The Lindsay Clancy Case: A Conversation with Claudia King

[00:00:00] [SPEAKER_02] I'm Anya, and today we're going to have an excellent, insightful guest on to talk about the Lindsay Clancy Case.

[00:00:06] [SPEAKER_00] Content warning. This episode contains extensive discussion of violence, postpartum depression, suicide, and murder, including the murder of children and an infant.

[00:00:17] [SPEAKER_02] Imagine a winter's day in 2023. A picture-perfect blue house in Duxbury, Massachusetts. A high-achieving, intelligent young woman living in the home. She's a labor and delivery nurse. Her name is Lindsay Clancy. Living there with her is her devoted husband, Patrick, a man working in the technology industry.

[00:00:39] [SPEAKER_02] Together, they shared three beautiful children. A daughter and two sons. Ages five years old, three years old, and eight months old. Cora, Dawson, and Callan.

[00:00:51] [SPEAKER_00] Now, imagine that winter's day, January 24th, 2023, shattered. That whole family, shattered. The children killed, horribly. Strangled with exercise bands. The perpetrator? Their own mother, Lindsay Clancy. Imagine blood everywhere from Clancy's attempt to cut herself to end her life. Imagine her throwing herself from the second-story window of her home. And she's a

[00:01:22] [SPEAKER_00] Imagine Patrick coming back to all of that.

[00:01:26] [SPEAKER_02] Now, Lindsay Clancy is on trial. What happened here isn't really up for debate. Lindsay Clancy killed her children. No one else did. She is the one who perpetrated those killings. But the question is, was she responsible for those horrible acts? The Commonwealth of Massachusetts is prosecuting her because they believed she was responsible for her actions.

[00:01:50] [SPEAKER_02] Clancy's defense team says that she was suffering from a combination of postpartum psychosis and possibly improperly combined medications.

[00:01:59] [SPEAKER_00] The Commonwealth says this was a calculated, premeditated act by a controlling, depressed woman who wanted to die and wanted to take her children with her. A family annihilator of sorts.

[00:02:13] [SPEAKER_02] The defense says that Clancy was a good, loving mother who simply slipped into a psychotic episode with fatal results. And so she is therefore not legally responsible for what happened.

[00:02:26] [SPEAKER_00] A jury in Massachusetts would be left to determine the defendant's fate.

[00:02:31] [SPEAKER_02] We wanted to learn more about this ongoing, troubling case, so we turned to one of our go-to true crime sources. Claudia King is the host and creator of Strong Enough, a terrific podcast about being a survivor and healing from trauma. Claudia is a survivor herself, as well as a former police officer and a current crime analyst on Court TV. She's delved deeply into this case and offered her insights on Court TV during their coverage of the Clancy trial.

[00:02:59] [SPEAKER_02] Now, she's kind enough to join us to discuss what she's seen so far in the case and what lingering questions remain for her. My name is Anya Kane. I'm a journalist.

[00:03:09] [SPEAKER_00] And I'm Kevin Greenlee. I'm an attorney. And this is The Murder Sheet. We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews, and deep dives into murder cases. We're The Murder Sheet.

[00:03:22] [SPEAKER_02] And this is The Lindsay Clancy Case, a conversation with Claudia King.

[00:03:27] [SPEAKER_03] First of all, Claudia, welcome to The Murder Sheet. We're so excited to talk with you today.

[00:04:16] [SPEAKER_03] Claudia and Kevin, I am so excited to be here. I love you guys so much. So this is really my honor. So thank you.

[00:04:22] [SPEAKER_02] Well, we love you too. And I guess, you know, I mean, we've known each other for a while now. We were so excited to see you at CrimeCon. And we think you're terrific. So I guess, you know, for I think a lot of our audience listens to you and knows you. But for those who don't, can you just give us a quick recap of, you know, your background and the show you do and all that?

[00:04:46] [SPEAKER_03] Absolutely. So I was born. No, I'm just kidding. Full biography. Right. Here we go. When I was seven. No. So I am a former police officer. I worked in North Carolina and in Colorado. From there, I went into domestic violence advocacy. And the reason that I did that was because as a police officer, I was actually the victim of domestic abuse by another officer who I lived with.

[00:05:15] [SPEAKER_03] So learned a lot about it, was able to become a survivor. And I wanted to use that experience for the greater good. And that morphed into a podcast called Strong Enough. And we talked to people who have been through some type of trauma or domestic violence in their life.

