The Delphi Murders: The Status Hearing That Wasn't

[00:00:00] [SPEAKER_00]: Content Warning. This episode includes discussion of the murder of two children.

[00:00:04] [SPEAKER_01]: Hello everybody. Today we're going to talk about developments in the Delphi case. To state this

[00:00:10] [SPEAKER_01]: very clearly at the top of the episode, there is not much to speak about. Essentially, we went for

[00:00:15] [SPEAKER_01]: a status hearing today in the Delphi case, which of course is the case against Richard Allen,

[00:00:21] [SPEAKER_01]: the man who stands accused of brutally murdering two Delphi teenagers, Liberty German and Abigail

[00:00:27] [SPEAKER_01]: Williams all the way back in 2017. But in fact, this was not open to the public. It all occurred

[00:00:34] [SPEAKER_00]: in private. Yeah, originally it was explained that part of it would be private and part of

[00:00:41] [SPEAKER_00]: it would be public. One part of the conclusion of the private hearing, a gentleman I believe

[00:00:47] [SPEAKER_00]: it was, was it Sheriff Liggett? Sheriff Tony Liggett, yes. Came out and said there's not

[00:00:52] [SPEAKER_01]: going to be a public hearing. So we're going to talk about that, but we're also going to

[00:00:56] [SPEAKER_01]: talk about some filings that did come out today. So there'll be some things to talk about, but this

[00:01:00] [SPEAKER_01]: should not be a particularly long episode as a result. Yeah, I think what we're going to do is

[00:01:03] [SPEAKER_00]: we're going to talk about the filings. We're going to give a little bit of the color and

[00:01:09] [SPEAKER_00]: details, I guess, where there is of just the experience of the courthouse. Yes. And then I

[00:01:14] [SPEAKER_00]: guess we're into vamp about Bacon Fest until we get to about half an hour and then call it

[00:01:18] [SPEAKER_01]: a show. There you go. But we just want to give you a heads up upfront that no shattering

[00:01:23] [SPEAKER_01]: revelations occurred here. We didn't really see anything and we'll just talk about what we did

[00:01:28] [SPEAKER_01]: see and then we'll let you all go. My name is Anya Kane. I'm a journalist. And I'm Kevin Greenlee.

[00:01:34] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm an attorney. And this is The Murder Sheet. We're a true crime podcast focused on original

[00:01:39] [SPEAKER_00]: reporting, interviews and deep dives into murder cases. We are The Murder Sheet.

[00:01:45] [SPEAKER_01]: And this is the Delphi Murders. The status hearing that wasn't. So Anya, do you want to

[00:02:36] [SPEAKER_00]: start with the filings or do you want to start with whatever details we can give about what

[00:02:40] [SPEAKER_01]: the morning was like in the courthouse? Well, didn't you already just say that we were going

[00:02:43] [SPEAKER_01]: to do the filings first? I'm very tired. I'm very glad we woke up so early today.

[00:02:49] [SPEAKER_01]: No, I'm just kidding. So why don't we start, what do we do with what you originally said?

[00:02:54] [SPEAKER_01]: And why don't we start with these filings? Because one thing that tends to happen in the

[00:02:59] [SPEAKER_01]: Delphi cases, while all the reporters and us and everybody else is stuck inside without their phones

[00:03:07] [SPEAKER_01]: on, without their phones even necessarily on their persons, there tends to be updates in the

[00:03:13] [SPEAKER_01]: record in the case. And that means filings that then you kind of have to run outside to check

[00:03:19] [SPEAKER_01]: your phone to learn about. And so that's something that definitely happened today.

[00:03:24] [SPEAKER_01]: I believe there were filings from both the defense and the prosecution in this case.

[00:03:29] [SPEAKER_01]: Just to go over for anyone who's kind of coming into this new, the prosecution is led by Carroll

[00:03:34] [SPEAKER_01]: County prosecutor Nicholas McClelland. And it includes Stacey Deener and James Littrell.

[00:03:43] [SPEAKER_01]: When it comes to the defense, that is Andrew Baldwin, Bradley Rosie, and now Jennifer Auger.

[00:03:49] [SPEAKER_01]: So those are three attorneys on both sides. And of course, it's Judge Francis Segal presiding.

[00:03:56] [SPEAKER_00]: Let's start with the prosecution's filings. The prosecution did a couple of filings that were

[00:04:03] [SPEAKER_00]: motions to quash. And what this means is that the defense wants to take some depositions from

[00:04:12] [SPEAKER_00]: some particular witnesses, and the prosecution is saying no, that shouldn't be allowed for

[00:04:18] [SPEAKER_00]: various reasons. So let's talk about that. Prosecutor McClelland wants to quash the

[00:04:27] [SPEAKER_00]: proposed depositions from Patrick Westfall and Nick Westfall. These of course are people,

[00:04:34] [SPEAKER_00]: Patrick Westfall in particular is a person that the defense has indicated plays some sort of

[00:04:40] [SPEAKER_00]: role in their theory of the crime. How would you describe that?

