The Delphi Murders: Two Hearings: The Aftermath

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[00:02:22] slash investing in America. Content warning, this episode includes discussion of the murder of two

[00:02:31] girls. Yesterday we covered the two most recent hearing that both occurred on the same day

[00:02:38] in the Delphi case, which of course is the case against Richard Allen. A man charged with murdering

[00:02:44] Abigail Williams and Liberty, German. So these were two major hearings. There's a lot to cover. We

[00:02:50] covered them in a preliminary fashion last night. But today we wanted to take the opportunity

[00:02:56] to essentially go through our notebooks and share with you everything we didn't really hit upon

[00:03:03] last night. And also since last night we've gotten some questions about why didn't you mention this

[00:03:08] or what about that or how dare you not know who race horse Haynes is. So we are going to cover some

[00:03:15] of that as well. My name is Anya Kane. I'm a journalist and I'm Kevin Greenley. I'm an attorney.

[00:03:24] We first connected while looking into the Bergerchef murders in Indiana cold case. Together,

[00:03:30] we built a spreadsheet documenting hundreds of cases of restaurant-related homicides.

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[00:04:07] reporting, thoughtful analysis, thorough research and in-depth interviews. Where the murder sheet?

[00:04:15] And this is The Delphi Murders. Two hearings. Be after-mac.

[00:05:00] One. One. One. One. One.

[00:05:07] Before we even get to the hearings, I think it's important to know there is as we mentioned,

[00:05:13] Anya and I were actually at this courthouse from 5.30 to 5.30 in the morning to 6 p.m. at night

[00:05:21] and then we sped home to record the episode. Because of the rules of that courthouse,

[00:05:28] we were not permitted to have any phones or electronic devices. So actually during the day when

[00:05:35] we were there kind of cut off from the world, there were some filings in the case. I just want

[00:05:41] to mention a couple of points from some of them very, very briefly before we get into the hearings,

[00:05:48] themselves once again. There was a filing of the state responded to defendant's motion to compel

[00:05:56] an request for sanctions. What jumped out at me from this is prosecutor McLean made some

[00:06:06] interesting comments about Professor Turko. Professor Turko is probably all very tired of hearing

[00:06:14] this is the producer professor who made some sort of report as to whether or not the sticks

[00:06:21] at the crime scene represented, represented signs of oldenism run amok.

[00:06:28] The defense has consistently maintained the Turko supports their position and that the prosecution

[00:06:35] has tried to hide this from them. They've said that Lieutenant Jerry Holman of the Indiana state

[00:06:42] police lied in a summary report he made about an interview with Turko because again the assumption

[00:06:49] is they're trying to hide Professor Turko's real actual opinions about all of this. The state

[00:06:56] in short is trying to suggest that Turko did not endorse the idea of oldenism and the defense

[00:07:03] is saying well actually he did. So what did prosecutor Nick McLean say about all of this? I'm going

[00:07:11] to quote the interpretation of his report is offered debate amongst the parties and Professor Turko

[00:07:18] himself states that the defense has mischaracterized his opinion. If the defense would speak directly

[00:07:27] to Professor Turko as the state has they would now Professor Turko's opinion is not consistent with

[00:07:33] characterization. So translation McLean is very clearly saying that what the defense has been saying

[00:07:43] about the positions of Professor Turko is inaccurate. That is a very forceful statement. I think

[00:07:54] it would be hard for any of us to really fairly analyze this until we hear directly from Professor

[00:07:59] Turko himself because obviously both sides are going to be saying he's on our side. He's on our side

[00:08:04] but I will say this if it comes out that the defense has been hammering this Professor Turko

[00:08:12] thing into the ground and he feels that they've been mischaracterizing what he said then that looks

[00:08:20] awful for them. That is ridiculous. I don't know why you would do that and basically put so much weight

[00:08:27] on such an unsound structure without talking to the guy and making sure you're in walkstop. I

[00:08:34] don't understand that. Again, that would just be like trashing your credibility for something

[00:08:39] that's inevitably going to come out and why would you do that? That's why I think probably to take

[00:08:46] a nuanced position in the middle. My guess is that Professor Turko, Professor Jeffrey Turko being

[00:08:53] an academic, if you've spoken to academics, they're very intelligent people. They're very

[00:08:59] they don't want to say the wrong thing. This is their expertise. They spend their lives studying

[00:09:03] these subjects and oftentimes I know when I'm I mean I was a history major when you're talking

[00:09:08] to academic historians, they often hedge. They might hedge a bit. They don't if they don't completely

[00:09:14] know something. They're not the kind of people who are going to be like yeah that's totally the

[00:09:18] they might say well this could be this could be that and my feeling is that he probably gave

[00:09:23] a nuance and informative statement to to whoever and both sides were able to have some footholds

[00:09:30] in it and say this corresponds with our theory. Therefore he's on our side and I think that's fine.

[00:09:37] I think like they can maybe both use that then. I think where it becomes a problem is if he really

[00:09:44] didn't go all in on the odinous thing then it makes the defense look like they've been the ones hiding

[00:09:49] the ball. They've been the ones mischaracterizing him and they've been the ones basically using this

[00:09:54] in a way that to bolster their point when it doesn't and I think that that's basically what they're

[00:09:59] accusing the state of doing so that would look terrible. If that's the case, I don't know. I don't

[00:10:05] think we can base our conclusions just on what the prosecution is saying but this is the I mean

[00:10:10] I was a little bit when the defense put out their recap of things that Turko said they only

[00:10:17] seemed to be using two specific quotations and or just like a very small number of words that

[00:10:25] Turko said during that talk and that sort of raised my hackles a bit because I would think if

[00:10:32] there had been a lot more that was really good for them they would have included all that to really

[00:10:36] show people hey here's what he said he was totally back and us up and so if they've been

[00:10:41] cherry picking themselves then I guess it just it's another thing it's it just undermines

[00:10:47] the public credibility and that's that's concerning. So I think we'll be very interested to see

[00:10:53] what Turko himself has to say and also I guess it's interesting that they maybe haven't talked to him

[00:11:00] again because I would think that they were like really planning to use this a lot they would have

[00:11:05] interviewed him a second or you know they could get him in there and you know kind of make something

[00:11:10] out of this that's just my dig. So the other filing which I wanted to very briefly discuss is a

[00:11:17] motion for parity and resources one thing that's defense team has consistently done is they try

[00:11:26] to find as many ways as possible to argue for what they want they tried many different routes

[00:11:34] and so in here in this document they're saying well we know we have a gotten paid as we should

[00:11:38] be getting paid but the bulk of this is they're criticizing and they're unhappy that the judge

