The Delphi Murders: The Unacceptable

[00:00:00] Content Warning. This episode contains discussion of the murder of two girls, as well as homophobia, ableism, sexual harassment, sexism, mental health issues, and death threats for some reason.

[00:00:13] We don't remember if there's profanity here, but there certainly will be in the many screenshots we will share in our Facebook group. We try to stay away from covering the internet community around Delphi whenever we can.

[00:00:25] Most of the people who belong to this large group, the commenters, the lurkers, the posters, the moderators, and the creators, are honestly fine. They're just people who have gotten really invested in this case. We don't see anything wrong in that.

[00:00:43] A minority are bad faith actors in this space for the wrong reasons, but normally when they are being vile or inaccurate, it's best to just ignore it. Focusing on small-time creators' wrongdoings just brings more eyes on them.

[00:00:59] Today, we'll be breaking that rule. That's because a few people have inserted themselves into this case and engaged in such shocking behavior. It's reached the point where we feel further reporting as necessary.

[00:01:12] The catalyst for our investigation into this group was one highly online middle-aged man who has a penchant for wearing Sherlock Holmes-style deerstocker caps during his online rants about the Delphi case.

[00:01:25] See, he said some things that could complicate everything we thought we knew about the leak of discovery materials in the Delphi case. That's worth digging into. We'll be talking extensively about that man and other so-called sleuths he's affiliated with.

[00:01:41] We reached out repeatedly to everyone involved in this story for comment. None of them responded to our inquiries. Their names and backgrounds are already readily available online. It's all out there.

[00:01:53] All of the sleuths we'll be talking about have either appeared on camera or posted frequently under their own names. And given their decision to insert themselves into this case in such a public manner, we feel comfortable reporting on their identities.

[00:02:08] In fact, we won't be using any of the online aliases of the subject of this episode. We made that choice because naming the names they go under online would only help them market themselves and we wish to deprive them of that opportunity.

[00:02:20] But we still tend to feel that the public deserves to know who exactly is going to such extraordinary lengths to harass and stalk others. As well as attempt to set the narrative by using highly dubious methods.

[00:02:33] We are documenting this element of the case because when you have individuals inserting themselves into the legal wranglings around a double homicide, then that is sometimes worth spotlighting. And as we all know, sunlight is the best disinfectant.

[00:02:44] In this episode, we'll be trying to find out who is the best disinfectant. Let's try to get to the bottom of this and explore the strange, bewildering and often adverse impact the internet community has on the internet. And as we all know, sunlight is the best disinfectant.

[00:03:00] In this episode, we'll be trying to get at whether one sleuths claims are game changing regarding the leak. Or do they simply point to the existence of a bizarre enclave within the Delphi online community?

[00:03:13] Let's explore the strange, bewildering and often adverse impact the internet communities can have on this case. Let's dive deep into a murky pool of so-called internet sleuths who claim that they and they alone know the real story of Delphi. My name is Anya Kane. I'm a journalist.

[00:03:33] And I'm Kevin Greenlee. I'm an attorney. And this is The Murder Sheet. We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews and deep dives into murder cases. We're The Murder Sheet. And this is The Delphi Murders, The Unacceptable.

[00:03:51] This episode centers around internet sleuths, one of our least favorite topics in the Delphi case. We'll be talking about the recent claims of one particular sleuth, Paul Michael Mannion. If he's telling the truth, it could dramatically change our view of the leak of discovery materials.

[00:04:49] To assess what he said though, we need to understand him and the online space he dwells in. Let's talk a bit about Mannion to start off. He has no direct involvement in this case. He is a man in his 40s who works as a nurse up in Michigan.

[00:05:04] He's very active online. He posts in Delphi spaces under multiple aliases and is one of the hosts of a small YouTube channel. As we've said, Mannion has made some interesting statements about Richard Allen's old defense team.

[00:05:18] That, if taken seriously, would throw everything we know about the leak into question. But as with so much in the Delphi case, it is hard to know what to really believe. The statement took place in a discord.

[00:05:31] Mannion actively participates in that discord, which started as a place to chat about the case and has long since devolved into a clearinghouse for conspiracy theories and more. For those of you who aren't familiar, discord is an instant messaging platform.

[00:05:47] This current iteration of Mannion's community sprang out of a group of case followers who became convinced that not only was Ronald Logan the guilty party in the murders but that he was some kind of kingpin who managed to cover up his involvement with help from local law enforcement.

[00:06:06] Apparently, this financially struggling old man's alleged stranglehold on Carroll County endures long after his death. This particular discord is at the center of much that is most wrong about the online community that surrounds this case. We've pieced this story together from talking to many disillusioned current members,

[00:06:26] disturbed former members, and from reviewing a litany of screenshots taken from the discord. It is a space that produces extreme, obsessive, and often bizarrely sexualized and homophobic rhetoric. Sometimes the atmosphere is merely immature and childish.

