The Disappearance of Brianna Maitland with Tim and Lance from Crawlspace

[00:00:00] [SPEAKER_00] I'm Anya and today we're delving into the eerie, unsolved disappearance of a 17-year-old young woman with Tim and Lance from Crawlspace.

[00:00:08] [SPEAKER_01] Content warning! This episode contains discussion of violence and murder.

[00:00:13] [SPEAKER_00] It's one of those images that just sticks in your mind. A green 1985 Oldsmobile 88 on dead grass, backed up against a boarded up building. No one's in sight. A mountain looms in the distance. It's a picture where it just looks like something very, very bad happened. And it did.

[00:00:33] [SPEAKER_01] On March 19, 2004, 17-year-old Brianna Maitland clocked out of her job as a dishwasher at the Black Lantern Inn in Montgomery, Vermont. She drove off into the night. She never made it home.

[00:00:47] [SPEAKER_00] Her car was found backed up against an abandoned building known as the Old Dutchburn House along Route 118. Personal belongings of hers were scattered around. That was over 22 years ago.

[00:01:00] [SPEAKER_01] Brianna's family is still waiting for answers about what happened to her. Two podcasters in particular have done an excellent job in covering this mysterious case. Tim Polari and Lance Rainsternot, known for their podcasts Crawlspace and Missing and Impy Frames as well as Missing Maura Murray.

[00:01:18] [SPEAKER_00] We've listened to them and their shows for years, and we've long admired the work they do, their connections with the victims' families, and their efforts trying to kick up some answers in these cases.

[00:01:29] [SPEAKER_01] Now we're going to get to hear from them about this case that they've worked on for a very long time. We'll learn about all the twists and turns in Brianna's case, all the misinformation we can simply disregard, and the eyewitness sighting that only just recently came to light. Let's get into it.

[00:01:46] [SPEAKER_00] My name is Anya Kane. I'm a journalist.

[00:01:49] [SPEAKER_01] And I'm Kevin Greenlee. I'm an attorney. And this is The Murder Sheet. We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews, and deep dives into murder cases. We're The Murder Sheet.

[00:02:02] [SPEAKER_00] And this is The Disappearance of Brianna Maitland with Tim and Lance from Crawlspace.

[00:02:50] [SPEAKER_00] I guess to start off with Tim and Lance, can you tell us just a bit about who Brianna Maitland was? Tell us about this 17-year-old young woman living in Vermont in 2004.

[00:03:02] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah, well, by all accounts, and I just want to start off by saying we didn't know her. We do know her dad now, but that's pretty much the extent. We've met some of her friends. So Brianna was 17 when she went missing on March 19, 2004. And she was working as a dishwasher at a restaurant called the Black Lantern Inn. And that's where she was right before she went missing. But she also had a second job.

[00:03:30] [SPEAKER_02] I forget the name of that place. It was some kind of breakfast. It was like a diner. Yeah.

[00:03:35] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah.

[00:03:36] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. And it was in a different little town, I believe. So she had planned to go to that job for the next morning. And as far as her personality, we know that she was, I think, spunky is a good way to put it. She seemed like a lot of fun. She had a lot of friends. Everyone who knew her that we've spoken with spoke really highly of her.

[00:04:00] [SPEAKER_02] I think it might be fair to say that she was a little restless in the area in which she grew up. And I think, you know, she, much like a lot of teens in rural areas, they will go to the bigger towns to explore a little bit. I think she'd gone to Burlington. She'd been to Springfield, Mass. Or maybe it was Worcester, Mass. For some kind of event. So, yeah. She seemed like a lot of fun.

[00:04:26] [SPEAKER_02] She had dropped out of high school and actually taken her GED test that day. And she had dropped out, I believe, because she had split some time between two different high schools. And then I'm not sure why it didn't really, it didn't take the second time. She also seemed a little bit more mature than, you know, certainly like I was at 17. Like she was living with a roommate, you know, at that point. You know, I wasn't, I was still like six years away from that.

[00:04:55] [SPEAKER_02] At 17. So, you know, I do think she had a good head on her shoulders and was reportedly very smart.

[00:05:03] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah. And I just want to add real quick that a lot of the stigma that's attached to Brianna comes from early reports. It comes from even, you know, communication with police and investigators that there was this bad element in town. And there was a bad element in town because they're close to the New York border. They're close to the Canadian border. There's a lot of illicit, I don't want to specifically say drugs. Hold on, there's sirens in the back. I don't live in a high crime area only when we start recording.

[00:05:33] [SPEAKER_00] What did you do, Lance?

[00:05:36] [SPEAKER_03] Seriously, it's fine until we hit record. Okay. So I think in an area like that, which is small population, everybody knows everybody. When an element like that goes into that area, you know, there's no avoiding them. And if Brianna happened to hang out with a certain circle of people during her high school career and then was seen with another circle of people who might be outsiders, who might have some trouble behind them, you know, she starts to get this reputation.

[00:06:01] [SPEAKER_03] But like Tim said, like by all accounts from her friends and even Bruce, who has told us that, I mean, it's one of the more heartbreaking things that Bruce has told us. He says that his memories of Brianna, there's something that he will, he only allows himself to access from time to time. He keeps them in like a corner of his mind and he'll open that up. And they're not for anybody else but him. So I'm sure he has a lot of really, you know, poignant memories of her. She was a black belt in jujitsu for her age and her size.

[00:06:29] [SPEAKER_03] And, you know, that's not saying she's like walking down the street, you know, putting people in like arm bars and stuff. But she had a sense of like purpose. And she had a, like Tim said, a little bit older than her years, I think. But that stigma is starting to wear away now. The more people talk about her, the more time passes and the more we realize like these are unfair stereotypes that a lot of people we talk about are faced with. Because people always go to the bad thing first.