[00:05:36] [SPEAKER_03] And we don't necessarily, and I say we, it's really just me. But I talked to people more so not about what happened, but how they were able to move through it. Because I think it's really important for that one person out there to hear someone just like them or in a similar situation. I'm also a law and crime analyst now on Court TV, Nancy Grace, MK True Crime. I'm just doing all the murder shows, which I absolutely love.

[00:06:06] [SPEAKER_03] Last but not least, No Contest, The Coles-Rude and King Report is a new podcast that I'm doing with Josh Coles-Rude, who is an attorney in Arizona. So we do current cases. He gives the legal perspective. He is a former prosecutor turned to the dark side. He's a defense attorney now. And then I give the law enforcement perspective and the jokes.

[00:06:32] [SPEAKER_02] That sounds amazing. And I'm definitely going to be listening to that. And I just want to say for folks who are listening or want a new, I mean, your podcast is so much more than like true crime. It's about survivors. It's about moving on from tragedy. And it is a great listen. And I would really recommend it. I think a lot of our audience loves that and would be very interested. Yeah, it's awesome. You're awesome. So I will say, so, you know, this is this is a situation where we've been kind of like monitoring this case a little bit in the background.

[00:07:02] [SPEAKER_02] It is kind of gotten a lot of attention, understandably. But can you tell us a little bit about like sort of how you came to look into this horrible, horrible, tragic situation in Massachusetts involving Lindsay Clancy and her three young children?

[00:07:18] [SPEAKER_03] Absolutely. So I started following it because of court TV. So I was commentating on it. So I had to kind of dig into it. And I started right before jury selection. So I've kind of lived it through the last several weeks. And basically, Lindsay Clancy in January of 23 had a baby about eight months before.

[00:07:44] [SPEAKER_03] She had two other kids, as you mentioned, five and three years old, was suffering from postpartum depression and had been to many doctors, was seeking help, had actually been an inpatient in a facility for a short period of time, I think in 2022, just was struggling very much and came to a point where she had her husband go pick up some medication and dinner.

[00:08:13] [SPEAKER_03] And while he was gone, she went downstairs. She strangled all three children with exercise bands, which we actually saw today in the courtroom. They actually showed those. And so that was pretty horrific. And then she went upstairs to her bedroom. She slit her wrists, cut her throat. And I think it was too much pain. You know, I think she just couldn't continue.

[00:08:39] [SPEAKER_03] And so she then jumped out the second story window in a suicide attempt that was unsuccessful. However, she is now paralyzed, I believe, from the waist down. So she is currently on trial for the murder of these three children. Her defense is saying she had postpartum psychosis. The prosecution is saying she was a control freak and a manipulator and wanted to die but said,

[00:09:08] [SPEAKER_03] no one can take care of my kids like I can, so they're going with me.

[00:09:13] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah. One thing is interesting is usually when we see a trial, there's arguments about what actually happened. And it feels like in this case, there's a general agreement as to what happened. And the only question is why it happened. What exactly is the outcome that the defense wants in this trial?

[00:09:33] [SPEAKER_03] So the defense is looking for a not criminally responsible verdict or not guilty by reason of insanity, as most people kind of know it. What's interesting in Massachusetts, you guys probably know this, but when the defense brings forward this argument, the burden shifts to the prosecution. So in a lot of states, the defense is the one then that has to prove beyond a reasonable doubt

[00:09:58] [SPEAKER_03] that the individual is not or was not sane at the time, did not know what they were doing was wrong and could not stop themselves. But in Massachusetts, that burden shifts to the prosecution. So it's up to them to prove that she was competent, capable, and criminally responsible.

[00:10:20] [SPEAKER_02] In this trial so far, what sort of things have you seen the prosecution, the Commonwealth do, in order to meet that burden?

[00:10:30] [SPEAKER_03] So their very first witness was or is Patrick Clancy. So he has just finished his direct, and he's going to come back probably tomorrow or the next day for his cross. But he's a very interesting witness because he's Lindsay's ex-husband now. He is remarried to a doctor, but he supports her, seemingly.

[00:10:57] [SPEAKER_03] He has forgiven her and, you know, just wants her to find peace. But I think the prosecution utilized him very well because they gave him a lot of close-ended questions, so they got only the information that they wanted. And what that information showed was that the entire day of the incident, she was lucid. She was communicating well with him and others.

[00:11:26] [SPEAKER_03] Everybody could understand her just fine. Nobody sensed anything was wrong. So I think that might go a long way in the jury's minds, but we have a long way to go.

[00:11:37] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah, I saw some people criticizing the prosecution online. They felt like, oh, they're torturing this poor guy. He's already been through enough. Just as someone who's been in the system, who's been in law enforcement and sort of knows how this works, what can you say about that where I think people have this emotional reaction that may be understandable or they put themselves in that person's shoes and they're like, this is awful. But when you're actually looking at proving a case, why can a witness like that actually be really important, even if some of these questions are tough?

