The Murder of Faith Hedgepeth: The Trial of Miguel Enrique Salguero-Olivares: Day Ten: The Defense Rests

[00:00:00] [SPEAKER_01] I am in love with Miracle Balm from our new sponsor, Jones Road Beauty. Now, let's be clear, I'm not the biggest makeup wearer in the world. Sometimes I skip wearing makeup because it just doesn't feel good. It's too cakey, it looks bad or off, and sometimes I'm just in way too much of a rush to apply it well. But when I put on my Miracle Balm, it looks natural, fresh, effortless. I put it on and I could head out to dinner with friends or a little date night with Kevin, or we could go to court. I love how lightweight it feels and I love that it gives me a bit of a glow.

[00:00:28] [SPEAKER_01] It's just this kind of clean, natural look that I love. I adore how it enhances my skin instead of just hiding it. Also for me, it's just so convenient. I could put it on really fast. Like one day after we were super busy with the podcast, Kevin and I went out for dinner in a movie, the new MST3K reboot. So even though I didn't have a lot of time, I put it on and loved the way I looked. It took about like five minutes at most. Also, clean beauty is a must for me.

[00:00:51] [SPEAKER_00] This formula is packed with ingredients that love your skin with no phthalates, sulfates or BPA.

[00:00:58] [SPEAKER_01] No clogging, no clumping, just convenient beauty. Miracle Balm requires no brushes. Use it as a highlighter, a bronzer, a blush, lip tint, whatever you want. They'll have you glowing up in 60 seconds. They did for me. Oh, and definitely try their minimalist defining mascara too. The formula leaves your lashes so soft and feathery, no clumps, and it's the most natural looking definition.

[00:01:18] [SPEAKER_01] Modern day makeup that's clean, strategic and multifunctional for effortless routines. For a limited time, our listeners are getting a free full sized mascara on their first purchase when they use code M sheet at checkout. Just head to jonesroadbeauty.com and use code M sheet at checkout. After you purchase, they will ask you where you heard about them. Please support our show and tell them our show sent you.

[00:01:41] [SPEAKER_01] Hi, I'm Anya and today we're going to discuss day 10 of the Faith Hedgepeth murder trial, an ongoing murder trial in North Carolina. Content warning, this episode contains discussion of rape and murder.

[00:01:55] [SPEAKER_01] All right. So here we are on day 10 and I think this whole thing is wrapping up a lot sooner than some of us thought it would be. We thought this might go on. I think the judge initially said five to six weeks, but it turns out that the prosecution rested the other day. Today, the defense rested without calling a single witness.

[00:02:17] [SPEAKER_01] Yes. What does that mean, Kevin, in general? Like what can you talk about that? Because that might be surprising to some people.

[00:02:26] [SPEAKER_00] Well, the thing to remember is that it is the prosecution that has the burden of actually proving something. They have to establish that the person charged with the crime actually committed that crime. That's a lot of work. That's a pretty big burden. And you can't imagine a situation where like the reverse of this would happen, where the prosecution would walk and say, well, we're not going to present a case. Let's just hear what the defense has to say.

[00:02:52] [SPEAKER_01] Well, they couldn't do that. That would be thrown out.

[00:02:54] [SPEAKER_00] It would be thrown out. On the other hand, the defense doesn't have the burden of proving anything. All they have to do is try to establish that there is a reasonable doubt that whatever the prosecution is claiming is true.

[00:03:09] [SPEAKER_00] So if they feel that the prosecution has not met its burden, if they feel that the prosecution has not proven its case, if they feel like, golly, just by us cross-examining some of these witnesses, we have done a good enough job of poking holes in this case, they don't need to present a defense.

[00:03:33] [SPEAKER_01] So when can that be a power move and when can that be maybe not a good idea in front of a jury?

[00:03:41] [SPEAKER_00] It can be a power move if it's actually a very weak case and it sends a message, at least implicitly, that we don't think they've done a good job.

[00:03:52] [SPEAKER_01] I think it's like the almost defense attorney equivalent of like this guy swung a punch at me, missed, fell on his face, and I didn't even need to hit him. I'm just walking away because I don't know what I just saw here. Like, I think that's a power move.

[00:04:03] [SPEAKER_00] I guess the other side would be if you feel like they don't have a defense to present.