[00:06:58] [SPEAKER_03] Honestly, like and she's very relatable in a town like that. You know, Tim said that he wasn't out of his house when he was 17. But when I graduated high school, like I think I spent one more day in my house. And then five friends and I rented a house and lived there for like two years, you know. So it's all like a matter of like where you're at, you know. So when people say that she wasn't even living at home, like, no, she was living with somebody and she had been bouncing around from place to place.

[00:07:26] [SPEAKER_03] But it wasn't like she was like walking the streets and, you know, spending time like outside of restaurants, digging through like their trash to try to eat. You know, she was getting by. She was doing OK.

[00:07:39] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah, I think I think that's so well said. And I so appreciate you clearing up some of those stereotypes about her, because as you said, there's a context to this. There's the small town girl growing up on a farm wanting to be more independent. But everything I've read and from listening to your show and you guys have done such amazing work on this case and working so closely with her dad over the years. You really get the sense of like this is just a stage of development for her where she's kind of, you know, expanding and doing new things. It's not something that's like questionable.

[00:08:08] [SPEAKER_00] She seems really close with her family, too.

[00:08:11] [SPEAKER_02] I think that is fair to say she had a brother, Wayland, and she grew up with her mom and dad as well. And yeah, like I said, it was a bit of a rural place, rural area for sure. But I think even the family didn't have some like I want to say it was it was like a was it an oven, Lance, like a full oven that they didn't have at one at one point. Oh, yeah. I just think Bruce, great guy.

[00:08:40] [SPEAKER_02] We love him. He, you know, I think had a vision of sort of, you know, blending in and kind of living off the land to some degree a little bit more than, you know, we do today, I think.

[00:08:52] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah, bit off the grid. And I don't know what would have happened in the direction or the trajectory of his life if Brianna hadn't disappeared. But even today, like when you when you talk to Bruce, I mean, if it's over Internet or whatever, you know, there's nonstop connectivity problems. He he just he's got his fireplace. He does his work and he's like a very off the off the land type person.

[00:09:17] [SPEAKER_00] I'm wondering now that we've kind of gotten to know Brianna a bit, maybe we can talk about Friday, March 19th, 2004. You guys already set up perfectly. She's working two jobs. She's a hardworking kid. She just got her G. She just took the GED exam. And what can you tell us about this Friday where she goes missing?

[00:09:37] [SPEAKER_02] Well, I guess I don't know much about before the point where she was working her shift. I believe she was a dishwasher at the Black Lantern Inn and seems like a nice little restaurant in a very small, quaint town of Montgomery. So somewhere around 11 p.m. I believe is when she left her shift and didn't make it more than about a mile down the road.

[00:10:06] [SPEAKER_02] And she was traveling the direction that we would have expected her to travel to the place that she was staying. She had a car. I believe it was an Oldsmobile 88, a big kind of boat of a vehicle. And her car was found abandoned, connected to, kind of hooked up onto the foundation of an abandoned house. And that house was called the Old Dutchburn House.

[00:10:35] [SPEAKER_02] This is a house that had been abandoned for some years. There was a couple of brothers who lived there at one point called the Dutchburn Brothers. I think they had a farm. So a very rural area. This is a wide open field beyond that house. But her car was found connected to it. Doors were open. Lights were on. I believe there was some jewelry strewn about on the lawn, on the grass near where the door was open.

[00:11:03] [SPEAKER_02] And some of these details are a little tough to recount because there was actually a group of skiers who stopped by. They saw her car before the police did. And they pulled over and they took photos. So those photos that you see today of her car, those are actually taken by sort of amateur, I don't know, I guess what you'd call them. They called themselves the world travelers.

[00:11:28] [SPEAKER_02] So there was just like a group of friends who were skiers and they would, I guess, take pictures of random things that they would see on the side of the road. This was pretty random. And, you know, if you've seen the photos, it looks like something bad happened. And it really does. So that was good instinct, I would say, on their part.

[00:11:47] [SPEAKER_00] I feel like for me, that's one of the scariest pictures in true crime where there's nothing inherently scary about it. And I don't know. Did you have that reaction as folks who are podcasters, investigators kind of looking into this after the fact? Or is that just me?

[00:12:03] [SPEAKER_03] I like that you said there's nothing inherently scary about it when I think there's everything inherently scary about it. The house is boarded up. The back of her car. And I don't mean to laugh. The back of her car is like hung up into this building and it's not too far off the road. So there's a lot of scary things here. It's not like deep in the woods. That would be scary. But the fact that this happens so close to the road is frightening. And it is, unfortunately, an iconic picture in true crime.

[00:12:32] [SPEAKER_03] And it became an iconic picture.

[00:12:34] [SPEAKER_02] I believe that Brianna's mom said something to the effect of there's evil in that photo. Yeah. So it's not even just us. Family felt it instantly as well.

[00:12:47] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah. And I want to just back up a little bit and say that we did mention that Brianna took her GED. And you had mentioned that day. Like she took it that morning on Friday, March 19th. And she completed the test. And then she went to have lunch with her mom. And this is sort of like this true crime lore. They went shopping. And Brianna, by all accounts, it was a normal afternoon. And Brianna left the store. They were waiting in line, I think, in the checkout line.