[00:12:07] [SPEAKER_03] Right, because he's the one that can give us the timeline. You know, he's the one that was there through all this. And I actually, somebody asked me that question today, like, why did they even call him? And I said, because he's the one that can lay everything out for us. And he's kind of the only one that can do it. But what I think, though, while it is really painful for him, it could also be empowering.

[00:12:30] [SPEAKER_03] Because if he believes in her innocence or believes that she should be found not criminally responsible, then he's now doing his part to help facilitate that. So theoretically, it could be an empowering moment for him, even though it's also torturous at the same time.

[00:12:51] [SPEAKER_02] Absolutely. You know, it's funny you mentioned that. I remember when we were in the Delphi trial, we got a lot of that, too, where we'd have timeline witnesses and we'd have people come up to us like, that was super boring. What was that all about? You know, where's the where's the fanfare? So it wasn't as much about the the pain of it, but it was more of like, I don't get why this is important. But when you know the case, you're like, this timeline is pretty crucial and it is important.

[00:13:15] [SPEAKER_02] And what you said about the timeline there and documenting her behavior through the day as much as possible seems like it will be it will go a long way for helping the jury make a decision.

[00:13:25] [SPEAKER_03] I totally agree with you. And those are the other witnesses that the prosecution had today thus far. They had a manager at CVS that spoke with Lindsay on the phone. And then they had, I think, a server at a restaurant where she ordered from who spoke with her on the phone. And again, both people were there to testify she was normal. We had a conversation. Nothing seemed odd or off about her.

[00:13:51] [SPEAKER_03] So, again, just going through that timeline of what was her mental state in these moments just before she did what she did.

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[00:17:12] [SPEAKER_02] And this is going to be so crucial because, you know, when we're talking about a diagnosis or a potential diagnosis like postpartum psychosis, what sort of symptoms would we be even looking at if we're saying this person is, you know, potentially or clearly suffering from that particular ailment?

[00:17:32] [SPEAKER_03] And that's the scary thing, Anya. Because a lot of times when you get to the level of psychosis, if you're hearing voices, you're trying to hide it. You're trying to appear completely normal to everyone because that's what the voices are telling you. You can't trust anybody.

[00:17:52] [SPEAKER_03] So, you know, you may see somebody who's kind of overly watching and feeling like they're being watched or trying to hide their movements. But when you get to that level of psychosis, I mean, it could be very difficult to identify that it's going on. The depression is so much easier, unfortunately.

[00:18:13] [SPEAKER_02] That is so tough. And as you said, it can really, you know, can make it harder to analyze. Is this a case of full-blown psychosis of the postpartum variety? Because my understanding is also like there's no blood test. There's no like here's the conclusive biological proof that you have this. Right.

[00:18:34] [SPEAKER_03] So we're going to have experts testify, but her brain can't testify. You know, we can't know for sure in those moments what was happening. So I feel like the experts might even kind of cancel each other out as they often do. And people are going to lean on probably Patrick's testimony and maybe some of the doctors who were treating her.

[00:19:00] [SPEAKER_02] And that's another factor that's really been brought up a lot. I've seen people talk about how the medical system failed her or she was improperly diagnosed or she was improperly medicated. Can you speak to what we've learned so far about that? Is there truth to that in your view? Or is this something that's just a complicated situation where, you know, people were trying to help her and it unfortunately just ended in tragedy?

[00:19:24] [SPEAKER_03] That's how it seems to me so far, honestly. You know, I know she has a malpractice lawsuit against some of the doctors, as does Patrick, which I find very interesting. So they have separate suits at this point. But we don't yet know if the system failed her because one of the things we did learn during Patrick's testimony was Zoloft that she was prescribed at some point and began taking.

[00:19:53] [SPEAKER_03] She wasn't honest with him about that. So she told him one day, I think I'm going to go to a doctor and get this Zoloft. And he's like, OK, like, where are you going to go? What are you going to do? Well, it came out she had actually already had the prescription in her purse and may or may not have started taking it. So what that led me to think with all these medications sitting around, was she creating her own cocktail to try to help herself?

[00:20:23] [SPEAKER_03] So did the system fail her or did she fail herself in an attempt to get better?

[00:20:31] [SPEAKER_02] And it's so tough because she was a labor and delivery nurse. So she may have known, you know, about medication to that extent. And, you know, I could understand someone feeling like, well, I, you know, everything's too slow. I'm not getting the help I need. I need to take this into my own hands.