[00:11:46] has not approved their request for funding for specific experts and they're saying well this

[00:11:53] isn't fair because the state has experts and we don't so what can be done well one thing that could

[00:11:59] be done they said is we can just exclude from the trial all talk of ballistics or the confessions

[00:12:06] or we can make Nick McLean start paying for his experts or you can just start giving us my pay

[00:12:13] for the experts we want so I wanted to highlight that these are issues they were discussing and then

[00:12:20] I wanted also to briefly mention something from here that we will stick a pin in and we'll talk a

[00:12:26] bit more about later in this episode they mentioned all the members of the defense team and one

[00:12:34] of the members of the defense team is a gentleman named Brian Alvy he came up in the hearing yesterday

[00:12:40] and we will discuss that in a few minutes so this is this is kind of I mean to me if they're

[00:12:47] they're the public defenders on this they should be getting paid for their labor they should be

[00:12:52] being compensated I don't know why there have been so many issues with paying them you know some

[00:12:57] people love the defense attorney some people don't like them I don't really care how you feel about

[00:13:01] them they're the defense attorneys on this they need to get paid I don't know what the issue with

[00:13:06] funding their experts are I know the judge has some say and like they can't bring in like a psychic

[00:13:13] to say I don't feel the bullet came from Richie Allen's gun so I don't I but I'm sure they're not

[00:13:18] doing something like that where it's like totally disrupt people people so I don't know what the

[00:13:23] issues are there but it feels like I'd like to take them all like to vigorously agree with what you're

[00:13:28] saying people deserve to be paid for their work yes and on in a timely fashion I mean at the end of

[00:13:35] the day public defense is incredibly important work and if you're not paying people in a timely manner

[00:13:41] you know you can be harming their business both these men there are typically you know standard

[00:13:46] private criminal defense lawyers they have their they have their firms they are um

[00:13:51] they're both facing I would imagine pretty steep opportunity costs at the same time as you know

[00:13:57] being paid what I imagined is like less than their normal rate maybe even substantially less than

[00:14:02] their normal rate by the state so I don't again I don't see what the issue is here I mean I know that

[00:14:08] there probably was stuff that got delayed and whatnot when they were kicked off the case but at

[00:14:14] this point they're back on the case they should be paid mysteries are at the heart of everything

[00:14:19] we do here on the murder sheet but sometimes it's more fun to dive into a fictional

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[00:16:25] so with that said why don't we die in where do you want to begin we we've made a list of topics

[00:16:31] we want to cover what do you want to start on yet do you want to hit the track with uh with the

[00:16:35] old resource that's such a great name we were both fascinated by that so um when yeah when a turnie

[00:16:43] borin sort of took the stand you talked about like studying with like different attorneys and

[00:16:48] then you mentioned a race horse hands and I find that name delightful I find that name out of

[00:16:56] a dam in the run yeah it is out of the dam in the man and so I said one of the highlights of the day

[00:17:02] and so people are outraged that I did not know who race horse Haynes was and frankly I deserve

[00:17:10] that out I agree I I should be hard and feathered locked in the stocks tortured whatever you want the

[00:17:20] harshest criticism that has ever been leveled against any human being deserves to be leveled

[00:17:24] against me on this point because he is a very distinguished attorney and he also figures in uh

[00:17:32] frankly an excellent true crime book that I will try to pitch to Anya to cover in our book club

[00:17:39] this is a book called Blood and Money and friends in that deponent say it not because I don't want to

[00:17:44] have any spoilers for that book but this man has a very distinguished career I've actually read blood

[00:17:51] and money and enjoyed it many years ago somehow I let the name race horse Haynes slip suit my mind

[00:17:57] how how so I vigorously uh apologize and admit my my ignorance and forgetting about the

[00:18:08] proud legacy of race horse Haynes I want to add the Mr. Bourne just I I logged his testimonial Mr.

[00:18:15] Bourne was the man that brought up race horse Haynes he was a man who brought up race horse Haynes

[00:18:19] he spoke about you know for the defense here's why maybe this doesn't rise to contempt he and

[00:18:24] the other attorneys brought out to do that all did a great job I thought that one thing that he

[00:18:30] said that hey I'm like wow like this is I mean just incredible Indiana true crime nerd history

[00:18:37] so he apparently tried the Stephen Judy case and this is a very disturbing case I'm familiar with

[00:18:44] it because it came up in relation to Bergerchef murders which you know Kevin and I covered

[00:18:48] and some people feel that Stephen Judy must have been the one to do it because essentially

[00:18:53] the case he's known for is incredibly horrifically brutal like horrific and the feeling is he's a

[00:18:59] brutal man must have done Bergerchef I don't agree with that at all because I think the crimes

[00:19:03] look very different but just to give you all a sense I mean this was a huge deal in Indiana at

[00:19:08] the time he was executed I think he was one of the and he was at the tail end of like executions that

[00:19:15] happened um you know in the 70s I mean they think there were more recent executions as well so I

[00:19:19] don't mean to say that it stopped entirely but it was it was a really big deal this is a man who

[00:19:26] Stephen Judy abducted a young woman and her children um raped and murdered the mother

[00:19:33] and threw the children into a creek where they drowned these were small children and when he was

[00:19:40] arrested and confronted with killing these kids he said essentially well I'm paraphrasing but

[00:19:46] let's not my fault they couldn't swim so this is a man who was incredibly brutal again big deal in

[00:19:52] Indiana this case and to hear from an attorney who is so distinguished and like you know has such

[00:19:59] a likely career that he actually had a part in that case which was fascinating so I thought that

[00:20:04] was kind of cool it's very disturbing case but just kind of an interesting thing like did not

[00:20:09] expect that to come up yesterday and uh born said something else which kind of sideways rather

[00:20:14] nicely into the next thing we want to discuss uh mr. born said it's very important of course for

[00:20:21] lawyers to consult with other lawyers about how they do with their cases but that he went on to

[00:20:28] elaborate that he's been say that actually it's even more important for lawyers to talk

[00:20:33] with non lawyers because people who are not lawyers have different perspectives things hit them

[00:20:38] in different ways and that can help you better formulate how you communicate with a jury

[00:20:44] and so this leads into our next point because there've been some questions uh why didn't we talk

[00:20:50] more about the testimony that Todd click offered pertaining to feminism and I admit that as uh

[00:21:00] as an attorney I look at things through that framework and so I look at the click testimony

[00:21:06] and I think this is something that's going to be interesting and perhaps important out of trial

[00:21:12] but if this hearing the point of this hearing was to try to establish one particular point