[00:13:16] [SPEAKER_03] And Brianna left the store and apparently talked to somebody. Not sure what happened. But her mom, Kelly, said that when she came back in or when they reconnected, she seemed like, I think her words were like, she was shook up a bit. She was a bit shaken. That is to say absolutely nothing. Did that have anything to do with the disappearance or not? You know, she could have had a conversation with anybody that left her shaken in this.

[00:13:43] [SPEAKER_03] You know, her abduction or disappearance has nothing to do with this. But then she goes on to get ready for the work shift that she had later on that evening at the Black Lantern. So it seemed like a normal day leading up to leading up to her shift and then and then her post shift unfortunate events.

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[00:17:21] [SPEAKER_01] What can you tell us about the start of the investigation into this case?

[00:17:26] [SPEAKER_03] I really want to be sarcastic and be like, it was spot on, but...

[00:17:32] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah, sadly, that's not the case. Actually, parents didn't even learn about Brianna's disappearance or her car having been found in which it was found for several days. So they actually went to, I believe, the Vermont State Police barracks and asked them. And I believe they were talking about the car when a trooper sort of overheard them.

[00:17:59] [SPEAKER_02] And he was like, oh, are you talking about this car? And he had taken a picture. I don't know if it was with a cell phone at that time. But he showed them the picture, and they said, yeah, that's the car. And apparently it had been towed, I want to say, a couple of days before. And so Bruce and Wayland went to the tow yard and actually had to crowbar the trunk open. I think Bruce was very fearful of what he might find in the trunk. But of course, there was no one in there.

[00:18:30] [SPEAKER_02] But it's very disappointing to know how much time was lost in the initial point in this investigation.

[00:18:38] [SPEAKER_03] And this is just me speculating or me just kind of putting pieces together based on everything that we've been told through Bruce and one of the primary investigators, Greg Overacker, and even Lou Berry, who has since passed. But between him and Greg Overacker, they were like Bruce's right-hand man looking into Brianna's disappearance. It feels like even when the conversation happened about, oh, is it this car? And then she's not found. And then she had left a note for her roommate. The morning, she disappeared.

[00:19:08] [SPEAKER_03] So Friday morning, she left a note for her roommate. Her roommate went away for the weekend and came back on Monday. The note was still there, undisturbed. Because those factors come into play, I guess, with the area and I guess the type of freedoms that people of that age had in that area, no one really took it seriously still. Even after Bruce is prying open the trunk with a crowbar, it was still more like, well, she'll probably turn up.

[00:19:33] [SPEAKER_03] And again, just totally me putting the connecting dots that I'm trying to make sense of based on the information that these investigators have given to us. And honestly, for years, that's the reason why Bruce reached out to us. Because we were covering Maura Murray and she was getting a lot of attention. And he was like, why isn't my daughter getting this attention? And that was sort of like, even years later, people were saying, well, she could have ran away. Like she always just fell into that category.

[00:20:03] [SPEAKER_02] Right. And I just want to add a little bit about Maura Murray's case here in comparison. If you look at how Maura's car was found and then look at how Brianna's car was found, one car is clear, in my opinion, that someone was abducted from the scene. Maura's car was locked. Yes, it had been in a minor accident, but it wasn't hung up on something like Brianna's car could not be moved off of that foundation. Without some physical lifting in the back of that vehicle.

[00:20:33] [SPEAKER_02] Maura's car was not like that. I believe it started right up, too. And again, it was locked. She took her purse and her phone and things like that. Whereas in Brianna's car, there were uncashed checks on the passenger side seat. So much different, totally different scenarios of how these cars were left. And, you know, it seems like New Hampshire actually took the case a little bit more seriously in their initial investigation.

[00:21:00] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah, really important. Sorry, I get fired up on this because I'll just button up that point with this. Like you look at the picture of Brianna's car and then the road. You know, you don't look at that and be like, oh, I could see how this could happen with one person. When you look at Maura's, it's like you look at the road. It's February in the winter and it's these hairpin turns and you see her car there and think, I can totally see how someone can lose control of a car in any condition.

[00:21:26] [SPEAKER_03] If you hit black ice or something, you know, this is a car that gets on the other side of the road facing the other way. Like you to get in that position, you have to pull into that area. You have to pass the house, pull in and then and then do a like you have to hit reverse and then accelerate backwards into the house. Like that people just don't do that. Really fast.

[00:21:50] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. Yeah. Probably really fast, too. I don't know how fast you'd have to go, but probably at least 20, 30 miles per hour, if not fast enough to go through the house.

[00:21:58] [SPEAKER_00] You know, geez, that is such a real that's a really good point about there's there's two cars. One's a clear crime scene. The other is ambiguous. And and there was a lot of attention on Maura's case, as there should be. I'd like there to be attention on all the cases. Right. But yeah. And I feel like you all were very much a big part of raising awareness within true crime about Brianna's case, or at least that's how I found out about the case. I'm wondering before we can kind of get into maybe how you all started with it and sort of what that journey has been like for you.

[00:22:28] [SPEAKER_00] Maybe we can talk about some of the theories in Brianna's case. But with an eye toward we don't want to be perpetuating some of the stereotypes you mentioned. We don't want to just be sort of lumping Brianna in with, you know, this kind of bad crowd that we mentioned. And maybe it's an opportunity to kind of talk about some of these things while also clearing up some of that misinformation, I think would be an apt way of putting it. But yeah, what what are as you all have looked into it?

[00:22:53] [SPEAKER_00] What are some of the kind of prevalent theories that have come up that you found credible about what may have happened to Brianna that night?

[00:23:00] [SPEAKER_02] Jeez. Well, credible. That's I mean, I can certainly recount the theories. The part of the theories being credible is more challenging because, you know, I don't know. I don't know if there's a single theory that I've heard that sounds like extremely credible to me.