[00:20:51] [SPEAKER_03] Right. I mean, I had a rash earlier this week and I was like drinking Benadryl like a cocktail because, you know, I was like, those numbers don't mean anything. I'll just take some more. That was only Benadryl. So all I was going to do was take a nap. But it's easy to see how someone could feel like I need to do something and I've got all these pills sitting here. Let me try a different combination.

[00:21:18] [SPEAKER_03] Maybe the doctors, you know, I should do more of this or less of that. I could definitely see that. And she was very, I don't want to say controlling because I don't know her, very type A. She was very type A. And being in a depressive state would be horrific for somebody like that because you can't make your brain do the things that you want to do.

[00:21:43] [SPEAKER_03] And so that would just be horrible for someone who's always on a schedule, who always does things a certain way. It could be maddening.

[00:21:51] [SPEAKER_02] Oh, man. Yeah, I can imagine that. I mean, has there been any testimony or indication so far about side effects of any of these cocktail medications that she's on or not on or it's kind of unclear what she's doing with? I mean, I'll tell you, I have terrible anxiety. And I remember, you probably remember this, Kevin. Like I went on medication for it and like I stopped being able to fall asleep for a while.

[00:22:15] [SPEAKER_02] And I just went, I had to go off it because the side of it was like, I'm literally losing my mind because I can no longer really effectively get a good night's rest. And it's very hard for me to fall asleep now. And so, you know, that's one thing I've been curious about. Like, has there been any indication that some of this is maybe behavior is coming from some of these medications?

[00:22:36] [SPEAKER_03] The defense did bring that up in their opening. So they had a list kind of of all the different medications. And in the opening, he did speak about a black box morning that was on at least one medication. Now, I understand what a black box morning is because I've taken medication with it. And it's like, it's serious, but it's not.

[00:22:59] [SPEAKER_03] But if you're a juror who never has, this might be really scary to you and it might sound kind of overinflated. But, you know, too, Anya, the list of side effects on every medication is four pages long, you know, and we all know like it doesn't affect everybody the same way.

[00:23:18] [SPEAKER_03] But I definitely think the defense is going to bring that in and talk about some of those side effects on the certain medications that could have compounded her issues.

[00:23:31] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah, I can imagine. And, yeah, I mean, I've been when I was a teenager, I had terrible acne, took Accutane. That's like the crazy like, you know, like, you know, there's a lot of side effects that they list with that. And it's like, you know, you're going to become suicidal and all this stuff. And, you know, they have to put like when something comes up in any sort of, I guess, like precursor to them releasing it, they have to put it on there.

[00:23:56] [SPEAKER_02] So it doesn't really necessarily if you know that, then it doesn't necessarily ring as like that's really important. But, you know, at the same time, you can consider it right.

[00:24:07] [SPEAKER_03] I think you have to. And, you know, Ambien, I think, was one of the things she was taking at some point. And we've heard some horror stories about Ambien and what it does to people. I saw monsters coming out of my couch once. That was the last time I took Ambien. But I would have text and phone conversations that I did not remember. And luckily, that's the worst I ever did. But stuff like that can happen. So I think it does need to be considered.

[00:24:36] [SPEAKER_00] Are there any risks involved with the defense pursuing this mental illness type of defense?

[00:24:42] [SPEAKER_03] I feel like they need to choose an adventure. And what I mean by that is either choose the mental illness or the psychosis or choose the medication. Because I think if we go both ways, it can be confusing to the jury. And it can feel like we're just throwing a lot of excuses at them because it's all we have.

[00:25:06] [SPEAKER_03] The other issue, Kevin, I feel like is if you have jurors who have had postpartum depression, they might judge her because, well, I didn't do anything terrible to my children. You know, I was able to heal. So you think people might be sympathetic if they've experienced the same thing. However, they might look at it in the opposite way of, well, I was able to get through it and be okay.

[00:25:36] [SPEAKER_03] So why couldn't she? So I think that is a potential danger that could come. But yeah, I just wish they would pick one or the other. Otherwise, I feel like it's just throwing too much at the jury. And it looks like excuses.

[00:25:52] [SPEAKER_02] Right. Having that concrete explanation to rest everyone's, you know, hats on, so to speak, I think, you know, is powerful. And this is why this happened versus maybe it was this, maybe it was that, maybe it was this.

[00:26:06] [SPEAKER_03] Exactly. I want that. I want the concrete answer. I mean, I'm not on the jury, but I think that's probably how they're feeling is they just want to know why did this happen.