[00:06:45] They don't like us so they mined on his Facebook for our wedding photos and drew rude things on them. There's also a lot of name calling and comments on other people's physical appearances and weight. There's a lot of fantasizing about other people's sexualities and sex lives.

[00:07:02] It's very edgy. Generally, the space fosters the kind of language and behavior that would likely get one flagged with human resources at work, at the very least. Other times, things get more threatening.

[00:07:16] To understand this space, though, one really has to understand all of the major players involved in running it. Those players include Manion's YouTube co-hosts, Courtney Parsons, a dog and cat food company worker in Texas who moderates for a Delphi-related subreddit, and Angela Szydlowski.

[00:07:34] Parsons is the person who posted that she knew the identity of the muddy and bloody witness, as well as information about that woman's criminal history and allegations of a corrupt bargain with authorities on Reddit. That woman turned out to have no connections to the case.

[00:07:50] Szydlowski, of course, is the licensed clinical social worker associate from North Carolina who unsuccessfully sued Carroll County with Sue Wright, an alleged resident of Michigan, who gave her address as a P.O. Box.

[00:08:04] Their case was based on the Hatch Act, a law that did not actually apply to any of the defendants in the suit. Szydlowski and Wright quickly lost their case and were ordered to pay attorneys' fees. They are both active in the same spaces as Manion.

[00:08:20] We should get into some history here. Our first run-in with Szydlowski occurred when we were pretty new to the case. She was moderating for a YouTuber's Facebook group. When we declined to accept her unsolicited advice on our reporting,

[00:08:33] she seemingly became irate with us and began consulting with random internet cranks to get dirt on us so that she could pass it on to Barbara McDonald, a journalist then working for HLN. One of those cranks let word of the scheme to smear us slip out,

[00:08:48] and we found out that it involved outlandish things like spreading a lie that I had been fired from a journalism job over my alcoholism or sending bottles of wine to our then-residents.

[00:08:59] In our show notes, we'll include a link to the episode where we talked about this more in depth. We found Szydlowski's actions bizarre and troubling, especially the fixation on my alcoholism. I sensed that Lowsky an email warning her that we knew what she was doing

[00:09:13] and that if she libeled us, we would take action. She disappeared for a while after that. We generously assumed that maybe she had allowed the case to consume her and that her better judgment had perhaps prevailed. Since then, screenshots of her statements appear to suggest otherwise.

[00:09:29] She seems to believe that most of the time when anyone says anything kind about us on Reddit is actually us in disguise, that in short we have an army of alternate accounts. Many former members of this Discord identify Szydlowski,

[00:09:43] along with Manion and Parsons as some of the main figures in the group. Now, Manion, Szydlowski, and Parsons' names have been public for some time. They all appear on camera on YouTube and have publicly identified their pseudonyms.

[00:09:59] Interestingly, despite that, whenever they are mentioned in anything less than a wholly positive manner, they begin to accuse others of doxing them. In fact, when they became aware that we were working on this story instead of responding to our request for comment,

[00:10:14] they began polishing posts on why doxing is bad. Their other go-to defense in the face of criticism is accusations of misogyny for some reason. So anyone who criticizes them is apparently a misogynist, at least in their minds.

[00:10:28] This is despite the fact that they run a Discord that frequently bashes women's appearances and uses gendered insults against women they don't like. Calling out women who are engaged in toxic and harassing behavior is misogyny. That's just like the rules of feminism.

[00:10:44] That says nothing of this group's own well-documented history of actual doxing, threats, and harassment of others. This community isn't simply against those they view as rivals, or those who they fail to convince of their theories. Former members tell us the group frequently turns on its own,

[00:11:03] if someone voices a dissenting opinion. The description that former members most frequently use with us to describe the group's dynamic is cult-like. But that hasn't stopped them from drawing in some figures of note.

[00:11:15] A journalist at Vox swung by to use these people as sources for a think piece, ironically detailing how out of control the Delphi cases. Might have been bearing the lead to use these people as anonymous sources rather than digging into their own behavior.

[00:11:30] The Discord that Manion parsons in Szilawski frequent even once boasted journalist Barbara McDonald, now of Court TV, as a member. Now, Manion and others harass her on social media. Manion recently posted that she is a quote, chicken shit journalist who is cowering in the shadows.

[00:11:47] Given that we want to be fully transparent about our own dealings with this community, we should note that we have our own stalker on this particular Discord and associate of Manion parsons and Szilawski. That stalker is a woman in her 60s named Catherine or Kate O'Hare,

[00:12:04] an American living in Mexico where she works for an online education firm. O'Hare has been after us for quite a while. She often operates under her own name on social media. She posts regularly about a close relative of ours with severe special needs.

[00:12:20] That relative has no ability to consent to being in the public eye, so it's obviously bizarre and disturbing that a person claiming to be an educator would do this. It is highly inappropriate in our view.

[00:12:34] She's also reached out to another family member asking them for dirt on us. That family member was left disturbed and baffled by this rather unwelcome interaction. O'Hare is also posted a photo of our house on this Discord over a threatening message.