[00:21:19] and that point is what did law enforcement know about Brad Boulder slash Odinism in 2017

[00:21:28] and Clitz testimony was not the least bit relevant to that point it may be relevant to other points

[00:21:36] that was made be considered a trial he could potentially be an incredibly important witness

[00:21:41] out of the trial but if this hearing yesterday he did not have any testimony to offer there was

[00:21:48] on point on the limited point they wanted to cover yesterday and so because of that my assumption

[00:21:54] was well this testimony therefore isn't important to this hearing and so we didn't cover it extensively

[00:22:04] if you want to know more about what Mr. Clitz said it was very very similar to what was written

[00:22:11] in the Franks Memoranda which I assume most of you have read and I think some of the interest

[00:22:18] in officer Clitz comments springs from comments made about Clitz testimony by a gentleman named Bob

[00:22:29] Mata who has a YouTube channel he reported that Click indicated that a man named Johnny Messer had

[00:22:39] some sort of recording on his phone which depicted Messer kidnapping a girl and the implication was

[00:22:47] oh look he kidnapped a girl the crime it in the crime under consideration here is the kidnapping

[00:22:54] of two girls so these would seem to be very very similar crimes and so why isn't the talk about

[00:23:04] Johnny Messer having a recording of him kidnapping a girl getting much discussion and the simple

[00:23:12] reason is there is no recording of Johnny Messer kidnapping a girl we've had our beef with Mr. Mata

[00:23:22] and how he runs his program and how accurate his program is certainly at one point he had David

[00:23:29] Hennessy on the show where a ridiculous lie about me was repeated for some reason but in this case

[00:23:37] let's be generous and let us assume that Mr. Mata simply missed her thing which let me say it was

[00:23:45] really hard to hear a lot of this you know when people are you know and listen this isn't Clicksfall

[00:23:50] this isn't this is not playing Mr. Plitt but you know and it court house is not always like set up

[00:23:57] like a stage where the acoustics are great and you can kind of hear everything sometimes it's possible

[00:24:02] for things to get garbled and then telephone and then maybe kind of put your own assumptions on it

[00:24:07] and you know I think I'd rather be you know I'd rather show grace on this because I do think it is

[00:24:13] very possible and honestly this is why I feel it's so important for cameras to be allowed in the court

[00:24:18] room I don't think that's going to happen at this point because there's been too much you know people

[00:24:23] are fighting in the court house there's been leaks like I don't think I think we've lost the camera

[00:24:27] as I think that was possible for a time maybe now it's not but I wish I wish we could have cameras

[00:24:33] in the court rooms even for some of these pre-trial hearings because then we could have perhaps

[00:24:38] less confusion on points like this and if a creator made a mistake people people could quickly

[00:24:43] see for themselves and say oh he didn't quite say that here's what he really said so if you're under

[00:24:48] the impression that the media and other podcasters are covering up to supposedly bombshell

[00:24:54] revelation about a recording of a potential suspect in this case actually committing a similar

[00:25:01] crime be advised that there were no such bombshell revelations that was not what click was talking

[00:25:07] about can you tell us what click was talking so there was a kidnapping discussed and yeah I mean

[00:25:12] certainly when you're talking about a kidnapping that's violent act what what click mentioned was

[00:25:18] back in 2018 there was a raid on the residence that Donnie Messer shared with his girlfriend at

[00:25:27] the time Taylor born a day and her phone ended up being seized or you know basically a phone

[00:25:35] that had a recording on it of Messer and another man named Eric Basham Eric Basham abducting

[00:25:45] a man after a methamphetamine deal gone wrong so what happened was Basham and Messer drive up to

[00:25:54] the Indianapolis area for this meth deal they get ripped off then they go find the guy who arranged

[00:26:02] the deal they abduct him at gunpoint the point of gun in him and they're driving around

[00:26:10] essentially until they find methamphetamine to make up for the deal so it's a drug deal gone wrong

[00:26:18] resulting in an abduction which did not lead to a murder which did not lead to a murder in this

[00:26:23] case for to know so a drug deal gone bad leading to a kidnapping is very very very dissimilar

[00:26:32] from the crime that we're considering here the murder of Blue Beach German and Abbey Williams

[00:26:39] so you can take this as evident the meeting mr. Messer is not a good guy a meeting mr.

[00:26:45] Messer has problem also I mean let's let's say this you can do something you can do something that's

[00:26:50] rubber related violence and you can do something that's violence towards children or more section

[00:26:55] motivated violence it's not like you can't do both but i also think it's important to say it's

[00:27:00] also they also are very different so i don't think you should necessarily conflate being a bad guy

[00:27:06] or being involved in drugs with doing that at the same time that's not evidence to me it's more

[00:27:12] compelling when someone is accused of something that very much falls in line with the main crime

[00:27:19] in question if there was abduction of a children in order to sexually assault them or something

[00:27:26] that nature or you know it's some sort of child molestation going on that might be something

[00:27:31] to look at closely i think a sort of a business transaction in the drug world that leads to violence

[00:27:40] to me just looks very different than what happened to Abbey and Libby Abbey and Libby were not

[00:27:47] you know tilling math i mean that it just it doesn't it doesn't fit and it's it's very unfortunate

[00:27:54] because of the lack of cameras we do get into a game of telephone where people kind of go put

[00:28:00] something out there and then suddenly everyone's inflamed how could people not be talking about this

[00:28:07] and yeah we're seeing lots of comments why didn't we talk about this bombshell why is in the mainstream

[00:28:12] media covering this bombshell and this bombshell simply didn't exist and again we're choosing

[00:28:18] to believe that mr mod is simply misheard something very easy to happen in that courtroom

[00:28:25] so we just want to jump in as quickly as we can and try to cut off this rumor before it spreads

[00:28:32] even further and and to be clear i think what Kevin said earlier bears repeating i think you know

[00:28:39] as a a formal law enforcement officer with background and some experience with this investigation

[00:28:44] Todd click is going to be a credible voice for the defense if if this you know continues to be

[00:28:48] throughout their going on he's somebody who put in a lot of work and obviously cares a lot about

[00:28:53] the case uh he he felt very strongly that uh it has to be the odonis theory and he's gonna

[00:29:00] he's got to potentially advocate for that and trap that could be very important the jury could

[00:29:04] find him persuasive we didn't really get to hear like that much from him because essentially

[00:29:09] ultimately what he was saying was not relevant to the hearing but i thought he he seemed to do it

[00:29:14] decent job on the stand he seemed he seemed like a credible guy and so i think it's not to dismiss him