[00:26:17] [SPEAKER_02] I was really intrigued by what you just said about maybe women who've been mothers on the jury. Possibly, you know, maybe there's a possibility of empathy there, but maybe there's also the possibility of like that didn't happen to me or I felt really depressed, but I never would have hurt my child. I would have hurt myself over hurting my child. You know, you mentioned kind of getting into this around, you know, jury selection.

[00:26:42] [SPEAKER_02] Were you able to kind of can you shout any insights on on how jury selection went or do we know the makeup of the jury in any respect? Or were they asking questions to kind of try to maybe get some of those moms out of there for the from the defense perspective?

[00:26:58] [SPEAKER_03] It's kind of a wide range. So they had 18. So they've got six alternates because it's going to be a long trial. So they wanted to have a lot of alternates. And there were a couple jurors that were chosen and then like came back, you know, the next Monday and said, you know what, I can't do this. Like I thought about it over the weekend. I just can't do this. And so we even had to throw some people out along the way.

[00:27:26] [SPEAKER_03] But the makeup is everyone from younger people, parents all the way to grandparents. I don't want to say senior citizens, but people with life experience, I'll say. So it is a wide array, which I think will be positive for the defense because you're not putting everybody in one particular bucket that might all think the same way. You've got a lot of buckets with a lot of different life experiences.

[00:27:55] [SPEAKER_03] I think for the defense to be successful, that's what they need.

[00:27:59] [SPEAKER_02] Do you think men on the jury is going to be potentially better for Lindsay Clancy than than women in general? Or do you think it's more about who has kids and who doesn't?

[00:28:10] [SPEAKER_03] So I kind of think men might be better. And let me tell you why. So men have no idea. Like, Kevin, have you ever had postpartum depression?

[00:28:23] [SPEAKER_00] No, sorry.

[00:28:24] [SPEAKER_03] Exactly. Exactly. So I feel like men are going to be more receptive to hearing and listening to the evidence. I used to always see male gynecologists because I'm like, they have no idea what I'm going through. So they're just going to listen to me. Whereas a woman is like, well, I don't deal with that. So what are you talking about? This could be the same way where the men are like, I have no clue.

[00:28:52] [SPEAKER_03] So I'm just going to listen to what these people tell me. And I'm going to base my decisions off what I hear in this courtroom.

[00:28:59] [SPEAKER_02] I could I could see that. And I could see the women maybe looking at this and saying, I would never do this. And whatever I went through would never have made me do this in such a calculating way of, you know.

[00:29:40] [SPEAKER_02] Right. Have we learned any more information on that?

[00:29:44] [SPEAKER_03] They definitely are harping on that. And something else I learned, Anya, was in the middle of this trip, he called her on the phone from CVS because he wanted they didn't have the exact medication that she had asked for. And so they had a generic. He called her. She didn't answer, but she called him right back a minute later.

[00:30:09] [SPEAKER_03] And he said, yeah, you know, we talked for a couple seconds, but she sounded busy. You know, she sounded preoccupied. I think this is a huge problem for them. So now in addition to what feels like planning with, like you said, her mapping out these locations and choosing a dinner spot that they had been to but normally would not choose for takeout, they would choose something closer.

[00:30:36] [SPEAKER_03] Now we have this in the middle of it, this phone call. And to me, that's a problem.

[00:30:45] [SPEAKER_00] And that does seem like it would be something difficult for the defense to overcome. What is the prosecution's theory as to why she did this and what happened?

[00:30:58] [SPEAKER_03] So I believe that it boils down to she was suicidal. So she wanted to. Well, they've said two things, actually. One of them is she just wanted to kill her kids and then feigned a suicide attempt. I mean, that would be really crazy considering now she's paralyzed. So not a good feigning attempt.

[00:31:21] [SPEAKER_02] No.

[00:31:22] [SPEAKER_03] The other is that she was very depressed and suicidal, but did not believe anyone could take care of her kids the way she would want them taken care of. So she was going to take them away, take them to the better place.

[00:31:39] [SPEAKER_02] So kind of almost like a family annihilator where it's like, you know, wow. I mean, and I think just from hearing that, the first one is definitely less sympathetic of like, oh, I'm going to kill my kids and then fake suicide. Right. But that also, as you said, that doesn't really hold a lot of water for me given the extent of her injuries.

[00:32:01] [SPEAKER_03] Exactly. You know, I think she did want to die in that moment. And I think she thought she could cut her wrists and slit her throat. But cutting is extremely painful. I mean, get a paper cut, right? Like, terrible. So I think when she started that, she realized, yeah, I don't think I can do this. Like, this hurts. This jumping out the window in her mind would be quick, painless.

