The Murder of Faith Hedgepeth: The Trial of Miguel Enrique Salguero-Olivares: Day Two: Inside the Crime Scene

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[00:01:40] [SPEAKER_01] I'm Anya, and today we're going to be discussing the second day of trial in the case of the murder of Faith Hedgepeth and the trial of Miguel Enrique Salguero Olivares. Content warning, this episode includes graphic discussion of murder, violence, and rape.

[00:02:01] [SPEAKER_01] All right, Kevin, so today is October 8th, 2026. We are already on day two of the trial in the murder of Faith Hedgepeth, which is going on in Durham County, North Carolina right now. It's day two, but we've already gotten to a lot of really key, important witnesses. And one notable thing is that today ended with essentially, for lack of a better term, I guess you could call it a virtual tour of the crime scene.

[00:02:31] [SPEAKER_01] Now, folks watching this at home did not see everything. Understandably, some of these images, videos, and pictures are extremely graphic, and that's really not meant for the public to be out there. We have to have respect for the murder victims and their privacy, even in death. The jury needs to see it. It doesn't need to be broadcast over the airways. So the judge in this case was very protective of that and ensured that that was not being broadcast.

[00:02:59] [SPEAKER_01] But we did have a forensic technician essentially walking us through what she was seeing and what she's looking at in this footage now all these years later from that crime scene all the way back in 2012. So we're going to go over this. We're going to talk about some clips, react to some important moments, and discuss what this all means going forward. My name is Anya Kane. I'm a journalist.

[00:03:26] [SPEAKER_14] And I'm Kevin Greenlee. I'm an attorney. And this is The Murder Sheet. We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews, and deep dives into murder cases. We're Murder Sheet.

[00:03:40] [SPEAKER_01] And this is the murder of Faith Hedgepeth, the trial of Miguel Enrique Salguero Olivares, day two, inside the crime scene.

[00:04:34] [SPEAKER_01] One thing, Kevin, that I thought was notable and certainly something to point out in this case is quite a quieter moment that we saw right at the start of today. And this was, I believe, before the jury even came into the room. It was between the parties, the various attorneys, the prosecution, the defense, and the judge. And it was a reference to things that had been going on in the pretrial phase of this case.

[00:05:00] [SPEAKER_01] And in it, James Rainsford, who is one of the defense attorneys who's really doing most of the talking, and I believe must be the lead counsel for the defense, was talking about how they were not allowed to present third-party suspects in the case. They were allowed to reference to certain things that might cast suspicion on others. There was almost a list of things that they could mention.

[00:05:27] [SPEAKER_01] But in general, they were not allowed to just point the finger directly at anyone. Can you as an attorney speak to why that is? Because on the surface, that might sound like, okay, well, why wouldn't they just be allowed to say whatever they want? Why is it important in our system that there are some checks on that ability?

[00:05:46] [SPEAKER_14] It's important to protect the rights of everyone in this process. Obviously, we want to protect the defendant's rights to argue that he is not guilty of a particular crime. That doesn't necessarily give the defendant or his attorneys the right to go in there and just start accusing other people of the crime.

[00:06:08] [SPEAKER_14] Typically, you're not allowed to accuse another person of the crime unless there is some sort of a connection you can demonstrate between them and the crime. Now, the thing to remember, in order to be found not guilty, a defendant is not required to solve the crime, is not required to put on their deer stalker hat and prove that the crime was committed by someone else. All they need to do is demonstrate that there was a reasonable doubt that the defendant actually committed the crime.

[00:06:38] [SPEAKER_14] So when you say a defendant is not permitted to directly accuse someone, that isn't really hobble a defense.

[00:06:46] [SPEAKER_01] So why might a defense team still want to point the finger at a specific someone rather than a vague? Because if you're saying, hey, the defense doesn't have to prove or solve the case, they can just say it wasn't our guy. The burden of proof is on the state, not the defense. Why do defense attorneys even care? Why do they potentially like to have someone to blame?

[00:07:08] [SPEAKER_14] Sometimes it can be easier for a jury to acquit if you can point the finger at someone else and say, oh, it wasn't my guy. It was this guy and cast the blame on them. That can be dramatic. And some defense attorneys may find that it makes their job a little bit easier.

[00:07:24] [SPEAKER_01] So it's kind of a strategy that can be beneficial, but it certainly doesn't mean that they have the burden.

[00:07:30] [SPEAKER_00] Yes.

[00:07:30] [SPEAKER_01] So in this case, as I learned from sort of doing some research into what happened before this trial, I found that in September of this year, Judge Keith O. Gregory, who's the judge on the case, he granted the prosecution's motion, basically asking for the defense team in this case to not be able to argue a third party killer here.

[00:07:58] [SPEAKER_01] In his ruling, the judge indicated that he felt a lot of what the defense was putting out there were inferences and essentially that they had not gotten to the point where they could really draw the direct connection needed. That Karina Rosario, who was Faith Hedgepeth's roommate at this time, at the time of her death, and one of her dearest friends, they were close like sisters, we've heard from many witnesses.