[00:23:16] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah, I don't. As we had been putting out material on this and producing episodes and talking to more people, you know, you'd have someone who was close to Brianna growing up talk about people within their circle and elements of that, you know, group that would be capable of doing this.

[00:23:38] [SPEAKER_03] And and they would speak very passionately about why this person's family wasn't allowing investigators to go onto their property to do a search. And there was a rumor of this person saying that Brianna was strung up the way they did when they would, you know, strip pigs down and and these gruesome descriptions and, you know, areas of properties that had like a mud pit or something and rocks that were put on top of it.

[00:24:06] [SPEAKER_03] So there were all of the and everybody would speak very passionately about that. And then there's the other part where it's an element that came in from New York and they were drug dealers and Brianna owed them money and or or they owed her money. That was one of like fifteen hundred dollars. And then they needed to settle that. All of these theories are really interesting. And you kind of fall into believing them when you're talking to the person because they're so passionate about it. But all of them involve more than one person.

[00:24:35] [SPEAKER_03] And that means like everybody's not talking, you know, and I don't I'm not saying like only one person did this, but the theories are hard to kind of split and say one's more credible than the other. Because like that means like people in town who didn't have any experience, as far as I know, in covering up abductions and murders were perfectly capable to do that and excelled at it.

[00:24:58] [SPEAKER_03] And then another group that has a long criminal history of drug dealing and also prison murder, you know, but no one's saying anything like no one's saying like no one's like saying anything to make their plea deal or something like that. So I don't know. I mean, the theories are tough to speculate on. But I think one thing is for certain is that she was ambushed that night and it wasn't random.

[00:25:27] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah, but the car and the way everything's placed in the way the whole scene doesn't really make any sense does speak to that and speak to it. I mean, honestly, what you're saying sort of reminds me of a case we've covered, the Burger Chef murders, where you have a lot of theories. Some of them are really outlandish. Others are not so outlandish, but there's just not either it's either there's a flaw with them or there's not quite enough information. And a lot of it would require a lot of people not saying anything for decades.

[00:25:55] [SPEAKER_00] And it's like it's hard to do anything with that.

[00:25:58] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah, I was wondering when you cover a case as you guys have covered this one, you become aware not just of what's true that's out there, but also the fact that the true crime world and the social media world, there's a lot of misinformation circulating. Is there any misinformation about this case that you would like to debunk?

[00:26:19] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah, great question. So I do think it's interesting in regards to sightings. There was a, you know, quote unquote, sighting of Brianna. It was like gambling in Atlantic City. That one is very much not near the radar of being something that that anyone involved in the investigation thinks is true or could have any truth.

[00:26:43] [SPEAKER_02] To Lance's earlier point about this case sort of not being covered very widely and for for, I don't know, reasons of, I don't know, drugs being put out into the public or things like that. Like, I don't think Brianna was any kind of hardcore drug user in any way, shape or form. She was 17. She was in high school.

[00:27:08] [SPEAKER_02] I don't know about your guys' high school experience, but there were certainly drugs at my high school, plenty of them. And I hung out with and knew some of the people doing them. And maybe I did some of them myself. So to me, that none of that seems weird. As Lance said, and you guys said too, like, there are these theories and rumors that we've heard, but none of them seem like flawless.

[00:27:32] [SPEAKER_02] They all include this very small community and friends group keeping their mouth shut for all these years. Just seems like an impossibility to me after so long. If there was some knowledge in that group that, you know, those people are still here today, I just feel like it would have shaken out by now. So I don't really think that there's strong knowledge in Brianna's, you know, close friends group.

[00:28:01] [SPEAKER_03] And then there was the Israel Keys connection. I think in 2012, Israel Keys was being investigated for, you know, any potential connection or being responsible. But I think shortly after he committed suicide, he was ruled out or right before he committed suicide.

[00:28:18] [SPEAKER_03] But it was sort of like a sexy true crime, like, you know, momentum to kind of hop on to be thinking that this spread, you know, to Vermont. Like he was there, but he was ruled out.

[00:28:35] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah, I feel like there was a time where everything was getting attributed to him. And it's like, okay, couldn't have done all of it.

[00:28:43] [SPEAKER_02] I mean, he did a lot of it, but not all of it.

[00:28:45] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah, definitely a very scary dude.

[00:28:47] [SPEAKER_02] But yeah, and he had victims in Vermont, too. So I think that's partially why and kill kits that are still on, you know, unfound undiscovered at this point, supposedly buried somewhere in the northeast. But yes, Keys was ruled out. I don't believe he had anything to do with it. I also don't believe Maura Murray's case is connected with Brianna Maitland's case. And I think that still comes up from time to time.

[00:29:10] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah, and you guys are certainly the experts on the Maura Murray case. So I feel like, I mean, as you even pointed out some of the differences and just the scene left behind by both. I was wondering, you know, in terms of how you all got involved in Brianna's case, you mentioned earlier Bruce reaching out to you early on and saying, like, my daughter's case isn't getting this attention. Can you talk us through those early days of you guys kind of becoming involved in sort of what that was like, what that experience was like for you?

[00:29:36] [SPEAKER_02] Sure. Yeah, I think we were probably around 25 or 30 episodes into our coverage of Maura Murray's case. And so that puts us back to like probably like 2016 at some point in time. And we had heard from, I believe, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong in any of these details, Lance. But I believe we heard from Greg Overacker first, who is or was a private investigator.

