKER_01]: Or have grandkids for, uh, for Carrie.

[00:28:12] [SPEAKER_01]: She, she mentioned that she's struggled with guilt and anxiety.

[00:28:18] [SPEAKER_01]: And she says until she and Libby meet again, Libby will always be her sunshine.

[00:28:23] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:28:24] [SPEAKER_00]: And she talked about how it's hard for her to see kids who were Libby's age grow up and move on because Libby never can.

[00:28:36] [SPEAKER_00]: Right.

[00:28:38] [SPEAKER_00]: The pains from all of these people who spoke and, um, these family members who spoke and shared their victim impact statements was really palpable.

[00:28:51] [SPEAKER_01]: And, um, it, it, it was devastating and very difficult to hear.

[00:29:00] [SPEAKER_01]: And one thing is almost all of them said at one point, I don't know how about eloquent.

[00:29:07] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know the right words.

[00:29:08] [SPEAKER_01]: They all knew the right words.

[00:29:09] [SPEAKER_01]: They all, uh, expressed their grief and their heartache in such a way that everyone in that court was a possible exception of Richard Allen.

[00:29:23] [SPEAKER_01]: And, um, it was a good one.

[00:29:25] [SPEAKER_01]: And we were all left understanding how this is an event that happened close to eight years ago.

[00:29:32] [SPEAKER_01]: But for this family, it's going to be, uh, a wound that never heals.

[00:29:37] [SPEAKER_00]: I can't fathom what it's, what they're feeling, but I feel so bad for all of them.

[00:29:44] [SPEAKER_00]: And I just feel so bad that this world was robbed of these two kids.

[00:29:48] [SPEAKER_00]: It shouldn't have happened.

[00:29:49] [SPEAKER_00]: They shouldn't have died like this in fear from just some selfish creep.

[00:29:57] [SPEAKER_00]: But let's move on to the next one.

[00:29:59] [SPEAKER_01]: The next person to offer a statement was, uh, Josh Lank.

[00:30:04] [SPEAKER_01]: This is one of Libby's cousins about her age.

[00:30:08] [SPEAKER_01]: You may, uh, if you've been following this case for a while, you might remember he is, uh, a race car driver.

[00:30:15] [SPEAKER_01]: And prior to the arrest of Richard Allen, there were times when he'd put like a poster of, uh, a wanted poster on the car that he used to race.

[00:30:24] [SPEAKER_01]: So to help raise awareness.

[00:30:25] [SPEAKER_00]: He said that they were cousins, but they really were raised more like brother and sister.

[00:30:30] [SPEAKER_00]: They're very close.

[00:30:31] [SPEAKER_00]: He said it was always him, his brother, Libby and Kelsey, and they'd all hang out together.

[00:30:36] [SPEAKER_00]: They'd be on the bus together.

[00:30:37] [SPEAKER_00]: They'd go to grandma's house together.

[00:30:40] [SPEAKER_00]: They would just, they were like a quartet little, you know, kind of, some people are very close with their cousins.

[00:30:46] [SPEAKER_00]: And this was certainly a family where that was the case.

[00:30:48] [SPEAKER_01]: He said Libby was one of a kind and would have gone on to do great things.

[00:30:53] [SPEAKER_01]: Uh, he said that Richard Allen has made his life and his family's life a living house.

[00:31:00] [SPEAKER_01]: And now it is time for Richard Allen's life to be a living house.

[00:31:04] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:31:05] [SPEAKER_00]: The, the anger too was, was very much expressed here.

[00:31:09] [SPEAKER_00]: Um, and, and, uh, and he talked about how, quote, the devil has a special place in hell and quote for, for, for people like Allen.

[00:31:18] [SPEAKER_00]: Um, and also that, you know, it may be the prison system.

[00:31:22] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, be where he meets his end just because people in prison.

[00:31:26] [SPEAKER_00]: And we've, we know this from talking with inmates, people in prison, inmates do not, the, the bottom of the pecking order are people who have hurt children.

[00:31:37] [SPEAKER_00]: Um, that, that they are, they're at risk.

[00:31:40] [SPEAKER_00]: And he pointed that out and saying, you know, you might be a dead man walking.

[00:31:44] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes.

[00:31:44] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes.

[00:31:45] [SPEAKER_01]: It's important to remember that the defense has complained long and loud about Richard Allen being kept in a cell, a cell, a cell by himself.

[00:31:55] [SPEAKER_01]: The reason for that is because it was a necessary step to take, to protect him.

[00:32:02] [SPEAKER_01]: And I think all of us understand that if Richard Allen were put into a general population or gen pop, as they call it, it is extraordinarily likely that the other inmates would do him serious harm very quickly.

[00:32:17] [SPEAKER_00]: Uh, no, no question.

[00:32:19] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't think he'd survive very long if that was the case.

[00:32:21] [SPEAKER_00]: Um, the next, and also, uh, Josh also talked to him.

[00:32:25] [SPEAKER_00]: He talked about thanking the town, thanking Delphi for embracing the families and embracing Libby and Abbey's memories, painting the town.

[00:32:32] [SPEAKER_00]: And he said in teal and purple, those are the kind of colors of the girls.

[00:32:36] [SPEAKER_00]: If you go around town now, you can see some ribbons in those colors.

[00:32:39] [SPEAKER_00]: And so he, he thanked the community as well for being so supportive.

[00:32:43] [SPEAKER_01]: The next person to offer an impact statement was Diane Erskine, who is Abbey's grandmother.

[00:32:49] [SPEAKER_01]: She began by stressing that this is not a day of celebration.

[00:32:54] [SPEAKER_01]: It's a day of great sadness.

[00:32:57] [SPEAKER_01]: And she referred to Abbey as my first child's only child.

[00:33:03] [SPEAKER_01]: She said Abbey's favorite phrase was, do you need any help?

[00:33:07] [SPEAKER_00]: She said, uh, in response to that, she said, yes, Abbey, um, I sure need your help right now.

[00:33:15] [SPEAKER_01]: Uh, she said Abbey was not bold or brave, uh, especially when it comes to strangers.

[00:33:21] [SPEAKER_01]: And so that really tears her heart out when she thinks about how Abbey met her end.

[00:33:28] [SPEAKER_01]: Uh, she talked about how Abbey was a shy girl who blushed easily.

[00:33:33] [SPEAKER_01]: And so the idea of her being forced to strip, uh, is, it's just devastating, uh, to her to think about and also to think about the crime scene photos that have been, uh, circulated.

[00:33:47] [SPEAKER_00]: She called them sick propaganda.

[00:33:49] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes.

[00:33:50] [SPEAKER_00]: How they've been used.

[00:33:50] [SPEAKER_00]: And they have been used as sick propaganda.

[00:33:52] [SPEAKER_00]: Some people who lack empathy and lack the ability to regulate themselves essentially feel that it's more important for them to be able to gawk and, and obsess over these things.

[00:34:05] [SPEAKER_00]: Even though they have no ability to even, they don't add anything to the conversation, but they feel like it proves a point that they're trying to make.

[00:34:14] [SPEAKER_00]: And so it is sick propaganda that, that is exactly how it's been used.

[00:34:17] [SPEAKER_01]: She talked about how horrible it was for her to see the graphic crime scene photos and also some of the graphic autopsy photos that was shown during the trial.

[00:34:30] [SPEAKER_01]: She said she didn't really know before then how, uh, intrusive an autopsy is.

[00:34:38] [SPEAKER_01]: And that these are images that are going to haunt her for a very long time.

[00:34:43] [SPEAKER_01]: She says she understands that technically she could have just walked out and not looked at those images, but she kept on thinking about the last words that Abbey spoke on the video that was taken by Libby.

[00:34:57] [SPEAKER_01]: And those last words were Abbey sounding very scared saying, don't leave, don't leave me.

[00:35:04] [SPEAKER_00]: Don't leave me up here.

[00:35:05] [SPEAKER_01]: Don't leave me.

[00:35:06] [SPEAKER_01]: And Libby did not leave her.

[00:35:08] [SPEAKER_01]: And so, uh, Diane felt that she, she could not leave Abbey either.

[00:35:13] [SPEAKER_01]: And so she stayed.

[00:35:16] [SPEAKER_00]: Uh, she talked about how, um, her days are dominated by anxiety and how she, when she wakes up, she makes her bed and calculates the hours before she goes to sleep.

[00:35:29] [SPEAKER_00]: And then she spends her days.

[00:35:32] [SPEAKER_00]: Then she goes to bed and calculates the hours she'll be asleep and hopes that she has a nice dream about Abigail or other loved ones who've passed.

[00:35:42] [SPEAKER_00]: Um, and, uh, unfortunately sometimes she has nightmares instead.

[00:35:46] [SPEAKER_00]: And, uh, she's haunted by what ifs.

[00:35:49] [SPEAKER_00]: She's haunted watching Abby, uh, Abigail's friends grow up.

[00:35:54] [SPEAKER_00]: And, uh, something like what Carrie said, uh, grow up, get married, go to college, live their lives, grow from children to adults.

[00:36:05] [SPEAKER_00]: And Abby will never get to do that.

[00:36:08] [SPEAKER_00]: But, uh, she talks about how many great-grandchildren did she lose that day.

[00:36:13] [SPEAKER_00]: Uh, because Abby will never be able to grow up and become a mother.

[00:36:17] [SPEAKER_00]: Um, and that her family will never be the same.

[00:36:20] [SPEAKER_00]: She feels like a, a version of her has been lost.

[00:36:23] [SPEAKER_00]: She feels guilty because she feels like that person's gone to her family now.

[00:36:28] [SPEAKER_00]: She says, quote, I grieve the life I used to have.

[00:36:31] [SPEAKER_00]: Um, and, uh, she says she's only survived because of her faith in God and that she's comforted by the fact that Abigail had, quote, already given her heart to God.

[00:36:45] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes.

[00:36:46] [SPEAKER_01]: So even though Richard Allen took Abby's life on Earth, she'd already given her life to God.

[00:36:53] [SPEAKER_01]: You want to talk about the next one?

[00:36:55] [SPEAKER_00]: The next one was Diane's husband, um, Aaron Erskine, who is, of course, Abby's grandfather.

[00:37:03] [SPEAKER_01]: And he was one of the ones that talked about how he allegedly was not very articulate, but I found him to be very, very articulate.

[00:37:12] [SPEAKER_01]: And I found his words to be very, very moving.

[00:37:16] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:37:16] [SPEAKER_00]: He talks about him.

[00:37:17] [SPEAKER_00]: He said, I'm more of a nuts and bolts kind of guy, but he's going to do his best.

[00:37:22] [SPEAKER_00]: And he said if I felt it was very difficult for him to process, um, difficult for his family to process this.

[00:37:29] [SPEAKER_00]: Each family member was affected in a different way.

[00:37:32] [SPEAKER_00]: So it's, it's not even like a blanket thing necessarily losing someone like this.

[00:37:37] [SPEAKER_01]: He says kind of like losing a limb that will never come back.

[00:37:40] [SPEAKER_00]: He also compared, uh, going through this case to having a wound that scabs over and then the scab is torn off.

[00:37:48] [SPEAKER_00]: Um, specifically, um, specifically, um, things like the leak of crime scene photos that led to images of his granddaughter, um, her dead body being leaked out on the internet.

[00:38:01] [SPEAKER_00]: Um, that was something that was re-traumatizing.

[00:38:06] [SPEAKER_00]: It, anyone who goes around acting like that's not a big deal, acting like it's just a little drip or that, you know, whatever, you know, everyone who, everyone who, like, downplayed that, everyone who acted, you know, like the minimized it and tried to gaslight people about that.

[00:38:26] [SPEAKER_00]: They should hang their heads in shame.

[00:38:28] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, because of what we heard from these people was agony today about this.

[00:38:33] [SPEAKER_00]: And people should think about it.

[00:38:34] [SPEAKER_00]: If it was someone they loved and cared about.

[00:38:36] [SPEAKER_01]: I think to be blunt, this might be one of the reasons why Bob Modich chose not to be there today because you use the phrase drip.

[00:38:44] [SPEAKER_01]: He was the one that compared the crime scene photos coming out to a drip.

[00:38:48] [SPEAKER_01]: And maybe he could not face the prospect of facing these family members who were so torn apart and continue to be devastated by something that he mocked and made light of.

[00:38:59] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that's going to be an albatross around his neck because that's not something I'm ever going to forget.

[00:39:05] [SPEAKER_00]: And that's something, something anyone who cares at all about any sort of ethics in this space should care.

[00:39:11] [SPEAKER_00]: It should forget.

[00:39:11] [SPEAKER_00]: And frankly, anyone who was involved in that leak and anyone who's involved in minimizing and trying to spin it like it wasn't a big deal, you know, should be absolutely ashamed of themselves if they're capable of such a thing.