[00:08:27] [SPEAKER_01] Basically, he's saying you didn't get there. We can't let this in. And essentially anything that kind of touches upon this sort of has to be ruled on. And I think my reading of this from what I saw from the media reports is that possibly if certain things opened a door during trial, perhaps it would come in in some capacity and it could be talked about. But barring that, he doesn't want it in there. I think it's interesting.

[00:08:54] [SPEAKER_01] You and I, of course, we wrote a book on the Delphi murders here in Indiana, Shadow of the Bridge, the Delphi murders in the dark side of the American Heartland. And we sat through every, almost every pretrial hearing, almost every trial session of that one. And one thing that there's always been a lot of hue and cry about is the fact that third party suspects were also not allowed in that case due to lack of evidence. And people often act like that's super wild and egregious.

[00:09:22] [SPEAKER_01] But here's another case that you and I just decided to cover because we thought it was interesting where the same thing happens. This is just how the process often plays out. That's not to say you shouldn't question a judge's ruling because what might be appropriate in one case is not always going to be appropriate in every case.

[00:09:40] [SPEAKER_01] But to act as if, you know, third party suspects just automatically come in in any situation is egregiously wrong because of what you described, because it is important to protect people's rights.

[00:09:55] [SPEAKER_01] So what we started out with today, though, and I think this is interesting given what we just said, where the defense behind the scenes was sort of setting up Karina Rosario to be the villain of this piece, to be the actual killer, potentially, or at the very least heavily involved in what happened. And today it was James Rainsford's time to cross-examine Karina Rosario. Kevin, a cross-examination.

[00:10:22] [SPEAKER_01] Can you talk a little bit about that and maybe what makes a good one? Maybe what makes a bad one? Is it an art? Is it a science?

[00:10:31] [SPEAKER_14] So, of course, when a lawyer presents their own witness, a witness that they've called to the stand and asked them to tell their story, that's called a direct examination. We have an adversarial system. So that means that the other side gets a chance to ask their own questions of the witness. And this is called a cross-examination.

[00:10:52] [SPEAKER_14] And the purpose of the cross-examination is to look at and analyze the story or the claims that the witness made and maybe try to raise some issues or concerns that could, in theory, cast doubt on what they've said or cast doubt and just generally on the credibility of the witness. Different people have different philosophies of cross-examination. I think most people generally tell you the shorter the better.

[00:11:22] [SPEAKER_14] Figure out what points you want to bring out and then end it because you don't want to just go on and on. You want to leave the jury with whatever points you feel are most important.

[00:11:35] [SPEAKER_01] And I just want to commend James Rainsford's process here. I thought he did a good job. I don't think he let this cross-examination go on too long, in my opinion. I think he focused on the salient points. I liked that he was forceful without feeling bullying or super combative. I think that was effective.

[00:11:55] [SPEAKER_01] I think, for me, if I see any sort of attorney kind of really trying to destroy someone on the stand, unless I feel like it's warranted somehow, which I don't feel like I've ever seen that, it feels like, ooh, I don't know. I don't care for that. Then I'm more focused on the spectacle of the whole thing rather than, like, what the information is. And I thought he—I like his style in court. So I would commend him for that. And I feel like it served him well here.

[00:12:25] [SPEAKER_01] So let me talk for a moment about some of the biggest points that Rainsford focused on in his time with Rosario. We're going to see some clips that get into some of these, but it might be worth just kind of rattling these off to start with so we can kind of be aware of what he was most focused on. So one thing that Rainsford focused a lot on was timeline.

[00:12:48] [SPEAKER_01] In true crime cases, I feel like the timeline is, like, often considered one of the least sexy aspects of a case. And oftentimes you hear people in days in court where they're focused on timelines say, like, this is boring. Why are we even—why do we need to know what time this happened at? And usually it's, like, it's actually pretty important.

[00:13:07] [SPEAKER_01] One big problem with Rosario's timeline is that by her own admission, she was extremely intoxicated September 7th, 2012, when Faith was murdered. They'd been out partying at The Thrill, which was a club in downtown Chapel Hill, and they had, you know, they had a time there.

[00:13:31] [SPEAKER_01] As we talked about in the last episode, Rosario testified that she was having an extremely difficult time emotionally at the club. She had just gotten out of an abusive relationship that she characterized as extremely abusive. She was traumatized by that. Then she starts having sex with another guy that she knows and gets pregnant by him, gets an abortion. And at that point, she feels like he's not there for her.

[00:14:01] [SPEAKER_01] He's not supporting her. She feels very alone. She sees at the club her exes, her abusive exes' family. She had felt close to them, and then it's like she lost them when she lost her relationship. She's getting drunk. She's crying. And the upshot of this is she's not really as aware as you might be if you were sober about, like, the timing of everything and what exactly is happening.

[00:14:27] [SPEAKER_01] And what her sexual awareness is taking a massive hit due to the alcohol and due to her kind of really upset, triggered, unhappy mental state. And, yeah, so that's one thing that Rainsford's pointing out is, like, you don't really know what time it was. And, you know, the more he can poke holes in that, I think the more he can do well by his client.