[00:04:45] [SPEAKER_01]: The defense's theory of the crime is that the girls in this case were sacrificed as part of a

[00:04:52] [SPEAKER_01]: ritual conducted by what they describe as Odinists in the woods of Delphi, and that that

[00:05:00] [SPEAKER_01]: is what occurred. And that Patrick Westfall among others, including Brad Holder, Elvis

[00:05:06] [SPEAKER_01]: Fields, Johnny Messer, were part of this sacrifice and had something to do with the

[00:05:12] [SPEAKER_00]: murders. Now, it's come out that- It's very important to mention that there was a three-day

[00:05:18] [SPEAKER_00]: hearing in the July beginning of August where the defense had the opportunity to present its

[00:05:26] [SPEAKER_00]: case that that theory was actually true. And when challenged, their witnesses were unable

[00:05:32] [SPEAKER_00]: to say that they'd found any evidence linking these people to the crime. So-

[00:05:38] [SPEAKER_01]: That's a big problem when we're talking about the strength of a theory because you need to have

[00:05:44] [SPEAKER_01]: a level of evidence to even have it introduced at trial. And at this time, Kevin and I are not

[00:05:50] [SPEAKER_01]: convinced that the defense cleared that threshold. In fact, we would argue in our

[00:05:55] [SPEAKER_00]: opinions they have not. So as Anya said, Patrick Westfall is a key player in the

[00:06:03] [SPEAKER_00]: theory of the case. They want the defense wants to depose him and Nick Westfall, and McClieland is

[00:06:10] [SPEAKER_00]: arguing no, that shouldn't be allowed because all they have to talk about is Odinism.

[00:06:16] [SPEAKER_00]: That has no relevance to this. Patrick Westfall, Nick Westfall, these men have no connection

[00:06:21] [SPEAKER_00]: to the crime. It would just be a waste of everyone's time to allow this deposition to

[00:06:28] [SPEAKER_00]: Similarly, it's noted that the state has an Odinism witness. I believe his name is David Schilling,

[00:06:37] [SPEAKER_00]: is that correct? That's correct. And the defense wanted to depose him and prosecutor

[00:06:42] [SPEAKER_00]: McClieland made similar arguments. Basically, Odinism is not relevant to this case. So it

[00:06:49] [SPEAKER_00]: shouldn't be, this deposition shouldn't be allowed to occur. And I should hasten to add

[00:06:56] [SPEAKER_00]: that at least as of the time of this recording, Judge Gull has not made her ruling as to whether

[00:07:02] [SPEAKER_00]: or not she will allow a discussion of Odinism or mention of men like Patrick Westfall or Brad

[00:07:08] [SPEAKER_01]: Holder in the trial at all. Well, let's also not forget that there's one other person that

[00:07:12] [SPEAKER_01]: is mentioned in the motion to quash with the Westfalls and I don't- I just want to talk about

[00:07:17] [SPEAKER_01]: the Odinisms once first. Oh, okay. I understand. Do we know? Just I don't know this, but Nick

[00:07:23] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm not sure who that is in relation to Patrick Westfall. I have a guess, but this podcast is

[00:07:29] [SPEAKER_01]: not for me to randomly speculate about people. So I'm not sure who it is either. Yeah. So I

[00:07:33] [SPEAKER_01]: imagine that that's obviously someone connected familiarly to Patrick Westfall and we're not

[00:07:38] [SPEAKER_00]: going to speculate further. So there were three witnesses whose depositions they wanted to

[00:07:43] [SPEAKER_00]: quash who were connected to Odinism. And the argument as we've said is Odinism is irrelevant.

[00:07:48] [SPEAKER_00]: Is Anya mentions in these motions to quash someone else's mentioned? You want to tell us

[00:07:53] [SPEAKER_01]: about that? So it is actually former Sheriff of Carroll County, Tobe Lezenby. He is mentioned as

[00:08:00] [SPEAKER_01]: one of the people who's being deposed by the defense. Now we know from defense filings that

[00:08:05] [SPEAKER_01]: this is not the first time Tobe Lezenby has been deposed. He's been deposed before.

[00:08:10] [SPEAKER_01]: And we know that because they've cited depositions with him before. And in this filing,

[00:08:14] [SPEAKER_01]: McClieland cites the fact that he's been deposed before. Yes, on August 9th, 2023. And this is

[00:08:23] [SPEAKER_01]: what McClieland wrote, I'm going to quote from it, that the state believes the deposition of

[00:08:29] [SPEAKER_01]: Tobe Lezenby is cumulative and oppressive in nature. The state believes that the deposition

[00:08:33] [SPEAKER_01]: is being done in bad faith in an effort to annoy, embarrass or oppress the deponent or party.

[00:08:39] [SPEAKER_01]: And then further, the state believes that all relevant topics were covered by the defense

[00:08:43] [SPEAKER_01]: in that deposition, end quote. And that occurred on August 9th, 2023. So what do you make of this?

[00:08:53] [SPEAKER_00]: I think basically what McClieland is arguing, you have nothing new to talk to this man about,

[00:08:59] [SPEAKER_00]: it's just basically to try to punish him or embarrass him. There's no information that he

[00:09:05] [SPEAKER_00]: has that he hasn't already provided to you. You shouldn't have the right to just go around

[00:09:10] [SPEAKER_01]: and waste his time. So there's a limit when you're talking about deposing different sides

[00:09:16] [SPEAKER_01]: of the case, there's a limit in terms of phishing expeditions or endless depositions that are more

[00:09:25] [SPEAKER_01]: intended to be annoying or harassing or not necessarily actually fact finding missions.