[00:39:22] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, these families made it clear how devastating that was.

[00:39:25] [SPEAKER_00]: This was not a little oops.

[00:39:27] [SPEAKER_00]: This was something that is going to haunt these people for the rest of their lives and it didn't need to happen.

[00:39:32] [SPEAKER_00]: And it's just disgusting to me.

[00:39:35] [SPEAKER_00]: You know, but anyway, back to what Mr. Erskine was saying.

[00:39:38] [SPEAKER_00]: He was talking about how that, you know, basically what he said Alan did was he has, quote, stolen our future.

[00:39:55] [SPEAKER_00]: He, gosh, he talked about.

[00:39:59] [SPEAKER_00]: He did talk about God and sort of his faith in God and how that has helped and.

[00:40:07] [SPEAKER_00]: And and and kind of the faith that has helped him and his family through this, he talked about he talking about Alan himself.

[00:40:15] [SPEAKER_00]: He kind of was one thing was really struck by was, quote, how could you continue to go about your daily routine like it never happened?

[00:40:24] [SPEAKER_00]: That's one thing that's always kind of gotten a lot of people about Alan is that, you know, well, there's not really a lot of people close to him who are willing to talk about him.

[00:40:33] [SPEAKER_00]: So I don't know if it's fair to say his daily routine.

[00:40:37] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know if it's fair to say, like, if we can say he didn't change at all because we don't we don't know what he was like before and then after.

[00:40:43] [SPEAKER_00]: Did he become a little bit quieter?

[00:40:45] [SPEAKER_00]: Did he become a little bit more reserved?

[00:40:46] [SPEAKER_00]: Like, did anything change?

[00:40:48] [SPEAKER_00]: We're not we're not necessarily getting answers from people on that.

[00:40:52] [SPEAKER_00]: But I think at the very least, Mr. Erskine is completely right.

[00:40:55] [SPEAKER_00]: Right. Alan clocked back into CVS and kept working and kept just living his normal life for a number of years and certainly wasn't doing anything particularly overt that would signal that anything bad had happened.

[00:41:08] [SPEAKER_00]: And there's something very horrifying about that, because we'd like to think that if someone does something really heinous, they'll be acting differently.

[00:41:16] [SPEAKER_00]: There'll be a way to tell.

[00:41:17] [SPEAKER_00]: It's scary.

[00:41:18] [SPEAKER_00]: The idea that someone could do this and then just go back to normal to a certain extent.

[00:41:23] [SPEAKER_01]: The next person to offer a statement was Becky Patti, who, of course, is the grandmother of victim Liberty German.

[00:41:33] [SPEAKER_01]: I call her a victim.

[00:41:34] [SPEAKER_01]: Obviously, she was far more than a victim and she had a full life and she deserved far better than this.

[00:41:40] [SPEAKER_01]: So I don't I don't mean to just refer to her as a victim.

[00:41:43] [SPEAKER_00]: To Libby.

[00:41:43] [SPEAKER_00]: To Libby's a victim.

[00:41:44] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:41:44] [SPEAKER_01]: I apologize for that.

[00:41:46] [SPEAKER_00]: And I just want to also add with Mr. Erskine, he talked about how he has no doubt that these girls are in heaven.

[00:41:52] [SPEAKER_00]: He called Alan selfish.

[00:41:54] [SPEAKER_00]: And he also talked about how essentially he puts his trust in Judge Gull and felt that she did a really good job with the trial and trust her with the sentence.

[00:42:04] [SPEAKER_01]: Becky Patti said, how can you explain the effect of something like that?

[00:42:08] [SPEAKER_01]: There are not enough words.

[00:42:10] [SPEAKER_01]: Richard Allen is an adult.

[00:42:11] [SPEAKER_01]: He should be held accountable.

[00:42:12] [SPEAKER_01]: She talked about how on the day of the murders, instead of going out for a meal with his mother and sister, he chose to drink beer for liquid courage and then go and basically lie in wait for these two girls who he planned to rape.

[00:42:31] [SPEAKER_01]: She says that once he got frightened when he saw the van come by, he could have let them go.

[00:42:36] [SPEAKER_01]: But instead, he chose to kill them.

[00:42:39] [SPEAKER_01]: She said he was a coward and he did not want to be held accountable for what he had done.

[00:42:44] [SPEAKER_01]: So he killed them and then just went home.

[00:42:47] [SPEAKER_00]: So it's striking to me that she had to say Richard Allen is an adult.

[00:42:52] [SPEAKER_00]: And that might seem odd to people who are not as familiar with the case because it's like, of course, he's an adult.

[00:42:57] [SPEAKER_00]: But the way he's been infantilized throughout this trial by the defense team, it's worth remembering.

[00:43:04] [SPEAKER_00]: You know, this man is in his 50s.

[00:43:05] [SPEAKER_00]: He's what, 52 or something?

[00:43:07] [SPEAKER_00]: I forget.

[00:43:09] [SPEAKER_00]: He's in his early 50s.

[00:43:10] [SPEAKER_00]: The way he's talked about has basically been like, well, mommy and wifey take care of him and he doesn't do anything.

[00:43:17] [SPEAKER_00]: And he's a fragile egg.

[00:43:18] [SPEAKER_01]: He was literally called a fragile egg.

[00:43:20] [SPEAKER_00]: Literally called a fragile egg by the defense psychologist.

[00:43:23] [SPEAKER_00]: It is making him out to be this like pathetic baby of a man.

[00:43:28] [SPEAKER_00]: And, you know, at the end of the day, he very likely struggled with some anxiety, depression, mental health issues, whatever.

[00:43:36] [SPEAKER_00]: You know, a lot of people do when they don't go out and kill two teenage girls.

[00:43:40] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't think that has anything to do with like rape fantasies.

[00:43:43] [SPEAKER_00]: But either way, it's like he made his choice.

[00:43:47] [SPEAKER_00]: He made decisions that day.

[00:43:49] [SPEAKER_00]: Those girls didn't get to decide what happened.

[00:43:51] [SPEAKER_00]: He did.

[00:43:52] [SPEAKER_00]: He had the power and control over that situation.

[00:43:55] [SPEAKER_00]: So by Becky kind of refocusing on that and his accountability, it's kind of an adjustment from what we've been used to hearing about him.

[00:44:01] [SPEAKER_01]: She also referred to an anecdote I think most of us have heard, which is that in the days after the murders, when the family wanted to develop some photos of the girls for the funeral, those photos were developed at CVS by none other than Richard Allen.

[00:44:18] [SPEAKER_01]: She spoke about how when he was developing those photos for them, he must have seen how they were struggling and grieving.

[00:44:28] [SPEAKER_01]: And she wondered what he was thinking.

[00:44:31] [SPEAKER_00]: She talked about how Libby never got to go on dates, never got to go to prom, to college, to marry anybody, to have a family or become the best aunt ever.

[00:44:42] [SPEAKER_00]: Quote, the world was robbed of what could have been.

[00:44:45] [SPEAKER_01]: She also said that Richard Allen was appointed two lawyers who did nothing but twist the knife in the wounds.

[00:44:55] [SPEAKER_01]: And she also referred to how the sloppiness of one of these attorneys allowed photos of Libby's nude and mutilated body to reach the public.

[00:45:09] [SPEAKER_01]: And yeah, that's pretty accurate.

[00:45:13] [SPEAKER_00]: That is true.

[00:45:15] [SPEAKER_01]: And she said family members, because of this lawyer's sloppiness, family members may see them now.

[00:45:21] [SPEAKER_01]: Family members in the future who just want to look up information about their deceased relative may see these pictures.

[00:45:29] [SPEAKER_01]: And as she says, this is entirely the result of the sloppiness of this lawyer.

[00:45:33] [SPEAKER_00]: And that actually reminds me of something that Diane Erskine said.

[00:45:37] [SPEAKER_00]: She talked about how this is trauma that is going to last for generations.

[00:45:42] [SPEAKER_00]: And that's something that Becky touched upon here, talking about how Libby's future nieces, nephews, cousins, if they look this up, they may see what happened to her.

[00:45:54] [SPEAKER_00]: They might see those pictures.

[00:45:55] [SPEAKER_00]: And it affects so many people.

[00:45:58] [SPEAKER_00]: And that's an important point because it'll come up later.

[00:46:01] [SPEAKER_01]: It is not a drip.

[00:46:04] [SPEAKER_01]: She also said she wondered if this lawyer, Andrew Baldwin, would have been so careless if those photos were of his own children.

[00:46:12] [SPEAKER_01]: She also referred to the other attorney, of course, is Brad Rosie.

[00:46:16] [SPEAKER_01]: He rather notoriously said in chambers to the judge that he didn't care much that the photos had leaked.

[00:46:24] [SPEAKER_01]: And, again, Becky wondered if he would say that if it was his children who were depicted in those images.

[00:46:33] [SPEAKER_01]: And she just said Richard Allen is not the victim.

[00:46:36] [SPEAKER_00]: He's not.

[00:46:37] [SPEAKER_00]: And I'll just say this.

[00:46:38] [SPEAKER_00]: Like, one thing that's always baffled me about this defense team is so often they take the kind of obtuse and unempathetic and just kind of, frankly, disgraceful tact.

[00:46:50] [SPEAKER_00]: When there's one available to them that's a little bit more principled, they could have easily, throughout this, have acknowledged the severity of the leak and just said, we are so sorry.

[00:47:00] [SPEAKER_00]: This was a huge breach.

[00:47:01] [SPEAKER_00]: And we understand the pain caused and whatnot.

[00:47:04] [SPEAKER_00]: And really just stuck with that and just said, but we'd still like to stay on.

[00:47:08] [SPEAKER_00]: We don't think we should be thrown off.

[00:47:10] [SPEAKER_00]: Like, you could do that.

[00:47:12] [SPEAKER_00]: Instead, they had all of their little acolytes go out and act like it was just a, you know, just a silly misunderstanding.

[00:47:18] [SPEAKER_00]: Just a silly slip up.

[00:47:20] [SPEAKER_00]: Who amongst us hasn't done something like this?

[00:47:23] [SPEAKER_00]: And act like it was just no big deal.

[00:47:25] [SPEAKER_00]: And that, to me, just was always just baffling.

[00:47:29] [SPEAKER_00]: That it just undermined their credibility and sort of any claim they would have to have any sort of empathy with what these families are going through.

[00:47:38] [SPEAKER_00]: It was just needless.

[00:47:39] [SPEAKER_01]: It was needless.

[00:47:44] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:47:45] [SPEAKER_00]: She, yeah.

[00:47:47] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:47:48] [SPEAKER_01]: You want to wrap her up and then we'll move on to the next one?

[00:47:50] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm looking if there's any other quotes.

[00:47:52] [SPEAKER_00]: She talked about the fallout that her family and the families, both families, have experienced.

[00:48:00] [SPEAKER_00]: And talked about how that quote falls directly on the head of Richard Allen.

[00:48:06] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, that's a comment here I want to read.

[00:48:08] [SPEAKER_00]: Things like the deafening silence in her house.

[00:48:11] [SPEAKER_00]: Things like the lost birthdays, the kind of the impact on their lives and how these girls are gone forever.

[00:48:21] [SPEAKER_01]: She said since Richard Allen's attorneys don't want him in a single occupant cell, she hopes he gets put in gen pop and hope he lives in fear each day.

[00:48:32] [SPEAKER_01]: And remember what we said a few moments ago, that if he is put in gen pop, he's going to be injured.

[00:48:38] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, she said in a – I like the way she said it.

[00:48:40] [SPEAKER_00]: She says he should get the human interaction.

[00:48:42] [SPEAKER_00]: He's so obviously – his defense attorneys feel would be so good for him, so just put him in gen pop.

[00:48:49] [SPEAKER_00]: You know, the anger was certainly palpable and the sadness.

[00:48:55] [SPEAKER_01]: One thing that broke my heart is she said that she lives every day with the burden of the decision she made on that day to allow the girls to go to the trails.

[00:49:03] [SPEAKER_00]: I know, and it's like she didn't do anything wrong.

[00:49:06] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean that –

[00:49:07] [SPEAKER_01]: That's heartbreaking.

[00:49:08] [SPEAKER_00]: It's like a beautiful little trail system in like a peaceful little Indiana town.

[00:49:15] [SPEAKER_00]: There were two of these girls there together.

[00:49:19] [SPEAKER_00]: No one could have anticipated a monster was out there that day hunting, that he had decided that day that he was going to make himself feel like a real man and go hunting for women and girls.

[00:49:30] [SPEAKER_00]: And the fact that she feels guilty about that just breaks my heart.

[00:49:34] [SPEAKER_00]: This is on one person.

[00:49:35] [SPEAKER_00]: This is on Richard Allen.

[00:49:39] [SPEAKER_00]: She said, I take responsibility for that.