[00:29:20] or his story or his importance but it is to say that you know like not not everything is going to be

[00:29:29] right for every hearing and i i will stand by the criticism that you know bringing him out like this

[00:29:35] and kind of maybe putting their theory out there to the extent that they are could give the

[00:29:42] prosecution more time to take it apart better and i i kind of do feel like elements of the odonis

[00:29:48] theory would be really compelling to a jury but that might be less of the case if the prosecution

[00:29:56] has effective pushback techniques that they can hone over time from hearing about this again and

[00:30:01] again and again does that make sense like that makes sense i i feel like uh some of this would

[00:30:06] be like great shock and awe for the jury like whoa it was a conspiracy let you know we got to

[00:30:12] we got to acquit him but if the prosecution is able to effectively dismantle that then

[00:30:19] then maybe some of this looks like an error in retrospect

[00:30:24] yes so uh there was another thing that on you picked up on and tied clicks testimony

[00:30:31] that's a little bit more personal maybe a little silly will let you decide it was something

[00:30:36] that completely flew over my hand at the time what was it yes when click was speaking he mentioned

[00:30:42] an investigator for the criminal defense team and i immediately recognized the name because recently

[00:30:51] there was a guy the name was bright and healthy bright out and recently there was a guy on

[00:30:56] facebook with the same name who tried to send a friend request to kevin and i we have a we

[00:31:03] have a professional account to like kind of like be in more of like our our own facebook group

[00:31:09] and then we have personal accounts and it was kind of funny because this person's friend

[00:31:14] at all three at once so it was kind of noticeable we were like who is this guy

[00:31:18] and it's interesting uh that a defense investigator is trying to become our friend on facebook

[00:31:26] especially since at this hearing as we mentioned we were a bit of a focus they were obviously trying

[00:31:32] to talk about oh how did kevin and i need to give this document or this document to try to figure out

[00:31:36] who our sources were i i couldn't certainly tell you that we we've been friends in the past with

[00:31:44] other recorders and sometimes on their facebook pages their facebook friends with some of their sources

[00:31:51] that's a mistake don't do that yeah that's pretty that's pretty sloppy so well i mean in fairness it's

[00:31:57] like if it's one of those things where they were sourced for years and then you don't really

[00:32:00] report on that beat anymore it's not really sloppy but it's definitely one of those things where

[00:32:05] we just try to be really careful we really try to exercise like the you know the confidentiality

[00:32:11] hygiene that you're supposed to as a journalist so i think it's plows also this is a week ago

[00:32:16] as was recently this guy tried to friend this recently right before this hearing where our sources

[00:32:21] are a source of contention for them at a hearing so it is plausible that during this this time

[00:32:28] where they're rushing around trying to get ready for a speedy trial they are spending time and

[00:32:33] energy trying to investigate us and learn who our sources are or what else is possible he might

[00:32:40] we might have come up as uh as you know suggested friends and he was like oh cool i listened to

[00:32:47] them occasionally and hit friend it's also possible that i'm not gonna listen without without

[00:32:53] knowing the guy and without knowing what's going on here i'm not necessarily going to assume

[00:32:58] that there was any weird intent with that so i'm gonna assume it was chill you yourself have a

[00:33:04] habit of of friending random um you know actors from like television history from like shows you

[00:33:12] like from the past from the past and also i mean to me the most impressive let me say first

[00:33:19] yes i happen to have known in real life some old time television writers and so i was friends with

[00:33:24] them on facebook and then it would just start suggesting to meet people that they knew and so i

[00:33:30] would just say i'll share a friend this person and then the more of those requests that you sent

[00:33:36] out the get actually accepted then you start getting suggestions for friends of those people and

[00:33:42] those people may not recognize your name but they may say oh this person certainly has a lot of

[00:33:46] friends that i know and so i ended up getting friends with a lot of old time actors and writers

[00:33:55] and producers so you essentially socially engineered yourself into being a Hollywood insider

[00:34:00] that's what happened yes i have my finger on the pulse of the Hollywood TV scene of the 1970s

[00:34:07] okay the coolest one in my opinion so was the guy who played one of our show we both love is

[00:34:16] the just often absolutely unhinged television series that was Kojak starring Teletubba

[00:34:24] about a smooth talking detective in New York City in the 70s New York City looks like it's coming

[00:34:32] unglued he's smooth talking just everyone loves them and there's one guy who's and is it he's a side

[00:34:40] character he's a detective on that also named detective crocker that's the characters named not the

[00:34:44] actors name actors name of course i don't know Kevin dobson okay another Kevin so the so you

[00:34:51] friend in him i love this character because he's just like uncontact like he's like barely contained

[00:34:57] rage all the time but he's keeping it you know keeping it calm but you can tell he's really pissed off

[00:35:02] and i just his characters really funny to me and i was very impressed that you you snagged him

[00:35:08] on your friend list and unfortunately he's he's since disease but so this may be a case of

[00:35:12] mr alve just randomly friending people already sending him like the podcast yeah a week before the

[00:35:18] hearing i think i'm going to be discussed i think you're more suspicious as i'm really like yeah

[00:35:24] also yeah that would be barking of the wrong tree because we're definitely not uh we're definitely

[00:35:28] pretty buttoned up on social media i would say yeah and if if my suspicions are true and they're

[00:35:36] using their precious time to try to investigate us that's a really stupid use of their resources

[00:35:42] that is it's yeah it actually reminds me we've been in a situation where a police agency

[00:35:46] tried to figure out who our sources were one time and it was like they didn't succeed nice try

[00:35:52] like there were traps set i'm not kidding there were traps set to to to like hunt down

[00:35:58] and it did not work because we were very careful we take that very seriously we don't

[00:36:03] we don't mess around and by trap set that that's a bit melodramatic that is let me explain

[00:36:09] let me let me explain they were coming out with a big butterfly nut no i'm seeing

[00:36:13] what you do in that case is you say okay there's a piece of information that the murder sheet has

[00:36:20] maybe six other people in real life in our agency had this information so they had to the

[00:36:27] murder sheet had to get that information from one to six people so then what you do is you

[00:36:33] mentioned another big upcoming event but you know the murder sheet we'd want to know about

[00:36:37] and you tell each of those persons a slightly different detail about it maybe you tell one person

[00:36:43] this event's gonna happen on Monday the next person you say it's gonna happen on Tuesday the third

[00:36:47] person you say Wednesday and so on so then if the murder sheet calls you or if the murder

[00:36:52] sheet then reports oh this big event is going to happen on Monday then you've basically succeeded

[00:36:58] in outing the source and so that's what they tried to do it's uh it's called a canary trap

