The Murder of Brian Thompson: The Case of Luigi Mangione: A Conversation with Attorney Brian Buckmire

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[00:03:16] [SPEAKER_00] I'm Anya, and today we're going to speak with an attorney about the latest twists and turns in the case of Luigi Mangione.

[00:03:24] [SPEAKER_03] Content warning. This episode contains discussion of murder.

[00:03:28] [SPEAKER_00] The news came as a shock to many, many people in the true crime community. Luigi Mangione pleaded guilty in federal court. He admitted to stalking UnitedHealthcare CEO Brian Thompson, to using a ruse to email the healthcare insurance company in order to get a lock on Thompson's location, to traveling to New York City with a firearm, to following the 50-year-old husband and father in the early morning darkness in Midtown Manhattan on December 4, 2024,

[00:03:58] [SPEAKER_00] and to shooting Thompson dead on the street.

[00:04:01] [SPEAKER_03] To many, the now 28-year-old Mangione was more than just a defendant. He became an online folk hero thanks to the ever-present resentment towards the health insurance industry. A fandom rose around him. So, to some of those people, people who were essentially rooting for him, the news was a blow. They seemed to want him to fight. Others, perhaps the more conspiratorially minded, declared that he was a patsy.

[00:04:29] [SPEAKER_03] Someone set up by the corrupt system. To them, this news must have been especially unwelcome.

[00:04:36] [SPEAKER_00] But here's the thing. It's not over. Mangione pled guilty to two stalking-related charges. Interstate stalking resulting in death and cyber-stalking through interstate facilities resulting in death. His sentencing hearing for those charges will be on December 18, 2026.

[00:04:55] [SPEAKER_03] But that still leaves the state charges. In New York, he still faces the following. Murder in the second degree. Criminal possession of a weapon in the second degree, third degree, and fourth degree. And criminal possession of a forged instrument in the second degree.

[00:05:13] [SPEAKER_00] As a reminder, the judge on the federal case is United States District Judge Margaret M. Garnett. U.S. Attorney's Office for the Southern District of New York, often called SDNY, has been prosecuting the federal case. The U.S. Attorney there is Jamie Donald at this point, and the team consists of Assistant U.S. Attorneys Dominic Gentile, Jun Zhang, Alexandra Messeter, and Thomas John Wright. Meanwhile, Manhattan District Attorney's Office under District Attorney Alvin Bragg

[00:05:42] [SPEAKER_00] is prosecuting the state case. That team consists of Joel Seidman, Kristen Bailey, Zachary Kaplan, Christopher Provost, and Lisa Del Piso. The judge on that case is Justice Gregory Caro of the New York State Supreme Court.

[00:05:58] [SPEAKER_03] Defense Attorney Karen Friedman Agnefilo represents Mangione in both his federal and state cases, along with her husband, Mark Agnefilo, and Jacob Kaplan.

[00:06:09] [SPEAKER_00] So those are all the people involved. All the attorneys looking to get Mangione a major prison sentence, and all those looking to get him a more lenient one at this point. But we want to know more about what's happened so far. What's the strategy behind all this? Why would Mangione plead guilty? What's going to happen next? Will double jeopardy kick in? What kind of sentence could he be looking at potentially? To find out all of that, we're going to talk with an expert attorney who will share his thoughts on things like jury nullification,

[00:06:39] [SPEAKER_00] what prohibition-era trials have to do with this case, double jeopardy, and the unlikely but possible way that Friedman Agnefilo's gambit could pay off big time for her client. My name is Anya Kane. I'm a journalist.

[00:06:54] [SPEAKER_03] And I'm Kevin Greenlee. I'm an attorney. And this is The Murder Sheet. We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews, and deep dives into murder cases. We're The Murder Sheet.

[00:07:07] [SPEAKER_00] And this is The Murder of Brian Thompson, The Case of Luigi Mangione, a conversation with attorney Brian Buckmeyer.