[00:49:43] [SPEAKER_00]: What about you, Richard Allen?

[00:49:46] [SPEAKER_00]: Will you ever own up and take responsibility for the choices you made that day?

[00:49:54] [SPEAKER_00]: And she also talked about how the prosecutor – obviously, Nicholas McClelland and his two deputies, James Luttrell and Stacey Diener – put this case frequently above their own needs, put it frequently above everything else.

[00:50:19] [SPEAKER_00]: But, you know, this is – yeah.

[00:50:22] [SPEAKER_00]: She was very eloquent.

[00:50:25] [SPEAKER_00]: I think Becky – everyone really did a great job.

[00:50:28] [SPEAKER_00]: But I think some of the anger and sadness she was able to convey here was – and just she really seemed to be taking the defense to task.

[00:50:36] [SPEAKER_00]: A lot of them did, but certainly in this one.

[00:50:39] [SPEAKER_00]: So I think her husband, Mike Patti, spoke next.

[00:50:42] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, he was the final speaker.

[00:50:43] [SPEAKER_00]: Libby's granddad, of course.

[00:50:45] [SPEAKER_01]: He requested that Richard Allen receive the maximum sentence with no possibility of parole.

[00:50:50] [SPEAKER_01]: He thanked the judge.

[00:50:51] [SPEAKER_01]: He thanked the prosecution.

[00:50:52] [SPEAKER_01]: He thanked the investigative team.

[00:50:55] [SPEAKER_01]: He said that whenever he talked to the investigative team, they never told him they were out of options.

[00:51:02] [SPEAKER_01]: They always were doing a full court press and doing all they could to bring answers to this case.

[00:51:11] [SPEAKER_01]: And he said that's something he would never forget.

[00:51:13] [SPEAKER_01]: He also thanked his family.

[00:51:15] [SPEAKER_01]: And he said something again I find heartbreaking.

[00:51:18] [SPEAKER_01]: He said, I wish I could have protected everyone from having to go through this.

[00:51:23] [SPEAKER_00]: No.

[00:51:24] God.

[00:51:25] [SPEAKER_00]: I just don't – like we've had interactions with the Paddies just through the trial and through their larger family.

[00:51:33] [SPEAKER_00]: And with Abby's family.

[00:51:35] [SPEAKER_00]: They're wonderful people.

[00:51:37] [SPEAKER_00]: One thing that will always stick with me is that the – Libby's family was like feeding people throughout this whole thing.

[00:51:43] [SPEAKER_00]: They were feeding people – I mean they were feeding people who have tried to make their lives hell for years.

[00:51:50] [SPEAKER_00]: Like they were giving food to people who have been objectively awful to them.

[00:51:54] [SPEAKER_00]: And that is the kind of people they are.

[00:51:59] [SPEAKER_00]: They're good people.

[00:52:01] [SPEAKER_00]: They're better people than I could hope to be in that situation.

[00:52:05] [SPEAKER_00]: If I was confronted with – if I was giving food out and I was confronted with the visage of some like sneering idiot who's been trying to harass me and my family for years,

[00:52:16] [SPEAKER_00]: I would probably throw the food in their face.

[00:52:19] [SPEAKER_00]: And they had the grace and decency to just be kind to everyone.

[00:52:24] [SPEAKER_00]: And that just – I don't know how they do that.

[00:52:29] [SPEAKER_01]: They are extraordinary people.

[00:52:31] [SPEAKER_01]: He also took the defense to task for their inability to protect the crime scene photos.

[00:52:38] [SPEAKER_01]: And he also, again, criticized Brad Rosey for saying he didn't care that the crime scene photos had leaked.

[00:52:46] [SPEAKER_01]: He made some comments directly at Richard Allen.

[00:52:49] [SPEAKER_01]: One of the comments he said to Richard Allen, he was talking about – he said actions always speak louder than words.

[00:52:56] [SPEAKER_01]: And I thought it was interesting at that point I saw Richard Allen nod in agreement.

[00:53:01] [SPEAKER_00]: What did he nod in agreement to?

[00:53:04] [SPEAKER_01]: Actions always speak louder than words.

[00:53:08] [SPEAKER_00]: Weirdo.

[00:53:09] [SPEAKER_00]: I think – oh, this was one thing I wanted to say with Becky.

[00:53:13] [SPEAKER_00]: Did she – was she the one who mentioned like stop putting our family through this agony and just actually take accountability?

[00:53:18] [SPEAKER_00]: Was that Mike?

[00:53:20] [SPEAKER_01]: I think Becky said it.

[00:53:21] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:53:22] [SPEAKER_00]: Basically like if you actually feel any remorse, then you can just stop having this kind of basically farce go on

[00:53:29] [SPEAKER_00]: and actually put a stop to whatever stupid appeal you're going to put on.

[00:53:35] [SPEAKER_00]: Essentially was what she was saying.

[00:53:38] [SPEAKER_00]: Which seemed reasonable because, I mean, his whole thing was how sad he felt for the family.

[00:53:42] [SPEAKER_00]: So you would think that dragging them through this endlessly would probably not exactly show any level of remorse.

[00:53:49] [SPEAKER_00]: And I apologize.

[00:53:50] [SPEAKER_00]: I think I said – Becky said something about the prosecutors.

[00:53:53] [SPEAKER_00]: That was actually Mike.

[00:53:53] [SPEAKER_00]: I had my notes mixed up.

[00:53:55] [SPEAKER_00]: So just wanted to clarify that.

[00:54:00] [SPEAKER_01]: Becky's really made the comment about the appeals.

[00:54:02] [SPEAKER_01]: So did Mike.

[00:54:02] [SPEAKER_01]: I see here in my notes that he said stop the appeals.

[00:54:06] [SPEAKER_01]: Let the girls rest in peace.

[00:54:08] [SPEAKER_00]: Yes.

[00:54:09] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean basically saying like that as long as that's going on, there's obviously no remorse.

[00:54:17] [SPEAKER_00]: And yeah, all of these folks were incredibly eloquent and what they said was powerful, emotional.

[00:54:23] [SPEAKER_00]: I cried.

[00:54:25] [SPEAKER_00]: I know other people were crying.

[00:54:26] [SPEAKER_00]: I think the courtroom with a lot of sniffles in this portion when they were talking.

[00:54:34] [SPEAKER_01]: Shall we move on?

[00:54:35] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:54:36] [SPEAKER_01]: So next it was time for Prosecutor Nick McClellan to make remarks, which basically he was tasked with telling the judge what he thought the sentence should be and then explaining why.

[00:54:52] [SPEAKER_01]: In essence, the judge had certain parameters that she had to choose a sentence from.

[00:55:01] [SPEAKER_01]: McClellan talked about it.

[00:55:03] [SPEAKER_01]: Abby and Libby were very special.

[00:55:04] [SPEAKER_01]: They touched many lives.

[00:55:06] [SPEAKER_01]: They were caring and loving.

[00:55:09] [SPEAKER_01]: He said the family had had to endure six years of torture before the arrest.

[00:55:14] [SPEAKER_01]: He said after the arrest, YouTubers accused the family of being corrupt.

[00:55:19] [SPEAKER_01]: The family was victimized, he said, by the release of the crime scene photos.

[00:55:23] [SPEAKER_01]: Even today, they continue to see the photos.

[00:55:28] [SPEAKER_01]: This also affected the community as a whole.

[00:55:33] [SPEAKER_01]: Now it has become a place where people always lock the doors.

[00:55:37] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:55:38] [SPEAKER_01]: He talked about how Richard Allen has shown nor remorse or regret.

[00:55:43] [SPEAKER_01]: He talked about how Dr. Walla had recorded some information about a confession he had made to her, including the detail about him lying in wait for his victims.

[00:55:58] [SPEAKER_01]: And he said something about that phrase just kept ringing around in his head.

[00:56:03] [SPEAKER_01]: And he found it very disturbing.

[00:56:07] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:56:08] [SPEAKER_00]: The amount of this was not just somebody who decided to rob somebody and it went wrong.

[00:56:13] [SPEAKER_00]: This was somebody who went out with a mission to hunt and stalk women and girls.

[00:56:18] [SPEAKER_00]: And Abby and Libby just happened to be unlucky enough to cross the bridge at that time.

[00:56:24] [SPEAKER_01]: Prosecutor McClellan said that he has probably watched that 43-second video from Libby's phone a thousand times.

[00:56:33] [SPEAKER_01]: And he remains very disturbed by the fear he heard in Abigail's voice.

[00:56:41] [SPEAKER_01]: And that is a very striking and terrible thing to hear.

[00:56:44] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:56:45] [SPEAKER_00]: God, it really, it is.

[00:56:46] [SPEAKER_00]: And the fact that these two young girls were forced to strip naked.

[00:56:50] [SPEAKER_01]: 13 and 14-year-old girls forced to strip and expose their naked bodies.

[00:56:55] [SPEAKER_01]: He says he can't imagine what that was like.

[00:56:58] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, when you think about girls at that age, frankly, heck, when you think about boys at that age, kids at that age, I mean, that's unimaginable.

[00:57:07] [SPEAKER_00]: Someone like Richard Allen is supposed to be someone who's protective of children.

[00:57:12] [SPEAKER_00]: He's a father himself.

[00:57:14] [SPEAKER_00]: Instead, he turned around and did this to other people's kids.

[00:57:17] [SPEAKER_00]: What is, I mean, it's sick.

[00:57:20] [SPEAKER_01]: He said that he believes that Richard Allen would kill again.

[00:57:25] [SPEAKER_01]: And he, again, was struck by the fact that Richard Allen had killed these two girls and then went on with his life as if nothing happened.

[00:57:31] [SPEAKER_01]: And the sentence he wanted was for 65 years on both count to be served consecutively for a total of 130 years.

[00:57:40] [SPEAKER_01]: That's what he was asking the judge.

[00:57:43] [SPEAKER_00]: I want to go ahead.

[00:57:44] [SPEAKER_01]: Go ahead.

[00:57:45] [SPEAKER_00]: I was curious.

[00:57:45] [SPEAKER_00]: How do you think someone can go on with their lives after doing something like that?

[00:57:50] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know.

[00:57:51] [SPEAKER_00]: I have thoughts.

[00:57:52] [SPEAKER_01]: Go ahead.

[00:57:53] [SPEAKER_00]: People often express bafflement.

[00:57:56] [SPEAKER_00]: And I think that that is fair because it is baffling.

[00:57:59] [SPEAKER_00]: But to me, it's not impossible.

[00:58:01] [SPEAKER_00]: To me, someone compartmentalizing, someone who's incredibly selfish, who's basically out there for their own needs.

[00:58:08] [SPEAKER_00]: And, you know, someone who cares deeply about what other people think about them, which we've heard is Richard Allen to a T again and again.

[00:58:15] [SPEAKER_00]: That's how he's been described.

[00:58:16] [SPEAKER_00]: He's very sensitive.

[00:58:17] [SPEAKER_00]: He wants people to like him.

[00:58:19] [SPEAKER_00]: He thinks it's very important what people think about him.

[00:58:22] [SPEAKER_00]: You know, that is the kind of person that can keep chugging, running on fumes.

[00:58:26] [SPEAKER_00]: Maybe on some level they're torn up about it.

[00:58:28] [SPEAKER_00]: Maybe they're not.

[00:58:29] [SPEAKER_00]: Maybe they don't care.

[00:58:29] [SPEAKER_00]: Maybe it's just, you know, an incident for them.

[00:58:33] [SPEAKER_00]: But I think it's possible for people to compartmentalize and move on and just hope that they're not going to get caught because getting caught would wreck their lives.

[00:58:44] [SPEAKER_00]: And in this case, it obviously did.

[00:58:46] [SPEAKER_01]: And then the defense basically made no argument.

[00:58:50] [SPEAKER_01]: Rosie did stand up and say one thing, which I think rubbed you the wrong way, but which I actually think makes sense.

[00:58:56] [SPEAKER_00]: No, I am.

[00:58:56] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm going to say this.

[00:58:57] [SPEAKER_00]: It rubbed me in the wrong way.

[00:58:59] [SPEAKER_00]: But intellectually, it was fair.

[00:59:03] [SPEAKER_01]: Why didn't you say what it is?

[00:59:03] [SPEAKER_00]: Rosie stands up and basically says, judge, I was just hoping we could kind of like almost not count all of the stuff that the family said about us as lawyers.

[00:59:18] [SPEAKER_00]: Which like on first read sounds bad.

[00:59:22] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, basically, he is saying let me let me say perhaps arguably a bit more clearly.

[00:59:27] [SPEAKER_00]: OK, whatever.

[00:59:28] [SPEAKER_01]: He the family's basically listing things called aggravating circumstances.

[00:59:34] [SPEAKER_01]: These are bad things.

[00:59:35] [SPEAKER_01]: This is how it affects us.