[00:09:32] [SPEAKER_00]: Right. Should we talk about the defense filings?

[00:09:35] [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, let's definitely. Before we get into the substance

[00:09:38] [SPEAKER_00]: of the defense filings, I want to mention a detail about them that's more about process.

[00:09:45] [SPEAKER_00]: In these filings, the defense is asking for certain things and they're saying,

[00:09:50] [SPEAKER_00]: instead of generally we'd have a 30 day deadline for the prosecution to get these

[00:09:54] [SPEAKER_00]: materials to us, we want that deadline to be cut in half, made it instead be a deadline

[00:09:59] [SPEAKER_00]: of 15 days. And the reason for that is because trial is fast approaching and we want to be

[00:10:06] [SPEAKER_00]: to go through and digest all of this material before the trials.

[00:10:11] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I mean that makes sense. What are they asking for?

[00:10:15] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, let's look at the first one they filed first. So this is a subpoena to the Indiana

[00:10:25] [SPEAKER_01]: Department of Correction. And this gets into, this is what they're specifically asking for,

[00:10:34] [SPEAKER_01]: a copy of any Indiana Department of Correction files associated with the conduct of Dr. Monica

[00:10:39] [SPEAKER_01]: Walla while providing services for the Indiana Department of Corrections, including but not

[00:10:44] [SPEAKER_01]: internal and various investigations or investigations conducted by any other agent

[00:10:49] [SPEAKER_01]: of the Indian Department of Corrections. I don't know, was there a typo in that?

[00:10:54] [SPEAKER_01]: Where was the typo? Including, but not internal

[00:10:58] [SPEAKER_01]: affairs investigations. I'm assuming that's included but not, including but not limited

[00:11:04] [SPEAKER_01]: to. Yeah, that makes sense.

[00:11:05] [SPEAKER_01]: And not like including dot dot dot, but we don't want this.

[00:11:08] [SPEAKER_00]: So basically they're indicating they have reason to believe that some sort of

[00:11:13] [SPEAKER_00]: investigation or review was done of some of Dr. Walla's behavior. For instance, we know

[00:11:19] [SPEAKER_00]: for a fact that she accessed a confidential file connected to Kagan Klein. She had no right

[00:11:25] [SPEAKER_00]: to access that file. So they believe there was probably some sort of internal investigation

[00:11:30] [SPEAKER_00]: done of her actions. They want the fruits of that investigation. They also, it sounds

[00:11:36] [SPEAKER_00]: to me they went, there's been any other problems with Dr. Walla over the years?

[00:11:40] [SPEAKER_00]: If so, we want them. We want that information.

[00:11:43] [SPEAKER_01]: So this goes back and we can talk more about this in a moment if you want, but

[00:11:47] [SPEAKER_01]: this goes back to the Dr. Monica Walla serves an interesting role within this whole thing.

[00:11:53] [SPEAKER_01]: But when we're looking at it from the defense perspective, at the three-day hearing,

[00:11:59] [SPEAKER_01]: on the one hand, Brad Rosy was the one questioning Dr. Walla on the stand.

[00:12:04] [SPEAKER_01]: On the one hand, he was very much reliant on her and sort of perhaps very personal

[00:12:12] [SPEAKER_01]: and friendly with her when he was questioning her about what Alan was going through.

[00:12:17] [SPEAKER_01]: It seemed like she played an important role in sort of explaining how hard of a time

[00:12:22] [SPEAKER_01]: Alan had in prison. So she was very helpful to the defense in that sense.

[00:12:27] [SPEAKER_01]: And then things completely flipped when he was talking about her issues here in terms of

[00:12:33] [SPEAKER_01]: looking up what Kate and Klein's records and her conduct around Alan and joining Facebook

[00:12:39] [SPEAKER_01]: groups that were focused on the Delphi case and being very interested in the Delphi case.

[00:12:44] [SPEAKER_01]: So my take on that is that they need to discredit her in that sense because they want

[00:12:49] [SPEAKER_01]: basically mitigate the effects of the confessions he made to her.

[00:12:54] [SPEAKER_01]: And so they're trying to have it both ways in that sense. Well, she's very credible when

[00:12:58] [SPEAKER_01]: it comes to him having a bad time, but you can't believe her on anything, you know, folks.