[00:08:00] [SPEAKER_00] Before we get into this interview, let's introduce our guest. Let's tell you a bit about him because he's terrific. This is Brian Buckmeyer. He is a criminal defense attorney who previously served as a senior staff attorney at the Legal Aid Society. He's also a legal contributor for ABC and has provided extensive and insightful commentary about various big trials that we all like to follow.

[00:08:23] [SPEAKER_03] In that capacity, he has lately delved into the world of true crime podcasting for ABC. He hosted Bad Rap, The Case Against Diddy, and Burden of Proof, Luigi Mangione. Today, we're going to talk about the latter. Brian will give us insights on the case. These are things that will hopefully help us all better understand what's ahead in this case.

[00:08:47] [SPEAKER_00] Well, Brian, thank you so much for joining us today. We really appreciate it. Oh, my pleasure. Thanks for having me. Absolutely. I guess to start off with, let's just go for it. Tell us about your project on the Luigi Mangione case.

[00:09:00] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah, so Burden of Proof, Luigi Mangione. For those of you who watched and listened to us for Bad Rap, The Case Against Diddy, where we did a podcast for the Sean Coase trial, you're in for it's free because we're doing the weekend. But this time it's Luigi Mangione. And what we've done is anticipation of what would have been a trial. We've put together episodes leading you up to what would have been the trial. But because we've got that kind of cinematic turn of events

[00:09:28] [SPEAKER_02] when he pled guilty in federal court, we pivoted and we talked about them. We talked about Luigi Mangione. We talk about Brian Thompson. We talk about investigation. We put it all together for you to see.

[00:09:40] [SPEAKER_00] That's amazing. And I feel like a lot of people are going to want this because we didn't get that trial. So it's like, well, what's all the evidence? What's everything? So they're going to be getting that with this project.

[00:09:50] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah, absolutely. The way that ABC is doing their podcasts, doing their shows, trying to really meet you, the listener and the viewer, where you're at, I've got to imagine that when he does ultimately get sentenced in December, we'll do something better. Because we're really walking you through it all from the very beginning all the way up into the most recent events.

[00:10:13] [SPEAKER_00] I guess one thing, since you guys are doing this deep dive, since you're doing this amazing deep dive, can you talk to me a little bit about perhaps, I think people have been following this case. They're aware of the general facts. What's something that you found out or an aspect of this case that surprised you as you've kind of gotten into this?

[00:10:32] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. So one thing I really liked about this was in this deep dive, we didn't just talk about the crime. We talked about the people involved, whether it be Brian Thompson, Luigi Mangione himself, or it's not a person, but the healthcare insurance industry as it is, as an entity. It was going into who Luigi Mangione was that really surprised me. Because I think we have like our initial concepts of who he was. When we first heard about this case, my first thought was the movie John Q with Demsel Washington.

[00:11:01] [SPEAKER_02] But then kind of unpacking that and learning who he was was surprising.

[00:11:05] [SPEAKER_00] Tell me more about that. Like what do you think would shock people the most about who Luigi really is?

[00:11:12] [SPEAKER_02] I think his background in terms of where he came from, in terms of he's, I wouldn't take a small town in Baltimore, Maryland area, but a substantial size town where his family is known for owning the golf course and other small businesses around the neighborhood. It would be like very common for people to say, oh, I'm getting many of the Mangione estate or the Mangione golf course. He went to a very prestigious school. And there's not a person that we would have thought.

[00:11:42] [SPEAKER_02] And we got to speak to people who actually interacted with him while he traveled and get the reaction about learning about him and seeing that kind of transition of knowing him early on, all the way to the allegations and learning about him was interesting.

[00:11:55] [SPEAKER_00] That is so fascinating. And it's like, yeah, you're getting that firsthand account of what did this guy seem like, which I think is what so many people want when they hear about a high profile crime. Like who could have done this? Why? What did they seem like? Were there red flags?

[00:12:09] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. And that's the interesting part that I don't think a lot of people saw this coming. As interesting as it was, and even when he pled guilty and he said, I plan this out. I, even when the shock approach, something we didn't know until he said it, that he called in his UnitedHealthcare Group, pretending to be a wealthy investor, and they gave him information. And that's how he basically put this all together. And it's like, whoa, like even doing the podcast,

[00:12:38] [SPEAKER_02] he listening to his background being like, I didn't see that coming. And putting it all together is, is make sure a wild story.