[00:12:50] She's even boasted about reporting us to the Federal Bureau of Investigation for, well, for unclear reasons. And we can say with confidence that her doing this has borne absolutely no results as of yet. Interestingly, years before we even started our podcast,

[00:13:08] O'Hare obsessively posted about the author and journalist, John Krakauer on her various blogs. Many of these attacks were profane, ad hominem, and downright strange. She seemed to think that Krakauer was directly intervening to sabotage her work.

[00:13:24] We frankly don't think a well respected bestselling author would need to hire a crack team of hackers to drive O'Hare's obscure blog down in the Google search results. But that is something she alleged at one point.

[00:13:38] Again, we feel it's important to state all of this to be transparent about our personal history with this specific community, as well as to give a better sense of the caliber of person belonging to their ranks.

[00:13:51] We should stress that we are far from the only ones they've done this sort of thing to. For the sake of further transparency and documentation, we wish to note that on the Discord and in other spaces,

[00:14:03] Manian O'Hare, Parsons, and Szydlowski have made numerous public ad hominem attacks against us and others in the case. Some of these claims and behaviors are simply bizarre. Here are a few of them. So Lydowski has said that Anja and I should be shot.

[00:14:19] Manian called a close relative of one of the victims in the Delphi case, Dim. We're not naming this person out of respect, since the families have frankly received enough hate from the online community.

[00:14:30] Members of the group have told us that victims' relatives were not off limits from bashing and nasty rumor-mongering that occurred in this Discord. Parsons has said the judge's goal falling seriously ill and being hospitalized was karma, presumably because the judge had made rulings that Parsons disagreed with.

[00:14:50] Szydlowski has made posts diagnosing me with borderline personality disorder, even while noting that that is entirely inappropriate due to her status as a mental health professional. Her reasoning seems to be her conviction that I seek to destroy her by mentioning her in a podcast once

[00:15:07] and unleashing my alleged battalion of alts to argue with her horde of alts on Reddit. That is interesting because she has been documented as using alts and seeking to bash and destroy other people. I would think a therapist would know the meaning of the term projection.

[00:15:22] I know a lot of mental health professionals listen to our show, so I'd be curious whether they think any of this behavior is becoming of a social worker.

[00:15:30] Manian has bloated about harming our business. In particular he said he had sabotaged some really big opportunity we didn't even know about. One day he claimed she'll apparently figure out a way to tell us directly what he has done.

[00:15:43] But again, if he really wanted to tell us that directly we repeatedly contacted him for comment and he never got back to us. Parsons has said that Jason Blair, a guest on our show and fellow podcaster, should die, a word she wrote in all gaps

[00:15:59] and indicated that the worst humans are like him. She did not explain why she had such negative views of him. So, Daski has said that she has compiled extensive notes on our families, careers and personal and medical histories.

[00:16:12] Even though none of these things are remotely relevant to the Delphi case or our coverage of it. O'Hare has made posts calling Gull something that I frankly feel uncomfortable repeating but let's just say is a derogatory word for lesbians.

[00:16:28] This is a word that many lesbians have reclaimed but the context was clearly derogatory and meant to imply physical unattractiveness. Sledowski has claimed that she has a private investigator who has spied repeatedly on Carroll County prosecutor Nicholas McLean.

[00:16:46] That's right, she actually says that she hired someone to surveil prosecutor Nick McLean for reasons we cannot even begin to fathom.

[00:16:57] At one point she even posted photos that were apparently taken by this private eye and these photos seem to show Nick McLean enjoying a high school basketball game.

[00:17:09] And Sledowski posted these photos in a way to suggest that there was something untoward or strange about McLean attending this basketball game. We were post screenshots of what she wrote and the screenshot of McLean at the game in our Facebook group.

[00:17:28] The group recently sponsored a bizarre ultra low turnout rally to protest Gull and support Richard Allen. As far as we can tell no one outside of the handful of people there ever offered any coverage of this rather odd event. They've made up lies about our sex lives.

[00:17:44] They've invented fetishes for us that seem designed to humiliate us based seemingly on their theory that we operate dozens of Reddit alt accounts. They gleefully talk about us, other content creators and figures in the case in a highly sexual manner. It is strange and uncomfortable.

[00:18:03] Accounts associated with the YouTube channel belonging to Sledowski Parsons and Manion have made posts that could be interpreted as threatening Gull for making rulings counter to their opinions. Don't take our word for all this. We have all of these quotations documented and screen-shotted.

[00:18:20] We will be posting redacted versions of these screenshots in our Facebook group for everyone to peruse except in instances where we are barred from doing so by sourcing agreements.

[00:18:30] Of course there is more. Again, this group has done this to other people, public figures in the case, creators and others.

[00:18:39] Amusingly, after we made it clear that we were investigating them, O'Hare made a public statement on social media arguing that she and the others are allowed to comment on public figures like Kevin and I.

[00:18:50] That is certainly true. But we feel that the facts bear out that these so-called sleuths aren't interested in critiques or commentary. They're actually engaged in an organized harassment campaign, one that employs libel and stalking in order to attack those they don't like.