[00:30:05] [SPEAKER_02] He also wrote a book on the case. I say was because he was a private investigator for many years. He's not currently. He informed me of that last week. So after speaking with him and he's a great guy and also, you know, a guy who doesn't want to spare you any facts. So if you're hearing the story from him, it's like two to three hours of a phone call. And he's very entertaining and a lovely guy.

[00:30:31] [SPEAKER_02] And so that was our first sort of introduction to the case and really like how, I guess, dark it can get. But just in comparison to Maura's case, because our coverage of Maura's case, like it didn't get this dark right away. It really didn't. Because, you know, here we were already talking with a private investigator who had these theories that, you know, and at this point, I want to say that they felt like they had some idea of who was involved. These rumors, these things, as you guys know, they cycle up over and over.

[00:31:01] [SPEAKER_02] And so I guess we were in one of those cycles. And then shortly after speaking with Greg, we spoke with Bruce and learned a bit more about him and the case from him. And he really had the idea for the nonprofit private investigations for the missing very early on. And I want to say it might not have been that first conversation that we had with Bruce, but it might have been. I'm not I'm not quite sure. It was just an idea. Yeah.

[00:31:31] [SPEAKER_02] But it was just an idea at that point. It was, you know, put into motion a couple of years later, probably. But so, yeah, he really liked what we had done with Maura Murray's coverage. And, you know, we used to say we like to shape shake the apple tree in that community and see what apples fall. And that was kind of what he wanted us to do in Brianna's case. And I will say I think we did that. Obviously, nothing.

[00:31:59] [SPEAKER_02] None of the fruit was edible, if you will. You know, nothing like that you could really take a bite out of. But I do think, you know, the case is in a much different place today than it was way back then.

[00:32:14] [SPEAKER_00] Absolutely. What's it been like, I guess, building up that relationship with these investigators who've worked so hard on the case, but also with Bruce Maitland, you know, like he lost his daughter. How, as, you know, I guess, true crime podcasters, were you able to kind of build up that trust and that relationship over time?

[00:32:31] [SPEAKER_03] Well, it was terrifying, at least for me, like to talk to him for the first time when he wanted to have a phone call. I remember like I was shaking. I didn't know what to do. I mean, this is somebody who has lost his daughter and now he's going to trust two guys who he doesn't know who are pretty early on in their podcasting career. Like even podcasting was kind of early in this. It had been around for a while before, but like it wasn't it hadn't like launched itself into the stratosphere yet like it has.

[00:32:59] [SPEAKER_03] So it was weird. It was weird to not have any experience investigating a disappearance other than Maura Murray. And that wasn't even like an investigation so much as like reporting facts and then correcting facts and then communicating with law enforcement and family members. But it's surreal. You know, it's surreal. You start to have a little like, what am I doing here? Like imposter syndrome. But after a while, like you get to realize that when somebody like Bruce Maitland trusts you, that opens up doors. It opens up doors to other investigators, Greg Overacker, Lou Berry.

[00:33:29] [SPEAKER_03] And you start to really double check yourself. Like when you're putting information out there, you start to say like, OK, what's Bruce going to how is Bruce going to hear this? What is he going to think when he hears these people on the show? And always a huge relief whenever he would write back and say like, oh, I listened to the episode. You know, and he's a man of very few words and emails. So when he's like, good job, you know, it really it really resonates. It's the same story when you talk to investigators.

[00:33:55] [SPEAKER_03] It's like Lou Berry would never say like, you guys are you guys are going in the well, he would say you're going in the right direction. But he would do it in a way where it's like teaching you the lesson without knowing you're being taught the lesson that you're doing the right thing. And I know that sounds like a confusing way to put it. But when you when you experience that, you start to realize, like, I just need to take a step back and view it differently. And that's something that Lou would taught would teach us.

[00:34:21] [SPEAKER_03] And also just like having a sense of humor when you when you are able to make Bruce laugh for the first time and you understand what he finds funny. That opens a lot of doors as well.

[00:34:31] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah, that's true. I would say also that I think I learned a lot of a great deal of how to think critically about these cases, specifically from Greg Overacker and Lou Berry. I think they were, you know, very impactful on our sort of coverage in these cases.

[00:34:47] [SPEAKER_00] Absolutely, because I'm sure you get so much chaff along with hopefully some wheat when people are reaching out to you or, you know, what about this? And it's like you have to separate that very much in order to do a good job covering it.

[00:34:59] [SPEAKER_01] I'd like to jump back to something Lance mentioned, which is when you first heard from Mr. Maitland, you guys were relatively new and true crime podcasting wasn't really that big yet. And certainly your show is one of the very first ones that Anya and I listened to. And we were introduced to a lot of other podcasts and cases through you. So I'm curious what got you guys started working in true crime podcasting?

[00:35:26] [SPEAKER_03] I always say the money.

[00:35:30] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah, it's always a good a good laugh. It's amazing. We got started in true crime podcasting because we actually had a film background to some degree, and we were interested in making a documentary that explored the culture of web sleuths surrounding more Murray's disappearance. Very hyper niche.

[00:35:57] [SPEAKER_02] And so we had filmed a bit for this documentary. And but the problem was, we didn't you know, there was a large community writing about the case online. But there wasn't a large amount of these people like contacting us or wanting to be interviewed or put their face to any of these theories and things like that. So our goal was to launch the podcast to introduce ourselves essentially to more of these folks that we wanted to interview for this documentary really about the culture of the disappearance.

[00:36:25] [SPEAKER_02] But the podcast essentially took off right away. And in a way that it would it would shock us if it happened today. I don't even know what I would do if that happened today. But it kind of took off right away. And maybe like two months into it, we heard from a production company. And so it was pretty like quick that it was clear the audience wanted us to dive into the mystery and less of the culture. And that was what this production company had approached us about.