[00:12:44] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah, it really, it really does. And I mean, one thing that I was curious about, you know, you mentioned kind of getting into the real people behind this. And one aspect of this has been surprisingly controversial is the victim, Brian Thompson himself, being this healthcare insurance executive, a powerful person in that controversial space. I've seen in my years of true crime podcasting,

[00:13:08] [SPEAKER_00] I've seen more hate for the victim than I think is normal or what you typically see. I mean, there's always trolls, right? In any case, but with this, it's like people are basically saying, I'm glad he's dead. And what were you able to find out about him just as a person beyond the role he served as you put this together?

[00:13:31] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. So first and foremost, we saw, I think a lot of what you're describing and I, and I agree with it. I think for a lot of us during the podcast, we saw that Brian Thompson stopped becoming a person and instead became an icon. And icons are easy to love and hate. We don't have to give them the same respect that we give people. Brian Thompson became less of an individual and more of an icon that is CEOs for healthcare insurance companies. And so we kind of started there and said,

[00:13:59] [SPEAKER_02] we can't just have an episode about that. We have to know who Brian Thompson is. He's a person. He is a father. he's a husband. And we got to learn about a very American story about a kind of blue collar worker that rolls his way up through this industry and really distinguished himself in a very positive way. Now, now, is it obvious that we're talking about the healthcare insurance industry and people have a feeling about that industry? Yes. We didn't avoid that,

[00:14:25] [SPEAKER_02] but we still wanted to explain who Brian Thompson was and make him more than just a figure, make him a person.

[00:14:32] [SPEAKER_00] I think that's so important. And just commend you all for doing that and commend you for doing that because I think it can get lost. And the context is certainly very important, but people are still human beings. What was something, you know, you mentioned him kind of rising up, but what was something about his personality or what he was like that may have surprised you or that you were kind of, you know, interested to learn about Brian Thompson?

[00:14:56] [SPEAKER_02] For me, it was more the beginnings than it was his rise, just because I think we all like a good, humble beginning rise story, right? It's why we watch so many movies. It's why we watch so many shows. We like to see people rise. And it was just seeing where he came as a, as a family, where he started and then seeing that kind of grit and rise to a higher level within an industry.

[00:15:24] [SPEAKER_00] Absolutely. One thing I was curious, you mentioned kind of the third character in all of this is the healthcare insurance industry. And tell me a little bit about delving into that and perhaps the well of anger. In American society about that and how you were able to put that as part of this kind of tapestry that you're creating to tell this story. Yeah.

[00:15:47] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. So understand a few things. One, I'm Canadian. Yes. I came to the United States when I was 19. I'm 38 now. So if you're doing math, basically 50, 50 at this point. But the majority of my healthcare and healthcare experience has been Canadian. And we have very American producers. So it's interesting them writing about the frustration that Americans have about healthcare insurance. Me approaching the idea,

[00:16:17] [SPEAKER_02] like you guys don't have universal healthcare. And I understand there are flaws to that, but that's one error to me. And then there were interesting parts of my own life where my wife and I have one child. We're working on a second. We're going through IDF and we have great insurance. We have above average income. And I got frustrated. And I remember doing this podcast and going through that experience and being like,

[00:16:46] [SPEAKER_02] we make far more money than the average American. We have great health insurance, like borderline European-esque. And we both have graduate degrees. And I can't understand this. This is frustrating. And the first thing I was talking about, I understand why people feel this way about Luigi Mangione. I was like, I get it. I get it. If I had less resources and less money and less options, I understand the frustration, I understand the anger. And that was an interesting learning curve thing.

[00:17:16] [SPEAKER_00] That is amazing that you have also, and the perspective of having a different system that you grew up with. And then you're coming here and it's like, what are we doing?