[00:59:36] [SPEAKER_01]: Therefore, he deserves a worse sentence.

[00:59:38] [SPEAKER_01]: And in the course of doing so, they had many complaints about the lawyers.

[00:59:42] [SPEAKER_01]: And so Rosie was saying, no matter what you think about those complaints about the defense team, please don't charge them on Richard Allen.

[00:59:51] [SPEAKER_01]: Please just make your sentences.

[00:59:53] [SPEAKER_01]: Please just make your sentencing decision based on Richard Allen and his own acts.

[00:59:57] [SPEAKER_01]: It would be as if I was up for a podcast award for an episode where you just started ranting about cereal and making odd noises.

[01:00:08] [SPEAKER_01]: You would probably say to the judges, you would probably say to the judges, please don't consider my participation.

[01:00:15] [SPEAKER_01]: Just focus and evaluate Kevin on his own merits.

[01:00:18] [SPEAKER_00]: Kind of podcast.

[01:00:20] [SPEAKER_00]: OK, whatever.

[01:00:21] [SPEAKER_00]: I and I think that's fair.

[01:00:23] [SPEAKER_00]: The attorney's behavior is not necessarily aggravating.

[01:00:27] [SPEAKER_00]: That being said, I think it's not it's aggravating to everybody.

[01:00:31] [SPEAKER_01]: It's not aggravating.

[01:00:33] [SPEAKER_01]: It's not an aggravating factor.

[01:00:34] [SPEAKER_00]: But it's also completely fair in my mind for the families to call it out because they've had to endure it for years.

[01:00:39] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, these defense attorneys have been more than happy to sort of dish out whatever they want.

[01:00:44] [SPEAKER_00]: And so I think and also to dismiss the real impact they've their actions have had on these people just from things like the leak and whatnot.

[01:00:52] [SPEAKER_00]: And so I think I think it was reasonable for them to bring it up.

[01:00:57] [SPEAKER_00]: But I do think it was reasonable for Rosie to say, hey, that's that's not going to count against Alan.

[01:01:01] [SPEAKER_00]: Right. What the family was saying is it should almost because he's basically allowed his attorneys to do this.

[01:01:07] [SPEAKER_00]: Like that's been their whole strategy.

[01:01:08] [SPEAKER_00]: So I get what they're saying.

[01:01:10] [SPEAKER_00]: But, you know, it's it would be a little bit too far removed, I would imagine.

[01:01:13] [SPEAKER_00]: So it's it's ultimately not going to count against him.

[01:01:16] [SPEAKER_00]: But certainly part of their truth and part of their experience.

[01:01:20] [SPEAKER_00]: So certainly something worth mentioning.

[01:01:21] [SPEAKER_00]: But just sometimes the way when Rosie brings up like he's often the ones who's like he's on his feet saying like, well, you know, like no one could prove the lawyers did anything wrong.

[01:01:31] [SPEAKER_00]: Like he just it's so defensive.

[01:01:33] [SPEAKER_00]: You know what I mean?

[01:01:34] [SPEAKER_00]: Like they there's been a couple of instances like that where, you know, the people have been testifying.

[01:01:38] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. Well, Alan said that he was, you know, kind of pushed by his lawyers to do this and that.

[01:01:43] [SPEAKER_00]: And he'll be like, oh, don't look over there.

[01:01:44] [SPEAKER_00]: It's like, what are like, yikes.

[01:01:47] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, there's a bear there's very much been a defensiveness to this defense team that has kind of occurred for a long time.

[01:01:55] [SPEAKER_00]: And I would really love to have been a fly on a wall of some of their conversations with Alan about like, what were they telling him to do?

[01:02:02] [SPEAKER_00]: And what were they telling him not to do?

[01:02:04] [SPEAKER_00]: Or, you know, well, I mean, what did he want to do?

[01:02:06] [SPEAKER_00]: Like, were they representing him in that way where they were fulfilling his wishes or what exactly was happening here?

[01:02:14] [SPEAKER_00]: It seems like it'll be very hard to ever get a clear answer on that.

[01:02:17] [SPEAKER_01]: So after that, Judge Gold gave Richard Allen an opportunity to speak, which he did not take.

[01:02:23] [SPEAKER_01]: And so then it was time for Judge Gold to hand down the sentence.

[01:02:29] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[01:02:30] [SPEAKER_01]: First thing she did was there was four murder charges.

[01:02:32] [SPEAKER_01]: What did she do?

[01:02:33] [SPEAKER_00]: She dismissed two of them.

[01:02:35] [SPEAKER_00]: So she only charged him on count, I believe, three and four.

[01:02:38] [SPEAKER_00]: Yes.

[01:02:38] [SPEAKER_00]: So counts one and two were essentially Indiana's version of felony murder, meaning that those are Alan kidnapped the girls and they ended up dead as a result of that kidnapping.

[01:02:49] [SPEAKER_00]: So it's murder.

[01:02:50] [SPEAKER_00]: You can't charge on all – you can't – he can get convicted on all four, but he can't get sentenced on all four because that's double jeopardy.

[01:02:59] [SPEAKER_00]: So they got a winnow down to the two ones, and so they did three and four.

[01:03:05] [SPEAKER_01]: And then she said, okay, let's go through their memo.

[01:03:09] [SPEAKER_01]: The defense team asked me to consider certain things to be a mitigating factor.

[01:03:14] [SPEAKER_01]: In other words, these were things the defense team said I should consider in order to make the sentence more lenient.

[01:03:19] [SPEAKER_01]: They said I should consider the fact that he did not have a criminal history.

[01:03:23] [SPEAKER_01]: And she said, okay, I'll consider it, but I'm not going to give it much weight because even though he did not previously have a criminal history, this particular offense is so serious that that kind of is overshadowed by that.

[01:03:35] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, you don't – yeah, exactly.

[01:03:36] [SPEAKER_01]: They wanted her to consider the fact that this imprisonment will be a hardship on Kathy Allen.

[01:03:43] [SPEAKER_01]: And she said, no, I'm not going to consider that because any time a person's in prison, that could be –

[01:03:48] [SPEAKER_00]: It was a stupid ask, frankly.

[01:03:51] [SPEAKER_01]: They wanted her to consider the fact that he served in the military.

[01:03:54] [SPEAKER_01]: She said, well, no, that's not relevant.

[01:03:56] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, why would that be relevant?

[01:03:58] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, like I appreciate anyone who's part of our armed services and veterans and whatnot, our armed forces rather.

[01:04:04] [SPEAKER_00]: But it was just like they were trying to pitch anything that might sound kind of good.

[01:04:09] [SPEAKER_00]: It was like what does that have to do with the crime?

[01:04:11] [SPEAKER_01]: They wanted her to consider the fact that he had some problems in his lifetime with depression and anxiety, and she said she will not do that because there was no real connection between his depression and his anxiety and what he did to those two girls.

[01:04:30] [SPEAKER_00]: Fair.

[01:05:01] [SPEAKER_00]: And even when they're going on and on about his mental illnesses, it's just like they never really made – I never felt like they painted a portrait of like why – I don't know.

[01:05:11] [SPEAKER_00]: Like it just never really quite added up there, and I just – I don't know.

[01:05:16] [SPEAKER_01]: Then it was time for her to talk about aggravating circumstances.

[01:05:19] [SPEAKER_01]: So again, these are things she's considering that should make the sentence tougher.

[01:05:25] [SPEAKER_01]: She mentioned that she's been a judge for I think either 26 or 27 years.

[01:05:30] [SPEAKER_01]: She's presided over many hideous cases, and she said this ranks right up there with the worst of them.

[01:05:36] [SPEAKER_01]: And she said the impact of what Richard Allen did on these families is astonishing.

[01:05:45] [SPEAKER_00]: Yep.

[01:05:46] [SPEAKER_00]: Yep.

[01:05:47] [SPEAKER_00]: She talked about, you know, judges are not just necessarily permitted to do whatever they want when it comes to sentencing.

[01:05:57] [SPEAKER_00]: She can't just say 1,000 years, right?

[01:06:00] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[01:06:01] [SPEAKER_01]: Basically, for each count, she can choose between 45 to 65 years.

[01:06:05] [SPEAKER_00]: So there's a limit, and there's a ceiling, and there's a basement.

[01:06:10] [SPEAKER_00]: And she also mentioned something that Diane Erskine said here.

[01:06:15] [SPEAKER_01]: Right.

[01:06:15] [SPEAKER_00]: She thanked her.

[01:06:16] [SPEAKER_01]: And I think also Becky Patti, right?

[01:06:19] [SPEAKER_00]: And Becky Patti.

[01:06:20] [SPEAKER_01]: So they spoke of generational impact.

[01:06:22] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, generational impact.

[01:06:23] [SPEAKER_00]: She said, I never even considered that before.

[01:06:25] [SPEAKER_00]: So I think she specifically thanked Diane, but I believe Becky also touched upon it for bringing it up.

[01:06:31] [SPEAKER_00]: And talking about how these families will deal with your carnage forever.

[01:06:38] [SPEAKER_00]: I think that was something she said there.

[01:06:40] [SPEAKER_01]: That is what she said.

[01:06:41] [SPEAKER_01]: That's in my notes.

[01:06:41] [SPEAKER_01]: And then as she said that, he must have rolled his eyes at her because she said, you sit here and you roll your eyes at me as you've rolled your eyes at me throughout the trial.

[01:06:50] [SPEAKER_01]: And this just underscores this man's behavior in court has not served him well.

[01:06:57] [SPEAKER_01]: He's acted erratic and bizarre.

[01:07:00] [SPEAKER_01]: And rolling your eyes at the judge as she is passing down a sentence is not a smart thing to do.

[01:07:05] [SPEAKER_00]: I didn't – we didn't see it because obviously he's not facing us most of the time.

[01:07:08] [SPEAKER_00]: But the fact that she says he's been rolling his eyes at her this whole time, I mean, ridiculous.

[01:07:13] [SPEAKER_00]: It just makes you wonder, is this some sort of like snarky reaction to him not being in control anymore?

[01:07:18] [SPEAKER_00]: Is it the fact that she's a female judge that really bothers him?

[01:07:22] [SPEAKER_00]: You know, I mean, it's not lost on me that, you know, they – you know, the defense made a whole big thing about women running his life basically between his wife and mother.

[01:07:31] [SPEAKER_00]: But then he seems to really resent women if he's going around trying to, you know, rape and murder women and children.

[01:07:39] [SPEAKER_00]: So I wonder if that could be also part of it.

[01:07:42] [SPEAKER_00]: Like, don't tell me what to do.

[01:07:43] [SPEAKER_00]: It's like bratty.

[01:07:44] [SPEAKER_00]: It's just remarkable that one would be – the one thing like defense attorneys tell you to do at sentencing is like, don't react.

[01:07:52] [SPEAKER_00]: Don't react.

[01:07:53] [SPEAKER_00]: Don't get upset.

[01:07:53] [SPEAKER_00]: Don't do anything.

[01:07:54] [SPEAKER_00]: And he's sitting there rolling his eyes.

[01:07:56] [SPEAKER_00]: And this is despite the fact that they've all – this defense team has been coddling him from the beginning and, like, petting his shoulders and stuff like that.

[01:08:03] [SPEAKER_00]: And he can't keep it together.

[01:08:05] [SPEAKER_01]: So she ended up passing a sentence of 65 years on each count for a total of 130 years.

[01:08:12] [SPEAKER_01]: That's the maximum sentence.

[01:08:14] [SPEAKER_01]: So exactly what Mike Paddy asked for.

[01:08:16] [SPEAKER_01]: This was followed rather quickly by Prosecutor McClellan saying he wants to seal the crime scene and autopsy photos.

[01:08:23] [SPEAKER_01]: He also wants to keep Richard Allen's mental health records sealed in order to protect his privacy.

[01:08:30] [SPEAKER_01]: And then after that, the judge announced that the gag order was lifted and the session ended.

[01:08:38] [SPEAKER_01]: But something interesting happened.

[01:08:39] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, can I just – before we get into that, didn't she also say he got some days of credit for time he's already been incarcerated?

[01:08:46] [SPEAKER_00]: So it's going to come out to a little bit less than 130?

[01:08:49] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[01:08:49] [SPEAKER_00]: I think – so that's just something to note.

[01:08:52] [SPEAKER_00]: So the math, if it comes out –

[01:08:53] [SPEAKER_01]: He's going to die in prison.

[01:08:55] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[01:08:55] [SPEAKER_00]: That's what's important.

[01:08:58] [SPEAKER_01]: Gag lifted and then something – there were some raised voices.

[01:09:03] [SPEAKER_01]: Defense attorney Jennifer OJ went over towards Jerry Holman and Nick McClellan

[01:09:13] [SPEAKER_01]: and in very loud language expressed her dismay over having been called unethical.