[00:36:55] [SPEAKER_02] They wanted to do an investigatory documentary where that wasn't really our focus. So since they were two really actually different things, we were very much on board with trying to help the case in that way. So we sort of put our documentary aside for the time being and went right for this that would, you know, we were hoping would really help the case.

[00:37:20] [SPEAKER_00] Absolutely. I'm going to nerd out a bit. So you guys were the first true crime podcast. I don't know if I listened to you first, but you were the first one that I got really into. I thought you guys did a wonderful job. I didn't want to start out with that because I didn't want to sound like Chris Farley in his interviews. Like, remember when you did a podcast? That was really great. But, you know, it's one thing that's been a pleasure to watch and just also kind of has made me stick with you guys is that I feel like you've it's very it's a great podcast. It's very, very I feel like I get to know you guys.

[00:37:50] [SPEAKER_00] You have great personalities, but you're always evolving and you're always I feel like learning something that we've tried to bring to our podcast because it's like, you know, we're all of us. None of us have been police detectives or have kind of been in this space. And it's like there's always more things we can learn and bring to our audiences and kind of grow and evolve together. And I just I want to commend you for that because I feel like that is very uncommon, but it's very, very welcome. And I think it's a wonderful approach to true crime.

[00:38:17] [SPEAKER_03] Thank you. Appreciate that.

[00:38:19] [SPEAKER_00] Sorry. I had a fangirl out of bed. You guys knew I was coming. But, you know, thank you. Very nice.

[00:38:24] [SPEAKER_03] Thank you. And it's nice to know that, like, you've taken that and created this show. You're you're you're great show as well. So it's nice to know, like, you know, there's there's some there's something that can be taken from it.

[00:38:37] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah, no, I think I think there is. I just think that the humility that you guys bring to the approach and the kind of that you bring to these cases where you're kind of like, let's get it right. Let's do this for the families. I just think that is wonderful.

[00:38:48] [SPEAKER_01] And I'm curious, you guys have been in this space longer than most of us. I'm just curious, how has it changed over the years from your perspective?

[00:38:59] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. Wow. I mean, well, yeah, besides the obvious video answer, because I think we're in another one of those eras where video podcasting is a thing, by the way, like we uploaded I think our very first anything that we uploaded to missing more Murray, the podcast feed was a video trailer. So video podcasting was a thing back in 2015. And then it wasn't. And now it is, you know, very much back.

[00:39:23] [SPEAKER_02] But yeah, beyond the technical side, I mean, YouTube is such a strange rabbit hole at this point. We've sort of been looking at like what's working on YouTube and and not what's interesting. One interesting, I think, observation is that sometimes our episodes will work on YouTube and sometimes they won't. But the podcast listening listenership is pretty much very consistent across the board.

[00:39:52] [SPEAKER_02] And YouTube seems to fluctuate a great deal. I don't know if you guys have any of that experience as well.

[00:40:00] [SPEAKER_00] Yes.

[00:40:01] [SPEAKER_03] Also, the type of content has changed quite a bit. Not not quite a bit. I think the the intent behind the content has changed from being sort of obviously in it to get the listens and build your audience because you're saying salacious things to the advocacy part has been something that's grown quite a bit. And somehow people have made that into a very listenable experience.

[00:40:28] [SPEAKER_03] And a lot of smart people have changed the the way that these stories are being told so that you can still listen to them and be intrigued by them and not be bombarded with like all of the salaciousness of it. Because you can take Brianna's story and you can speculate and go wild with the salacious details that you've created in your head. Not that actually exists, but you've connected dots and and then people will listen because they like that.

[00:40:55] [SPEAKER_03] But getting back to what Tim said about critical thinking, you know, there are groups of people who have applied critical thinking and whether or not. Listeners want to hear that particular piece of information, it's still important and they will listen because they know it's important. So I feel like a lot of maturity has happened.

[00:41:13] [SPEAKER_00] Absolutely. And that's that's certainly been welcome. I I do want to ask you to mention some of the lack of critical thinking that can occur in this space. And one thing I've been aware of, and I think we've touched upon this in this conversation, is that, you know, the Maitland family has gotten or, you know, their investigators have gotten kind of. Thing, you know, tips about things that are just these kind of horrible, outlandish stories about what happened to Brianna. And maybe some of those tips come from well-meaning people or even unwell people.

[00:41:43] [SPEAKER_00] But some of it just seems kind of like cruel speculation for a family already grieving. And I guess, can you speak to that about some of, you know, how the Maitland family has been treated in that sense? And I just find that so unfortunate when a family that's already going through it. It's like a pile on almost.

[00:42:00] [SPEAKER_02] The disappearance of Brianna really, really messed with their family. Of course, they ended up moving from the town. I remember or I recall a story where Bruce was in like a convenience store and he heard people talking about the case. And I think that was a very uncomfortable moment for him. And that was one reason they wanted to leave the area. I think I think they also got threats.

[00:42:26] [SPEAKER_02] It sounds pretty crazy to threaten the family of a missing person, you know, missing young woman. But they got threats, I believe, put in their mailbox, if I'm not mistaken.

[00:42:35] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah. And Bruce ended up like going down his driveway with his rifle after people. And these are probably people that had nothing to do with or had no answers. They just wanted to they just wanted to mess around with something, you know, like mess around with someone's grief.

[00:42:53] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah, I wonder, you know, I don't know. But I mean, I could believe that it did have some good experience. But it doesn't necessarily have to, because, you know, as we know, these, you know, the tips and things like that happen when these people know that know that they're not telling the truth or maybe they're they block themselves. I don't know. But yeah.