[00:04:08] [SPEAKER_01] So, yeah, I think this is that, honestly. And I mean, I always like to see a defense case because I am fascinated with these trials. So I like to see their witnesses. I like to see that. But it can definitely be a power move. And sometimes I think it is better for the defense to say, like, what was that? Are you really going to go with them after that?

[00:04:31] [SPEAKER_01] And in this case, I think there's just too much evidence against their defendant to really make that work. And there's evidence that I, if I were a juror, would have wanted to see them take down a peg. Or at least give me an alternative to grasp or grapple with.

[00:04:51] [SPEAKER_01] Like, tell me about, tell me a story where his DNA gets into the scene without him being a guy who raped her. Without him being the guy who killed her. Like, give me that. Give me that two-way. Give me more things the police did wrong where I can maybe question the investigative methods. Give me something.

[00:05:21] [SPEAKER_01] Give me a story where Faith Hedgepeth, the victim, might have met Miguel Enrique Salguero Olivares, the defendant. Where they might have actually met, hit it off. Like, give me a witness who says, oh yeah, Faith actually came out to the cookout for a minute, said hi. And then, you know, she and this other guy were kind of chatting and like seemed to be hitting it off.

[00:05:46] [SPEAKER_01] Like, give me something that connects him so he's not a stranger to her anymore. So that he is actually someone that she might have felt was a viable sexual partner who she wanted to have consensual sexual contact with.

[00:06:02] [SPEAKER_00] Yes. So let's get into it.

[00:06:04] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah. Let's do it. Oh, we're still in the intro. Sorry.

[00:06:08] [SPEAKER_00] That's why I was subtly hinting.

[00:06:10] [SPEAKER_01] I'm just raring to go here. Let's do it.

[00:06:13] [SPEAKER_00] That's why you have me here.

[00:06:14] [SPEAKER_01] I had a lot of tea this morning and I'm just getting nuts. All right, let's go. My name is Anya Kane. I'm a journalist.

[00:06:21] [SPEAKER_00] And I'm Kevin Greenlee. I'm an attorney. And this is The Murder Sheet. We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews and deep dives into murder cases. We're The Murder Sheet.

[00:06:33] [SPEAKER_01] And this is The Murder of Faith Hedgepeth. The trial of Miguel Enrique Salguero Alivares. Day 10. The defense rests.

[00:07:27] [SPEAKER_01] This is what happens when I get too hyper. You're like shaking your head at me as the music plays.

[00:07:32] [SPEAKER_00] Thank God I was here. Let me let me start by doing something lawyers are trained to do, which is they never ask a question you don't know the answer to. So I'm going to ask you a question. I'm pretty sure I know the answer to this. Anya, when it comes to this defense or even defense in general, do you think it was a good idea that this defendant chose not to testify in his own defense?

[00:07:59] [SPEAKER_01] Well, it's a double-edged sword and it's complicated. I don't think it was a good idea. I think we needed to hear from this guy how this all happened, how his DNA got at the scene. I think in this particular – now, okay, I say that all the defense attorneys, I know some of you are listening and they're like, no, no, no, it's such a risk.

[00:08:16] [SPEAKER_00] I'm over here saying, no, no, it's such a risk.

[00:08:18] [SPEAKER_01] But, okay, to me, it's a risk, but it has a high reward. If your defendant is likable, believable, tells a story that's compelling, that can be reasonable doubt right there. It just can. But most likely, like 99 percent – you know, it's like that meme from Arrested Development where he's talking about it. Opening up their marriage and it's like, no, it never works. People delude themselves into thinking it's working, but it might work for us.

[00:08:43] [SPEAKER_01] That's what I imagine, having your defendant testify, having your client testify.

[00:08:49] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah, I think it almost certainly would have been a mistake.

[00:08:52] [SPEAKER_01] Well, I think he's guilty, so I think, yeah.

[00:08:54] [SPEAKER_00] I don't think there's a story he could have told that would have worked. And when you're on the stand testifying for your life, that is obviously a very high-pressure situation. That even people who do it probably don't have a lot of experience having done it before. And you're facing very smart people who know the case you're testifying about inside and out.

[00:09:21] [SPEAKER_00] And who are going to do their absolute best to fluster you and make you look bad. I think the vast, vast majority of people in that case will do badly and will make some sort of mistake. And it ends up being very damaging. And I don't think it is worth the risk. So I think that is something – I used to have a little bit of a disagreement. I think it was smart not to testify.