[01:09:24] [SPEAKER_01]: And I believe it was affirmed by both those gentlemen that that remained their belief.

[01:09:30] [SPEAKER_01]: And she was very unhappy about that and kind of stormed off.

[01:09:35] [SPEAKER_01]: And it's very strange to me that she is so upset about the defense team being called unethical

[01:09:45] [SPEAKER_01]: because the people on the other side of the fence –

[01:09:48] [SPEAKER_01]: I mentioned earlier there's an investigator on the defense team who is palling around with someone

[01:09:54] [SPEAKER_01]: who is calling Jerry Holman an attempted murderer.

[01:09:56] [SPEAKER_01]: They have accused these people of conspiracy.

[01:10:00] [SPEAKER_01]: They have accused these people of hiding and destroying evidence and all sorts of other terrible,

[01:10:05] [SPEAKER_01]: terrible crimes in order to convict their client who is a plainly guilty man.

[01:10:11] [SPEAKER_01]: So they have done all of this.

[01:10:13] [SPEAKER_01]: They have smeared the character of these people for no reason.

[01:10:17] [SPEAKER_01]: And yet they get upset when they are called out for it.

[01:10:21] [SPEAKER_01]: And so perhaps Richard Allen is now the only fragile egg at that table.

[01:10:25] [SPEAKER_00]: Bullies with glass jaws.

[01:10:27] [SPEAKER_00]: They can – I mean it seems like they can dish it but they cannot take it.

[01:10:30] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean that was shocking to me that she kind of got in their faces like that.

[01:10:34] [SPEAKER_00]: It just seemed like unprofessional frankly.

[01:10:36] [SPEAKER_00]: I just also – I don't get it.

[01:10:37] [SPEAKER_00]: It's like – I don't know.

[01:10:39] [SPEAKER_00]: She came into it later than the other two.

[01:10:41] [SPEAKER_00]: She's not implicated in the leak or anything like that.

[01:10:44] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean just take the loss, man.

[01:10:46] [SPEAKER_00]: Like I don't know.

[01:10:47] [SPEAKER_00]: Like they were going to lose this thing.

[01:10:50] [SPEAKER_00]: He was obviously guilty.

[01:10:51] [SPEAKER_00]: The evidence was pretty much insurmountable when they all laid it out at the end of the day.

[01:10:55] [SPEAKER_00]: But they chose to lose without any grace.

[01:10:59] [SPEAKER_00]: And I think that's unfortunate.

[01:11:01] [SPEAKER_00]: I think it's damaging to them in my opinion.

[01:11:04] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't think it needed to happen that way.

[01:11:06] [SPEAKER_00]: I think it's ultimately going to be more damaging to them than it is to the people that they tried to smear.

[01:11:11] [SPEAKER_00]: Because I don't think – I don't think people are walking away thinking, wow, Nicholas McClellan was hiding all that evidence.

[01:11:16] [SPEAKER_00]: I think they're thinking, yeah, he did a very good job with this.

[01:11:18] [SPEAKER_00]: And I don't think they're coming away thinking Jerry Holman is the orchestrator of this bizarre conspiracy.

[01:11:24] [SPEAKER_00]: I think it's like he was part of a team that successfully investigated this case and solved it, which is what – it's like – I don't know.

[01:11:33] [SPEAKER_00]: This defense team – I mean I'm just going to say like I think it's been a mess.

[01:11:37] [SPEAKER_00]: I think it's been a complete mess.

[01:11:39] [SPEAKER_00]: And I think if they can't handle being called unethical in this situation, then I really – I don't know.

[01:11:45] [SPEAKER_00]: Maybe they're not cut out for this.

[01:11:46] [SPEAKER_01]: Fragile eggs.

[01:11:49] [SPEAKER_01]: So that was it for the court session.

[01:11:51] [SPEAKER_01]: There was a press conference held shortly afterwards.

[01:11:54] [SPEAKER_01]: We're going to give you some highlights of it.

[01:11:56] [SPEAKER_01]: Again, I believe video of the complete thing is available.

[01:12:00] [SPEAKER_01]: So we're not going to go into excruciating detail.

[01:12:03] [SPEAKER_01]: But we'll give you some of our impressions.

[01:12:06] [SPEAKER_01]: Sure.

[01:12:06] [SPEAKER_01]: This press conference was held at a conference center where I believe – correct me if I'm wrong – people always say that Adi and I started covering this case from the beginning.

[01:12:17] [SPEAKER_01]: We didn't.

[01:12:17] [SPEAKER_01]: That's not true.

[01:12:19] [SPEAKER_00]: We didn't know each other in 2017.

[01:12:21] [SPEAKER_00]: We didn't know who – I didn't know you.

[01:12:24] [SPEAKER_00]: You didn't know me.

[01:12:25] [SPEAKER_01]: We knew ourselves.

[01:12:27] [SPEAKER_01]: We knew ourselves.

[01:12:27] [SPEAKER_00]: Did we?

[01:12:28] [SPEAKER_00]: Without each other?

[01:12:30] [SPEAKER_01]: How romantic.

[01:12:33] [SPEAKER_01]: But there was a famous press conference in this case in 2019.

[01:12:37] [SPEAKER_01]: This was the New Direction press conference.

[01:12:39] [SPEAKER_01]: And I believe that was held at this conference center.

[01:12:43] [SPEAKER_00]: Yes.

[01:12:43] [SPEAKER_00]: That's what we were told by some of the journalists.

[01:12:46] [SPEAKER_00]: And I think that was referred to in the press conference itself.

[01:12:49] [SPEAKER_01]: So for a lot of people who have covered this case from the beginning, they indicated it was kind of surreal to be back there.

[01:12:56] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[01:12:57] [SPEAKER_01]: For us, it was the first time we were there.

[01:12:58] [SPEAKER_00]: For us, we felt nothing.

[01:13:02] [SPEAKER_00]: Jeremy – oh, very good.

[01:13:04] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[01:13:04] [SPEAKER_01]: Jeremy Piers, who's a public information officer, he said there's going to be –

[01:13:09] [SPEAKER_00]: With the state police.

[01:13:10] [SPEAKER_01]: With the state police.

[01:13:11] [SPEAKER_01]: He said there's going to be a few speakers, Mike Patty, Tony Liggett, Superintendent Doug Carter, and Nick McClellan.

[01:13:17] [SPEAKER_01]: And then Nick would then take some questions.

[01:13:19] [SPEAKER_01]: So the first speaker was Mike Patty.

[01:13:23] [SPEAKER_01]: He said justice has been served.

[01:13:26] [SPEAKER_01]: He talked about this has been eight years of his life.

[01:13:29] [SPEAKER_01]: And I was struck by the fact that he said, if I make it to the age of 80, it will be that 10% of my life has been spent on this.

[01:13:37] [SPEAKER_01]: Jeez.

[01:13:37] [SPEAKER_00]: God.

[01:13:38] [SPEAKER_00]: I can't even imagine for all those family members the amount of what they've had to go through here and the lack of answers, but then the kind of nonsense that came about when answers seemed close at hand.

[01:13:52] [SPEAKER_00]: It's just very frustrating.

[01:13:54] [SPEAKER_00]: And he also thanked the jurors for taking time out of their own lives to put into hearing out this case, methodically going over it, and coming to a decision in it.

[01:14:04] [SPEAKER_00]: He also talked about how the community really embraced his family and the Williams family and thanked the judge for her professionalism as well.

[01:14:14] [SPEAKER_01]: Tony Liggett spoke next.

[01:14:16] [SPEAKER_01]: I think for a lot of people who haven't had the experience of seeing him testify, this was probably their longest exposure to him.

[01:14:25] [SPEAKER_01]: He is an intelligent, articulate guy.

[01:14:29] [SPEAKER_01]: And for a lot of people, they just see film footage of him walking about silently.

[01:14:35] [SPEAKER_01]: So it must have been interesting for them to finally get to hear the man speak.

[01:14:38] [SPEAKER_00]: Where's there film footage of him walking about silently?

[01:14:41] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, you see on newscasts and stuff.

[01:14:43] [SPEAKER_01]: You might see him walking by and escorting a prisoner.

[01:14:46] [SPEAKER_00]: I was like, what?

[01:14:47] [SPEAKER_00]: What?

[01:14:47] [SPEAKER_01]: So people haven't gotten the chance to – he is an intelligent, articulate man.

[01:14:51] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, no, he was very good in the testimony during the trial.

[01:14:55] [SPEAKER_00]: And he was – I mean, everyone who spoke up at this did a very good job.

[01:14:59] [SPEAKER_00]: I thought he was absolutely no exception.

[01:15:01] [SPEAKER_01]: He said today is not about closure.

[01:15:04] [SPEAKER_01]: It's really just turning the page and starting a new chapter.

[01:15:07] [SPEAKER_01]: I was struck by the fact that he apologized that it took – he apologized to the families for the fact that it took eight years to bring a resolution to the case.

[01:15:16] [SPEAKER_01]: I thought that was very humble and it's –

[01:15:19] [SPEAKER_00]: It was poignant.

[01:15:20] [SPEAKER_01]: It was poignant.

[01:15:22] [SPEAKER_01]: And it was somebody – it was a mature man taking responsibility.

[01:15:27] [SPEAKER_00]: And it was like, you know that these investigators who were working on it very hard were – did not want it to take that long and would have done it in a day if they could have.

[01:15:37] [SPEAKER_00]: There was this tip that got buried, you know, a whole mess around that.

[01:15:40] [SPEAKER_00]: But, yeah, you could feel the emotion with that.

[01:15:43] [SPEAKER_01]: It's not his fault it took eight years.

[01:15:45] [SPEAKER_00]: No, no, no.

[01:15:47] [SPEAKER_01]: He said that Kathy Shank, who I'll remind you of, is the person who found the Richard Allen tip.

[01:15:53] [SPEAKER_01]: He gives her – he says she's the reason that we're all here today.

[01:16:00] [SPEAKER_01]: But he also deserves credit because he worked that lead.

[01:16:03] [SPEAKER_01]: When she brought him this information, Tony Ligon knew what to do with it.

[01:16:07] [SPEAKER_00]: He was out there in the CVS parking lot taking photos of this guy's car and running them back so they could look at the Hoosier Harvest Store video.

[01:16:13] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, he was – all of these – so this was a team effort.

[01:16:18] [SPEAKER_00]: And, yeah, he was absolutely a crucial part of that team.

[01:16:20] [SPEAKER_01]: So I think when he – it's not his fault it took eight years.

[01:16:25] [SPEAKER_01]: No.

[01:16:25] [SPEAKER_01]: It's not these guys' fault it took eight years.

[01:16:27] [SPEAKER_01]: He also praised the Indiana State Police and Jerry Holman.

[01:16:31] [SPEAKER_01]: He said early on Jerry Holman said that the Indiana State Police would give you all the help and resources that you need.

[01:16:38] [SPEAKER_00]: So what happened – what he discussed was – and also I will say in the opening I was struck, he actually mentioned the Flora fires.

[01:16:46] [SPEAKER_00]: He said that period of Carroll County where six beautiful young girls were killed in a period of six months.

[01:16:53] [SPEAKER_00]: It was very traumatic for their town.

[01:16:55] [SPEAKER_00]: And he noted Indiana State Police is working the Flora case hard.

[01:16:58] [SPEAKER_00]: It's not a Carroll County case anymore.

[01:17:00] [SPEAKER_00]: But he – the thing with the whole – what were we talking about?

[01:17:06] [SPEAKER_00]: The team effort and sort of with Holman.

[01:17:09] [SPEAKER_00]: He talked about how early on they had a conversation where, you know, it was like, does Carroll County want to take this case?

[01:17:17] [SPEAKER_00]: And he was like, I don't know if we can.

[01:17:19] [SPEAKER_00]: Like, we're a small county.

[01:17:20] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know if the resources are there.

[01:17:22] [SPEAKER_00]: And, like, basically what Holman told him is, like, the State Police aren't going to leave you.

[01:17:27] [SPEAKER_00]: We're going to work this with you.

[01:17:29] [SPEAKER_00]: And, like, we can do this together almost.

[01:17:33] [SPEAKER_00]: And that teamwork was absolutely evinced today.

[01:17:36] [SPEAKER_00]: I will note behind the speakers – it wasn't just, like, the speaker was up there.

[01:17:41] [SPEAKER_00]: Holman was behind them.

[01:17:44] [SPEAKER_00]: You know, Kathy Shank was up there.

[01:17:46] [SPEAKER_01]: Kathy Shank is the volunteer who is taking time to go and help out with this case.

[01:17:54] [SPEAKER_01]: And she is the one that discovered the Richard Allen tip that had been misfiled.

[01:18:01] [SPEAKER_01]: And so she deserves such an enormous amount of credit.