[00:37:05] so it's called that's that's what that is what you do that so

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[00:38:42] you for tickets visit sleeping dogs movie dot com slash wundery that's sleeping dogs movie dot com

[00:38:49] slash wundery so there's a few other odds and ends we wanted to mention I think there was something

[00:38:57] else you want to highlight from the testimony of Brad Rosie yeah this was a little bit odd uh so

[00:39:04] and I don't this like listen like I mean this happened a while ago I understand that you know people

[00:39:10] people are speaking potentially somewhat off the cuff but I thought it was a little bit odd and

[00:39:15] wanted to highlight it so in the discussion let's let's go back in time let's talk about the letter

[00:39:22] that Brad Rosie filed with a court it was he explained from his perspective how the revelation but

[00:39:29] Mitch western and leaking discovering materials went down he described

[00:39:35] western and going to Baldwin and confessing saying I I did this then Baldwin wrote Rosie an email

[00:39:45] Rosie at that time he he's involved with the school board and his district and he was there and then

[00:39:53] he went home I'm assuming spent time with his family you know when you're when you're off the

[00:39:57] clock maybe you're not checking your email he didn't get that email Kevin and I at the time

[00:40:02] commented when that letter came out that it seemed really odd that Baldwin didn't like call and leave

[00:40:06] a bunch of messages if he did that was not mentioned in Rosie's letter but when something about

[00:40:11] significance happens one would think that you would be urgently trying to reach your partner to

[00:40:16] let them know that fallout is coming so but then again maybe maybe you're in a panic or maybe

[00:40:23] you're kind of just like depressed to hear what happens so like Rosie didn't really get that

[00:40:28] information until the next day essentially when he checks his email and then they go to

[00:40:34] McLeanland and then the judge together so that's his initial explanation on the stand a number of times

[00:40:42] he said something to the effect of I you know I got this the same day as as Baldwin got it

[00:40:50] and I think I understand what he was trying to say which is basically like Baldwin passed it on to

[00:40:55] me but the reality is he didn't see it until the next day and therefore that's when the action

[00:41:01] happened so again I think he was kind of I don't think he I don't think this is why I don't think

[00:41:07] this was a necessarily a de-temptive deception I just think it was kind of cleverly phrased because

[00:41:15] he didn't really get it because it was sent in an email and he didn't check his email for a while

[00:41:20] so there were like hours and hours and hours when Baldwin was aware of something that Rosie seemingly

[00:41:28] yes there was a substantial period of time maybe 12 hours or around 12 hours where Baldwin and

[00:41:37] Westerman were the only people aware of this information and like I think that Rosie is very much

[00:41:43] standing by Baldwin I think he has I think he could have probably gone in a different direction

[00:41:49] and sort of thrown Baldwin under the bus and essentially said listen I don't know this guy

[00:41:54] this is now my office I wasn't the one who sent the email you know I'm not to blame in any of this

[00:41:59] instead he really has stuck by Baldwin and they seem to have you know that kind of professional

[00:42:06] bond so I don't think he's going to throw him over but I do feel like that was sort of you know

[00:42:12] said in a way to maybe mitigate some of the fallout for Baldwin so I think that does speak to

[00:42:17] them actually being in sync and being you know kind of committed to the partnership so that's

[00:42:23] something I noted so there was also some feedback that people felt we used the term youtubers as

[00:42:32] a pre-jorative insult in my book no so yeah I mean that's fair I think to me like YouTube has become

[00:42:42] synonymous with me for just a really toxic environment around this case I think I kind of tend to

[00:42:49] view it as a result is sort of a swamp filled with sinister characters frankly and I don't think

[00:42:55] I'm entirely wrong I should note that there are some youtubers who cover this that I think are

[00:43:00] very nice people and do a good job and try their best and just you know I when I say youtubers

[00:43:06] I really don't mean all youtubers there is a type of telephys YouTuber that I think is very I

[00:43:12] easily identifiable that is totally unhinged and just does those are things all the time that are

[00:43:18] detrimental to the case but many do not fit that mold and I have no issue with them and I

[00:43:25] wanted to highlight this on a personal level I met I'm not familiar with his channel but there

[00:43:32] is a gentleman named Frank Meister who attends I believe every single hearing he always behaves very

[00:43:41] respectfully with proper decorum compassion he's always a gentleman always friendly to anyone

[00:43:50] who approaches him yeah there are youtubers who behave like that he behaves like else he brings

[00:43:56] very positive energy to his work I feel and kind of comes into things respectfully and I always

[00:44:03] appreciate chatting to him at these hearings because I just feel like he's like I think a lot of

[00:44:08] I mean behind the scenes we talked to we talked to reporters and a lot of people are honestly very

[00:44:14] concerned about the impact of social media and impact of YouTube and what that's going to be like

[00:44:19] on this case and I just wish that everybody would act like Frank Meister at these things because he

[00:44:24] really he's just he's so respectful and just like a very nice guy like I really like Frank

[00:44:29] and I I don't know I just feel like many do not I think probably most the youtubers are fine

[00:44:37] and like there's other ones that we like so we're not going to just name everybody but like I he's

[00:44:41] just a good example because we just talked to them the other day yeah we just yeah exactly the

[00:44:45] hearing so I feel like though I will say people are concerned reporters are concerned a number of

[00:44:52] reporters separately I've said what happens if one of these guys just stands up in the middle of

[00:44:57] the trial and starts screaming in front of the jury you know look there could be literally a

[00:45:02] mistrial over this and what I could happen that could very easily happen we just had a Rick

[00:45:08] Snai and another man get into a physical altercation other man it's been named Nilly Ray was

[00:45:15] made me at noy Ray was formerly incarcerated in some fashion with Kagan Kloughney at Miami County

[00:45:21] and and so they've been threatening one another over social media for some time and then they never

[00:45:27] have been able to be gotten to a fight at this thing and it's it's like if this happens a trial

[00:45:32] it can actually have like a huge implication on the case and what I would would hope would happen

[00:45:38] and I don't know that this is going to happen and frankly I've been disappointed to a certain extent

[00:45:43] by judge goals lack of media strategy on some of this but I would hope that there would be press

[00:45:52] passes given to repeatable outlets you know maybe outlets could apply for them and get two or three

[00:45:59] press passes and that there would be designated media seating and that there would be overflow

[00:46:05] seating for members of the public this is a very cramped courthouse very cramped courtroom in

[00:46:12] Carroll County there's not going to be a lot of room I think they need to be very intentional

[00:46:16] about who is allowed in there you do not want to get people who are flying in from out of state or