[00:17:26] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. Like Canadians get mad, but we're not like getting a gun mad at one of our health insurance. So it was a foreign concept for me. And then having friends to tell me like, no, like, forget it. Like my mother is recovering from stage one, multiple myeloma. Oh, wow. She is getting her cancer treatment in Canada. And because I have the ability to help financially, having healthcare and care that with a little extra money is phenomenal. But my friends were going through similar situations where their parents are going

[00:17:55] [SPEAKER_02] through healthcare here. I was like, guys, like what? And he's like, I just got to pay a lot of money, Brian. Like I'm a big lawyer and I got to help on my mother. And this is like the system. And I was like, wow, that's yeah. So I learned a lot from that, from that third person in the story.

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[00:21:25] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah, no, I mean it's fascinating. And I mean I always said this in our Luigi Mangione coverage. Like I had a bad situation with UnitedHealthcare and I remember making violent comments about it. You know, like not actually going to do anything but just like I hate this, you know. And it's when you're through it, you can see why this case, the reaction was what it was. I mean one thing I've always been curious about is something I hear from people where they really kind of get into health insurance.

[00:21:52] [SPEAKER_00] They almost are like the health insurers are part of the story about why it's bad, but they're not the whole story. Like it's a lot more complicated than simply evil health care insurance executives. Like it's the whole thing is broken from top to bottom. Was that something you found? Were you able to find some of that complexity or what are your thoughts on that?

[00:22:12] [SPEAKER_02] So I think especially for the podcasts because one, I'm Canadian. Two, I'm just a lawyer. I don't dive into the medical aspect that deep. We do like a very surface level. These are what people feel. This is what the thoughts are out there about this industry. And these are going to be people during jury selection that you've either got to read out, have in, or just accept that these are the reviews.

[00:22:42] [SPEAKER_02] And how are these thoughts going to impact a trial? And that was the conversation we had because me learning about how people feel about American health care and then seeing that this is a very universal feeling amongst people. I'm looking at this as a practitioner in the law and saying, I don't know how to get rid of that person on the jury.

[00:23:03] [SPEAKER_02] Someone's going to have an either direct or indirect story about health care, and that's going to impact their biases, the way they interpret information about Luigi Mangione. And we talked about a jury nullification in this story because that was a thing that we really thought could be possible if this went to trial.

[00:23:22] [SPEAKER_00] Tell me more about that in terms of, you know, there seemed like to me a lot of evidence against Mangione, like, you know, like a pretty bombshell case when you look at it. But there was that possibility. And, you know, now that we're not going to have an outcome, I think it's probably safe to say, what were your viewpoints on how a trial might go? Did you feel like the prosecution had a strong enough case or did you feel like there was a decent chance of nullification or even acquittal?

[00:23:52] [SPEAKER_02] So I didn't think acquittal because acquittal would suggest like 12 people all going to be on the same page. Yeah. But I definitely was the legal nerd kind of walking in the halls of ABC, banging my drum, being like, hey, guys, can I tell you about like prohibition in this country? How like during prohibition, especially in the Northeast, taverns and tavern owners and bar keeps would be arrested and prosecuted for selling alcohol because it was prohibition.

[00:24:20] [SPEAKER_02] And then they would try to get those tavern people's local community to convict them. And the jury was like, I drink at O'Malley's bar in Boston. I'm not going to convict him. And there's a history of jury nullification based on prohibition and Americans' feelings about alcohol at that time.

[00:24:41] [SPEAKER_02] And I said, do you think that people kind of feel similar about their health insurance companies that they did about prohibition back then? Because one was saying, I can't get a beer at the end of the day. And you guys are really mad about this. This is saying grandma's not getting her cancer treatment because the insurance company won't cover it, even though on paper it says it does. Because I feel like people are going to be a lot more angry about grandma and that could lead to jury nullification.

[00:25:10] [SPEAKER_02] And so that's how I was we were like kind of talking about it like it could be a thing.

[00:25:16] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah, I feel like you were spot on. And that's a really I love the historical nerdy law stuff because that is exactly and you picked it. I mean, like that would piss everyone off. But I mean, geez, when it's life or death, it's different.