[01:18:05] [SPEAKER_01]: And she is a hero not just for finding the tip but for devoting so much of her time to this case.

[01:18:13] [SPEAKER_00]: Also, how fitting that somebody who worked for years in child protective services kind of came back for one last moment where she's protecting children in that county from a man who was fine to go out and slaughter two kids to satisfy his own sexual desires.

[01:18:32] [SPEAKER_00]: Like, that's the kind of person she is.

[01:18:34] [SPEAKER_00]: She's not getting paid to volunteer.

[01:18:36] [SPEAKER_00]: She's not doing it for money or anything or accolades.

[01:18:38] [SPEAKER_00]: She's going out there because she wanted to – you know, even though she was retired, she wanted to go back out and protect the kids from that county.

[01:18:47] [SPEAKER_01]: And also, as it came out at the trial, the day she found that crucial tip was her deceased husband's birthday.

[01:18:57] [SPEAKER_01]: And so –

[01:18:58] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[01:18:59] [SPEAKER_00]: It's remarkable.

[01:19:00] [SPEAKER_00]: And she's heroic not just because she found the tip but because of all of the effort and energy she put into this just seemingly for the goal of helping people.

[01:19:09] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[01:19:10] [SPEAKER_01]: She was a crucial member of this team.

[01:19:13] [SPEAKER_01]: And Tony Liggett said that he has zero doubt that justice has been served.

[01:19:17] [SPEAKER_01]: And he said today is the day.

[01:19:19] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, he said – he said that – he has stickers of a phrase that came from Becky Patti where she would often post today might be the day and like talking about like the day where they finally find out who Bridge Guy is and the case is finally closed.

[01:19:34] [SPEAKER_00]: And he talked about – I think he has that on his car, on his fridge, on his computer.

[01:19:40] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean this is somebody who obviously wanted to take his work home with him to remind him of how important this case was and it paid off.

[01:19:48] [SPEAKER_01]: And then superintendent of the United States Police, Doug Carter, spoke.

[01:19:54] [SPEAKER_01]: I say he's the superintendent of the United States Police and he is but he only will be for another couple of weeks because he is about to retire and he is retiring on a heck of a win here.

[01:20:06] [SPEAKER_00]: I know, right?

[01:20:07] [SPEAKER_00]: Right? Isn't it wild that this all came down like literally right before he's out the door?

[01:20:12] [SPEAKER_00]: It's like the timing – I mean I don't know.

[01:20:15] [SPEAKER_00]: It's remarkable.

[01:20:15] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean good for him.

[01:20:17] [SPEAKER_00]: I think it's been apparent to anybody who's followed this case for a long time how important this case has been to him.

[01:20:22] [SPEAKER_00]: You can tell from the emotion with which he speaks about it throughout all these different press conferences over the years.

[01:20:30] [SPEAKER_00]: He – it obviously meant a lot to him.

[01:20:33] [SPEAKER_00]: The families of these girls meant a lot to him.

[01:20:35] [SPEAKER_00]: The girls themselves meant a lot to him.

[01:20:37] [SPEAKER_00]: And we saw that kind of culminate today.

[01:20:39] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, you talk about his emotion and he said that he and some of the others have been mocked and ostracized for their emotions but they're not going to apologize for them.

[01:20:50] [SPEAKER_01]: And –

[01:20:50] [SPEAKER_00]: I liked a classic Carter move.

[01:20:51] [SPEAKER_00]: He comes in.

[01:20:52] [SPEAKER_00]: He's like, I have prepared remarks but I'm not going to use them today.

[01:20:55] [SPEAKER_00]: So he kind of – he spoke from the heart.

[01:20:57] [SPEAKER_00]: He spoke not his prepared remarks.

[01:20:58] [SPEAKER_01]: He said a lot of interesting things.

[01:21:00] [SPEAKER_00]: Really fascinating things.

[01:21:01] [SPEAKER_01]: He said he's always going to remember those victim impact statements we told you about.

[01:21:06] [SPEAKER_01]: He talked about – we've mentioned the defense attorneys had alleged all sorts of crazy cover-up theories.

[01:21:13] [SPEAKER_01]: He said any notion of a cover-up is just not correct.

[01:21:18] [SPEAKER_01]: He said they lived by the gag order and the defense did not.

[01:21:22] [SPEAKER_01]: And the fact that the defense did not live by the gag order cost a human life.

[01:21:28] [SPEAKER_01]: Strong words but accurate words.

[01:21:30] [SPEAKER_01]: He's referring to the fact that one of the individuals who were involved in the crime scene photo leak did indeed take his own life.

[01:21:39] [SPEAKER_01]: And again, that death is attributable to the sloppiness.

[01:21:44] [SPEAKER_00]: That death is a tragedy.

[01:21:45] [SPEAKER_00]: I believe that that man was a victim of circumstances put out there by the defense team.

[01:21:52] [SPEAKER_00]: And I don't feel like there's ever really been a full accounting of that.

[01:21:55] [SPEAKER_00]: My heart goes out to that man's family and I – but I mean Carter really spoke from the heart as you can tell.

[01:22:05] [SPEAKER_00]: But also like was just saying kind of like what was on his mind which ultimately was really helpful because like he was very blunt.

[01:22:14] [SPEAKER_00]: More blunt than we've seen him I think.

[01:22:16] [SPEAKER_00]: And it was great because I mean what does he – like he's out the door.

[01:22:19] [SPEAKER_00]: He's just like I'm going to say what I feel.

[01:22:22] [SPEAKER_01]: He said the defense put out a document that put out a narrative that was false.

[01:22:28] [SPEAKER_01]: And he remembered when that came out he was like damn it I wish I could respond.

[01:22:32] [SPEAKER_01]: But he was bound by the gag order.

[01:22:34] [SPEAKER_01]: He said Baldwin and Rosie are responsible for that.

[01:22:37] [SPEAKER_01]: And he did use their names a couple of times to indicate his strong displeasure with them.

[01:22:44] [SPEAKER_01]: He said that the investigators were human beings and there were mistakes made but they always did their best and they never intentionally made any mistakes.

[01:22:54] [SPEAKER_01]: He spoke very highly of Lieutenant Jerry Holman.

[01:22:58] [SPEAKER_01]: He said I will crawl across hot shards of glass for Jerry Holman.

[01:23:04] [SPEAKER_01]: Jerry Holman is not a liar.

[01:23:06] [SPEAKER_01]: And I'll say this.

[01:23:09] [SPEAKER_01]: We've spoken with a lot of people who know Lieutenant Holman and they all have given him very high marks for his honesty.

[01:23:18] [SPEAKER_00]: That is true.

[01:23:19] [SPEAKER_00]: And I think again and again when the defense would often – I mean what Carter is doing here is essentially responding to, you know, how long did this thing go on, Kevin?

[01:23:28] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm sorry.

[01:23:28] [SPEAKER_00]: Like I feel like I'm blanking.

[01:23:29] [SPEAKER_00]: Like was it a year basically?

[01:23:30] [SPEAKER_00]: A year and a half?

[01:23:31] [SPEAKER_00]: Two years?

[01:23:32] [SPEAKER_00]: Two years.

[01:23:33] [SPEAKER_00]: This whole trial.

[01:23:34] [SPEAKER_00]: Once the filing started getting nuts in other words.

[01:23:38] [SPEAKER_00]: I guess it kind of goes back to the Franks memorandum.

[01:23:42] [SPEAKER_01]: I might argue.

[01:23:43] [SPEAKER_01]: Otherwise, I might say that –

[01:23:45] [SPEAKER_00]: Once he started confessing.

[01:23:46] [SPEAKER_01]: I might say that the moment things took a turn was the safekeeping thing.

[01:23:52] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, the safekeeping.

[01:23:53] [SPEAKER_01]: Where this was the motion where they said, oh, he's being kept like a dog in prison of war conditions.

[01:23:58] [SPEAKER_00]: Yes.

[01:23:58] [SPEAKER_00]: So for as long as that, first Liggett, but then even more so I would say Holman became a target for these defense attorneys.

[01:24:07] [SPEAKER_00]: And he was essentially just kind of used as their whipping boy publicly.

[01:24:12] [SPEAKER_00]: And Carter, I think, is standing by his people here.

[01:24:18] [SPEAKER_00]: He's saying no.

[01:24:19] [SPEAKER_00]: Like that's not the case.

[01:24:21] [SPEAKER_00]: Holman represents the best of the Indiana State Police.

[01:24:24] [SPEAKER_00]: He's not what he was made out to be.

[01:24:26] [SPEAKER_00]: And again, I think for a lot of people following the case closely, we would see those defense filings come up and everyone would be like, woo.

[01:24:33] [SPEAKER_00]: And then it would be like it would all come crashing down and usually Holman would be vindicated pretty clearly.

[01:24:38] [SPEAKER_00]: But for other people who haven't followed it as closely, I mean, it might still be out there.

[01:24:43] [SPEAKER_00]: So he's being very forceful.

[01:24:45] [SPEAKER_00]: He's standing by his team and he's saying that people like Holman and Holman himself did a great job and he's proud of them.

[01:24:53] [SPEAKER_00]: And they're not liars.

[01:24:56] [SPEAKER_01]: He said near the end of his remarks, how about we tone down the rhetoric?

[01:25:01] [SPEAKER_01]: How about we start to heal now?

[01:25:03] [SPEAKER_01]: Because the rhetoric really has been heated.

[01:25:06] [SPEAKER_01]: And let's be blunt, that rhetoric has come from one side.

[01:25:11] [SPEAKER_01]: Were there more things you want to say about Carter's remarks?

[01:25:14] [SPEAKER_00]: He did say he had some I wouldn't.

[01:25:18] [SPEAKER_00]: He talked about how, you know, like it's not group thinking the group like he talked about in April 2019.

[01:25:23] [SPEAKER_00]: He and Toe Blasenby, the then sheriff of Carroll County, he said we had a fight in that other room.

[01:25:28] [SPEAKER_00]: Not like a fight, but like an argument where we're debating about I want to do this.

[01:25:32] [SPEAKER_00]: You want to do that?

[01:25:32] [SPEAKER_01]: He said that's what you would hope.

[01:25:33] [SPEAKER_01]: You would hope that people doing something serious would have differences of opinions and work them out and air out different points of view.

[01:25:41] [SPEAKER_01]: He said that's how it was.

[01:25:42] [SPEAKER_01]: That's not a sign of weakness.

[01:25:43] [SPEAKER_01]: That's a sign of strength.

[01:25:44] [SPEAKER_00]: I believe he also stressed to the media, you know, a lot of what was in the filings.

[01:25:51] [SPEAKER_00]: What he was essentially saying, in my view, is like the media was kind of credulously or, you know, I say the media.

[01:25:58] [SPEAKER_00]: That's sort of like talking about police or any other like lawyers, like it's a huge group with a lot of disparate things.

[01:26:04] [SPEAKER_00]: And some people are really good.

[01:26:06] [SPEAKER_00]: Some people not so good.

[01:26:07] [SPEAKER_00]: But but he basically said in this case, he felt the news media was too credulous with the defense and like there'd be these filings and everyone would act like, wow, this must be true.

[01:26:17] [SPEAKER_00]: And like his point was basically like you bought their narrative.

[01:26:21] [SPEAKER_00]: But now maybe think about it.

[01:26:24] [SPEAKER_00]: Like the jury was the only important people in that room and they didn't buy it.

[01:26:29] [SPEAKER_00]: And like maybe, you know, we need to analyze how we're kind of reporting on stuff if we're just completely reporting on one side and the public is getting confused by it.

[01:26:38] [SPEAKER_00]: And also people are getting harassed over it, you know.

[01:26:42] [SPEAKER_00]: And so he was kind of there was a bit of a kind of a pointed thing with the media there.

[01:26:45] [SPEAKER_00]: And I can understand that because of his team, if his guys are basically getting like death threats over the defense narrative that's kind of influenced the mainstream media reporting.

[01:26:56] [SPEAKER_00]: I would be very frustrated if I was a leader, too.

[01:26:59] [SPEAKER_00]: But, you know, I think it wasn't too harsh.

[01:27:02] [SPEAKER_00]: And he also did, I think, thank the media to a certain extent or like at least, you know, like noted like we've been here a long time.

[01:27:09] [SPEAKER_00]: Like some of you have been reporting on it for a long time.

[01:27:11] [SPEAKER_00]: So he acknowledged that.

[01:27:12] [SPEAKER_00]: But there was a little bit of pointedness there.

[01:27:14] [SPEAKER_00]: What did you think?

[01:27:15] [SPEAKER_00]: Did you think that was warranted?

[01:27:17] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes.

[01:27:17] [SPEAKER_00]: I think before I covered this case.

[01:27:21] [SPEAKER_00]: If I heard a superintendent of police say that, I'd be like, oh, whatever.