[00:32:27] [SPEAKER_03] Unfortunately, it did not work out for her that way or fortunately, however you want to look at it. But it feels to me like a genuine attempt.

[00:32:36] [SPEAKER_02] Wow. I mean, it's so tragic. And we've seen so much discussion of this online. Like, people, some people saying some interesting things, other people saying some things that I think are pretty out of pocket, as they say. But I think it's gotten a lot of interest. And, you know, as someone who's covering it, as someone who's really dug as deeply into it as you have, why do you think that is? What about this case is resonating?

[00:33:01] [SPEAKER_03] I think because people can't understand how a mother would harm her children. It's very much like Alec Murdoch, or however we want to say his name on, you know, a particular day. People can't understand how someone would kill their son in such a violent, horrific way. So I think that's one of the reasons it has so much interest, and people want some type of explanation.

[00:33:29] [SPEAKER_03] They want to understand why she's different from me. Because if she's not different from me, could I do that? Well, I don't want to think about that. So you've got to find these reasons. Like, I saw one today online that Patrick was having an affair, and she found out about it. And so clearly she just wanted to kill everyone. Like, it made zero sense. And it just made zero sense.

[00:33:54] [SPEAKER_03] But, again, I think it's just people wanting to find a reason that could never happen to them. Because it's scary if I could be Lindsay or if you could be Lindsay. Kevin, you don't get to be Lindsay, so you're in the clear today again. But I think that's why.

[00:34:13] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah, I think you're really – I think that hits the nail on the head so much. And what you said about, you know, oh, it was Patrick's fault, like people. I've seen a lot of that online. Like, and it's almost – it's interesting to me because I see it from people defending Lindsay. But they're almost saying, well, he's another Rusty Yates or he's the one who made her have all these kids and he, like, takes away all of her agency, puts it on him. So then you still have someone to blame. And I find that – do you see a lot of that?

[00:34:42] [SPEAKER_03] Yes. You know, and even my mom said it today, like, well, why did he leave her alone with the kids if, you know, she had threatened violence against him? And I just think he trusted that everything was okay. You know, he's just kind of a naive dude that is going through life and hoping his wife gets better but can't imagine in a million years that she would ever do something like that.

[00:35:11] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah, you know, and it's – I think people should remember that, you know, making a mistake in the moment, does that warrant this level of punishment of losing all of your children and having your wife be basically gone from you forever as a result of that? You know, like – Right. We can all second-guess that decision, but I think, like –

[00:35:30] [SPEAKER_00] And I'm curious, if the defense carries the day and the jury finds that she's not criminally responsible for this horrible act, is this a situation where a year from now, two years from now, the doctors could say, okay, she's cured and she could be released?

[00:35:50] [SPEAKER_03] Theoretically, she could be. You know, it really, at that point, she would go to some mental hospital where she could get treatment. But at some point, yes, it would be up to her treating physicians to say she's fine and she could be released. And I think that's where a lot of people sometimes struggle because they feel like, well, how is that fair? How is that right or just?

[00:36:19] [SPEAKER_03] But if she truly isn't criminally responsible, then that's what she deserves, right? Like, she deserves to get treatment and then be free when she is deemed not a danger to herself or others. Maybe shouldn't have any more kids, but –

[00:36:36] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah, no, I've seen a lot online, too, of, like, she suffered enough. Like, she went – you know, and I understand that. I understand that, but I also think people should remember that there are three victims, three murder victims – or, you know, three victims who died here. You know, it's just interesting. It's like you kind of see a breakdown of people being like, she's evil. There's no way any mother could do this. This is evil. And then other people saying, no, it's totally insanity. She did nothing wrong, basically. She's just insane.

[00:37:06] [SPEAKER_02] And I don't know. It's just – it's really interesting to see the breakdown on this. And that's made it a contentious online discussion, I think.

[00:37:14] [SPEAKER_03] It has been really contentious. And we've seen some good ones, especially lately, you know, where people are very polar opposites. And again, I think if you look at those polar opposites, it's all things that I couldn't be. You know, that's how these people are feeling. Like, she's crazy. Well, I'm not crazy, so it's fine. Or she's evil. I'm not evil, so it's fine.

[00:37:38] [SPEAKER_03] It's like I'm going to be in one of these camps that could never include me because I don't ever want to think I could do that.

[00:37:47] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah, no, I think you're absolutely – I think so much of true crime is that. Is that avoidance or is that, you know, I wouldn't do that. I wouldn't get in the car with a serial killer. I wouldn't let that guy in my house. I wouldn't date that guy. You know, and it's a protective measure. And maybe it can be educational to a certain extent, but we should not overburden that with could never happen to me because we never know.