[00:46:21] out of country who think that you know they can have there you know few moments of attention

[00:46:27] from from the world by disrupting a case you don't want that you don't want to incentivize that so

[00:46:33] I think you really need to be intentional about how you approach this because you know we're in an

[00:46:37] internet age people doing bad things in a case like this makes people feel important like maybe

[00:46:44] they justify it to themselves because I think they're doing the right thing but I think there's an

[00:46:49] element of like people want to be infamous and I don't I think that if you just kind of keep

[00:46:56] at this thing where you're sort of lumping in the traditional media that's covering this

[00:47:02] responsibly with everybody else you could kind of get into a crazy situation easily

[00:47:08] and Rick's name came very close to having a moment in the sun you came very close to having a

[00:47:14] moment what he would be called upon to testify at a hearing and I think that's something

[00:47:21] he looked forward to for a reason I certainly I mean I would not look forward to that but he I

[00:47:26] believe he looked forward to that and that is his right and he lost that opportunity because

[00:47:34] he let his temper get the best of him and some people are saying you know maybe he was go with it

[00:47:41] but if he was going it I'm not making any statements whether he was going or not but if he was

[00:47:47] going it the person going him want because whatever Rick's name he by participating in this scuffle

[00:47:58] he lost something that was important he lost a chance to tell his story I feel like adults should

[00:48:04] never lay hands on other adults in a professional setting or other chess want each other for chess

[00:48:09] well yeah this should be no physical contact I don't think there should be screaming matches

[00:48:13] I think if someone is trying to start something with you you walk away maybe report that to security

[00:48:18] saying they're trying to get into something unconcerned or you know you don't let them know exactly

[00:48:23] you know what buttons to push to yeah yeah this is some advice I give to freely to Mr. Snerd

[00:48:28] or anyone else who cares to listen to it that if someone succeeds in finding a sore spot if someone

[00:48:36] succeeds in finding this is a subject I can address to really make this other person angry don't

[00:48:43] let them know that don't let them be given that victory because if they know oh now here's a way

[00:48:51] to attack this person and get a strong reaction that means that information is going to get out

[00:48:58] there and everybody and their mother is going to start attacking you in that area in order to get

[00:49:06] a strong reaction just act like it doesn't bother you I admit this is why I have really

[00:49:14] studiously avoided the bleeding in the heat of my enemies know that the way to really get my

[00:49:20] goat and make me furious is to talk at length about how handsome and charming I am

[00:49:28] Kevin now they're gonna swerve you at the next one you look lovely did Mr. Kareen Lee

[00:49:34] can the Hulk's out um I don't think I hate words and be compared favorably to Carrie Gray

[00:49:42] I mean it's all joping aside we have to remember members of the public coming into this I think

[00:49:49] most people youtubers members of public are fine they're here because they're interested

[00:49:54] and there's no issue with them a lot of them are very nice I enjoy talking to them while we're

[00:49:58] waiting outside so that's fine but I think people people do need to kind of come into this with

[00:50:05] risk-affirmance and a recognition that it's not about all of us in the audience it really should

[00:50:10] be about the case and Richard Allen and the girls and their families and like anything that's

[00:50:16] rising to the level of we're getting enough this fight you know is not worth it and it's not

[00:50:23] appropriate and in people who do that should be banned they should not be back I mean because if

[00:50:28] you're not able to keep it together for something as serious as this then you don't belong in

[00:50:33] this space you just don't because like you don't have the impulse control and I'm I mean it's a

[00:50:39] shame that it happened but I do hope it leads to some tighter um security perhaps or some you know

[00:50:47] maybe tighter regulations about what what's gonna happen going forward or at least some recognition

[00:50:52] of like we need to keep a lid on stuff like this because you don't want some YouTube feud

[00:50:58] to break out in violence in the middle of a you know the key ring evolving the death of two

[00:51:04] pearls yeah it's not I'm like actually like every time we go to this I look forward to the hearing

[00:51:11] and it's gonna be interesting but I also have a lot of dread because I am as as just somebody who

[00:51:17] attends these things I am sometimes scared of being you know a victim of violence we're being

[00:51:25] caught up in violence that occurs at these things and like it shouldn't be like that but that

[00:51:31] how that is how it is and other people have made similar comments that we're scared because some

[00:51:37] people cannot keep it together and that is not okay like I can't stress enough how not okay that

[00:51:43] is that people are actually like somebody might just come over and punch me like like that is

[00:51:48] but that is the environment at some of these things and it's not good

[00:51:53] and again when Mr. Snae lost his temper that meant that whatever testimony he was prepared to

[00:52:00] offer was also lost I don't know what that testimony was I there was some hints there's going to be

[00:52:07] some attacks all that's but let's assume for the sake of argument that his testimony was relevant

[00:52:14] that's a note that that's definitely it was not I mean let's do it overly generous I'm just saying

[00:52:20] by losing his temper he lost the opportunity to share his story with the court well I'm gonna say

[00:52:25] this it was very amusing to me because at the end of all this in his closing statement David Hennessy

[00:52:30] you know pops off with like there's two camps they're always fighting I don't know what like lore he's

[00:52:35] he's reading from on the Delphi case I think there's more like 15 camps and they're always fighting

[00:52:40] you know this is a very there are a lot of offshoot groups here this is not a simple

[00:52:45] simple war between Roevin Carthage but I would say that he's like they're fighting outside

[00:52:51] and it's like Mr. Hennessy you you brought this guy you brought Rick Snae in to be your like little

[00:52:58] star witness at the last moment and made a big deal in filings about how important he was

[00:53:03] and you know how much you you know you oh wow like you like he jumped he jumped up and said

[00:53:08] Eureka when he got this guy on the phone and he's the one fighting outside so what does that say

[00:53:13] about the decision that you made to bring these people in that they're then fighting in the streets

[00:53:19] I like and my understanding is that the the cause of this fight what it was not a fight about any

[00:53:26] of the issues directly related to the case it was just it was just ego it was like yeah you insulted me

[00:53:32] you insulted me you insulted my wife okay like walk away I but anyways I just thought it was

[00:53:38] amusing that Hennessy tried to be like isn't it chaotic the people that I bring into this I

[00:53:43] what's going on you know I I thought that was amusing that he brought that up as a point

[00:53:48] of like saying yeah I can't believe this and I hope no one ever talks about how great and wonderful

[00:53:53] you are because I would also just set me off don't talk about my wife she sucks I know the truth

[00:53:59] you have to love with her hey it's Kaylee Cuoco for price line ready to go to your happy place

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[00:55:28] to ww dot animal less consumer access dot org uh then i think you pulled out some uh a few items from