[00:09:48] [SPEAKER_01] Listen, I'm a risk-adverse person myself. Under normal circumstances, I would actually agree with you. Under normal circumstances, I would say keep your client away from the stand. But in this case, if they're going to do nothing else, why not at least have him get a word in? How did your DNA get at the scene, bro? You know, why is your sperm and semen coming up on the sexual assault kit? You need to explain that.

[00:10:17] [SPEAKER_01] And, like, that's really important. And if they're not going to have anyone else tell the story, it's like they're just kind of – I don't know. It just seems like on some level I would see it as conceding a lot. And if you're not going to do anything else, then you're kind of already conceding that I feel like there's not much to do. Maybe it's worth a gamble. Maybe your guy comes off really well and tells the tale of – Probably not.

[00:10:47] [SPEAKER_01] We're going to have sex with this girl and we really got along and this all happened. And actually I had sex with her a day before this – I mean, whatever. Tell us something. And, you know, I mean, I thought it went out with a whimper. I'm not even really blaming the defense team. You have the case that you have. They can't make the case better. They can't switch facts around to eliminate the bad facts. I think this was a very good defense team. I think they were strong.

[00:11:16] [SPEAKER_01] I think they did really well on cross. A lot of times making people – I mean, like, I thought that, hey, did you know you presented a meme as evidence? Was amazing. And I liked their demeanor. I thought they were able to do good cross-examinations without coming across as heavy-handed. And that actually left me, like, with their points resonating more. And so I'm very highly complimentary of them. I understand why they didn't call their client.

[00:11:43] [SPEAKER_01] I'm just saying, like, if you're going to do – like, I don't know, maybe this is the time to, like, spin the roulette wheel and see what happens. Because, I don't know, do you – do you see it as a point of strength to end like this?

[00:12:01] [SPEAKER_00] If you don't have something really strong, I think it's better to end like this than to get up there and offer something really weak as the juror's last impression of you prior to the closing argument. Fair.

[00:12:19] [SPEAKER_01] Fair. That's fair.

[00:12:50] [SPEAKER_00] Yes, if you buy a lottery ticket, there is a chance you're going to win a million dollars. It's not a big chance. And I wouldn't bet my financial planning and my financial future on me buying a winning lottery ticket. And if I'm even in a situation where that's even an issue, where, like, well, the only way my financial future is guaranteed is if I do my lottery ticket plan, I'm in a pretty weak place.

[00:13:17] [SPEAKER_00] And if you're in a situation where the only thing that's going to save you is if the defendant gets on the stand and just does a great job and is just charismatic and charming and witty and everybody falls in love with him, that's not a good place to be in. Because that's not something that's going to happen, at least not in the real world, the vast, vast majority of the time.

[00:13:39] [SPEAKER_01] All right. You've dampened my enthusiasm.

[00:13:41] [SPEAKER_00] That's what I'm here for.

[00:13:42] [SPEAKER_01] I think –

[00:13:43] [SPEAKER_00] I'm here to remind you to do the opening and to dampen your enthusiasm.

[00:13:48] [SPEAKER_01] I think Kevin's right. I think Kevin's right. If you're on trial, you probably shouldn't push to testify unless you're really confident that it's really going to go well. We have heard from defense attorneys who've said that sometimes, even though you shouldn't do it, sometimes it's the only thing you can do because it's almost like the jury needs to hear their side of it. Certain cases, like, it boils down to if they find them at all believable, that's reasonable doubt. But –

[00:14:15] [SPEAKER_00] I remember the case we're probably best known for covering is the Richard Allen murder case. He made a number of confessions where he said at least 61 times either outright confessions or incriminating statements to the effect of, oh, you know this crime I'm charged with? I did it.

[00:14:33] [SPEAKER_00] And I remember talking to a defense attorney and he said if you have a situation where your client repeatedly confesses to a crime, that's a situation where you really need to get that client on the stand to try to explain that away. So I agree there may be some situations where it is –

[00:14:50] [SPEAKER_01] Because you're not even saying I didn't do it. You're saying, like, I was really struggling and this is why I said that.

[00:14:56] [SPEAKER_00] And I had a bad day 61 times when I made those confessions. 61 bad days, baby. Because who hasn't, when they've had a bad day, falsely confessed to a heinous double homicide?

[00:15:06] [SPEAKER_01] You know, it's – that had a bad day song playing in the background as a montage of him confessing. But, you know.

[00:15:13] [SPEAKER_00] We'd like to give a big thank you to Vented, the sponsor of this episode.