[00:38:12] [SPEAKER_03] Well, we've all done stupid stuff, right? I mean, I've done stupid stuff today. So nothing that's going to get yelled. Audio jail will be saved. I mean, not extra stupid, just little stupid.

[00:38:28] [SPEAKER_02] No, I, like, I feel that. Like, I mean, I remember, like, you know, I joke that, like, when I was drinking, I'm very lucky that I never crossed paths as a serial killer because I remember, like, there was, like, one time I, like, went through a terrible neighborhood in Brooklyn, totally blackout drunk, and, like, somehow got back to Grand Central. And I'm like, I'm glad that worked out for me. Like, I mean, like, I can imagine it becoming a true crime case pretty easily.

[00:38:53] [SPEAKER_02] And, but, you know, something like this, it's just, I think it pulls on people's heartstrings because it's also on the surface. I mean, maybe you have a different analysis of this having dug into it more. But on the surface, she seems like this really type A cool mom who's got all these three beautiful kids, a great husband, labor and delivery nurse with a great career. I mean, it's just, like, she seems like she's killing it, you know.

[00:39:17] [SPEAKER_02] And then for someone like this, I think, who may be aspirational to a lot of people, who may be, like, she's got it all together for her to do this, I think, frightens people.

[00:39:28] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah, and I'm really glad you brought that up because I think the other thing that shows us is that depression, anxiety can hit anyone. Because whether we want to believe she had the psychosis, like, put that to the side, she was certainly depressed. She had postpartum depression. So that can happen to anyone. And you can see this picture-perfect life. And what's going on inside is completely different.

[00:39:58] [SPEAKER_03] It's scary.

[00:39:59] [SPEAKER_02] Does this case, having delved into it, does this case make you think, like, we need to be doing something different as a society for postpartum moms? Are there things that are more supportive? Should there be more beds to allow someone like this to check themselves in somewhere? I mean, what would be some solutions that you could see helping women who might find themselves in a similar position?

[00:40:25] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah, I think talking about it first and foremost, because it's one of those things like domestic violence, substance abuse, or misuse. It's still very taboo to talk about. People don't want to admit that something's wrong with them, especially when they've just had a baby and their life is supposed to be so grand and amazing. So I think, firstly, being willing to talk about it.

[00:40:51] [SPEAKER_03] But I like what you said about having more beds available, maybe having a specific, you know, nationwide hotline that women could call at any hour and get that support no matter what's going on with them. And then have local resources where they can go and have one place. Because I think that's one of the other things that I see with Lindsay. She was going to different doctors trying to get help. So that's really hard to do.

[00:41:21] [SPEAKER_03] So you've got to have one point of contact if you're dealing with really anything or a care team. Everybody's got to be in communication. You're the coach of your team. And then you assemble the team, but everybody's got to be on the same page. I think that's really important for this condition, but really for really anything, you know, any type of chronic condition. You're the coach. Build your team. Keep everybody involved and informed.

[00:41:48] [SPEAKER_02] That's really well said. And, yeah, I love the idea of, like, you know, because I'm not a mom. But if I was and I was having feelings like that, I would want to put as much distance between me and my child as possible to not harm them. And, like, having a place where you can go, where they can take care of you and almost, you know, you're not out in the street or you're not forcing your husband and baby out in the street. Like, that feels like a practical solution, but it would cost money.

[00:42:16] [SPEAKER_02] And, you know, I think it's worth it, though, because I think even if many cases do not end as tragically as Lindsay's, you certainly have a lot of issues around postpartum depression and maybe even the much rarer postpartum psychosis.

[00:42:34] [SPEAKER_03] The one good thing this case is doing is allowing us to talk about it and allowing us to learn about the psychosis because I wasn't really familiar with it. And I still don't know all the ins and outs. And I'm anxious to learn them because maybe there are things I don't understand about it that explain her behavior.

[00:42:53] [SPEAKER_03] I don't know yet, but I think learning more and learning what treatment she went through because she went to an inpatient facility and was dismissed. So what happened there? Was it a failure of the system or was she OK? It'll be really interesting to see.

[00:43:15] [SPEAKER_02] Really well said. Yeah, no, I mean, that's the thing. I mean, when I was doing a little research into postpartum psychosis, it sounds like there's a lot about it that not even the experts know. I mean, we're kind of we're kind of in a in a way learning more about it. And I think there's been studies done and they've started to piece certain things together. I think some have linked it to maybe bipolar disorder. But I imagine like there's a lot there that we don't know. Unfortunately, I think women's health traditionally, especially mental health, have been understudied.