[00:19:05] Now, you may have noticed that we are mostly focusing on the incidents involving us or that we saw ourselves in their public posts. We do this because at this point we don't care what they say about us and we're happy to use these examples to demonstrate their behavior.

[00:19:20] We have heard from many other people who have described their own encounters with this group. Most of them have described feelings shaken, harassed and highly disturbed by their interactions with these people.

[00:19:32] Others who still remain in the group have expressed concern, but they don't speak out because they realize that if they do so, they too would become targets of the others in the group.

[00:19:42] We're not going to get into these stories at this time because they're not ours to tell. There are a few other people who were willing to talk with us on the record though. Here's Bella. That's not her real name. She was a member of the Discord ones.

[00:19:56] Tell us about how you got involved in this Discord. Well, I had been following the case for a while sometime and I had been on some Reddit subs and I eventually found myself in some private group chats on Reddit with some people

[00:20:14] and I was invited over to join their private Discord server. How would you characterize this Discord server in terms of what was discussed, the rhetoric and all of that?

[00:20:24] In their Discord server they have one main platform kind of where everyone can see and talk there and then they also have a more private one where there's a select few certain members that they really trust or hold to a higher value I guess

[00:20:42] and more sensitive topics and you know, things would just be discussed in that private setting. How would you characterize the rhetoric? Did it change over time, get more extreme? Was it always extreme? What was your observation on that?

[00:20:58] After the arrest was announced I feel like things got much more aggressive. It almost felt kind of like this sounds very dramatic but this is the only way I can put it.

[00:21:10] It felt like a cult because if you even gave any suggestions to them or just threw the idea out there asking a question, you would get dog piled on and it may feel stupid and kind of shamed

[00:21:24] and it was just a really big problem if you went against what they were wanting you to say or believe. Is it fair to characterize this group as having kind of sprung out of the wrong Logan? Did it theory? Absolutely. Can you speak to that?

[00:21:42] It did come out of the wrong Logan theory and I know that came to be because Paul had actually been talking with Barbara

[00:21:50] and she had told them some things in private that he shared with some of the more secret members I guess you could say about what that conversation was and that is what really got them going on the wrong Logan theory.

[00:22:04] Here's a question. In terms of the harassment of others can you speak to that? Did this discord participate in anything like that or sort of things that could be characterized as harassment?

[00:22:18] Oh yeah. I'm sure it's still going on but I know that when I was in that discord they were absolutely harassing people not just various content creators or other YouTubers sometimes even family members and most definitely law enforcement officials.

[00:22:39] Did they give a reason for doing any of that? No, never a reason. And what would that... What sort of things did this harassment look like? Lots of alt social media accounts like fake profiles, that's what I mean by alt.

[00:22:56] Fake profiles, kind of taunting messages, photo shopping, photos of them, memes, videos, you name it. I feel like it's happened. And did you feel that this group very much had a one-sided narrative around the case about guilt or innocence? Like were they open to other suggestions?

[00:23:21] Absolutely not. I believe they definitely have a narrative.

[00:23:25] I tried many times to present that, you know, I'd been considering that maybe Richard Allen wasn't totally guilty but I did think that maybe he did have some part in this with what we had heard with what had come out at the time

[00:23:39] and they didn't like that and, you know, they just... they kind of beat me down over it and, you know, they didn't want to hear anything I had to say.

[00:23:50] That's bizarre. And so like you basically were saying I don't believe the state's case and you had a lot of questions about maybe he, you know, is innocent but you just also had questions about maybe not and so that wasn't good enough for them.

[00:24:03] Exactly. I was just kind of questioning things and you weren't even allowed to do that. It's kind of you're either with us or you're against us. What was the reaction like? Can you tell us more about what exactly was said and how you were confronted?

[00:24:17] Well, I would just bring up points. I think this was a little bit maybe after the PCA had been released and I brought up, well, something about...

[00:24:25] You guys say it can't possibly be him but there's three witnesses that saw him and he corroborated their statements. So how do you explain that? And Paul would just be like, oh, so you know more than Barbara McDonald, you know more than Lois Gibson

[00:24:40] and it started a whole fight which is actually what eventually led to me cutting ties with them. Can you tell us about any of the rhetoric directed at the family members of the victims from these people?

[00:24:53] They've definitely, in private at least, they have definitely said something about the family that I'm sure they would not appreciate. Things that I would definitely consider disrespectful. Can you think of any examples of things they might have said?

[00:25:06] I know that Paul has called... What was the word? Kind of an airhead basically. Calling slum lords. That's really what comes into my mind at this particular moment.

[00:25:22] My goodness. Can you talk to listeners about how easy it is to get caught up in some of the rhetoric, as you may have done at points when you're in a group like this? Even if then when you step back you're like, oh wait, what?

[00:25:34] Yeah. So like I said, it sounds really dramatic but it does feel like a cult. When you're in it, you kind of have rose-colored glasses on and everybody's telling you one thing and that's the only side you're hearing.