[00:15:18] [SPEAKER_01] For those of you who haven't seen backgrounds of our lives, the clutter has gotten out of hand at our house. So I've decided to make an effort to do some serious cleaning. One of the places I'm starting is in our bedroom closet. I can't believe all the clothes I had in there that I'd probably frankly never wear again. They were taking up a lot of space. But I didn't want to just be wasteful and throw them away. That didn't seem right and they have a lot of life in them.

[00:15:40] [SPEAKER_00] That's when we found out about Vented, a great way to turn the clothes in our closet into money.

[00:15:46] [SPEAKER_01] And also clear up closet space for new clothes.

[00:15:50] [SPEAKER_00] Vented is a secondhand market app that makes it easy for everyday sellers like us to sell our pre-loved fashion items. I love that this app is free to download and there are no seller fees. That means we get to keep everything we earn.

[00:16:06] [SPEAKER_01] Vented makes it so easy to list items. They even help you after an item sells by creating prepaid shipping labels. It couldn't be simpler. And that just makes me want to list more and more items. It makes me feel so much better to have a less cluttered closet.

[00:16:21] [SPEAKER_00] And these days it also helps to be able to earn some extra money, especially when Vented makes it so easy. That's Vented. V-I-N-T-E-D. See what's hiding in your closet. You might be surprised how much you can earn with Vented. Download the Vented app for free to start listing with no seller fees.

[00:16:42] [SPEAKER_01] Fall means darker days and chilly air. But if you or your partner sleep hot, it can be tricky to get your bedding set up just right. And we all know that health and wellness starts with good sleep. For Kevin and I, that means it starts with amazing, comfortable bedding from our sponsor, Bull & Branch.

[00:16:57] [SPEAKER_00] Stay cozy as the temperatures drop with Bull & Branch. You never sleep hot again. These sheets are going to help you make your bed feel like the coziest, most relaxing place in the world. Somewhere to snuggle up as the winds blow. Their signature sheets are the key ingredient. But they also provide temperature-regulating comforters. Cozy and breathable blankets. You are going to want to upgrade your entire bed.

[00:17:20] [SPEAKER_01] We certainly did. Our first foray into Bull & Branch was their signature hemmed sheet set in Dusty Rose. Love the color. Love the matching waffle bed blanket. We actually ran out and bought a second set. These ones are sand-colored. That way, we will never have to go back to regular bedding.

[00:17:35] [SPEAKER_00] Once you try Bull & Branch, you will understand. It's like bedding from a really nice hotel. Woven specifically for airflow, not just softness. So you will feel cozy, not hot. We have been getting amazing sleep on these.

[00:17:48] [SPEAKER_01] Plus, I don't know what magic or sorcery they're doing for this, but the more we wash them, the softer they get. I've never had that before. Seriously. Check them out. You're going to melt away. You're going to take your bedtime routine to the max. Bull & Branch sheets are the official pick of the murder sheets from here on out.

[00:18:05] [SPEAKER_00] Upgrade your sleep with Bull & Branch. Get 15% off your first order plus free shipping at bullandbranch.com slash msheet with code msheet. That's bullandbranch, B-O-L-L-A-N-D, branch.com slash msheet. Code msheet to unlock 15% off. Exclusions apply.

[00:18:23] [SPEAKER_01] We love looking good and saving money. So we love our wonderful sponsor, Quince. The clothes they make are comfortable, affordable, and they don't go out of style. They're those wardrobe staples you'll reach for again and again. We certainly do.

[00:18:36] [SPEAKER_00] I recently got a pearl snap denim western shirt and denim blue that I wear all the time now. For everyday and for fancier events and get-togethers, it's breathable and comfortable, which is a huge deal for me. And I know as the weather cools, I'll be returning to my Quince sweaters. Namely, my Australian merino wool cable crewneck sweater and my Mongolian cashmere crewneck sweater. Those are so soft and so perfect for the fall. Their Mongolian cashmere sweaters start at just $60. Check them out.

[00:19:06] [SPEAKER_01] Seriously, get them and we can all match. I love my 100% European linen fit and flare midi dress in chili red and navy blue. I got two of them because I love them so much. The fit is so good. I think they're so cute and I've gotten a lot of compliments wearing them, so love that. And as Kevin said, I can't wait until it's a bit colder out so I can break out my Mongolian cashmere sweaters. That's the great thing about Quince, though. You want to wear these pieces again and again. These are classic pieces.