[00:13:03] [SPEAKER_01]: And I thought Rosy did quite a good job with some of that questioning. I just question myself

[00:13:10] [SPEAKER_01]: the validity of that strategy because I don't know if jury members are going to necessarily

[00:13:15] [SPEAKER_01]: find that compelling because it's what we're supposed to believe her on things that are good

[00:13:18] [SPEAKER_01]: for you, but throw out stuff that's bad for you. I think that's a bit of a hard ask, but

[00:13:23] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know what's going to happen, but this definitely speaks to them wanting to have more

[00:13:28] [SPEAKER_01]: ammo against her, which could be important for them at trial. To me, everything I've heard so

[00:13:35] [SPEAKER_01]: far certainly raises questions about Dr. Wallace conduct, but it does not necessarily raise

[00:13:41] [SPEAKER_01]: questions to me about the validity of her, I guess, hearing confessions because everything

[00:13:50] [SPEAKER_01]: we heard indicated that she was very much in Richard Allen's camp and was even trying to

[00:13:54] [SPEAKER_01]: bolster him by telling him he had an army of online fans advocating for him and also even

[00:14:01] [SPEAKER_01]: stressing to him that he should not confess to anybody or talk to her about this and that

[00:14:05] [SPEAKER_01]: he should talk to his lawyers. So it could be bad for her, but I don't necessarily think

[00:14:09] [SPEAKER_00]: it's bad for the prosecution if that makes sense. So I'm going to now read from their other

[00:14:16] [SPEAKER_00]: request, quote, they want, quote, a complete copy of the employment file and Dr. Monica Walla,

[00:14:23] [SPEAKER_00]: including but not limited to performance evaluations, attendance records,

[00:14:27] [SPEAKER_00]: internal investigations regarding employment matters, and conflict of interest statements,

[00:14:32] [SPEAKER_00]: end quote. So basically, they want her employment file, and they want does she come into work

[00:14:38] [SPEAKER_00]: every day? What have her supervisors thought of her over the years and they had complaints. So

[00:14:44] [SPEAKER_01]: basically more dirt on Dr. Walla. Okay, what do you think? Am I being too hard on the defense

[00:14:50] [SPEAKER_01]: here? Do you think that there is a valid way to thread the needle of having Walla say the

[00:14:56] [SPEAKER_01]: things they need her to say, but also discrediting her where she's saying them the

[00:15:00] [SPEAKER_00]: things that they don't want her to say? I'm not sure there is, but I do remember a point

[00:15:05] [SPEAKER_00]: we made earlier. I mean, way, way earlier, probably more than a year ago,

[00:15:11] [SPEAKER_00]: that time, I think before the confessions really started,

[00:15:16] [SPEAKER_00]: the defense was making a huge effort to try to get rid of the bullet evidence. We all know

[00:15:22] [SPEAKER_00]: that a bullet was found at the crime scene that was linked to Richard Allen, and they were

[00:15:27] [SPEAKER_00]: trying different strategies to get that eliminated from the court record. And the fact that they

[00:15:32] [SPEAKER_00]: were spending so much time on that was basically their way of letting the world know

[00:15:38] [SPEAKER_00]: this bullet evidence is really important and could hurt us. And so I would argue that the

[00:15:42] [SPEAKER_00]: fact they are really wanting to do an in-depth probe of Dr. Walla is a way of them telling

[00:15:48] [SPEAKER_00]: us they believe that Dr. Walla's testimony about the substance of these alleged confessions

[00:15:56] [SPEAKER_00]: that Richard Allen made to her, they believe that would be very, very damaging. And so they

[00:16:01] [SPEAKER_00]: want to do whatever they can to try to mitigate it by calling her credibility into question and

[00:16:07] [SPEAKER_01]: her professionalism into question. So okay, that makes sense. I would think it'd be more

[00:16:14] [SPEAKER_01]: important to then just cut their losses when it comes to the positive things she has to

[00:16:18] [SPEAKER_01]: say about Allen. Yeah, I would agree. That would be the, you know, if it's that bad,

[00:16:22] [SPEAKER_01]: if she got confessions that were like detailed or extensive, or she just heard a lot of them,

[00:16:30] [SPEAKER_01]: then that feels like it's that if that's the case here, and that's why they're doing this,

[00:16:36] [SPEAKER_01]: which I think your reasoning is spot on, they tend to, there's a lot of flurry of activity

[00:16:40] [SPEAKER_01]: around what they think is important, understandably. And so if that's the case, then I think trying

[00:16:47] [SPEAKER_01]: to have it both ways is just not a great strategy. They clearly believe Dr. Walla can

[00:16:51] [SPEAKER_01]: damage them. Yes, I mean, am I am I being am I wrong? Am I wrong to say that stuff that would

[00:16:59] [SPEAKER_01]: perhaps be not good for her career is not necessarily the same thing as stuff that

[00:17:04] [SPEAKER_01]: would be damaging to the case against Allen? Yeah, I would agree with that. Because if she

[00:17:11] [SPEAKER_00]: if she's looking up personal records connected to Keegan Klein, that's a breach that

[00:17:17] [SPEAKER_00]: shouldn't happen. That is just simply wrong. But that doesn't have anything to do with whether or

[00:17:26] [SPEAKER_00]: not she is accurately sharing and reporting on statements made to her from Richard Allen.