[00:25:30] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah, you're mad about the beer. You're definitely mad about the health insurance. And so we talked about the health insurance companies. We talked about people's feelings about it. We didn't dive deep into it to get any kind of answer one way or another just because I don't think that's at least my lane. But I think my lane and the lane in this podcast was touching on those topics and then brushing it onto this case and being like, how is that going to impact jury selection?

[00:25:56] [SPEAKER_02] Could the prosecution have a strong case where they're like, this is Mangione on video shooting him? And people are like, I don't see anything. My grandma like didn't get okayed by that. I was like, we have to talk about that.

[00:26:11] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah. And it's one of those things that people are so passionate about. I could almost see people slipping through voir dire and being like, yeah, I don't have any, you know, like I'm fine. And then getting on the jury and being like, you know, like three or four.

[00:26:22] [SPEAKER_02] I thought three or four is. Because that's not wild to me that three or four people with that mentality can slip through.

[00:26:28] [SPEAKER_00] Oh, yeah. I completely agree. I think they would have, it would have been tough because it's such a universal experience in the United States. And one thing I was wondering, given this, given, you know, what, you know, could have happened with a jury, were you surprised that he ended up pleading guilty like he did? No.

[00:26:49] [SPEAKER_02] No. Because it's very easy for me to say this as a legal analyst, having a very logical, thoughtful experiment of like, based on this issue and picking a jury, it could. And this, when we just mentioned his life is not in my hands at this point. If I was a defense attorney, I would not risk life in prison based on that very plausible plot experiment.

[00:27:12] [SPEAKER_02] I think what Ken Friedman is doing is taking the case more into their hands based on a legal argument that's a bit of a long shot. But I think it controls his destiny a lot more than hoping someone or someone sneak into the jury to nullify the prosecution's case.

[00:27:35] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah, I was surprised that I saw a lot of people who I would characterize as like Mangione fans, you know, perhaps reacting very negatively to the defense and saying, oh, they did a bad job. And I was so impressed. Like, I thought I thought they were doing some judo moves there in a way that, as you said, kind of potentially takes his fate more into their hands. Like, I thought it was brilliant. I mean, what are you what are your views of the defense? And I guess the different sets of prosecutors, like the talent of the attorneys on both sides of this. Who do you feel like has been doing well?

[00:28:05] [SPEAKER_00] Anyone not not not doing so great?

[00:28:07] [SPEAKER_02] I also practice in the Southern District of New York. So I'm going to be like smart about talking about prosecutors and eventually have a case with. But I don't think there are bad or unintelligent AUSAs in the STNY. There's a reason why they're there. Sure. I only think I think might have been a misstep would either be the state and the federal prosecution kind of following over themselves to who prosecuting truths. I think that gave the defense a lot of ammunition to make arguments.

[00:28:36] [SPEAKER_02] But from like a line prosecutor in line AUSA job. No, they did their job. They made the arguments. And they took the facts as they came. But for the defense, I will say this. And I think I've described it this way a couple of times. I fancy myself a pretty good defense attorney. I have made arguments that people have said are borderline a little arrogant, Bronny. Like you're not going to win that. And I win.

[00:29:06] [SPEAKER_02] And I kind of have that cocky mentality a little bit. But what Karen Agnifelor is doing is something that's too crazy for me. Like she is making an argument that has to thread the needle so well that she's either going to be an absolute genius and we will all be like, wow, she did that thing. Or one thing will be off and Manjone is screwed.

[00:29:34] [SPEAKER_02] And so it's, it's, and I'll explain it like this. Taking the plea in federal court is smart because if he's convicted, he goes to prison in federal court rather than state. The state of New York has more stringent and stronger double jeopardy laws that in pleading guilty in federal court, you can go to the state and say same, same. And if same, same, double jeopardy, get dismissed. But it hinges on one argument that I think is difficult for her.

[00:30:03] [SPEAKER_02] It hinges on saying that stalking resulting in the death and murder in the second degree. The idea of crossing over state lines to find someone to ultimately kill them is so similar to just pulling a trigger that the federal government and the state government shouldn't be prosecuted in two different crimes. That's the heart of our argument.