[00:14:52] [SPEAKER_01] One thing he also really pointed out a lot was why the morning of them discovering Faith's body, why did Rosario call Faith 14 times? What was that all about? In some contexts, 14 phone calls in 90 minutes can be kind of alarming or, like, does this person know something's wrong? And, of course, Rosario has an answer to that.

[00:15:20] [SPEAKER_01] Rosario has an answer that I'm a college student. I just had a very messy, drunken night that led to a hookup with this guy. Now I'm far away from my apartment. I don't have the notes I need to type up papers that are due in a couple of hours. I need those. I need my friend to respond to my phone calls so I can coordinate with her and so I can learn, hey, are you on campus? Can I meet you somewhere and pick up the key? Or can I meet you at home and pick up the key?

[00:15:49] [SPEAKER_01] What she really doesn't want is to miss Faith. So she characterized it as a pretty normal thing. And honestly, having been a college student myself, never in that scenario. But I was the kid who was always losing my card to the dorms. And, you know, there was a running joke. I remember once, like, a couple of my friends, like, two friends on the same day found an old card of mine. And they're like, is this your card? Like, I was like, how does this keep happening?

[00:16:19] [SPEAKER_01] I said in the future, they're going to find all my friggin' student ID cards all around. And archaeologists will be like, what was this?

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[00:21:11] [SPEAKER_01] And, you know, I mean, so, I mean, I don't know. College students can be kind of a mess. None of that really strikes me as weird, I guess. But I don't know. That's just me. I do think it is important, though, that the defense attorneys raise, you know, raise the point there. Right? Like, at least say, well, what was this about? I mean, stress test the state's theory as much as possible. And let the jury decide if they find Rosario credible or not.

[00:21:40] [SPEAKER_01] So they also talked about one clue that the defense puts a lot of weight on, which is about when police later examined Faith's car, which was parked outside of the apartment complex right by the entrance to where her and Rosario's apartment that they shared was. Her gas cap of the car was open. And that was interesting because that can only be opened inside the car. Now, it's Faith's car.

[00:22:09] [SPEAKER_01] Faith was the designated driver. Faith was not drunk. Faith was the one who would have potentially flipped that on. But what the defense is saying is kind of indicates maybe she got gas. Do you remember stopping for gas? And Rosario having to say, no, I don't remember that. And, yeah. So her memory is definitely not the best here. And the question is, is it enough for what she does remember to come in as far as the jury is concerned?

[00:22:37] [SPEAKER_01] So let's watch some clips and discuss them.

[00:22:41] [SPEAKER_04] And so I'm just trying to figure out how you're emotional in the parking garage. Yes. I'm sorry.

[00:23:10] [SPEAKER_04] Did you think it was odd that Faith didn't come from the bedroom to the bathroom that had an open door to make sure you were okay?

[00:23:17] [SPEAKER_11] No. I mean, in my head, if I saw my friend throwing up and then getting up to go to the bathroom, I don't think I would follow them in if I know they're crying and probably wanting some alone time. The bathroom's small. Like, I don't think she would just sit there on the floor with me. I think she was giving me space.

[00:23:42] [SPEAKER_04] Did she bring you some Tylenol, a cup of water, a hug, anything?

[00:23:47] [SPEAKER_11] I mean, she did enough. She got a trash bag for me. She got a trash can, helped me throw up. If I get up after that to go to the bathroom to sit on the floor, that probably indicated to her that I wanted some space. Like, I was crying. I was upset. I was sad. Like, she already knew what I was upset about.

[00:24:14] [SPEAKER_11] So there wasn't really a need to have, like, additional conversation. I think she was just giving me my space.

[00:24:22] [SPEAKER_04] But you never saw her again after you said that you threw up in a lap, so you don't know for sure what was going on? No. Yeah.

[00:24:32] [SPEAKER_01] Not heated back and forth, but definitely, like, you know, side-eyeing from the defense attorney. What's your take on that? I feel like that was pretty characteristic of a lot of the questioning.

[00:24:44] [SPEAKER_14] Yeah. I think it's important when you're a defense attorney, you don't want to, for lack of a better word, be a jerk. You don't want to come across as being a bully to the jury. And so I think what we saw there was him trying to make his points in a non-aggressive way.

[00:25:01] [SPEAKER_01] Do you think it was effective?

[00:25:02] [SPEAKER_14] I think his manner is as effective as possible. I didn't really find the points all that compelling.

[00:25:09] [SPEAKER_01] They're not. I think the points suck. I'm sorry. Pardon me. And again, I just complimented Mr. Rainsford. I think he's doing well with what he has, with the case he has and with the material he has. But I don't feel like it's logical or rational to – and again, I'm not, you know – this is a situation where this is something that just bugs me in true crime as a whole.

[00:25:33] [SPEAKER_01] I don't think it's logical or rational to sit there and pick apart human reactions when there's a whole spectrum of reactions that would be completely appropriate or normal in any given situation. Right?