[00:25:48] So you kind of, you believe it and you go with it because that's the only perspective you're getting and you're believing. And when you get away from that, it really opens your eyes and then you realize like, wow.

[00:25:59] So looking back, you're not... You don't agree with some of the things you may have said in the past?

[00:26:05] No, absolutely not. I don't agree with anything I would have said in the past and I'm honestly embarrassed to have ever been associated with that group in the first place.

[00:26:14] Why are you speaking out about this and can you tell us about why you think it's important that people realize that a group like this is out there?

[00:26:22] I'm speaking out because I know that there's other people who want to but I mean with the things these people have done and they are doing,

[00:26:31] I don't blame people for being scared and someone's got to do it and I guess if I got to be the one to put myself out there and call these people out for who they really are then so be it.

[00:26:42] Someone's got to do it because they've done a lot of damage to this case in my opinion. Can you speak to what damage you think that they have done to this case? Just the online chaos I feel like has been because of them.

[00:26:55] Do you want to tell us about the PI? Yes, so Angela had told me in private that she had hired a private investigator. Her and Sue Wright actually had hired a private investigator out of Lafayette to watch Nick McLean or she would call him,

[00:27:12] you know she's got so many nicknames for him, Slicknick, Cleetus but yeah. Jesus. Did they explain what they wanted to catch him doing? No. Do you have a sense of why these people are not just so obsessed with the case?

[00:27:29] I think a lot of people are obsessed with the case but that they actually take some of that obsession in real life by doing harassment and possible surveillance on public officials.

[00:27:41] I think maybe with Angela, I think maybe she kind of has an axe to grind because of her lawsuit possibly. She expressed a lot of anger about the lawsuit over the years. Definitely. Are you worried that they'll come after you? I mean, I definitely would.

[00:28:01] I could see that as a possibility. And here's Jason Blair. We talked about him a few minutes ago. Parsons attacked him from the discord saying he should die. So I think that a normal part of life for all of us is to get feedback and to be criticized.

[00:28:19] My challenge with this group of people that you're talking about here has less to do with their theories or their ideas or their feedback. But the general cruelness that they use, you know, treating people, you know, big sample, you know, obviously asking me to die.

[00:28:40] Or saying I should die or examples where, you know, they've accused people like me and others of being complicit in the suicide of the man who's involved in the global league. I think it goes beyond normal criticism and it goes into cruelty.

[00:29:05] And it just feels as if the people who are part of this group have forgotten that they're real human beings behind every aspect of this story.

[00:29:15] And I think it doesn't just apply to those that are in the public sphere or online, but it also applies to the family, to the prosecutor, to the defense attorney.

[00:29:26] You know, no matter what any of us have done right or done wrong, we're human beings who deserve some measure, even in criticism, even in negative feedback of like love and compassion and excitement.

[00:29:41] And, you know, some of the things that I've seen as a result or I don't really want to say a result. But certainly some of the things that they've done have been attributed to real agony for people. You know, people have talked to me about going into depression.

[00:29:59] People have talked to me about extreme anxiety and, you know, one person in particular removes all their social media profiles which really disconnected her from her family. And so regardless of what good they're trying to do, you know, this is not the way they have to do it.

[00:30:23] So I view it as a choice, as a choice to be cruel.

[00:30:27] And, you know, one of the things, you know, that stands out for me is that a lot of this fullness and chaos has to also be causing agony and frustration for the family, families of Abby and Libby, and also for their loved ones.

[00:30:47] And it's just sad to me in this case that we've fallen so far away from the two little girls who died and we've fallen so far away from the grace and dignity and respect that everyone deserves.

[00:31:07] And I hope, my hope is that once this appeal of the Indiana Supreme Court is over, we can all really open a new chapter. And so my message to them inside of this criticism would be just simply it doesn't have to be this way.

[00:31:25] Like if you change your behaviors and your approach to things, you know, I, although not necessarily everyone, would be willing to, you know, break breath, and sit down at the table and hash things out, but you know, I continue to hold hope. Maybe I'm a little bit naive.

[00:31:47] But what's going on now, I just think needs to be found across the two eyes. So a number of these people have been attacking real life people. And I think it is important.

[00:32:01] I think the important thing about your episode is that if you are going to attack people and harm people, it should be done in the sunlight.

[00:32:10] That ultimately, if you want to do something, you know, that can have negative implications on someone's life and look, you know, I'm a former journalist, you guys are journalists. We're used to being criticized. This is on another level.

[00:32:25] So if you want to poke your head up and burn real people's lives, I think you should have to put your name inside it.

[00:32:32] Anything else that we didn't ask about or that you think it's important for people, you know, listening to this episode who are maybe dealing with some of this harm?

[00:32:40] I would just say that there's a community of us around here who have all sorts of different opinions on the Delphi case, but that we are compassionate and we're loving. And we you can come to us with any position, any wound, any harm.

[00:32:57] And, you know, we will be there to support you. It may not be within the broader community. It might be a therapist. It might be a friend.