[01:27:26] [SPEAKER_00]: Like I'd be defensive on behalf of the media.

[01:27:29] [SPEAKER_00]: I'd be like, oh, you know, blah, blah, blah.

[01:27:31] [SPEAKER_00]: But in this case, like, no, I we we saw the same, I think, trend in reporting.

[01:27:37] [SPEAKER_00]: It wasn't everyone and it wasn't necessarily even, you know, all the time.

[01:27:43] [SPEAKER_00]: But it certainly existed and it mostly came out because the defense didn't care about the gag order.

[01:27:49] [SPEAKER_01]: Time to move on to Nick McClelland.

[01:27:51] [SPEAKER_00]: Let's let's do it.

[01:27:53] [SPEAKER_01]: Nick McClelland was the final speaker.

[01:27:56] [SPEAKER_01]: He began by saying, let's have a sigh of relief that this is all over.

[01:28:01] [SPEAKER_01]: He thanked law enforcement.

[01:28:03] [SPEAKER_01]: He talked about how they had been attacked and called corrupt, evil liars.

[01:28:09] [SPEAKER_01]: And he said that despite all of that, they law enforcement did everything they could to stand between the abuse and the family because the law enforcement did all they could to shield the family.

[01:28:21] [SPEAKER_00]: The families of the victims.

[01:28:24] [SPEAKER_01]: He also said there's no way I could have done this without Stacey Diener and James Latrell.

[01:28:29] [SPEAKER_01]: And also he said without Kathy Schenck, who discovered that lead, we would not be here.

[01:28:34] [SPEAKER_01]: He said he appreciated the support of the family.

[01:28:37] [SPEAKER_01]: He also wanted to thank Abby and Libby.

[01:28:41] [SPEAKER_01]: Libby because she recorded on her phone the crucial evidence and Abby because she made sure as she was dying to hide the phone.

[01:28:51] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[01:28:52] [SPEAKER_00]: These girls played a huge role in solving their own case.

[01:28:57] [SPEAKER_00]: He thanked the media for keeping the case at the forefront of public awareness.

[01:29:04] [SPEAKER_00]: And he also had a request for the media, which was there are crime scene photos that continue to circulate to this day.

[01:29:16] [SPEAKER_00]: And please do not use them.

[01:29:18] [SPEAKER_00]: Please do not share them.

[01:29:19] [SPEAKER_00]: Please do not publish them.

[01:29:21] [SPEAKER_00]: Please do not send them to other people.

[01:29:24] [SPEAKER_00]: We gosh, that's a part of the story that still haunts me because we were.

[01:29:31] [SPEAKER_00]: We were the people who tipped off law enforcement that those photos were out there.

[01:29:36] [SPEAKER_00]: I think I think Becky Patty had gotten like word that the one of the photos, the trees were out there.

[01:29:44] [SPEAKER_00]: And we were sent even more graphic pictures of the bodies and we notified law enforcement.

[01:29:51] [SPEAKER_00]: And I remember I vividly remember when that was all first happening.

[01:29:56] [SPEAKER_00]: I thought we could help.

[01:29:59] [SPEAKER_00]: Nip the leak in the bud so it wouldn't be out there for the families.

[01:30:05] [SPEAKER_01]: We tried very, very hard.

[01:30:07] [SPEAKER_00]: I remember being confident.

[01:30:08] [SPEAKER_00]: I remember like we could do this.

[01:30:09] [SPEAKER_01]: And there were a couple of weeks where we were doing everything we could to shut it down.

[01:30:15] [SPEAKER_01]: We were working.

[01:30:17] [SPEAKER_01]: We were staying up nights late trying to do everything we could.

[01:30:20] [SPEAKER_01]: We weren't talking about it on the podcast, obviously.

[01:30:23] [SPEAKER_00]: We didn't report on it until it was too late.

[01:30:25] [SPEAKER_00]: Until it was already.

[01:30:26] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[01:30:27] [SPEAKER_01]: That was a frustrating time.

[01:30:28] [SPEAKER_00]: It was frustrating.

[01:30:29] [SPEAKER_00]: It was heartbreaking because I just really thought we could do it.

[01:30:31] [SPEAKER_00]: And looking back, it's like it had such a negative effect.

[01:30:38] [SPEAKER_00]: A man died by suicide.

[01:30:40] [SPEAKER_00]: Like it was just we tried so hard.

[01:30:45] [SPEAKER_00]: And it just didn't work because, I mean, unbeknownst to us, it had been shared much more widely behind the scenes than we were made aware of initially.

[01:30:53] [SPEAKER_00]: And we've reported on that.

[01:30:55] [SPEAKER_00]: I just it just brings me back.

[01:30:56] [SPEAKER_00]: Like, I don't know.

[01:30:59] [SPEAKER_00]: It's like I feel so bad.

[01:31:01] [SPEAKER_00]: Like, I wish I wish that I wish I wish that it never happened.

[01:31:04] [SPEAKER_00]: And the fact that they have to live with that forever.

[01:31:09] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know.

[01:31:10] [SPEAKER_00]: It's just it's not fair.

[01:31:13] [SPEAKER_00]: It's adding more to their pain.

[01:31:16] [SPEAKER_00]: And I would just urge anyone who shares that stuff is a scumbag, in my view, and does not have any sort of place in in polite society and should be publicly shamed.

[01:31:30] [SPEAKER_00]: So that's that's what I'll say about that.

[01:31:32] [SPEAKER_00]: There's absolutely no reason for those to be out there.

[01:31:34] [SPEAKER_01]: Then Prosecutor McClellan took some questions.

[01:31:39] [SPEAKER_01]: One of them was kind of it struck me as being kind of silly.

[01:31:43] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't have the exact wording here, but basically one of their reporters said, hey, hey, Mr.

[01:31:48] [SPEAKER_01]: Prosecutor, wouldn't you agree there's some pretty big holes in this case?

[01:31:52] [SPEAKER_01]: And the prosecutor McClellan said, no, I'm paraphrasing.

[01:31:56] [SPEAKER_01]: But that was the gist.

[01:31:57] [SPEAKER_00]: I would not concede that, I think.

[01:31:59] [SPEAKER_01]: And as someone who we were in this trial every day and we did a whole episode on the evidence in this trial, and I am here to tell you in the strongest possible words, there are no holes in this case.

[01:32:14] [SPEAKER_01]: Richard Allen killed those girls.

[01:32:17] [SPEAKER_01]: He is a murderer.

[01:32:18] [SPEAKER_01]: He is where he belongs.

[01:32:20] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I agree.

[01:32:21] [SPEAKER_01]: Someone else that incident with Miss.

[01:32:24] [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, I love that somebody asked about this.

[01:32:26] [SPEAKER_01]: Someone asked about what the heck was going on with Jennifer Oje.

[01:32:31] [SPEAKER_01]: And he.

[01:32:32] [SPEAKER_00]: A gentleman never.

[01:32:33] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, he was like, he was like, oh, I'm not going to tell.

[01:32:35] [SPEAKER_01]: She was commenting on things that were said during the sentence.

[01:32:39] [SPEAKER_00]: That's such a lawyer answer.

[01:32:40] [SPEAKER_00]: And then he was all like, I'm just going to leave that as private between us.

[01:32:44] [SPEAKER_00]: So like what the.

[01:32:45] [SPEAKER_00]: So that was not.

[01:32:46] [SPEAKER_00]: We were not the only ones.

[01:32:47] [SPEAKER_00]: If you if you watch the live broadcast, that's the context.

[01:32:52] [SPEAKER_00]: He.

[01:32:53] [SPEAKER_01]: That's all the questions I wanted to talk about.

[01:32:55] [SPEAKER_01]: What do you have?

[01:32:56] [SPEAKER_00]: Let me let me look.

[01:32:58] [SPEAKER_00]: Somebody asked about the appeal.

[01:32:59] [SPEAKER_00]: Like, are you confident that it's going to hold up on appeal?

[01:33:02] [SPEAKER_00]: And he he said he's very confident in the verdict and the sentence.

[01:33:05] [SPEAKER_00]: And ultimately, he's not the appeals court, though.

[01:33:08] [SPEAKER_00]: So all that's up to them.

[01:33:09] [SPEAKER_00]: And his office will be ready and available to the.

[01:33:13] [SPEAKER_00]: You know, the what is it?

[01:33:15] [SPEAKER_00]: You know, whoever is handling the appeal, who handles the appeal.

[01:33:17] [SPEAKER_00]: It's not.

[01:33:18] [SPEAKER_00]: It's not.

[01:33:18] [SPEAKER_00]: McLuhan won't be handling the appeal.

[01:33:20] [SPEAKER_01]: Probably attorney general.

[01:33:21] [SPEAKER_00]: Attorney general.

[01:33:22] [SPEAKER_00]: That's my words were not coming.

[01:33:24] [SPEAKER_00]: And I'm just looking.

[01:33:26] [SPEAKER_00]: Yes.

[01:33:27] [SPEAKER_00]: People just don't don't share the pictures.

[01:33:29] [SPEAKER_00]: And.

[01:33:30] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[01:33:32] [SPEAKER_00]: Then it kind of.

[01:33:35] [SPEAKER_00]: Ended.

[01:33:37] [SPEAKER_01]: Could I give a bit of news?

[01:33:39] [SPEAKER_01]: Do you want to give a bit of news?

[01:33:40] [SPEAKER_00]: Can I just say?

[01:33:40] [SPEAKER_00]: Can we can we can we can you said about Alan being guilty?

[01:33:45] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm very fully confident that Alan committed these murders.

[01:33:49] [SPEAKER_00]: I think he's a heinous excuse for a human being.

[01:33:51] [SPEAKER_00]: And he's exactly where he should be.

[01:33:53] [SPEAKER_00]: He should never see the light of.

[01:33:55] [SPEAKER_00]: He's never.

[01:33:56] [SPEAKER_01]: You should never take another breath as a free.

[01:33:58] [SPEAKER_00]: No, he should never take another breath as a free man.

[01:34:00] [SPEAKER_00]: He should die in prison.

[01:34:01] [SPEAKER_00]: That's where he belongs.

[01:34:02] [SPEAKER_00]: The what he did to these families, what he did to these girls, how he basically.

[01:34:07] [SPEAKER_00]: Tortured them before killing them.

[01:34:10] [SPEAKER_00]: I have I have nothing good but contempt.

[01:34:12] [SPEAKER_00]: I'd like to understand him better and figure out what makes him tick.

[01:34:15] [SPEAKER_00]: But as far as sympathy goes, my sympathy is reserved for those girls and their families and the community that he so wronged.

[01:34:22] [SPEAKER_00]: And I think anybody at this point that's basically acting like a fanboy over a child killer needs to seek professional help.

[01:34:29] [SPEAKER_00]: That's just my take.

[01:34:31] [SPEAKER_01]: Can I say a bit of news?

[01:34:32] [SPEAKER_00]: Give the news.

[01:34:33] [SPEAKER_01]: I think we've alluded to this, that now that the gag order has been lifted, it is our intent to try to get interviews on the record with as many people as we can who were bound by the gag order.

[01:34:49] [SPEAKER_01]: Because obviously we've done our best to report things to you.

[01:34:53] [SPEAKER_01]: We've sat through this trial.

[01:34:54] [SPEAKER_01]: We've told you about all the testimony.

[01:34:56] [SPEAKER_01]: But there are things we don't know just because the people involved have not been available to talk.

[01:35:03] [SPEAKER_01]: And so we have been able to confirm our first interview.

[01:35:08] [SPEAKER_01]: And actually, as an interview with somebody in the Patreon we did the other day, a person.

[01:35:12] [SPEAKER_01]: I said, who would you most like us to see interview first?

[01:35:16] [SPEAKER_01]: And somebody mentioned this name.

[01:35:19] [SPEAKER_01]: Do you want to say who the name is?

[01:35:20] [SPEAKER_00]: And see, if you join the Patreon, we're going to do exactly what you say.

[01:35:24] [SPEAKER_00]: We're going to make it happen.

[01:35:25] [SPEAKER_00]: So our first.

[01:35:25] [SPEAKER_01]: Anya's lying.

[01:35:26] [SPEAKER_01]: Anya's lying.

[01:35:27] [SPEAKER_01]: Who's the first interview with?

[01:35:29] [SPEAKER_00]: Our first interview is going to be with Lieutenant Jerry Holman.

[01:35:32] [SPEAKER_01]: And so we've confirmed this.

[01:35:34] [SPEAKER_01]: And.

[01:35:36] [SPEAKER_00]: We're going to try to do it and then put it together as quickly as possible.

[01:35:39] [SPEAKER_01]: As quickly as possible.

[01:35:40] [SPEAKER_01]: And I'm very anal about schedules and stuff.

[01:35:44] [SPEAKER_01]: So I just want to clarify to you.