[00:25:52] [SPEAKER_01] Like, if somebody stubs their toe and, you know, there's like, okay, you could cry, you could fall down, you could curse, you could go really quiet. But, like, there's all these different things that maybe depends on your personality or how much it hurts or what your pain tolerance is or what exactly happened. And it sort of feels like sometimes people in true crime are like, well, you cursed?

[00:26:19] [SPEAKER_01] You didn't just kind of go pale and gasp? Like, and it's like both of those would be fine, but, like, there's a wealth of human experiences and reactions. And especially once you throw alcohol into the mix, especially when you throw young people who are going through a hard time, which is happening in this case seemingly, I just don't find it compelling. I don't find it based in logic. I feel like it's kind of meant to – I don't know.

[00:26:49] [SPEAKER_01] It just – it doesn't sway me. It doesn't do anything for me. Like, I don't care, like, to me. I could see it either way. I could see a friend going in and holding somebody's hair and helping them throw up or whatever or, like, patting them on the back or trying to talk to them. I could also see, like, hey, I had a heart-to-heart with her earlier and I made sure she threw up and she's okay.

[00:27:19] [SPEAKER_01] And now she's kind of in there processing her emotions and texting and I'll leave her be because maybe she wants to be alone. Like, either of those things would be fine and appropriate and within what I would expect. Maybe certain things you wouldn't expect, right? But, like, those – both of those are fine. So making such a big deal about it of, like, I can't believe this didn't happen.

[00:27:46] [SPEAKER_01] I can look at that as somebody who's just observing this and say I don't buy that at all. But I can also commend the defense attorney for doing what he needs to do by his client. And things like that I think are, in my view, within the realm of what you would expect.

[00:28:03] [SPEAKER_00] Exactly.

[00:28:04] [SPEAKER_01] So this is not me at all criticizing this defense attorney. It's more of just saying, like, it's a tactic. It's just one that I don't – I find it's like – it's like a trick, you know? It's like a trap. I just – I look at it and I'm like, okay, good try, you know?

[00:28:20] [SPEAKER_01] In this portion, we have Karina Rosario talking about why she just sort of randomly left her apartment that she shared with Faith at, like, 425 in the morning to go off with Jordan McCrary, a fellow student at UNC Chapel Hill that she had been texting with.

[00:28:38] [SPEAKER_01] And again, to us, I definitely think 425 a.m. random getting out of the house to – you know, with only your phone, without freshening up, without getting your purse, without getting all these other things. That's weird behavior for adults, potentially, depending on the adult, frankly. But in college, yeah, I could see it.

[00:29:01] [SPEAKER_01] But here we are hearing from Karina Rosario herself, and she's kind of explaining her thinking or perhaps lack thereof in that moment. And I'll leave it to the viewers. Do you find her credible? Do you find this suspicious? When you look back when you were that age, is this something you would have done? I can tell you it wasn't. I didn't – I was too awkward to be doing any – I was not, you know, this whole hookup culture thing, you know? That was a different world, you know?

[00:29:31] [SPEAKER_01] But as far as, like, I don't know, leaving without telling anybody from a party, yeah, I could definitely see myself doing that. But let's look at what she has to say.

[00:29:41] [SPEAKER_11] I don't know. I wasn't thinking. Like, I wasn't thinking 20 steps ahead. Like, let me take my backpack, go stay at Jordan's. I can go to class in the morning. Like, I wasn't thinking that far in advance. I just knew that I wanted him to come pick me up. I wanted his company. I was sad. I just wanted to be with him. So I asked him to pick me up, and that's when we left.

[00:30:08] [SPEAKER_04] You said you'd seen Mr. – I believe it's him, Brandon Edwards, earlier at The Thrill? Yes. And you said seeing him made you feel kind of emotional? Yes.

[00:30:18] [SPEAKER_01] So, yeah, again, you're seeing the back and forth, and you're seeing behavior that she's sort of trying to contextualize as within what would have been expected in her state of mind, in her stage of life, what's going on with her level of intoxication that night. And you have the defense attorney pushing back and saying, no, I think this is weird. Isn't this weird? To the jury. And it's going to be up to the jury to decide what do they think is messy college student behavior?

[00:30:47] [SPEAKER_01] What does raise questions in their mind about her credibility? I'd be curious. I think after we finish with her clips, I might ask you where you stand, Kevin, just in terms of her demeanor and whatnot. I admit, I mean, there are definitely aspects of this story that are unusual, and we're going to get to one of them in particular involving the possibility of blood. And that's the sort of thing that gives you pause and makes you say, okay, is she telling the truth?

[00:31:15] [SPEAKER_01] Is something really happening beyond what she's saying? But we can go into kind of where we come down on that later on. Again, I referenced this earlier, but they talked about the multiple calls to Faith. The morning her body was discovered and the defense saying that seems really unusual. Could that be a sign that Karina knew something was wrong and has guilty knowledge? What's going on with that?

[00:31:45] [SPEAKER_01] Here's Karina responding to the defense's questions about that.

[00:31:49] [SPEAKER_11] I wouldn't say that's a lot in 90 minutes. No.