[00:19:32] [SPEAKER_01] And you're going to want to get even more because these are 50 to 80% less than similar brands because they cut out the middlemen. Refresh your wardrobe without breaking the budget.

[00:19:41] [SPEAKER_00] Find your next fall favorites at Quince. Download the Quince app for app-exclusive offers or go to Quince.com. Get free shipping on your order and 365-day returns. Now available in Canada and the UK, too. And when Quince asks where you heard about them, let them know it was the murder sheet. It is the best way to support the show.

[00:20:00] [SPEAKER_01] But, yeah, I think there are instances.

[00:20:04] [SPEAKER_00] But I do note in this case, they seem to have made a big deal of making sure. I think the judge talked to the defendant and said, you know, you can testify if you want to. Nobody can tell you not to. I think that's because sometimes you see people who have been convicted. You always try to raise whatever issues you can. And sometimes, like in the Temujin Kenzu case.

[00:20:24] [SPEAKER_01] I was going to say Temujin Kenzu.

[00:20:26] [SPEAKER_00] You have people try to say, well, guess what? I had this amazing story. And if only the jury had heard from me, I surely would have been acquitted. But guess what? I had no idea I was even allowed to testify. No one told me I was allowed to testify. So in order to make it impossible for people to use that defense or to use that argument, you have what you saw today where the judge says to the defendant, you know, you can testify if you want to.

[00:20:55] [SPEAKER_00] No one can make you not testify. If you've got a great story, get up there and belt it out for all of us.

[00:21:02] [SPEAKER_01] Who amongst us would have disbelieved the dragon of the Cathal? That's what I ask. That's what I ask you, the public.

[00:21:09] [SPEAKER_00] Yes.

[00:21:10] [SPEAKER_01] Yes. Yes. We've been we've covered some pretty wild cases. But I mean, this is a case where, yeah, he didn't. So I'll kind of go through my notes on what I watched today. It was obviously a shorter day. First, we started off with the prosecution. Brooke Stone, specifically a Durham County assistant district attorney. He asked the judge, hey, judge, don't let the defense put on experts because they didn't give us enough notice. What does that mean? What?

[00:21:40] [SPEAKER_01] I mean, Kevin, as an attorney, why would they be like, hey, don't don't let them don't let them tell their side because they didn't tell us. That might sound weird to people.

[00:21:47] [SPEAKER_00] Basically, there are rules in trials that must be followed to protect the rights of everybody.

[00:22:26] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah. So whether you're the prosecution calling an expert witness or whether you're the defense calling an expert witness. First of all, if you've done your job, you know who you're going to call well in advance and you want the other side to be able to look at the experts that the other side is presenting. So they have an option or they have the opportunity rather to study what they say and see if there are any flaws in or any questions to ask about it.

[00:22:56] [SPEAKER_00] How many times in trials or even in instances in your personal life do you hear someone present a position? And it sounds pretty good. But then someone else who knows the subject says, well, what about this? And you want the attorneys in a case to have the opportunity to be informed and to be able to say, well, what about this? You want them to be informed and be able to do cross-examination in a meaningful way.

[00:23:25] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah. No trial by surprise. Love that in silly movies where it's like the last minute witness. No one knew about it. And everyone's gasping. And it's like that. And I was that's that would never that would never happen. So they go on about that. There's this colloquy where that was, as you mentioned, the judge, you know, telling the defendant, telling Mr. Salguero Olivares, you have the right to testify. You don't have to testify.

[00:23:54] [SPEAKER_01] We're not going to make you, but you can if you want to. And it came out that he has elected not to do so. And as you said, this is kind of a good thing for the judge to do, because then he can't turn around and say, my defense attorneys wouldn't let me testify. I really wanted to do it. It's like, no, we asked you in open court. You said no. Then it came out that the defense wasn't going to call any witnesses. Mr. Stone probably was surprised by that, given that he was like, don't let them call any experts. And then it's like, no, they don't want to.

[00:24:22] [SPEAKER_01] And so there's discussion about, you know, I mean, the prosecution is kind of like, well, the defense a number of times said they were going to call, you know, present evidence. And then the judge is like, well, they kind of did. They have defense exhibits. You know, that's not the same thing as calling witnesses, but they've brought in exhibits.