[00:33:07] But I would just encourage people to reach out to, you know, our collective communities and find loving, compassionate and helpful people who can help.

[00:33:19] Again, while preparing this episode, we reached out to Manion, Szilvowsky, Parsons and O'Hare through a variety of means so that they can offer their own perspectives and thoughts on what we had shared in this episode.

[00:33:31] We understand that sometimes rhetoric gets heated or that individuals can get caught up in online drama or that people can have underlying struggles that influence their behaviors on the Internet. We wanted to give them a chance to contextualize their behaviors and words. None of them replied.

[00:33:47] So that's our disclosure. As we get into the next section of our episode, we're setting aside our personal experience with these people in the report.

[00:33:55] But again, it would be an omission not to mention that this is a group that has sought out a bizarre one-sided feud with us and plenty of others. Typically, we avoid reporting on those we don't take seriously.

[00:34:07] But in this situation, we know for a fact that at least some prominent defense-sided figures take Manion and his group quite seriously and even appear to have some measure of respect for them.

[00:34:19] For instance, Kara Weineke, one of the appellate attorneys representing Allen in the Supreme Court actions actually tweeted thanking his YouTube group for their diligent support.

[00:34:29] So we know at the very least that one of the lawyers in this case does not consider Manion and his friends to be bad actors who have done nothing but pollute this case. Now that we've introduced him and his associates, let's get back to Manion.

[00:34:42] Before he began uploading videos of himself postulating about the Delphi case, again, while wearing a deer-stalker cap, he posted about his connection to the old defense, particularly Baldwin. He penned the then defense team a long rambling letter outlining his theory of the case.

[00:34:58] The gist? He might just be a humble internet sleuth, but he had a hunch that Logan was the guilty party. He was sure of it.

[00:35:06] Notably, he even shared what he claimed was Baldwin's response to his letter via a screenshot posted in the Discord. Here's a quote from that.

[00:35:14] You are not the first person to identify this person as the actual killer, but no one has provided as much detail as you have. Again, thank you.

[00:35:24] It may end up being a dead end or it may be the type of email that flips the first domino in the direction that leads to Rick's exoneration. Either way, thank you and I look forward to talking to you soon if you're willing. Kindest regards, Andy Baldwin.

[00:35:39] Let's be clear. Baldwin and the defense team are allowed to do their own investigations. That could mean talking to people who have different kinds of theories, so we see nothing wrong with his response here.

[00:35:49] We do know of other self-proclaimed internet sleuths who reached out to Baldwin and the old defense team. We imagine that the defense team had a polite proforma response ready to go for them, just like the one Manion received.

[00:36:00] We do know that others actually had meetings or calls with members of Alan's defense team, though. In the Delphi online sleuthing space, information is not the only currency. Perception of proximity to power is very important.

[00:36:14] Most of these sleuths could not keep their mouth shut about how they got to talk to either the important defense attorneys or their investigators.

[00:36:22] The defense team was actually listening to their opinions. In my opinion, the old defense team cultivated this further unwittingly or not by doing things like citing an internet sleuth in a YouTuber in their Frank's memorandum.

[00:36:34] I personally felt those citations were unnecessary, although I understand that the intention was likely to show, hey, the Odinist theory is so inevitable, so obvious that even the sleuths got it.

[00:36:45] Still, this inclination always puzzled us somewhat, given that the old defense, through discovery, knows so much more about this case than any of these random people do.

[00:36:56] It strikes me a bit like the captain of a Boeing 777 walking out into coach, honing in on a few passengers and earnestly quizzing them to see if they have a vibe about the best route to the destination airport.

[00:37:08] But that metaphor doesn't even account for the fact that these passengers would need to also be highly online individuals who seek out attention by making stuff up and fighting with each other about airplanes and flying conditions.

[00:37:20] I believe that even inadvertently, the old defense gave internet sleuths a sense of being part of the team. And that's the case even if the old defense was simply digging through different theories and discarding much of what they heard.

[00:37:32] Perhaps unsurprisingly in the wake of all this, many of these internet cranks, most of whom already favored pro-defense narratives, very much doubled down on proclaiming Richard Allen's innocence. Some even publicly touted their alleged connection to the defense.

[00:37:49] Let's get back to what Manion has to say. We are going to read from a slightly edited version of a post he recently made on his discord.

[00:37:57] It's hilarious, like back on Reddit over the summer, Angela was noticing that R was getting upset with a person claiming to be a lawyer on Reddit, insisting they were Angela and began insulting them for some odd reason we haven't figured out yet because he eventually ended up praising her.

[00:38:16] Let's go over some terms used in that statement. The subreddit refers to a stridently pro-defense Delphi subreddit where Manion's co-host Parsons is a moderator.

[00:38:25] To be clear, this is a sub that has attracted users claiming to be lawyers, former judges, law enforcement officers and other self-proclaimed experts who seem to mostly produce highly flawed legal analysis and inaccurate predictions about what's happening next in the case.