[00:31:54] [SPEAKER_04] So was that?

[00:32:00] [SPEAKER_11] I needed my notebook. I needed to write my essays. I didn't want to get a bad grade. I wasn't sure if she was home. And I just thought in my head, if she's at the apartment, then she can grab my stuff. If she's on campus, I can grab the key. I can get back to the apartment. But like I needed to know where she was and she wasn't picking up.

[00:32:25] [SPEAKER_11] I mean, I think 14 times in 90 minutes is actually kind of light for me to be.

[00:32:33] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah, you can kind of see some testiness from her in that moment, I think. You know, like to be quite frank. So, you know, there's that kind of back and forth. She's saying it's normal. They're sort of trying to imply that it isn't. I tend to agree with her.

[00:32:50] [SPEAKER_14] Yeah, I think I do too.

[00:32:52] [SPEAKER_01] Especially like you don't think anything's wrong. You're just like, oh, wake up. One thing it was testified to later on from Marisol Rangel, who is was a friend to both of them and actually was the one with Karina Rosario when they discovered Faith's body and went through that traumatic experience with her. She testified that Faith often slept in and kind of like that was a consistent trait with their friend.

[00:33:19] [SPEAKER_01] I could see someone kind of freaking out like, oh, my gosh, I got really drunk last night. I hooked up with this guy. I need to get my notes quickly or get a key to go get my notes. So I got to figure it out. Maybe Faith is still asleep. And maybe if I call her a couple of times, she'll wake up or she'll look at her phone and see the notifications. I don't know. It doesn't really seem that odd to me.

[00:33:38] [SPEAKER_01] One of the most interesting exchanges for me was between Rosario and the defense concerning this conversation that she had or that she allegedly had with Jordan about a little bit of blood on her finger.

[00:34:00] [SPEAKER_01] The story goes is that as he's driving her from her apartment to his where they're going to go watch a movie and hook up early that morning, she's essentially at some point staring at her finger and make some kind of comment of like, how did I get blood on my finger? Now, that's highly interesting given. It is indeed. What happened to Faith.

[00:34:30] [SPEAKER_01] And, you know, I think this is kind of where the prosecution strategy of telling the jury focus on the evidence, not the noise. Right. But, you know, it's also can be hard to determine what is evidence and what is noise in a case like this. And what I find interesting is Rosario does not deny this. The defense is kind of saying, like, did you say this? Did you say this?

[00:34:55] [SPEAKER_01] What she basically tells them is, I don't remember saying this to Jordan, but Jordan is not a liar. And if he says I said it, I believe him. And I probably did. I don't recall it, but I probably did.

[00:35:11] [SPEAKER_01] And what she puts forward as an explanation is that she had been drinking a lot of alcoholic red slushy type drinks that night and had been vomiting those up as a result of over intoxication. So what she thinks is that in her kind of still somewhat addled state, she sees a bit of vomit on her hands and is like, oh, is that blood?

[00:35:40] [SPEAKER_01] What do you think about that explanation?

[00:35:44] [SPEAKER_14] It sounds credible. What do you think? Yeah. Given what she's described of her activities that night, it certainly sounds credible. It's interesting that she credits what the witness said. She doesn't say. Even though she says she doesn't remember it, she's prepared to accept what the witness said. I think that goes to her credit.

[00:36:07] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah, I think that would make for if I were a juror, that would certainly make me more like, OK, well, she's like owning up to that. But I think when I look at that, I mean, it's definitely interesting. And like, I guess like true crime brain makes you want to be like everything, you know, everything means something really important. We got to freak out about it. Right. And it's like, I don't really. I don't I don't think that's a good way to think about anything. I think you have to look at the totality.

[00:36:30] [SPEAKER_01] Now, if Karina Rosario comes out of this story with a bunch of mysterious scratches on her and this this blood story that she mentions and she lawyers up immediately and doesn't talk to police. And, you know, like if the facts were different, then maybe I would weigh this differently. But the fact is, we know that she did not seemingly have any signs of having been in some kind of physical struggle.

[00:37:01] [SPEAKER_01] We don't really see any indications that. She, from what I can tell, was. Like at the crime scene or that there were two people at the crime scene, I don't know, it just to me, it's like. Like. How did she kill her friend and then get away without, like, making a whole big mess? And where's the blood on the clothing? Where's the blood on anything? You know, it just it doesn't add up.

[00:37:29] [SPEAKER_01] But what does add up is someone who's frankly. I don't mean this in a dismissive way, but like she's quite dramatic this evening. OK, because she's feeling hurt because she's feeling sad and lonely. And. I could see someone in that state of what she's described, like looking down and being is this blood, you know, like it. Yeah, it just it doesn't really seem to me like all that big of a deal.

[00:37:57] [SPEAKER_01] But I certainly understand and do not have any issue with the defense pushing it because I, you know, the jury should be able to ultimately weigh this. Next up on the list of the different. People testifying was a gentleman named Talib Cochrane, and this was a friend of faiths. I tried to clip some of his portions, but unfortunately they were too big to upload.