[00:24:39] [SPEAKER_01] And, you know, basically what the defense pushes back on that because they're saying we don't want to have introduced exhibit into evidence because we don't want to lose the right to give the last argument in the case for closing arguments. Normally, I think it's the defense. So it's normally it's the prosecution goes first, then the defense, then the prosecution can do a rebuttal. Right. They're having this kind of argument around that.

[00:25:10] [SPEAKER_01] And ultimately, this kind of devolves or not devolves, but it kind of I mean, it kind of they have a they have a. Break to to look at this and. You know, they want to they both want to look at the law around this. And, you know, when you have cross examination and you're eliciting evidence through that, does that mean that the defense team has waived the right to the final argument?

[00:25:41] [SPEAKER_01] And when you're talking about exhibits that haven't even actually been examined by the jury. And, you know, when they came back from a break after looking up some of this case law, they ended up saying like the prosecutor didn't find any case law that countered what the court was saying on this. And they're kind of like this is a kind of a weird situation to be in. And ultimately, the upshot is that closing arguments will take place tomorrow. The defense rested.

[00:26:09] [SPEAKER_01] And at that point, the judge told the jury your excuse until tomorrow morning. And then you're going to hear my instructions and you're going to hear the closing arguments. People always think of the closing arguments as the big, sexy, final presentations by both sides that can get a little fiery. We've seen. But the more boring cousin of that is the jury instructions that the judge is going to deliver. And they go on for about five hours and they're really boring.

[00:26:36] [SPEAKER_01] But they're very important and important if you're on a jury to listen to them, because it is the judge helping the jury out in terms of what they're about to do. Can you talk a little bit more about jury instructions and why those are important? And I shouldn't denigrate them as boring because how dare I?

[00:26:52] [SPEAKER_00] You shouldn't denigrate them as boring because what this is kind of a two part process because the jury is going to figure out here is what we think happened. And then the judge is going to apply the law by giving them instructions. And he's going to say, well, if you think, say, X happened according to the law, you must return this verdict.

[00:27:17] [SPEAKER_00] If you think Z happened according to the law, you must return this sort of verdict. So it's up to the jury to determine what happened. But then they have to look at these instructions given to them by the judge in order to determine what their decision about what happened means in terms of what verdict they can return.

[00:27:39] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah. And that is important. But when you're in the gallery and you're waiting for the closing arguments, I think people do sometimes find it a little bit of a snooze. But it is still maybe one of the most important things for the jury to be very much locked in and paying attention to. So when we recorded this, they went into recess at some point and then we're talking about like they're going to try to come back for like a charge conference.

[00:28:03] [SPEAKER_01] But when the jury left, the defense once again moved to dismiss all the charges, saying the state didn't prove the elements of all of its charges. State says, hey. Yes, we did. Don't let him do it, judge. And unsurprisingly, the judge denied the motion. Do you want to talk about that? They tried to do that the other day, too.

[00:28:24] [SPEAKER_00] It's just routine. You know, I think we talked about that the other day. It's not it's not a big deal.

[00:28:31] [SPEAKER_01] So where I want to talk about some. So, I mean, to me, I think I would feel like this is going to likely end in a guilty verdict. But I don't know. I mean, you never know with a jury. But I felt the state's case was ultimately strong. Not perfect. I imagine most cases wouldn't be especially a case as old as, you know, 2012 we're talking about.

[00:28:55] [SPEAKER_01] But I think ultimately what I come back to is you have this guy who's saying, I didn't know her. Never met her. He's proven to have lied about that. He's proven to have lied about that by having his semen be found in her rectum and vagina. And his thumbprint and palm print at the scene. He's not telling the truth.

[00:29:23] [SPEAKER_01] And, you know, if he had a story about this, then that would be one thing. If he was a boyfriend, if he was even an acquaintance, a co-worker. Yeah, we hooked up. Whatever. Then that would be something. But he's giving us nothing. There's nothing. And you can't. I've seen the most dimwitted takes about this case online. Kevin, I've seen things. Some people are just not.

[00:29:54] [SPEAKER_01] I feel like some people hear a little bit of nuance and it breaks their brains. And then they just kind of keep harping that because they think it sounds smart. DNA doesn't prove guilt. Of course it doesn't. Anyone who acts like it does is wrong. But it's also really, really stupid to start envisioning some bizarre Rube Goldberg-esque scenario where, like, Salguero Olivares uses a condom in a consensual setting

[00:30:23] [SPEAKER_01] and then somehow that's catapulted, you know, from his apartment building all the way across town and lands on the penis of the real rapist murderer who then happens to break into Faith Hedgepeth's apartment and commit this horrible crime. And, oh, actually, also this piece of plastic that the defendant hit, that also flew there and flew into the real killer's hands and he was able to somehow transfer that to the bottle at the scene.