[00:55:33] your notes that you wanted to highlight yeah this was a few these were a few things uh around uh just

[00:55:41] kind of be uh just different elements and i'm going to kind of tackle them in no particular order

[00:55:49] but uh one thing that i noticed was when uh tenancy was uh had homin on the sand had jerry

[00:55:57] homin uh from the state police he talked about so there was some bizarre exchange where

[00:56:04] homin wouldn't sign the deposition that had us he did because apparently

[00:56:12] it was like rife with inaccuracies so i don't i don't know what happened there but that i

[00:56:22] that just struck me as like really odd yeah that happened and we can talk a little bit about this

[00:56:28] inaccuracy issue by again mentioning of all people rick snaay in in uh a filing david henna c said

[00:56:36] that uh jerry homins report said digrick snaay said he got the pictures from a woman named k smith

[00:56:44] and rick snaay said no i never said that and jerry homin said that was an in my report so so

[00:56:48] homin so snaay says that homin told him that that was not in his report yes so that's all coming

[00:56:54] from snaay yes okay well that's important to note but uh because you've indicated there are inaccuracies in

[00:57:02] the yeah but it's like how does that happen i mean that just seems really concerning i've you know

[00:57:10] i i would just think that that would what other inaccuracies are in there so that's what that's

[00:57:14] what they're inaccuracy it's at the point yeah we're someone's not going to sign it um that just

[00:57:19] there are a number of times where in addition to that henna c this happened in mcclellan once

[00:57:27] you know kind of a very extreme and awkward situation where he's like there's this email that proves

[00:57:32] what i'm saying and then it was like like felt like 10 hours looking for the email that he was

[00:57:37] sent on able to find so i was like that that's awkward something similar happened to henna c

[00:57:41] a number of times where we'd have to pause and like scramble around to find different papers

[00:57:45] there is like a level of disorganization that seemed to be there although again that that may

[00:57:49] just be some people's style i myself and very disorganized i can't keep track of anything so i'm

[00:57:55] i would understand that juggling a lot of this would be difficult uh one of henna c strategy seem

[00:58:01] to be uh the strategy of personally insulting others this seems to be like almost an

[00:58:07] alpha male strategy or we're great in their dumb and in one point for instance he said oh these

[00:58:13] lawyers on our side are great and they're each more experienced than nick mcclellan and i don't

[00:58:19] think judges or most people really find that sort of posturing to be too persuasive i'd even go

[00:58:28] to far to say personally when a person is in an argument about an important issue

[00:58:35] and that person resorts to name calling or suggesting that his or her opponent is an idiot

[00:58:41] or inexperience that makes me assume the person making those statements doesn't really have a good

[00:58:48] case because why do you need to consult the person on the other side unless that's all you have

[00:58:55] if they're really saying stupid things or if they're really saying things that don't hold up

[00:59:00] you can point that out in great detail without personally insulting them i disagree i think i

[00:59:08] think that kind of berg you know bravado can work for some people but i think it has to be

[00:59:13] done from a position of at least perceived power like if you're basically dunking i mean i'm not

[00:59:19] this is not very nice and i personally find it out of putting but if you're dunking on someone and

[00:59:23] you are like you know it's slam dunking the ball and they're unable to to you know block you

[00:59:28] again and again you're kind of like trash talking them some people might like that because they like

[00:59:32] yeah you know get them but um that's not what this hearing was especially for henna c i mean like

[00:59:39] if if his like this is kind of i mean maybe having too much experience in his case made him

[00:59:46] somewhat complacent because i feel like he kind of seem to kind of fall apart a few times during

[00:59:50] this thing like it it was not it was not a particularly uh this was not its clearance dare o moment

[00:59:56] as i guess what i'm trying to say and i think it's disappointing um you know obviously he went after

[01:00:02] us a bit and and that's that's whatever i mean like like basically they're calling us the murder

[01:00:07] sheet people you know whatever he wants to do free advertising for us that's fine i i would say though

[01:00:13] that like we've seen him do a good job i thought his defense of um Baldwin and Rosie at the hearing

[01:00:22] where they kind of showed up uninvited and then got kicked out was really good i did only

[01:00:27] he kind of stood up gave this speech about you know what he wanted on the record and i thought

[01:00:33] he did a really good job and it was like short sweet to the point uh persuasive and

[01:00:40] i was expecting more of something along those lines at this thing instead he just came across as

[01:00:48] woefully unprepared a lot of times and uh he just it didn't didn't quite carry the day so when you're

[01:00:57] insulting people and then looking and acting like that during the thing it it's like like she

[01:01:04] yikes i i wrote down at when when he was talking at one point just the words you know yeesh like i mean

[01:01:09] it was it and and gole was not having it he kept uninterrupting her i don't know what that was

[01:01:15] because of his hearing issues or he just doesn't care at this point but it just was like

[01:01:21] it it wasn't i didn't feel like this was a good performance from him on several levels

[01:01:29] you mentioned uh hennessees appearance at the trot

[01:01:34] rather you mentioned hennessees appearance at the pre trial hearing where two other attorneys were

[01:01:40] appointed to represent richer alan and i think it's worth mentioning that one of those two

[01:01:46] attorneys was actually present yesterday yeah so this is um so we've been informed by a wonderful

[01:01:53] you know several wonderful listeners actually we've been pronouncing his name wrong so we do

[01:01:56] apologize so william libredo was one of the attorneys on the case who was brought in by gole and then

[01:02:04] left so he was on this and then so he seemed to be i believe i saw him in the audience but beforehand

[01:02:11] as we were lining up a number of ladies um who who are there kind of as members of the public they

[01:02:16] were i think they saw him and they're like oh it's william libredo it's william libredo

[01:02:20] he just like breezes past everybody and i just i just i think it's libredo and then he breezes past

[01:02:26] everyone which is like it's libredo it bounces out so i was like wow he seemed to be i guess

[01:02:32] there is just sort of an interest in you know i mean he had this kind of brush with this case and he

[01:02:38] was interviewed by bribes McDonald courtini on it and it seems like some of his interests remains

[01:02:45] and he sort of wanted to see what was going on today so he did show up for at least part of that

[01:02:51] hearing not sitting in the defense designated section but just saying um i believe i saw him in

[01:02:56] our row which was the first row of the public seating um may have not been him i guess i don't want to

[01:03:01] like just in case it was another similar looking guy but i'm like like 98% certain that was him

[01:03:08] and we definitely saw him before angers he identified himself so what else did you want to

[01:03:15] mention from yesterday there was a none from hennessey there was some discussion of our a man who