[00:38:26] [SPEAKER_01] So apologies, but I will just sort of summarize what he was saying. He was a gentleman who he and faith were friends. He described her as one of his closer female friends. He described faith and Karina as like sisters and being extremely close and even said, if you see one, you probably see the other. And he and faith actually also had a sexual relationship.

[00:38:51] [SPEAKER_01] They were friends, but they were also having sex and they were not exclusive, but there was that intimate aspect to their relationship. So he testified. He testified. And I think this is important because it speaks to the crime scene. He testified that on September 6th. So. Right before the murder, he.

[00:39:18] [SPEAKER_01] Faith came over to his apartment and visited with him and that during that interaction, they study. And at some point and I felt so bad for him because he, you know, he just seemed like a gentleman in the sense that he like didn't want to talk about this. But he's like, I'll testify to it. But like, I apologize to get into this with her family and all that. I mean, must be incredibly awkward. But. He testified that. They're studying. And at some point she performed oral sex on him. And.

[00:39:48] [SPEAKER_01] What he described is that. Normally they might have vaginal intercourse. Right. But that day she was on her period and she let him know that she was pretty blunt about that. But he testified that throughout all of their time hooking up or whatever you want to call it, they did not have vaginal intercourse when she was on her period. That was a boundary she seemed to have that she did not want to do that.

[00:40:17] [SPEAKER_01] And they didn't cross that line. And he just understood that she just did not want to do that. Why is that important? Well, that is important because when Faith was murdered, she was on her period. They found a bloody used tampon at the crime scene pulled out of her body. And.

[00:40:37] [SPEAKER_01] It seems like the idea that she would just randomly decide to hook up with a stranger in the early morning hours after helping her friend with this kind of disastrous club outing. And.

[00:40:54] [SPEAKER_01] And do that, but also eagerly want to have penetrative sex despite never wanting to do that with trusted intimate partners who she knows stretches the limits of the imagination. It truly does. Not to mention also semen was found in her rectum. So anal sex as well. So she suddenly were expected to believe.

[00:41:23] [SPEAKER_01] A willing consenting partner to a man that by all accounts, she does not know it all. Who's not a student at the college who. Is an older man who works in the area seemingly and that's his only connection who has relatives living in that apartment complex. Who. Yeah. No, no seeming content, no documented content contact. She's not telling people, oh, I met a guy named Miguel. I met this guy. Nothing.

[00:41:52] [SPEAKER_01] Talib Cochrane mentioned never heard of this guy, never seen him around. He was friends with some of her friends like he would see them and he had no idea who this guy was. So, yeah, some of that stuff was unfortunate or awkward to hear because, you know, you want you want people's privacy to be maintained. But I think it was important because it sort of spoke to. Yes, this is college.

[00:42:22] [SPEAKER_01] People are hooking up. The sex can be very casual. But that doesn't mean that people don't have boundaries or limits or preferences. And you have to take that into account because if the defenses thing is, well, maybe she would just hook up with anybody. To me, I don't find that super realistic because we heard from a guy she was having sex with and it seemed like. He knew her pretty well.

[00:42:49] [SPEAKER_01] They had that friendship just because it wasn't a necessarily defined relationship doesn't mean there wasn't a lot of trust and affection within that. And we heard that from him. He described her as a remarkable person. And I don't know. It just it seems like. It's kind of going to be hard to overcome. What I would love to hear from the defense that would make me feel like, OK, maybe they've got something here is some kind of contact or relationship between their client and the victim.

[00:43:21] [SPEAKER_01] Because this case to me looks very different if there can be some established relationship between them versus if he's a stranger. To me, if he's a stranger, I think he's in a really bad position here because we're having to believe that she just takes him on as a sexual partner. Seemingly the night she happened to get murdered and did all these things that she seemingly wasn't normally doing.

[00:43:46] [SPEAKER_01] And I think that can be a stretch for a jury if they're able to say, OK, actually, they did have some kind of relationship. Maybe it becomes easier for the jury to say, well, maybe he's just unlucky. I think the I think the relationship or lack thereof what the defense has on this will be very important. What do you think?

[00:44:08] [SPEAKER_14] Yeah, I think it's a very difficult claim to credit. Based on everything we know about this woman, and I think a jury would not be likely to accept that version.

[00:44:21] [SPEAKER_01] I would think not. You never know what a jury is going to do. You never know. But it's hard for me to believe personally. But again, there might be more information lurking ahead that might challenge what the state has put out so far. So I think we have to be open minded to that because they might be able to pull out something with like, hey, no, they would hang out. See, or they work together here. See, or, you know, they had this mutual friend who introduced them. They might have something.

[00:44:48] [SPEAKER_01] And if they have something, perhaps then it would be easier for the jury to come to a different conclusion. Another gentleman they talked to was Irving Mitch Mitchell. He goes by Mitch. And I will play some clips from that. This gentleman was, I believe he owned a security company.

[00:45:09] [SPEAKER_01] He knew Faith and Karina and some of their friends they met because he would provide security to the thrill. So he got to know them from that because they would frequent. And he described them as good people who were not ever causing a bunch of problems or fights or anything like that.