[00:30:52] [SPEAKER_01] Like, what are we talking about? What are we talking about? What is... Why are... Guys, it's not hard, okay? DNA... We don't have to say DNA. DNA is up for interpretation. DNA... If someone's touch DNA is found at the scene, that doesn't prove they're a rapist, right? Because we don't have the semen. We don't have...

[00:31:15] [SPEAKER_01] If someone's touch DNA is located in the car of a friend, that doesn't mean anything. It could mean something, but it doesn't necessarily mean anything. And when there's two scenarios, one, you're the murderer, and one, you're just taking a ride from your friend, which you were known to do, you have to give the edge to the defendant in that case. You have to give the benefit of the doubt. But when we're talking about someone who is established to be a stranger,

[00:31:44] [SPEAKER_01] testimony establishes him as a stranger. They had no connection. They had no knowledge of each other. He even says that. If you're finding his palm print and thumbprint at the scene, it's circumstantial evidence. But I'm begging people, look at the circumstances. Like, I don't know.

[00:32:08] [SPEAKER_01] I feel we've cultivated a really smart audience, you and I, because, like, I feel like our audience gets that. But, like, I see some of this stuff out there, and I'm like, guys, making something stupidly complicated does not make you smart. You're not Sherlock Holmes, you know? Like, you're not, oh, yes, the killer. Everyone wants the killer to be some kind of, like, guy who's somehow able to, like, Dexter up, like, the crime scene to frame somebody else.

[00:32:37] [SPEAKER_01] And, like, that's just not really how most crime works. Most crime is done by, like, stupid impulsive people who do stupid impulsive and horrible things, and then they eventually get caught because they're not a criminal genius. I mean, I don't know. What do you think about that? I mean, what do you think about people literally saying, that doesn't prove he killed her?

[00:32:55] [SPEAKER_00] I think a lot of people have interacted with crime largely through, like, film or movies, and you often see people having complicated, convoluted schemes to frame other people in film or in movies. So you look for those elsewhere. Yeah, I don't find it to be credible or something that happens in real life. I would imagine, if you want me to predict, based on the evidence I've seen,

[00:33:22] [SPEAKER_00] I think we're either going to see a conviction or these days it's always possible to get a hung jury. I say these days. Obviously, at any point it's possible to get a hung jury, but it seems we've been getting more hung juries lately in high-profile cases.

[00:33:38] [SPEAKER_01] People, I think that has most to do with just the decline of critical thinking.

[00:33:43] [SPEAKER_00] I don't think an acquittal is on the table. I think the best his side could reasonably hope for would be a hung jury, but I think it's more likely to be a conviction.

[00:33:57] [SPEAKER_01] It's one of those things where you can't explain away this DNA, and they haven't even tried to. Like, they haven't even made the effort to. And so when I see people in, like, different online spaces, like, trying to explain it away, just remember, like, you're making these arguments, but they're not. They didn't. That's not what came up at trial. So maybe that should tell you something. Maybe the fact that they're not even saying it. I'm not saying, like, during the trial I repeatedly said maybe they have a story.

[00:34:25] [SPEAKER_01] Maybe they have a version of events where this makes sense. Because I kept an open mind for that, but it didn't happen. So, like, when I see people saying, well, the DNA doesn't mean anything, it does under the circumstances. Even more so than if this man was known to her. If he was known to her, I would say there was more ambiguity here, and they could have had sexual contact in a realistic way, and it didn't, you know.

[00:34:54] [SPEAKER_01] But he's not even claiming, like, yeah, we had sex a couple days beforehand. Like, he's not saying anything. It's not his burden, but I think the state is vaulted over theirs. I think they've absolutely met the burden. I think it was a slam dunk case. I think if they don't convict on this one, it'll probably get convicted a second time. I think if they don't convict on this one, it's because a bunch of, like, I think some people feel like by taking a controversial or contrarian position,

[00:35:24] [SPEAKER_01] they're coming across as smart to others. Doesn't work on me, folks. You know, I'm just like, wow, okay. I just see people like this as, like, up their own butts, I guess, because it's like you're trying to construct this reality where everything's so complex and you're the only one who can see it, and it's just kind of this egotistical, frankly, masturbatory exercise that shouldn't impress anybody. I mean, I think most people with common sense look at a case like this and say, okay, this was clearly a rape.