[00:43:14] [SPEAKER_03] And you can just see it like when you look at pictures of Bruce and Kelly, who were they divorced at the time or did they get a divorce after? I think they were divorced at the time. After? Okay. But you see you see pictures of them like in the immediate aftermath of Brianna's disappearance. And they're just crushed. Like you can tell they're just devastated, obviously. And Bruce and Fred Murray, Maura's dad, actually have a bond.

[00:43:42] [SPEAKER_03] And like Fred has famously said, it's a club that no one wants to be a part of. But they are together and, you know, in this like tragic club. So, you know, it's all of a sudden your life is going in a completely different way. You know, there's a completely different direction. And somehow you become like in a in a in a fishbowl. You know, everybody's looking at you and watching your moves.

[00:44:06] [SPEAKER_00] I was wondering if you could tell us a bit. I mean, what your sense is about where this investigation stands today on the police side. You've talked about some of the great work done by the private investigators. But do you feel at this point that this is being taken more seriously by the powers that be in Vermont? Are they putting work into it?

[00:44:24] [SPEAKER_02] So I unless something has changed in the past few years, I want to say there's only six detectives in the entire state of Vermont. And that could account for some of the disparity between the investigation in Brianna's case and Maura's case, because there are there are more in New Hampshire. It's a bigger population as well, even though the states are, I think, similar sizes. So I don't really know where we're at.

[00:44:48] [SPEAKER_02] I do know that Lou had a lot of files and was working closely with the Vermont State Police now that he has passed. I don't know that that communication is as strong as it was. And in fact, I'll say it's probably not. Bruce has not had a great relationship with them at times. And, you know, I think it's been good also at times. I don't know where it is right now. I would hope that they are doing more than they ever have on this.

[00:45:17] [SPEAKER_02] We know that there was a recent witness sighting that the Vermont State Police were aware that was going to be broadcast and put out on our show by private investigators Lou and Greg. I don't know that that sighting can really lead anywhere. Unfortunately, it's it's pretty vague. But I will say just to add it here.

[00:45:38] [SPEAKER_02] There was a couple who saw a person apparently near Brianna's car or by her car after it had been hung up there on the foundation. And then there was a car that came towards them. And this was like a gray or silver Honda sedan. And it nearly hit them. Apparently it didn't.

[00:46:00] [SPEAKER_02] And then this car with this couple ended up driving off, then turning around and kind of following that silver Honda Civic or sedan. And so the implication, the idea is that the person standing near Brianna's car got into that silver Honda and then they took off together. And I don't know how well that witness sighting can be investigated now so many years later.

[00:46:29] [SPEAKER_02] And also that was a very common car then still a very common car. So but, you know, if there were any of the suspects that drove a car like that, maybe we could be getting somewhere. Before that, there was some DNA that was tested in the case and it was sent to Othram Labs. And they actually identified whose DNA was on it. And they spoke with those people and those people were cleared and the avenue was essentially closed, unfortunately.

[00:46:58] [SPEAKER_02] Some hope there, but it ended up being a dead end. However, I will say what's interesting about that now is that Vermont State Police, I want to say cross referenced that DNA versus 11 people. Did I get that number right, Lance? Yeah. 11 persons of interest that they had, which is a large number. I think we probably could name, I think, probably like seven or eight just and we'd be guessing. But I think we'd probably have somewhere in that range of guesses.

[00:47:26] [SPEAKER_02] But that's a large number to me. So I don't know what else they're doing or who they tested. But I would say that's somewhat inspirational.

[00:47:36] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah, I was actually just kind of cross referencing my notes on Brianna. And I noticed and I don't know why it didn't occur to me before. So the DNA was brought to law enforcement's attention on the 12th anniversary in 2016. And then they revealed the state police gave us the results of that in March of 2022. So all of these are falling on the anniversaries. And it's so it's so frustrating to see that.

[00:48:03] [SPEAKER_03] It's like, OK, well, now they feel like they have to say something because the anniversary is coming up. So they'll they'll put something together. And I think there's a forty thousand dollar reward for anybody who has information that's been issued by the FBI and the Vermont State Police. At least they announced that that was the reward. And that was in 2024.

[00:48:26] [SPEAKER_03] So, I mean, then you just get like the typical, you know, closing remarks line from law enforcement, which is like, you know, it's been too long. Someone needs to say something and, you know, we need answers. So, yeah, that's oh, and just to note, like we did say and Tim mentioned Othram and did mention the investigators who found the DNA. These are not like law enforcement. Othram isn't independently. Well, they're they're funded independently outside of law enforcement.

[00:48:54] [SPEAKER_03] And and the people who found the DNA, they are not law enforcement. They're independent investigators. So I don't know if you want to take that for whatever, but. I mean, these are just it's not like the it's not like a giant task force was put into place to find DNA.

[00:49:12] [SPEAKER_00] Right. And it's so disappointing when DNA doesn't pan out because it really can be that silver bullet a case needs. But like, I mean, we we were just you know, we covered the Delphi murders case and that was a case where they thought they had DNA and they were kind of like this is going to this is going to be it. And it turned out to be DNA from someone on the technician lab side who was so new to the job. They hadn't yet been put into the system in a big case.

[00:49:40] [SPEAKER_00] DNA is not always going to be what we want it to be, but cases can get solved without it. So I'm hoping that's the case here.

[00:49:47] [SPEAKER_01] So what needs to happen for Brianna to be found?