[00:45:29] [SPEAKER_01] So what the state used him for was to kind of authenticate and look at and describe and analyze footage that was taken showing Karina and Faith departing or arriving to and then later departing from the thrill, which is where the nightclub, the nightclub they were at before the murder.

[00:45:52] [SPEAKER_12] We are looking at right now is the main entrance to the thrill nightclub.

[00:46:32] [SPEAKER_12] The door is right here.

[00:46:33] [SPEAKER_08] Again, this is just the entry.

[00:47:03] [SPEAKER_12] Yes, that's me. I'm the one in the security shirt.

[00:47:17] [SPEAKER_01] So, yeah, we are seeing there the entry. I'm sorry about the squeaky noise in the background. Our dog, Nick, decided at that moment it was an opportune time to come show me his favorite squeaky toy. So that is what you were hearing there. It's not from the original footage. So that's them coming in. Now let's watch them departing. This is perhaps even more important because this is kind of establishing the time they left.

[00:47:44] [SPEAKER_01] Now, the thing about the time they left is it's shaky because this time stamp apparently is off by a number of minutes. But let's hear from Mitch himself.

[00:47:59] [SPEAKER_08] At that point in time, like, again, when the surveillance is rolling, it looks like it's like a tube top shirt with shorts.

[00:49:17] [SPEAKER_12] Yes, it seems as if like Karina and Faith planned their outfits together that night. But she's also wearing a tube style shirt with shorts as well.

[00:49:29] [SPEAKER_01] One thing I was curious about, Kevin, is oftentimes you have the judge really trying to drill down and say, OK, why don't you describe what you're seeing? Why is it important to really be super detailed rather than just pointing vaguely, rather than just saying, oh, the woman in the video? Why is it so important to be so specific for the record?

[00:49:49] [SPEAKER_14] Because the record is not visual. It is words on a transcript. And you want it to be very clear to people who are reading that transcript precisely what is being referred to.

[00:50:02] [SPEAKER_01] Yes. So that is, you know, if you're wondering, OK, why is the judge really delving into this? That is why. That's his job to keep everything running smoothly. Absolutely. So another witness that came up next was somebody we've heard a lot about, Jordan McCrary. Kevin, I've described to you some of, you know, Jordan's actions and sort of how he's involved in this whole in this whole story so far.

[00:50:26] [SPEAKER_01] What are some things that you would expect the state might want from him or that you might want from him in terms of learning about what happened?

[00:50:34] [SPEAKER_14] I think I would be very interested in hearing from him some details about her demeanor, how she seemed to him, her state of intoxication or lack thereof. Did she seem upset? If so, about what? Things of that nature.

[00:50:51] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. He really plays an important role within this story. So I think wanting to know all of that absolutely makes sense. I would want to know the same things and I was certainly, you know, eager to hear what he had to say. So some of the things he testified to corroborate Rosario, talking about some of her state of mind that night, saying that she had been physically abused to him,

[00:51:17] [SPEAKER_01] saying that she wanted him to pick her up, basically her calling him, saying, please come get me. And he drives up to the apartment complex. She's given him directions. She's outside when he gets there. And then they're driving back to his place. And there's that whole interaction about the blood. So let's hear from Jordan now.

[00:51:46] [SPEAKER_01] And one interesting aspect of this is that in his testimony, Jordan was actually shown and the entire courtroom was shown a video from back in 2012. This was of an interview between McCrary and the police investigating what happened. And here is where we sort of see the blood story. And I'll be curious about what your thoughts are on this, because at this point, I was very much like, OK, I want to know more about this blood.

[00:52:16] [SPEAKER_01] What is going on with this? And I really want to hear what Jordan McCrary's story about this is. Like, I was highly, highly interested because I feel like that's pretty important, right? Like figuring out getting to the bottom of that is important.

[00:52:27] [SPEAKER_02] So when she got in your car, it was a small smudge of blood.

[00:52:47] [SPEAKER_02] And she was like, I don't know why I'm putting my thing around here. She got hit. And like I've said, we just kept on dropping her off.

[00:53:14] [SPEAKER_02] And she was just talking about, like, her text a little bit. And by the time we just got home, we were just on the way. We just literally just talked about the text and stuff. And got home. We went out to my room. Hang on one second. So do you remember about how far you had gotten away from the apartment when you noticed the blood?

[00:53:41] [SPEAKER_02] It was literally maybe not even 10 seconds, a minute. Had you gotten out of the complex yet? No. How did you see it? It was just down with her finger like this. She literally was just like this with her hands. Was she fidgeting with her hands? She wasn't fidgeting. She was like looking at it, like going like this. And I remember looking over like that. And she was like literally just like, I don't know how I got this. Was it light in your car? It was a little bit at first.

[00:54:11] [SPEAKER_02] When I first got in, the light came on and the door opened. And you saw it? Yeah. Was the light on what you saw? Yeah. How much was on there? Not much at all. Like I would say, like not even a thumbprint's worth. Just like a little smudging within here. Was it on her right hand? Yeah. Or around to look at the closet seat? Blood on her right hand? Yeah. Or right finger? Yeah.