[00:17:33] [SPEAKER_01]: That's my thinking, and nothing we heard in the three days testimony, and this would have

[00:17:38] [SPEAKER_01]: been the time to bring it up. Let's be clear. It's not like the defense was like, walking

[00:17:42] [SPEAKER_01]: home and be like, Oh, man, we forgot to, you know, this is their time to let lay everything

[00:17:47] [SPEAKER_01]: out on the table here. And they certainly took their time with Dr. Walla. I would I would argue

[00:17:53] [SPEAKER_01]: that yes, it sounds from what we've heard that the looking up records of someone who was not

[00:17:57] [SPEAKER_01]: her patient for no real reason other than what she said in court, which was that there was like,

[00:18:03] [SPEAKER_01]: it was entertainment to her. I think that is problematic. I would defer to mental health

[00:18:08] [SPEAKER_01]: professionals to see say how problematic is that something where someone should be really

[00:18:12] [SPEAKER_01]: censured or is that basically like a don't do it again situation? I don't feel like I am well

[00:18:17] [SPEAKER_01]: versed enough in the conduct of mental health professionals to really come down very hard on

[00:18:23] [SPEAKER_01]: her or come down lightly on her because I just don't know. But that's certainly something to

[00:18:28] [SPEAKER_01]: complain about when you're the defense. But none of it was in the mode of like,

[00:18:34] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, I definitely think Richard Allen's guilty and I want to achieve that confession

[00:18:39] [SPEAKER_01]: to seal the case against him. It really seemed like she was, I don't know, rooting for him

[00:18:48] [SPEAKER_01]: that there was a personal connection there that there was a like, don't give up,

[00:18:53] [SPEAKER_00]: keep fighting element to their relationship. But obviously, the defense feels perhaps with

[00:18:57] [SPEAKER_00]: some justification that if they are able to attack Dr. Walla enough in front of a jury,

[00:19:04] [SPEAKER_00]: then maybe that jury will not take her seriously as a witness as they would have otherwise.

[00:19:09] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, I think that's fair and certainly within their rights to try to go after people.

[00:19:15] [SPEAKER_00]: Should we now transition to the hearing? I'm in a position, I think the three day hearings,

[00:19:21] [SPEAKER_00]: I took over 100 pages of notes. So I didn't read all those notes on the program.

[00:19:25] [SPEAKER_00]: I can read every single note I took because I took I think a third of a page.

[00:19:30] [SPEAKER_01]: I think I took like a few pages.

[00:19:33] [SPEAKER_00]: Do you want to hit your notes, hit your highlights?

[00:19:36] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't even know what's in here. I don't want to just read through our notes. I don't think

[00:19:40] [SPEAKER_01]: that's compelling. I think we should just, we can look through our notes as the other

[00:19:44] [SPEAKER_01]: one's talking and make sure we don't miss anything but there's really not much to say.

[00:19:49] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, the first thing in my notes is very similar. What was the first thing in my notes

[00:19:52] [SPEAKER_00]: last time which to your dismay was involving Nick McClendon's facial hair. The mustache is

[00:19:59] [SPEAKER_01]: gone. Oh my god, are you kidding me? That's your first note?

[00:20:02] [SPEAKER_00]: That's my first note and some people in the gallery warned its absence.

[00:20:08] [SPEAKER_01]: No one was in the gallery. We didn't even make it into the courtroom.

[00:20:11] [SPEAKER_00]: Some people in the lobby. So there's a big crowd of people in the lobby.

[00:20:16] [SPEAKER_01]: Lobby and then the rotunda. So we got there, I don't know, I mean the court house was open

[00:20:22] [SPEAKER_01]: at that point so we showed up. I think we were first there. We just, I don't know,

[00:20:28] [SPEAKER_01]: sometimes it's like you can't get back to sleep so you're just like why don't we

[00:20:30] [SPEAKER_01]: head up there. And a good amount of people showed up from both the traditional media outlets

[00:20:36] [SPEAKER_01]: as well as new creators as well as people who just wanted to see what was going on and

[00:20:41] [SPEAKER_01]: a conversation that always happens at Delphi related court events is that, you know,

[00:20:46] [SPEAKER_01]: what's gonna happen? Is this gonna be really important? Is this not gonna be important?

[00:20:50] [SPEAKER_01]: And you know, our thing is it, you know, no one really likes to say I don't know what's

[00:20:55] [SPEAKER_01]: going on because you want to sound informed and you know like you're on the ball but

[00:20:59] [SPEAKER_01]: the truth is we don't know what's going on so we're just happy to say that. We don't

[00:21:03] [SPEAKER_00]: know. Could be a big deal, could be nothing. The hearing didn't happen. I want to talk about

[00:21:10] [SPEAKER_01]: another thing. No let's clarify a little bit because that's not fully accurate.

[00:21:15] [SPEAKER_00]: The public hearing didn't happen. There was a private hearing that lasted what about 30

[00:21:20] [SPEAKER_00]: to 40 minutes but the public hearing that was supposed to follow it did not occur.

[00:21:25] [SPEAKER_00]: I want to talk about something else that did not occur today and this was a visit to the courtroom

[00:21:32] [SPEAKER_00]: by Andy Baldwin. Andy Baldwin, one of the defense attorneys, was not present today.

[00:21:37] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes he was absent. It's our understanding that there is currently a trial that he is involved

[00:21:44] [SPEAKER_00]: with. Yes the Caden Smith case. I believe we did an episode on this maybe a year ago. Yeah

[00:21:49] [SPEAKER_01]: We covered the Caden Smith case. He is accused of murdering three young men in Indianapolis and

[00:21:56] [SPEAKER_01]: our understanding is that Andrew Baldwin and David Hennessey are both attorneys on that case.