[00:38:41] And once again, R refers to a man who is involved in the leak. We're redacting his username for privacy reasons. The person claiming to be a lawyer on Reddit is another prolific pro-defense member of that particular subreddit. This person claims to be an attorney.

[00:38:59] We have seen no direct evidence proving this person's credentials and are generally skeptical of that subreddit's vetting measures and moderation policies given the Parsons is one of the moderators.

[00:39:10] Anyways, Manion's assessment of the situation is backed up by R's public online activity on Reddit. We won't be quoting directly from that out of respect for his privacy.

[00:39:21] On September 15th, 2023, R wrote on a different better moderated subreddit, The Delphi Murders, arguing that Carroll County had resoundingly beaten Sid Laskin right in their lawsuit. He even characterized the state as generous to even allow them to settle rather than forcing them to pay all the attorneys fees.

[00:39:40] In response to yet another comment, he wrote that the failed lawsuit discredited Sledowski and Wright. So that all tracks what Manion's claims about R's tangles with Sledowski on Reddit.

[00:39:51] The day before, R had also gotten into a contentious back-and-forth of this alleged attorney accusing that user of getting facts wrong. The person claiming to be a lawyer on Reddit responded,

[00:40:03] I don't know what your issue with me is, but if you don't like my opinion, you are welcome to provide counterpoint in a civil manner. Otherwise, troll elsewhere. Thank you.

[00:40:12] R came back with a comment that he ran the user's predictions past another lawyer and that that attorney agreed they were incorrect. R also criticized the user's attitude, history of inaccuracies, and alluded to the user being covered on the murder sheet.

[00:40:28] In reference to the murder sheet is interesting. We've never mentioned this alleged lawyer until now. R seemed to be saying that the anonymous account is operated by Sledowski, whose failed lawsuit again we did cover.

[00:40:40] For reference, Sledowski and her associates are known to operate numerous burner accounts across social media sites according to people familiar with their history of bizarre online behavior.

[00:40:51] That may be why R seems to make an assumption about the alleged lawyer's identity, but we've seen no indication that this particular user is one of Sledowski's many alts.

[00:41:02] All that proves Manians claims that R blasted the alleged attorney and Sledowski online and that he even conflated the two. Here's more from Manians' statement on the matter.

[00:41:14] But we were noticing that R kind of knew some things that he shouldn't have, so we started looking into him back in August or so and we found the Facebook profile of R.

[00:41:24] It's unclear to us how Manian and his associates managed to connect the Facebook profile to the Reddit account, although it should be said that R was messaging Delphi contacts on both.

[00:41:35] So what were some of the things R should not have known? Well, we've already shared some of that information in our previous episode based on R's private communications. But what exactly was he posting publicly?

[00:41:47] On July 30th, 2023, he alluded to knowledge of the forensics in the case saying that Richard Allen's DNA was not at the scene. That's something that was alleged in the Frank's memorandum recently. It could have been a guess, but it's worth noting that it could also indicate specific knowledge.

[00:42:04] On August 31st, 2023, he wrote that Indiana State Police had a son of Oden expert help them during the investigation and they were looking into a person who had come up due to their social media posts.

[00:42:16] That sounds like he's referencing Brad Holder, one of the men named in the Frank's memorandum. This is well before the document was even released.

[00:42:25] On September 20th, 2023, R indicated that he knew that Allen had been tased in prison in Westville. That seems to indicate knowledge of the tasing incident that was later revealed by the defense team.

[00:42:36] On September 22nd, 2023, R wrote that he knew there were pictures of guards wearing Oden related patches. On October 3rd, 2023, he said that a suppression hearing would take place although he was working to find out if it would be a Frank's hearing.

[00:42:51] Now we come to the crucial part of Manion's statement. We asked the defense team if they were aware of R and they said they'd never heard of him but that some of his comments about sensitive information seemed to be happening right after rounds of depositions had occurred.

[00:43:07] They assumed some of the people who were deposed were telling him the sensitive info but we then started noticing R's Reddit account tune began to change and he was much more pro defense.

[00:43:19] If we're reading Manion's statement correctly, that his alleged contact with the defense was predicated on the squabbles with Szilawski, that would indicate that this all took place around mid-September at the earliest or early October at the latest.

[00:43:33] That would mean that the old defense team was given R's name and Facebook account before the breach became far worse. A quick search of R's Facebook friends list would have revealed his connection to Westerman.

[00:43:44] In other words, if we take Manion at his word, had the defense team listened to him, the leak could have been stopped potentially weeks if not months before the crime scene pictures leaked.

[00:43:55] This is a devastating claim and if true it would be an incredible indictment of the old defense team. Of course, the problem is that Manion is far from a credible person.

[00:44:04] That being said, he is a fan of the old defense, in the original sense of the term fan. He's a fanatic about them.

[00:44:11] This is a person who views Baldwin and Rosie as not only correct but is heroic and waging a good fight against the forces of corruption and evil in order to rescue an innocent victim. Manion has posted a screenshot of at least one previous interaction with the defense team.