[00:30:30] [SPEAKER_02] And if the trial judge or the appellate judge disagrees with her, then that plea that Manjone gave where he said, I called in, I found out where he was, I followed him across state lines, and I shot him and he died. That can be used in his state trial where he's looking at life in prison.

[00:30:55] [SPEAKER_00] Wow. So pretty high stakes. Yeah.

[00:30:59] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. Like, again, either she is going to be a genius and she's going to get the state case dismissed. His sentencing guidelines in the feds are anywhere from 24 years to 30 years and five months. He's got no bad criminal history. He's a good kid under the menace. Maybe she pulls off some legal judo. He gets below guidelines. Say he gets 20 years. He's already been for three. That's 17 years. Good behavior.

[00:31:26] [SPEAKER_02] Maybe he's out in 14 years or so. He's 28. You know what? The 30s aren't that great anyways. 40s, they're amazing. And when you were looking at the death penalty to start with, saying you're going to miss like a decade of your life is a win in a sense. And I think that's the ultimate goal, that if she is right and Karen Niffel gets it the way that she wants it, genius. I mean, I take my, not a hat, but I take my tie off of her.

[00:31:57] [SPEAKER_00] I hate to put you on the spot. Do you think it's going to work out that way? Because to my cynical ear, it sounds like everything has to go right in many different ways. And that's unlikely.

[00:32:08] [SPEAKER_02] I mean, and that's what it is, right? You've got to get the judge to agree that it's not double jeopardy in the state. You've got to get that case to get dismissed. You've got to get the judge and federal court to go below sentencing guidelines and not go above guidelines, even when the state and the fans are asking for like 60, 50 years maybe. Right? So all these pieces got to sit together. Hey, maybe she's better than me. And that's a reality.

[00:32:37] [SPEAKER_02] But that's tough.

[00:32:39] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah, that is really tough. But I mean, that's fascinating. And it sounds like at the very least, like the vision's there and maybe this is the best shot for a good outcome. Is that fair to say? Or do you think there would have been something better? Okay. Yeah.

[00:32:50] [SPEAKER_02] Yes. I would say this is like, I don't know, a sport or shooting analogy. Like, I think you're right. Like you can see the target, but that's far. And there's a couple of branches and leaves and things that could knock you out of your way or hey, it's a good plan if it works.

[00:33:10] [SPEAKER_00] If it works, right. I'm wondering, you know, one aspect of this case I did want to ask you about that I think, you know, maybe we can kind of wrap up with is just the kind of like true crime fandom we've seen around this case. And this is around Luigi Mangione. What were you able to find out about that? And like, we talked about some of the anger at health insurance, but it goes beyond that. Like I see posts about like, oh, look at his shoes. He's wearing a sweater. Like there's almost like it's oh, he almost gets talked about like a K-pop band member.

[00:33:38] [SPEAKER_00] And like, I think that disturbs a lot of people. I'm not going to lie. Like, I think a lot of people are like, that's kind of freaky because whatever we feel about insurance, we shouldn't be talking about a murder defendant like that. What are your thoughts on that? What were you able to find about that kind of subculture that developed around Mangione?

[00:33:57] [SPEAKER_02] I will say this. I don't have it, but pretty privilege is a gift.

[00:34:03] [SPEAKER_00] Oh, come on, Brian. You have it. Let's come. Too modest. I appreciate it.

[00:34:09] [SPEAKER_02] Thank you. I've got a wife and a son who humble me enough. I know I don't got it. It's OK. My son likes to say, Daddy, you're cute. I'm handsome. I'm like, ooh, that's a lot for a four-year-old. It's so cute. Yeah. Yeah. But I also kind of get it. Like, I go to NDC. I have male clients.

[00:34:33] [SPEAKER_02] I'm speaking to them in the common area when you speak to your clients who are incarcerated. And Luigi Mangione walks by me without a care in the world. And he's just like, you seems happy. And he's like, I've seen him many times at NDC. Looking at his notes. Going over his case with his attorneys. And I look at him and I was like, I get it. He has, like, an aura to him. Like, he's got, like, a sense of confidence.