[00:49:52] [SPEAKER_03] Well, someone needs to just come to terms that they did something horrible and and and put in an anonymous call. I mean, yeah, more DNA can be found and they can go down that route. And, you know, we can wait for off from super quick with the whole thing. And thank God that they were brought into this this investigation in this process. But like even if even if some DNA is found and it's connected to somebody, that person will still just say no. Like that person will still say, yeah, I was in her car. That doesn't prove anything, you know.

[00:50:20] [SPEAKER_03] So, I mean, somebody just needs to like grow a set and place an anonymous call. Like you don't even have to really go to jail. You can figure out a way to do it where, you know, an answer can be brought to the family. And after a while, these cases go on for like decades. You know, just just give a little closure. Just, you know, just help a little bit.

[00:50:44] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah, certainly. I do hope I'm wrong in that people in that friends group, you know, might not know anything. I hope somebody does. I mean, obviously, someone does. You would hope that whoever abducted her told somebody somewhere along the line and those people are kind of off the hook or whatever. But and then usually that does happen at some point.

[00:51:07] [SPEAKER_02] But if you're talking hardcore criminals, they might tell other criminals who are used to not opening their mouth about that kind of thing. So I don't know. I do feel like the apple tree has been shaked quite a bit. But there's definitely definitely still tips and information that can come out from that area.

[00:51:28] [SPEAKER_00] What does this case mean to you both personally now that you've gotten to know the family, you've gotten to know Brianna's father, you've worked on it for so many years and you really have been shaking the apple tree very well for a long time. Is this a case that you're just kind of locked into and committed to just covering going forward for the future?

[00:51:46] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah, I mean, this is a shining example of how a family, you know, in this case, Bruce Maitland has taken this like unspeakable tragedy and he's trying to help other families and his nonprofit private investigations for the missing, which he graciously asked him and I to be on the board of is such a testament to just his will to honor Brianna. So it's a father honoring his daughter by helping other families. So the nonprofit doesn't look into Brianna's case. He wants to make clear that it's not a conflict of interest like that.

[00:52:16] [SPEAKER_03] It's literally what people Google in the search bar when they need help, when they don't have law enforcement to help them. So they type in private investigations for the missing. And he came up with that. And he's always like said how shocked he is that he like was able to identify SEO back before like SEO was like a thing. And it's just a shining example of how a family can can say like, we're not going to let this happen to other families.

[00:52:41] [SPEAKER_03] And it becomes more of like a life term commitment and less of, you know, let's put some episodes out there and spread the word.

[00:52:51] [SPEAKER_00] That is so wonderful. How can people get help out with that, with either Brianna's case, you know, supporting them in that respect or with private investigations for missing, which for the missing, which is such a terrific organization?

[00:53:04] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah, you can find the information about PIs for the missing at investigationsforthemissing.org. And as far as submitting a tip, you can do that via the I think the FBI or the Vermont State Police if you've got any tips. Actually, you could even send a tip to the PIs for the missing tip line, I believe. And that would get to the appropriate place as well.

[00:53:29] [SPEAKER_00] And then, I mean, not that anyone has to ask this, but how can people check out your shows? I mean, you guys have had a number of trips. We were also really into empty frames. So just shout out to that.

[00:53:41] [SPEAKER_03] We always love hearing that because empty frames is like, even though it's a show about a crime, like a serious crime, like you don't attach that amount of money to just like any old crime. It's still sort of our pressure release valve, even though it is a crime, you know. But, I mean, we're not talking about a 17-year-old going missing. It's a great show to just experience like a classic crime. So we appreciate you shouting that out.

[00:54:07] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah, I'm like the heist, the art, we love it. So, I mean, you guys do a great job with all your shows. But tell us about like where people can listen, where people can follow.

[00:54:16] [SPEAKER_02] Sure. Yeah, you can find us on your podcast app. We do Missing. We do Crawl Space weekly, empty frames, probably more monthly or quarterly at this point. And you can find us on social media or our website is crawlspace-media.com.

[00:54:33] [SPEAKER_00] Absolutely. And we just want to thank you guys for all that you've done. You're terrific. And it was just so nice to get to connect and surreal because I'm used to hearing your voices on my headphones. But now they're there, but you're talking to me and it's very odd.

[00:54:46] [SPEAKER_02] Well, thank you so much. We really appreciate it. And we appreciate what you guys do. And for helping out the case, Brianna's case here in talking about it is great. So thank you.

[00:54:57] [SPEAKER_00] We want to thank Tim and Lance for coming on the murder sheet. We really appreciate the work they've done for Brianna's case.

[00:55:04] [SPEAKER_01] Listen to Crawl Space and Missing and Empty Frames wherever you listen to podcasts. We're linked to their website in our show notes. Thanks so much for listening to the murder sheet. If you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover, please email us at murdersheet at gmail.com. If you have actionable information about an unsolved crime, please report it to the appropriate authorities.

[00:55:32] [SPEAKER_00] If you're interested in joining our Patreon, that's available at www.patreon.com slash murdersheet. If you want to tip us a bit of money for records requests, you can do so at www.buymeacoffee.com slash murdersheet. We very much appreciate any support.

[00:55:56] [SPEAKER_01] Special thanks to Kevin Tyler Greenlee, who composed the music for the murder sheet, and who you can find on the web at kevintg.com.

[00:56:05] [SPEAKER_00] If you're looking to talk with other listeners about a case we've covered, you can join the Murder Sheet Discussion Group on Facebook. We mostly focus our time on research and reporting, so we're not on social media much. We do try to check our email account, but we ask for patience as we often receive a lot of messages. Thanks again for listening.