[01:35:46] [SPEAKER_01]: We're always very proud that we always have an episode out every Tuesday.

[01:35:51] [SPEAKER_01]: And so this interview was going to be the Tuesday episode.

[01:35:55] [SPEAKER_01]: And it's still going to count as the Tuesday episode.

[01:35:58] [SPEAKER_01]: But we're not going to make you wait until Tuesday.

[01:36:00] [SPEAKER_01]: Tuesday.

[01:36:00] [SPEAKER_00]: So it's like a.

[01:36:01] [SPEAKER_00]: It's like a.

[01:36:02] [SPEAKER_00]: What?

[01:36:03] [SPEAKER_00]: It's like a metaphorical.

[01:36:04] [SPEAKER_00]: It's like a.

[01:36:04] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm saying.

[01:36:05] [SPEAKER_00]: Spiritually a Tuesday episode.

[01:36:07] [SPEAKER_01]: As soon as we can.

[01:36:08] [SPEAKER_01]: We're not going to make you wait until Tuesday.

[01:36:10] [SPEAKER_01]: We're going to try to get the episode out as soon as we can.

[01:36:14] [SPEAKER_01]: And that means you're not going to get an episode on Tuesday.

[01:36:16] [SPEAKER_00]: Okay.

[01:36:17] [SPEAKER_00]: Okay.

[01:36:18] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't want people to be upset on Tuesday because they don't have an episode.

[01:36:22] [SPEAKER_00]: I really think we're the only people who care about the Tuesday thing.

[01:36:25] [SPEAKER_00]: But I appreciate your persnicketyness.

[01:36:28] [SPEAKER_00]: And yeah, I'm excited.

[01:36:30] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm excited to talk to Lieutenant Holman.

[01:36:31] [SPEAKER_00]: I think it'll be really interesting.

[01:36:33] [SPEAKER_00]: And yeah, that will be.

[01:36:36] [SPEAKER_00]: That will be kind of hopefully the first in several interviews with people who have the first hand experience.

[01:36:42] [SPEAKER_01]: We've approached other people and I'm optimistic this will not be a one interview series.

[01:36:47] [SPEAKER_00]: That would be pretty embarrassing though.

[01:36:51] [SPEAKER_00]: We do the branding and everything and it's like this is it.

[01:36:54] [SPEAKER_00]: No, I think it'll be.

[01:36:54] [SPEAKER_00]: I think it'll be good.

[01:36:55] [SPEAKER_00]: And hopefully this will just give even more clarity and just more, you know, we want to talk to people on all sides, on all perspectives.

[01:37:04] [SPEAKER_01]: And yeah, we're inviting everybody.

[01:37:07] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm sure there's some people who are not likely to accept our invitation.

[01:37:11] [SPEAKER_01]: But they're going to get one.

[01:37:13] [SPEAKER_00]: Everyone's going to get one.

[01:37:15] [SPEAKER_00]: And if people want to, they can do it.

[01:37:16] [SPEAKER_00]: And if not, that, you know, then that's their choice.

[01:37:19] [SPEAKER_00]: But we're going to we're going to try with everyone.

[01:37:21] [SPEAKER_00]: A lot of people ask us, are you going to try to talk to this person or that point?

[01:37:24] [SPEAKER_00]: If you can think of them in the case, we're going to try to talk to them.

[01:37:26] [SPEAKER_00]: That's kind of just how we're going to approach it.

[01:37:28] [SPEAKER_00]: But I'm really excited about this.

[01:37:31] [SPEAKER_00]: And so I don't know when this is going to be out.

[01:37:33] [SPEAKER_00]: But, you know, we're going to.

[01:37:35] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm thinking before Tuesday.

[01:37:36] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[01:37:37] [SPEAKER_01]: Which is why I made my remarks.

[01:37:38] [SPEAKER_00]: Which is why you made your confusing and very detailed remarks.

[01:37:43] [SPEAKER_01]: See, if I'm listening to a podcast, I know they do like an episode on a certain day.

[01:37:49] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to be disappointed if I show up on that day and it's not going to be there.

[01:37:52] [SPEAKER_00]: I think it's I think that's I think that's true.

[01:37:54] [SPEAKER_00]: We do a lot of episodes, though.

[01:37:56] [SPEAKER_00]: So I think people are used to kind of us being a little all over the place.

[01:38:00] [SPEAKER_01]: There have been times we do like three episodes a week, usually.

[01:38:03] [SPEAKER_01]: And there have been times when we did all three episodes on a Monday and Tuesday.

[01:38:07] [SPEAKER_01]: We don't release another episode to the following.

[01:38:09] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, yeah, I remember.

[01:38:09] [SPEAKER_01]: And then by like Thursday or Friday, people are saying, what happened to Kevin and Anya?

[01:38:13] [SPEAKER_01]: Are they dead?

[01:38:13] [SPEAKER_00]: Kevin and Anya are dead in a ditch somewhere.

[01:38:15] [SPEAKER_00]: And or the murder sheet's done for now.

[01:38:19] [SPEAKER_00]: Ha ha.

[01:38:19] [SPEAKER_00]: And it's like, no, we just you know, we're just we're just trying our best here.

[01:38:23] [SPEAKER_00]: But yeah.

[01:38:25] [SPEAKER_00]: Anything else to add with that?

[01:38:26] [SPEAKER_01]: I think that's it.

[01:38:27] [SPEAKER_00]: I think we got it.

[01:38:28] [SPEAKER_00]: All right.

[01:38:28] [SPEAKER_00]: Thanks, everyone, for listening.

[01:38:29] [SPEAKER_00]: Feels kind of like a end of an era here.

[01:38:32] [SPEAKER_00]: But of course, you know, there'll be there'll be things to cover with appeals and whatnot.

[01:38:37] [SPEAKER_00]: And hopefully some people to interview.

[01:38:38] [SPEAKER_00]: So can expect more Delphi coverage in that respect.

[01:38:41] [SPEAKER_00]: And in the meantime, you know, we'll be covering other cases as well.

[01:38:45] [SPEAKER_00]: But we really appreciate your patience and support as as you've listened to us on this.

[01:38:50] [SPEAKER_00]: And we're really humbled by that.

[01:38:52] [SPEAKER_00]: And just want to just thank you as audience members for trusting us with your time and trusting

[01:38:58] [SPEAKER_00]: the information that we provide you.

[01:38:59] [SPEAKER_00]: And just it means a lot to us.

[01:39:01] [SPEAKER_00]: So thank you.

[01:39:02] [SPEAKER_01]: Thanks so much for listening to The Murder Sheet.

[01:39:05] [SPEAKER_01]: If you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover, please email us at murdersheet at gmail.com.

[01:39:13] [SPEAKER_01]: If you have actionable information about an unsolved crime, please report it to the appropriate authorities.

[01:39:21] [SPEAKER_00]: If you're interested in joining our Patreon, that's available at www.patreon.com slash murdersheet.

[01:39:32] [SPEAKER_00]: If you want to tip us a bit of money for records requests, you can do so at www.buymeacoffee.com slash murdersheet.

[01:39:43] [SPEAKER_00]: We very much appreciate any support.

[01:39:46] [SPEAKER_01]: Special thanks to Kevin Tyler Greenlee, who composed the music for The Murder Sheet, and

[01:39:52] [SPEAKER_01]: who you can find on the web at kevintg.com.

[01:39:56] [SPEAKER_00]: If you're looking to talk with other listeners about a case we've covered, you can join The

[01:40:01] [SPEAKER_00]: Murder Sheet discussion group on Facebook.

[01:40:04] [SPEAKER_00]: We mostly focus our time on research and reporting, so we're not on social media much.

[01:40:09] [SPEAKER_00]: We do try to check our email account, but we ask for patience as we often receive a lot of messages.

[01:40:16] [SPEAKER_00]: Thanks again for listening.

[01:40:22] [SPEAKER_00]: Thanks so much for sticking around to the end of this Murder Sheet episode.

[01:40:25] [SPEAKER_00]: Just as a quick post-roll ad, we wanted to tell you again about our friend Jason Blair's wonderful Silver Linings Handbook.

[01:40:33] [SPEAKER_00]: This show is phenomenal.

[01:40:35] [SPEAKER_00]: Whether you are interested in true crime, the criminal justice system, law, mental health, stories of marginalized people, overcoming tragedy, well-being.

[01:40:46] [SPEAKER_00]: Like, he does it all.

[01:40:47] [SPEAKER_00]: This is a show for you.

[01:40:48] [SPEAKER_00]: He has so many different conversations with interesting people, people whose loved ones have gone missing, other podcasters in the true crime space.

[01:40:59] [SPEAKER_00]: Just interesting people with interesting life experiences.

[01:41:04] [SPEAKER_00]: And Jason's gift, I think, is just being an incredibly empathetic and compassionate interviewer, where he's really letting his guests tell their stories and asking really interesting questions along the way, guiding those conversations forward.

[01:41:16] [SPEAKER_00]: I would liken it to, like, you're kind of almost sitting down with friends and sort of just hearing these fascinating tales that you wouldn't get otherwise.

[01:41:24] [SPEAKER_00]: Because he just has that ability as an interviewer to tease it out and really make it interesting for his audience.

[01:41:31] [SPEAKER_01]: On a personal level, Jason is frankly a great guy.

[01:41:35] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes.

[01:41:35] [SPEAKER_01]: He's been a really good friend to us.

[01:41:38] [SPEAKER_01]: And so it's fun to be able to hit a button on my phone and get a little dose of Jason talking to people whenever I want.

[01:41:46] [SPEAKER_01]: It's a really terrific show.

[01:41:47] [SPEAKER_01]: We really recommend it highly.

[01:41:49] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[01:41:50] [SPEAKER_00]: I think our audience will like it.

[01:41:51] [SPEAKER_00]: And you've already met Jason if you listen consistently to our show.

[01:41:54] [SPEAKER_00]: He's been on our show a couple times.

[01:41:55] [SPEAKER_00]: We've been on his show.

[01:41:57] [SPEAKER_00]: He's a terrific guest.

[01:41:58] [SPEAKER_00]: I say this in one of our ads about him, but I literally always – I'm like, oh, yeah, I remember when Jason said this.

[01:42:03] [SPEAKER_00]: That really resonated.

[01:42:04] [SPEAKER_00]: Like, I do quote him in conversations sometimes because he really has a good grasp of different complicated issues.

[01:42:10] [SPEAKER_01]: She quotes him to me all the time.

[01:42:11] [SPEAKER_00]: I do – I'm like, I remember when Jason said this.

[01:42:13] [SPEAKER_00]: That was so right.

[01:42:14] [SPEAKER_00]: So, I mean, I think if we're doing that, I think – and you like us, I think you should give it a shot.

[01:42:19] [SPEAKER_00]: Give it a try.

[01:42:19] [SPEAKER_00]: I think you'll really enjoy it.

[01:42:21] [SPEAKER_00]: And again, he does a range of different topics, but they all kind of have the similar theme of compassion, of overcoming suffering, of dealing with suffering, of mental health, wellness, things like that.

[01:42:32] [SPEAKER_00]: There's kind of a common through line of compassion and empathy there that I think we find very nice.

[01:42:37] [SPEAKER_00]: And we work on a lot of stories that can be very tough, and we try to bring compassion and empathy to it.

[01:42:43] [SPEAKER_00]: But this is something that almost can be like if you're kind of feeling a little burned out by true crime, I think this is kind of the life-affirming stuff that can be nice to listen to in a podcast.

[01:42:54] [SPEAKER_01]: It's compassionate.

[01:42:55] [SPEAKER_01]: It's affirming.

[01:42:56] [SPEAKER_01]: But I also want to emphasize it's smart.

[01:43:00] [SPEAKER_01]: People – Jason is a very intelligent, articulate person.

[01:43:05] [SPEAKER_01]: This is a smart show, but it's an accessible show.

[01:43:08] [SPEAKER_01]: I think you'll all really enjoy it.

[01:43:11] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and he's got a great community that he's building.

[01:43:13] [SPEAKER_00]: So we're really excited to be a part of that.

[01:43:14] [SPEAKER_00]: We're fans of the show.

[01:43:15] [SPEAKER_00]: We love it.

[01:43:16] [SPEAKER_00]: And we would strongly encourage you all to check it out.

[01:43:19] [SPEAKER_00]: Download some episodes.

[01:43:20] [SPEAKER_00]: Listen.

[01:43:21] [SPEAKER_00]: I think you'll understand what we're talking about once you do.

[01:43:24] [SPEAKER_00]: But anyways, you can listen to The Silver Linings Handbook wherever you listen to podcasts.

[01:43:28] [SPEAKER_01]: Wherever you listen to podcasts.

[01:43:30] [SPEAKER_01]: Very easy to find.

[01:43:31] [SPEAKER_00]: Absolutely.