[01:03:22] unfortunately um died by suicide in the midst of the leak investigation he was uh kind of part

[01:03:29] of the chain that formed the leak he got them from western men and hennessey seemed to oddly go

[01:03:37] after him a little bit he kind of indicated that r was dishonest because cohen had the impression

[01:03:42] that r was claiming to be an attorney that is something we reported as well that is something

[01:03:46] that cohen told us as well uh that's not evident that r was doing that in any of the screenshots

[01:03:52] that we reviewed he never says i'm attorney or like here's what i'm doing um but we just don't know

[01:03:58] because we can't we don't know the discussions between r and cohen i'm just noting that we don't have

[01:04:03] any evidence for that but hennessey also said that you know could have stressed that there's no

[01:04:07] provable or no proof of the link direct link between r and bald one it seemed like he was kind of

[01:04:13] like pointing towards like the idea that r might have been i don't know like i think though i think

[01:04:20] it was kind of part of attacking the facts of the leak of like maybe maybe there's something more

[01:04:24] going on here he didn't really go far down the path though so i don't entirely know what he was

[01:04:29] getting at but it is worse and noting obviously unfortunately r is not here anymore to defend himself

[01:04:34] or give his that the story so that's that's just um obviously an incredible tragedy amidst all

[01:04:42] this stuff but in the middle of this like hennessey even like addressed the the crowd like you know he

[01:04:48] was breaking the fourth wall i forget what he said it was almost i think it was i'm paraphrasing

[01:04:53] here but i think it was like something like stick around or stay tuned and people laughed and it was

[01:04:58] just like i don't know it's a a guy died you know i i don't like it just i don't know maybe it struck me

[01:05:04] the wrong way because of the underlying tragedy around us but um yeah it was it was definitely

[01:05:14] it was definitely interesting i think if i might oh you didn't mention one of the filings uh

[01:05:23] there was some information about an investigator who once worked with the defense team

[01:05:27] oh we mentioned also that they used to use an investigator out of uh you taught

[01:05:33] which always struck us as bizarre because you would think you'd want someone on the ground in

[01:05:38] indiana but that that investigator is Jason jensen they indicated they used him for a short time

[01:05:45] prime that representation ended because of geographical issues it's unclear how long he worked on the case

[01:05:56] certainly we had a question about that ourselves and we called him sometime over the winter i

[01:06:02] can you indicate it to us that his work on the case continued at least up until the time

[01:06:09] that brad rosy and andrew Baldwin were removed from the case yeah so we don't we don't know

[01:06:17] who's right at the very least this seems to be confirmation that he is no longer working on the case

[01:06:23] yes and i guess anything else about the motion to dismiss the case or taught click or any of that

[01:06:32] i don't think so again the time clicked uh testimony may arguably be incredibly relevant at the trial

[01:06:40] it didn't really seem to be relevant to when they needed to prove yesterday and i just think if you

[01:06:45] take away one thing from all of this it's that the stuff that has been disseminated about what

[01:06:54] clicks said about there be recording of some sort of child abduction or abduction of a girl

[01:07:01] abduction and anything of that nature is incorrect it was it it was a drug related abduction

[01:07:09] that when you actually look at the details is strikingly different from delphi that's not to say

[01:07:15] that i mean if you can prove the history of violent behavior that might be relevant but i think i've

[01:07:20] seen a lot of people just sort of run with this idea that there was something to this that

[01:07:28] there wasn't and it's frankly disheartening to see because i feel like we're once again

[01:07:36] we're just seeing misinformation spread like wildfire across the internet in this case

[01:07:43] and it's really important that even if you're rooting hard for one side

[01:07:50] that we don't do this because that doesn't benefit anybody and let the facts speak for themselves

[01:08:00] let let click testify a trial and maybe he swaves the jury with his belief that

[01:08:06] messer and company are better suspects but we don't need to twist around clicks words in order to

[01:08:14] sort of get cheap internet points at this early date i just don't because the fact is it's very easy

[01:08:20] to twist people's words whether it's click or a professor or turco but it's easy to do that now

[01:08:28] before a trial and cross examination the ultimate truth of what these people are actually saying

[01:08:35] will be revealed to the jurors at the trial and if people are twisting their words now

[01:08:42] they're not going to look like they have much credibility of the trial that's the thing credibility

[01:08:48] is all we have at the end of the day and making mistakes is understandable but when we do that it's

[01:08:55] important to stand up and note that and take ownership for it because we ultimately if we're

[01:09:01] advocating for one side or another we're actually doing that side more harm by doing stuff like this

[01:09:07] because you're making it clear to anybody who's not already converted that

[01:09:13] you know the facts are not necessarily on your side or perhaps misinformation or even outright

[01:09:17] deception is right and so when i see stuff like this it just it makes me sad because um

[01:09:26] i will also say i think that if there had been something of that magnitude revealed in the hearing

[01:09:34] yesterday that would have been the wall to wall story on every outlet like there's video

[01:09:42] of a child kidnapping on johnny messers phone first of all question would be well why was it never

[01:09:47] charged or reported on so that would be one thing but the other the other thing would be oh my gosh

[01:09:52] there's a pattern here like that that's the kind of story that that would be here the journalist at

[01:09:59] the traditional outlets are looking for you hear them talking in the hallway what are the main points

[01:10:04] what do we need to highlight what do we need to do what's the big thing that our audience cares about

[01:10:08] especially television you need to boil things down to the big points that your audience is going

[01:10:14] to care about and let me tell you another child abduction being uncovered on one of the defensive

[01:10:22] suspects phones and dropped as a bombshell in the middle of this thing that's what they're looking

[01:10:28] for that would be huge but it didn't happen yeah again where is something this wasn't a deliberate

[01:10:36] act of deceit on the part of mr moda that he simply misheard but we think that something of this

[01:10:42] magnitude guy it was worse of sitting down and talking with you and explaining that those reports

[01:10:49] that claim simply was not true and with that said is there anything else we wanted to say I think

[01:10:56] we've been talking to these poor people for over an hour we've been we've been running like a

[01:11:01] resource down these down these twisting roads I'm trying to bring it back full circle I'm sorry

[01:11:09] so think about maybe for the next book club maybe we talk about race horse hangs he deserves it

[01:11:15] he deserves it we salute an attorney and so again my profound and most sincere apologies for

[01:11:24] not recognizing the greatness of race horse hangs well listen thank you all so much for listening

[01:11:29] there's more to unpack on this hearing or other rampant misinformation that's going on around

[01:11:34] the internet as usual we might check back in but in the meantime just stay safe and thanks you listening

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