[00:44:27] There's corroborating evidence to back up his statement on R's Reddit activity.

[00:44:32] Let's be clear, if Manion or his associates were in close contact with the defense, meaning they were trusted contacts and they warned the team specifically about R and received nothing but a shrug in return, that's not definitive proof of a plot to leak.

[00:44:48] But it does look pretty bad given what happened. So we took this very seriously and we did some reporting of our own. It's now fair to say we have good reason to believe that Manion was not linked closely with core members of the defense team.

[00:45:03] We hesitate to completely debunk him though. It seems possible that he sent a warning to someone he thought was connected to the defense, who turned out to be exaggerating or lying.

[00:45:14] It's possibly sent the warning and it got lost, or it was from some ridiculous sounding burner email that prompted the recipient to not take it too seriously. If that happened, then we don't necessarily think that's too damning against the old defense.

[00:45:27] You get enough emails from cranks and you start to ignore them. Or if someone wastes an hour of your life selling you an embarrassing crock, you don't spend your time on them anymore. We know that from experience. His message indicates some kind of a back and forth though.

[00:45:44] It's possible he's completely lying, partially correct or completely accurate. Without having access to his various email accounts, it's impossible to fully say for sure.

[00:45:55] It does seem worth noting that the only screenshot of a communication from Baldwin that Manion has posted is a short pro-former response that reads one step above a form letter reply. If Manion has had more contacts with Baldwin, he's never shared them.

[00:46:10] Sometimes out of nowhere, I think back on a lecture one of my history professors gave. He said we hurt the ones we love. Now the context of that depressing expression had to do with the death of Latin as a spoken everyday language.

[00:46:24] I honestly don't remember what he was getting at, something about medieval Latin scholars. But I think the sentiment is applicable here too. Manion and his ilk obviously love the old defense team. Or at least there's a weird fan worship thing going on there.

[00:46:39] I mean these people on this discord have labeled these men as the defense daddies after all. But by claiming what they've claimed, by putting the impulse to boast and brag above all else, people like Manion do harm to the old defense's case.

[00:46:54] And add to the perception that they were essentially directly colluding with the equivalent of a brain trust formed from an out of control comments section of a YouTube video with 75 views. We've said that Delphi could provide a case study for law enforcement regarding media messaging.

[00:47:09] Well, now we feel the same may go for defense attorneys in high profile cases. Giving unreputable people any sort of nod or credibility is always a mistake, even if they're posting defense friendly takes or bashing law enforcement or stalking prosecutors or organizing rallies for a defendant.

[00:47:27] The same impulse that drives them to do all that typically ensures that they will become indiscreet and embarrassing liabilities in the long run.

[00:47:34] You don't need to court the guy screaming into his camera or the woman with a thousand alts or the sleuth filming himself smirking and wearing a ridiculous hat.

[00:47:43] If someone isn't directly connected to the case and they're already showing terrible judgment in what they post or how they come across, if they say unacceptable things and post stupid conspiracy theories,

[00:47:55] then you can probably rest assured that they're not going to behave like brisk professionals and that their information is probably mostly garbage anyway. We suppose it's always possible that Manion and the others have extensive documentation of their long term contact and collaboration with the old defense team.

[00:48:12] We can't completely preclude that, but we also cannot assume that of people who cower in response to a simple request for comment when providing an explanation or a handful of screenshots would clear everything up.

[00:48:23] Having dug into this to the extent that we have, we are emerging unconvinced of any wider conspiracy on either side.

[00:48:29] Without any concrete evidence pointing to something more, we must conclude that this is a tragic mess made significantly worse and more confusing by bad faith actors, desperate to appear important on the internet.

[00:48:41] If there turns out to be more, then we will certainly be there to keep on digging. As for the sleuths around Delphi, we should say here again that most are okay. It's a large community. Many people within it are absolutely fine.

[00:48:54] There's a lot of disagreement and inviting and backstabbing and nonsense, but few take it to the level of alarming behavior that Manion, Szydlowski, Parsons and O'Hare have exhibited.

[00:49:05] That being said, there could be some other exceptions out there. We have a few more angles that we're pursuing on this because we feel we owe it to those who truly care about this case to expose heinous behavior when we see it.

[00:49:17] So if you have tips on this or other unacceptable behavior associated with the online community around the Delphi murder case, please contact us at murdersheetatgmail.com.

[00:49:28] Thanks so much for listening to the Murder Sheet. If you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover, please email us at murdersheetatgmail.com. If you have actionable information about an unsolved crime, please report it to the appropriate authorities.

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[00:50:12] Special thanks to Kevin Tyler Greenlee who composed the music for the Murder Sheet and who you can find on the web at kevintg.com. If you're looking to talk with other listeners about a case we've covered, you can join the Murder Sheet Discussion Group on Facebook.

[00:50:30] We mostly focus our time on research and reporting so we're not on social media much. We do try to check our email account but we ask for patience as we often receive a lot of messages. Thanks again for listening.