[00:22:01] [SPEAKER_00]: Yes and one interesting thing about that case is ballistics may be important there as well

[00:22:05] [SPEAKER_00]: so we're going to keep an eye on that and see what the ultimate verdict is. I do want to

[00:22:12] [SPEAKER_00]: note that I've been keeping an eye on court filings in that case and earlier this week

[00:22:16] [SPEAKER_00]: David Hennessey, who is the lead defense attorney in that case, filed a memorandum

[00:22:22] [SPEAKER_00]: complaining that the judge apparently was not allowing him to bring up some dangerous acts he

[00:22:29] [SPEAKER_00]: felt the victims had been participating in. So to be more bluntly he went to

[00:22:35] [SPEAKER_00]: seemingly question the character of the men that his client was accused of murdering.

[00:22:40] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh smear the victims okay there you go. So that's the that when we interviewed Hennessey way back

[00:22:47] [SPEAKER_01]: in the day he said that that would be his swan song right? Yes. That would be the end of

[00:22:52] [SPEAKER_01]: his career. Caden Smith who knows if that's true or not but that's what he told us at the time

[00:22:56] [SPEAKER_01]: so that's going on. Baldwin apparently thought that was more important than this and then

[00:23:03] [SPEAKER_01]: there was also a face missing from the prosecution side. James Luttrell wasn't there.

[00:23:09] [SPEAKER_01]: We didn't see him it's possible we missed him but we did not see him.

[00:23:12] [SPEAKER_01]: So not sure what the story is there. But as for the others, Rosie and OJ, McClieland and

[00:23:19] [SPEAKER_01]: Deener they were all there and so what happened was at a certain point around 1 p.m. we

[00:23:25] [SPEAKER_01]: watched them we watched different police investigators and all go into the courtroom

[00:23:30] [SPEAKER_01]: we watched Judge Gull walk into the courtroom and at some point there I know they brought

[00:23:35] [SPEAKER_01]: out so Alan earlier was led up the stairs by deputies in his orange jumpsuit. I didn't really

[00:23:44] [SPEAKER_01]: get a good look at him and he was just put in a different room to wait for you know to be

[00:23:49] [SPEAKER_01]: brought out to the courtroom but a hearing did happen we are not privy to that information.

[00:23:57] [SPEAKER_01]: We were not inside along with everyone else we were just waiting out in the hallway

[00:24:01] [SPEAKER_01]: expecting there to be a public hearing afterwards that then did not occur.

[00:24:06] [SPEAKER_00]: There was a sizable crowd of people I don't know if you'd call it the lobby or the rotunda.

[00:24:11] [SPEAKER_01]: I would say the rotunda.

[00:24:12] [SPEAKER_00]: There was a sizable crowd of people there including Kelsey German, Becky and Mike Paddy

[00:24:20] [SPEAKER_00]: I would say there were so many people there I wasn't certain they'd all be able to fit

[00:24:25] [SPEAKER_00]: into the courtroom had a public hearing been held.

[00:24:27] [SPEAKER_01]: I felt like they would because a lot of those seats would have been taken out by

[00:24:31] [SPEAKER_01]: members of the sort of victims families and I think we all would have gotten in there but it

[00:24:38] [SPEAKER_01]: would have been a decent crowd not huge but I don't know if I completely agree with you and

[00:24:45] [SPEAKER_01]: yeah it was it kind of got noisy a few times the deputies did tell people to keep

[00:24:50] [SPEAKER_01]: it down a couple of times because they you know everyone's having these kind of quiet

[00:24:55] [SPEAKER_01]: conversations when you add them up all together it starts to get a bit loud and

[00:25:01] [SPEAKER_01]: yeah I would say people were definitely very curious about what was going on.

[00:25:07] [SPEAKER_00]: Superintendant Doug Carter was there and I was struck by the fact again this rotunda is very

[00:25:14] [SPEAKER_00]: very full of people and when Doug Carter comes into it he looks around for just a second and

[00:25:23] [SPEAKER_00]: makes a beeline straight to Kelsey German. Obviously she is the most important person in

[00:25:31] [SPEAKER_00]: the room to him at least at that moment he goes to her she smiles to see him they share

[00:25:37] [SPEAKER_00]: an embrace it was a very nice touching moment that I think speaks to the great relationship

[00:25:44] [SPEAKER_00]: and rapport these people have developed over the years he has really been there for this

[00:25:51] [SPEAKER_00]: family for ever since the beginning and it's obvious there is a lot of mutual

[00:25:58] [SPEAKER_00]: affection and respect and perhaps even love there.

[00:26:01] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah yeah that's definitely a good point and you know I think even though it was not your

[00:26:07] [SPEAKER_01]: traditional courtroom day there's definitely emotions I saw at one point Kathy Allen start

[00:26:13] [SPEAKER_01]: crying she and her mother-in-law Janice Allen were sitting on one side of the rotunda

[00:26:20] [SPEAKER_01]: and at one point towards the end I think she began to cry so definitely not the same

[00:26:27] [SPEAKER_01]: level of detail that we're getting normally but people were definitely there people were

[00:26:31] [SPEAKER_01]: expecting to go in and at some point should I get to the part where they cancelled it

[00:26:37] [SPEAKER_01]: or do you want to say something else? What did we already say? Well yeah Sheriff Tony

[00:26:41] [SPEAKER_01]: Liggett popped his head out and was like there's not going to be a public hearing

[00:26:44] [SPEAKER_01]: something to that effect so I think everyone was a little gobsmacked.