[00:34:59] [SPEAKER_02] But I don't see why people are not, like, looking at the burning fact that he's accused of murdering someone. But I guess if you look past that, I guess the confidence and the bravada and the eyebrows do it for people. Like, he's a good-looking guy. I mean, Timothy McVeigh, like, massive shooters. They've gotten love letters sent to them. And they've done, I don't know. I don't know what it is. People like bad boys against.

[00:35:27] [SPEAKER_00] I think you're right. And I think it does help that he's conventionally handsome. And I mean, I think that that goes a long way. I mean, it's kind of sad to think about because it's like, it shouldn't be about that. But at the same time, it is.

[00:35:42] [SPEAKER_02] It's true. But I've already told ADC if I'm accused of anything, use my best-looking headshots because I need that manhione treatment. I need that, like, different cure of law.

[00:35:51] [SPEAKER_00] You do. You do. You know? It shouldn't be a thing, but it seems to be a thing. It, I completely agree. And I mean, and like, especially in our visual culture. Like, back when you're reading the newspaper, what you see, like, a blurry black and white photo of someone. Okay, whatever. But, like, it's TikTok. It's social media. It's selfies. Like, that's where we live now.

[00:36:09] [SPEAKER_02] There were rows of people in court for hearings. There were people that came from different countries just to see him for a hearing. That's not something I've seen a lot, either as a defense attorney for, oh God, I'm getting old, 12 years now. And I've been doing this TV thing for about seven, eight. There's been fandom, but not like this.

[00:36:35] [SPEAKER_00] One more question, then I want to give you some time back, because I know we have a hard stop. Was it giving Manson vibes when you were talking to those people, or were they, you know, like, was it a little bit more erudite than that, I guess?

[00:36:47] [SPEAKER_02] I would say the latter. I think when people talked about Manjioni, and we interviewed some of them on the podcast, the first few comments were like, oh yeah, he's like, this person who's good looking, and whatever. I mean, once you get to like the third, fourth, second, further questions, it really did become about a connection that they have with their frustrations with the healthcare system. And this was just an easy outlet to connect to that.

[00:37:12] [SPEAKER_02] So I think once you got past that initial, he's so handsome, and his eyebrows, and look at him walking. Like the third question was, and this is how I feel about health insurance for myself, my loved ones, and what he's brought to the attention, the conversation, and you're like, okay.

[00:37:28] [SPEAKER_00] Is there anything I didn't ask you about, about this project that you want to mention? Where can people listen before we wrap up?

[00:37:35] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah, so I think you can check it out wherever you need to listen to podcasts. You want to do it be Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and also you can sign on to, if I get this correct, I think it's like NC True Crime Plus. It's a subscription program. We do not just get Bernard Roof, Luigi Mangione, but you also get a plethora of the kind of 2020, like this massive catalog with true crime stories. So I'll definitely check it out wherever you can.

[00:38:05] [SPEAKER_00] Amazing. Yeah, people should check this out. It's awesome. And it's going to be also preparing you for whatever the outcome is, I think. I think that it's got that information that you need where we're not going to get the trial, at least at the federal level. So let's figure out what all the facts are. So Brian, I want to thank you so much for coming on. Really appreciated this conversation. And yeah, really would encourage everyone to listen.

[00:38:30] [SPEAKER_01] My pleasure. Thanks for having me and everything that you do on The Murder Sheet. Absolutely. Thank you.

[00:38:35] [SPEAKER_00] Thanks so much to Brian for talking to us. Check out Burden of Proof, Luigi Mangione, wherever you get your podcasts.

[00:38:42] [SPEAKER_03] Thanks so much for listening to The Murder Sheet. If you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover, please email us at murdersheet at gmail dot com. If you have actionable information about an unsolved crime, please report it to the appropriate authorities.

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[00:39:26] [SPEAKER_03] Special thanks to Kevin Tyler Greenlee, who composed the music for The Murder Sheet, and who you can find on the web at kevintg.com.

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