[00:35:52] [SPEAKER_01] This was clearly a rape murder. It's very unlikely that someone would break in and rape her and then kill her. Then someone else comes in and kills her. I mean, like, what are we talking about here? But I think this should be a guilty verdict. I would, you know, I would be surprised even if it was a hung jury, but I do think that is possible. And there's no way he's getting acquitted. That's just not going to happen. And people say, well, why would he just do this? Men do this to women all the time.

[00:36:21] [SPEAKER_01] I don't know what to tell you, you know? Women do terrible things, too. I mean, it's not just a male thing. But in terms of, like, why would somebody break into a woman's residence, rape her and beat her to death for sexual gratification? Because they like that. And some men will kill for that.

[00:36:49] [SPEAKER_01] So mystery solved. Like, I don't know what to tell people. But yeah, I mean, obviously this whole thing is just such a tragedy for Faith's family. I can't imagine having to live with the unknown for so long, and then finally all of this culminates in a trial, and the anxiety of waiting for that outcome, and the anxiety of possibly having to do it all over again. Like, my heart goes out to them,

[00:37:18] [SPEAKER_01] because that must be agonizing to now have to wait and see what a jury says. And at the end of the day, you know that none of it will bring Faith back. You know, it, like, there's no happy ending. There's no, oh, we did this, and now Faith gets to come back, and we can have her in our lives again. It's just, she's gone. And all you can do is hope that the person who took her away,

[00:37:47] [SPEAKER_01] there'll be some accountability, and there'll be some punishment. But, you know, that's not, there's no control over that. No one knows what the outcome is going to be, except for ultimately those 12 jurors. So, yeah. Again, I commend the defense for the job they did. I thought they did an excellent job. I thought the prosecution mostly did an excellent job. There were some fumbles I made fun of toward the end, but generally I thought they put on a very compelling case. I thought it was easy to follow.

[00:38:18] [SPEAKER_01] In my opinion, at least, they were, you know, it was pretty clear. I thought the investigation seemed to have some struggles at times and some mistakes made, like any investigation, but generally it seemed like it had a dedicated team to it where people worked on this for years and really wanted to see justice done in this case. So, you know, I think there were a lot of talented and hardworking people on all sides of this. And I will certainly, we'll be monitoring this to see what happens,

[00:38:45] [SPEAKER_01] but I'll certainly be watching the closing arguments. I'll be very curious to see what's said there. And then, I guess, going on verdict watch, right?

[00:38:54] [SPEAKER_00] That's right.

[00:38:55] [SPEAKER_01] All right. Well, anything else to add, Kevin?

[00:38:58] [SPEAKER_00] Don't forget to end the episode. That's what I'm here for.

[00:39:03] [SPEAKER_01] Watch me just like walk away, like, okay, bye, everybody! Kevin just sighing and...

[00:39:08] [SPEAKER_00] Sometimes I'm quiet during some of these episodes, but I play a crucial function. So don't forget to end the episode.

[00:39:15] [SPEAKER_01] I wouldn't be able to do anything without you, babe. I love you so much. You're a little sweetie.

[00:39:21] [SPEAKER_00] Well, thank you. And thank you for listening, everybody. And we will cover the conclusion of this trial as it happens.

[00:39:27] [SPEAKER_01] Absolutely. Thanks, everybody.

[00:39:28] [SPEAKER_00] Thanks so much for listening to The Murder Sheet. If you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover, please email us at murdersheet at gmail dot com. If you have actionable information about an unsolved crime, please report it to the appropriate authorities.

[00:39:49] [SPEAKER_01] If you're interested in joining our Patreon, that's available at www.patreon.com slash murdersheet. If you want to tip us a bit of money for records requests, you can do so at www.buymeacoffee.com slash murdersheet. We very much appreciate any support.

[00:40:12] [SPEAKER_00] Special thanks to Kevin Tyler Greenlee, who composed the music for The Murder Sheet, and who you can find on the web at kevintg.com.

[00:40:22] [SPEAKER_01] If you're looking to talk with other listeners about a case we've covered, you can join the Murder Sheet discussion group on Facebook. We mostly focus our time on research and reporting, so we're not on social media much. We do try to check our email account, but we ask for patience as we often receive a lot of messages. Thanks again for listening.