[00:26:49] [SPEAKER_01]: People were like looking around like what? I think I definitely like kind of did my huh

[00:26:53] [SPEAKER_01]: like you know like so I think people were a bit surprised I will say this I think this is

[00:26:58] [SPEAKER_01]: really really important to say and I would just encourage everybody to think about this

[00:27:03] [SPEAKER_01]: and it's so hard not I mean it's it's we're all human right but when it comes

[00:27:08] [SPEAKER_01]: stuff like this people have a tendency to conflate what is convenient and positive for them

[00:27:16] [SPEAKER_01]: with what is normal or what is good even and so what I'm talking about is that when

[00:27:24] [SPEAKER_01]: when we want to know information about a case and there's a closed hearing we don't like that

[00:27:30] [SPEAKER_01]: and we sometimes people take that further and say they're hiding something or there's a cover

[00:27:35] [SPEAKER_01]: what not or there must be a plea deal or it must be really important we fill in the vacuum

[00:27:41] [SPEAKER_01]: of information with whatever our own biases or imaginations say and I just think it's really

[00:27:47] [SPEAKER_01]: important to look at things factually and a little bit dispassionately so when something

[00:27:54] [SPEAKER_01]: like this happens again you have a lot of people oh what the judge doesn't want us to

[00:27:59] [SPEAKER_01]: see or what's going on and what's actually something that's important to note is that

[00:28:04] [SPEAKER_01]: this sort of thing is absolutely not surprising in a case whatsoever Kevin and I have been in court

[00:28:11] [SPEAKER_01]: hearings that were public and were listed as public and then suddenly for reasons that

[00:28:16] [SPEAKER_01]: you know we were not privy to both parties stood up and said we need to go we need to

[00:28:21] [SPEAKER_01]: go private we need to dismiss the gallery right now and this was pre-trial this wasn't

[00:28:25] [SPEAKER_01]: like the jury was there we remember Kevin you know what I'm talking about so we you know

[00:28:30] [SPEAKER_01]: that happens you have things we all I mean if you've been listening to the show for a long time

[00:28:36] [SPEAKER_01]: you were with us through our coverage of the keg and kline pre-trial hearings

[00:28:41] [SPEAKER_01]: and plenty of those either I think in most cases that would be like you'd show up there'd

[00:28:48] [SPEAKER_01]: be a lot of time waiting around and then suddenly it's a two minute hearing so I would

[00:28:56] [SPEAKER_01]: that this stuff is very par for the course and we should not try to rush to fill things in we

[00:29:03] [SPEAKER_01]: should not assume like I think part of it like people assume significance because they want it to

[00:29:08] [SPEAKER_01]: be like interesting and they want it to be like I didn't just waste my time coming here but

[00:29:13] [SPEAKER_01]: just this is the way of court it doesn't necessarily mean anything momentous happened

[00:29:17] [SPEAKER_01]: it doesn't mean anything it's just status hearings can go this way and if they essentially

[00:29:24] [SPEAKER_01]: cleared everything up privately there may have just been a judgment of like well

[00:29:28] [SPEAKER_01]: I guess we don't need to bring anyone else in let's just get out of here so

[00:29:32] [SPEAKER_00]: we were you to vamp about bacon fest am I right about that you're the attorney I don't

[00:29:36] [SPEAKER_00]: want to just be rambling I think you've summarized it perfectly I'm ready to move on

[00:29:42] [SPEAKER_01]: to I'm not because I want to say what we saw afterwards oh there's a gazebo outside the

[00:29:47] [SPEAKER_00]: courthouse and the defense attorneys og rosy and I believe an intern who works with them

[00:29:54] [SPEAKER_00]: met out there in the gazebo with Kathy Allen and Janice Allen obviously we were too far away to

[00:30:01] [SPEAKER_01]: hear what they were saying the women appeared to be smiling yeah so you know if that's there was

[00:30:07] [SPEAKER_01]: some reconvening there and I know that investigators McClelland and the victims families

[00:30:13] [SPEAKER_01]: went into a separate courtroom afterwards so there seemed to be some reconvening on both

[00:30:19] [SPEAKER_01]: I guess I don't know whether that's an update on what happened or just a hey let's check in and

[00:30:25] [SPEAKER_01]: talk we have no way of knowing but that is something to note are you ready to vamp okay

[00:30:34] [SPEAKER_01]: vamp away I don't what vamp what does that mean in this context uh talk about bacon

[00:30:40] [SPEAKER_01]: fest what is this yeah so we're gonna go to bacon fest tomorrow this is something that's

[00:30:45] [SPEAKER_01]: in Delphi it's really important to us when we're talking about like this is a city where

[00:30:49] [SPEAKER_01]: people live it's not just the backdrop for a horrible crime it's like an actual place

[00:30:55] [SPEAKER_01]: in Carroll County Indiana I think a lot of times people I don't know they put all this