[00:43:44] [SPEAKER_02] But hopefully that can change going forward and we can learn more. You know, one thing you're doing such a great job analyzing this case and looking at it from all these angles. And, you know, I you know, I'm not going to ask you what you think at this point, because as you said, there's so much we've not heard. We've not heard from the defense yet. I think it's important for them to get their chance to say to counter some of this. And I think we have not heard everything the Commonwealth is going to say.

[00:44:10] [SPEAKER_02] But as as a former police officer, as someone who looks into all these cases, what are some questions that linger in your mind that you would like answered? What are some points of contention where maybe if it goes this way, it could be very good for the defense? Maybe if it goes that way, it could be very important for the Commonwealth.

[00:44:28] [SPEAKER_03] I'm really anxious to hear from her treating physicians. So not the experts per se, but the ones who were seeing her, because I have questions for them. You know, what did you prescribe her? What was she taking? I would love to see toxicology from her as well to see was she following these medication prescriptions or was she doing something on her own?

[00:44:55] [SPEAKER_03] Which I think would play very poorly for the defense if that's the case. On the flip side, if she was following everything to the T, that plays well for the defense. Because then it's like she was doing everything she was supposed to be doing. And then I want to hear from an expert about this planning and the phone call. If you're in the middle of a psychosis, can you do those things?

[00:45:22] [SPEAKER_03] You know, can you seem normal and appear normal to everyone else but be in this psychosis? Because, you know, my common sense brain says when she called Patrick, she should have said, Oh my God, I'm trying to kill the kids. Like, help. Like, that was her chance. And she didn't take it. Why? And maybe there's an explanation. I don't know yet. So I want to hear that as well.

[00:45:50] [SPEAKER_03] And that, depending on if there is an explanation, could go either way.

[00:45:56] [SPEAKER_02] So we'll just have to wait and see. Absolutely. So we'll be watching you on CORE TV analyze this. And we will be also listening to Strong Enough because it's awesome. Is there anything I would, that you wanted to mention that we did not ask about that you think it's important to understand this case or this topic in general?

[00:46:17] [SPEAKER_03] Man, I think we covered everything. I would just encourage people to have an open mind. You know, as you've said, we've seen people picking a side and choosing a direction. Wait till all the evidence comes through. You know, you can lean a certain way and you can have feelings, but don't let that turn into confirmation bias. Be willing to hear the evidence with an open mind and make a decision at the end.

[00:46:44] [SPEAKER_02] I think that is such good advice for any trial. I mean, the nature of a trial is to try to get us this evidence. And if you go in saying, well, I'm on this team, where's the fun in that? I mean, it's not really fun, but where's the interest in that? You know, I mean, then you're just going to be picking and choosing everything. Well, this goes on my side, but I'm going to throw this out. But it's much more interesting to do what you're doing and to really just sort of say,

[00:47:09] [SPEAKER_02] OK, here are my questions and let's see who has the evidence to best answer them.

[00:47:16] [SPEAKER_03] Absolutely. And I think everyone would be best served to do that. And we'd probably have a lot less fighting online. Yes. Then we could have an internet utopia. Wouldn't that be amazing? If we could solve that, we could just close shop.

[00:47:32] [SPEAKER_02] Claudia, I think you just fixed online true crime. If people can just listen to you, then I think we'll be OK. But awesome. Well, thank you so much for discussing this really sad and troubling, but very interesting case with us. We really appreciate it. Yeah.

[00:47:45] [SPEAKER_03] Thank you guys so much.

[00:47:47] [SPEAKER_02] Thanks to Claudia for talking to us. We always really enjoy getting to chat with her. She's awesome. And so is her beautiful and cute dog. Listen to Strong Enough wherever you listen to podcasts. It's a great show. We'll be linking to it in our show notes. And also check out Claudia's analysis on Court TV. Give her a follow on Instagram at RealClaudiaKing. That way you can keep up with what she's doing.

[00:48:10] [SPEAKER_00] Thanks so much for listening to The Murder Sheet. If you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover, please email us at murdersheet at gmail dot com. If you have actionable information about an unsolved crime, please report it to the appropriate authorities.

[00:48:30] [SPEAKER_02] If you're interested in joining our Patreon, that's available at www.patreon.com slash murdersheet. If you want to tip us a bit of money for records requests, you can do so at www.buymeacoffee.com slash murdersheet. We very much appreciate any support.

[00:48:54] [SPEAKER_00] Special thanks to Kevin Tyler Greenlee.

[00:48:56] Thank you.