[00:31:01] [SPEAKER_01]: weird baggage on a place just because something horrible happened there and then it becomes like

[00:31:06] [SPEAKER_01]: oh it's shadowy or it must be a conspiracy and it's like no just normal people live there

[00:31:11] [SPEAKER_01]: it's a place with normal problems it's a place with nice things going on and one of those things

[00:31:16] [SPEAKER_01]: is bacon fest what is this bacon fest you speak of it's it's I mean I don't know it's an Indiana

[00:31:21] [SPEAKER_01]: bacon festival we just heard about it recently but we're gonna go I think you're supposed to

[00:31:25] [SPEAKER_01]: buy your tickets online I think I'm looking it up right now and it says indianabaconfestival.com

[00:31:30] [SPEAKER_01]: so I mean I don't I don't know if they still have some but I'm assuming I'm assuming they do

[00:31:33] [SPEAKER_00]: I have a feeling it involves bacon yeah so we're gonna go lots of bacon I believe as we

[00:31:39] [SPEAKER_00]: leave it like there's a huge truck parked in the vicinity of the courthouse which my understanding

[00:31:45] [SPEAKER_00]: was just packed with bacon yeah we're we're good was that your understanding and that was my

[00:31:50] [SPEAKER_01]: that's I assume that's what that was there for so we're gonna go and we've spoken with

[00:31:54] [SPEAKER_00]: some people on background highly confidential sources who tell us that it's fun bacon fest

[00:31:59] [SPEAKER_01]: is fun and it's cool that's all we need to hear then we're there so we'll be there if

[00:32:06] [SPEAKER_01]: come say hi to us we're really awkward but it's not you it's us yeah so please come and say hello

[00:32:11] [SPEAKER_00]: to us I'm a little bit worried I want to get in trouble because I don't like bacon yeah Kevin

[00:32:16] [SPEAKER_01]: doesn't like bacon so I'm gonna go and get like eat too much bacon he's gonna be standing

[00:32:21] [SPEAKER_01]: around awkwardly so please come talk to us because otherwise we're just gonna I mean they're

[00:32:26] [SPEAKER_00]: like eating a sensible salad or something because everybody knows I'm all about the healthy

[00:32:31] [SPEAKER_00]: food while you're all about indulging yourself with bacon there you go couldn't be further from

[00:32:38] [SPEAKER_01]: the truth I do love bacon I'm not gonna lie so in other words what I said was true yeah and I

[00:32:43] [SPEAKER_01]: just I want to I want to spend time in Delphi in a way that's not just about something

[00:32:47] [SPEAKER_01]: horrible happening obviously it's very important for us to go to all these hearings whether or

[00:32:51] [SPEAKER_01]: not they turn out to be bombshells doesn't matter that's our job we want to go we want

[00:32:55] [SPEAKER_01]: to inform you tell you what's going on but I'd like to spend some time in Delphi as well

[00:33:00] [SPEAKER_01]: that's just as a city just as a nice city in Indiana where there's it's it's nice it's

[00:33:06] [SPEAKER_01]: cute I like the buildings and the people are very nice you know it I it's a good place

[00:33:12] [SPEAKER_01]: it's not it's not some horrible place where just horrible things happen it's just sometimes

[00:33:20] [SPEAKER_01]: horrible things happen and you know that doesn't need to reflect our entire understanding of a

[00:33:26] [SPEAKER_00]: location and we appellate we're very tired so I'm sure everything was off about this episode but

[00:33:32] [SPEAKER_01]: please be indulgent yeah sometimes I wish like if nothing happens we could just be like eh don't

[00:33:38] [SPEAKER_01]: worry about it but I feel like the nature of where everything is I would rather tell you

[00:33:43] [SPEAKER_01]: that personally and not let anyone spin stuff I'd rather just be like here's what we saw

[00:33:49] [SPEAKER_00]: and then you'd rather tell people that personally so you see yourself going door to door I'm gonna

[00:33:54] [SPEAKER_00]: expect it so so so send your addresses Anya has a pretty busy weekend

[00:34:00] [SPEAKER_01]: just banging on the door late at night and I'll just stay at home and read comic books

[00:34:05] [SPEAKER_01]: and not eat bacon yeah all right well thank you all so much for listening we really appreciate

[00:34:12] [SPEAKER_01]: it and we will hopefully have even more filings and whatnot in the future to to talk about

[00:34:20] [SPEAKER_00]: what's next in this delvish let me say should the uh our friends the listeners should they

[00:34:26] [SPEAKER_00]: expect a bacon fest update on facebook tomorrow I mean probably let's be honest yeah that will

[00:34:34] [SPEAKER_01]: actually be up we'll be in delphi with our phones what a novelty yeah we won't have them

[00:34:40] [SPEAKER_00]: stashed away all right well thank you all so much thank you for listening and uh if again

[00:34:46] [SPEAKER_00]: you see us at bacon fest come up and say hello we'll be better arrested then thanks so much

[00:34:52] [SPEAKER_00]: for listening to the murder sheet if you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover

[00:34:57] [SPEAKER_00]: please email us at murder sheet at gmail.com if you have actionable information about an

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