[00:54:40] [SPEAKER_02] Was it index finger? Or did you tell? I would say index. Not sure exactly. But within one of the two top fingers. You asked her what happened? Yeah. And she told you she doesn't know.

[00:54:53] [SPEAKER_01] All right. So we're hearing now Jordan's version of this. Things that strike me, it really doesn't sound like a lot of whatever the substance was. I mean, to me, that's like if he shows up and she's kind of spattered and red.

[00:55:13] [SPEAKER_14] One thing that strikes me goes back to what she herself said. He comes across as a credible witness. Oh, yeah. No matter what it was we conclude that he saw on her finger. I believe what he's describing is clearly something that happened.

[00:55:32] [SPEAKER_01] I completely believe him. So, I mean, I find him credible too. And I just tend to look at this and sort of what he's describing is odd, but it's not.

[00:55:47] [SPEAKER_01] It doesn't match enough with what we know about this brutal crime, which as we're going to learn when we hear from the forensic technician included a lot of blood spatter because it's basically someone beating another person to death. A tiny smudge doesn't really fit in with that. So the next person we end up hearing from is Linda Hope. This is a retired 911 operator and EMS dispatcher.

[00:56:17] [SPEAKER_01] This is the woman who actually took the 911 call from Karina Rosario. Now, if I recall my true crime lore correctly, I've listened to podcasts where people play this audio and sort of say that Karina Rosario sounds very suspicious. I wanted to play it here and kind of see if we still think that or does this fit in with what she's explained and testified to so far.

[00:56:46] [SPEAKER_01] Does context change anything? So let's listen.

[00:56:50] [SPEAKER_16] No, I'm not having one. Where is your emergency?

[00:56:56] [SPEAKER_15] I just want to tell my partner and my friend is waiting for you to be unconscious.

[00:57:03] [SPEAKER_16] Okay, what's your address, ma'am? I live at Hope. I have to see you. Oh, give me the address.

[00:57:12] [SPEAKER_15] I just moved here. I'm about to get it. Oh, my God. 639 Old Chapel Hill Road syndrome.

[00:57:26] Okay.

[00:57:30] [SPEAKER_16] Repeat it. Repeat it. Repeat it. I'm not sure I've got it correct.

[00:57:35] Okay.

[00:57:36] [SPEAKER_15] 5, 6, 6, 3, 9, 0, Chapel Hill Road. Okay. We're going to keep you up here.

[00:57:42] [SPEAKER_16] 16, I'm 10.

[00:57:43] [SPEAKER_01] So that's a snippet. I'm going to play the part where Karina seems to be having a really hard time going and touching Faith's body. And what the 911 operator is trying to get her to do is touch it to see basically if she's dead so that she can either direct her into giving CPR, first aid, things like that, or let police know that an ambulance essentially is not needed.

[00:58:08] [SPEAKER_16] Okay. Okay. If you can, lay her flat on her back. Remove any pills. Lay her flat on her back? Flat on her back. Remove any pills. Okay. Okay. Kneel next to her. Look in her mouth for food or vomit. What? Really? Okay. Kneel next to her. Look in her mouth for food or vomit. What? Tell me something. Listen to me. Listen to me. What is your name?

[00:58:39] [SPEAKER_16] Karina. I'm sorry. I'm really tired. It's okay, honey. It's okay, honey. Listen to me. No. Okay. All right.

[00:58:46] All right. All right.

[00:58:47] [SPEAKER_16] Listen to me. When you touch her, how does she feel? Does she feel warm?

[00:58:54] [SPEAKER_07] No, she feels cold.

[00:58:56] [SPEAKER_16] She feels cold? Okay.

[00:58:57] [SPEAKER_07] Yes.

[00:58:58] [SPEAKER_16] Okay. All right. Don't touch anything else. Okay? Don't touch anything else.

[00:59:03] [SPEAKER_07] Don't touch anything. Don't touch anything.

[00:59:06] [SPEAKER_16] Okay. They're on their way. I've got police on the line to you, and I've got that hit.

[00:59:12] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah. I mean, it's tough to listen to. It's very difficult to listen to.

[00:59:17] [SPEAKER_14] You really feel for her, and what a terrible situation to be in.

[00:59:21] [SPEAKER_01] It really is. It really is. It's, yeah. It's tough, especially, I don't know, like, no one would ever expect that. Certainly. Certainly not happening to someone they care about and love. You just think it's a normal day, right? And then suddenly you're in a nightmare. So, yeah. It's hard to listen to. It certainly sounds like somebody panicking and freaking out to me.

[00:59:45] [SPEAKER_01] I think there were other portions of the 911 call where people were saying, oh, she kind of calms down quickly. When I listened to the whole thing play out in court, I mean, nothing really stuck out to me as far as being like, this is fake.

[01:00:02] [SPEAKER_14] It sounds very real to me. Yeah, it does sound fake.

[01:00:05] [SPEAKER_01] I mean, that's just my gut. Something can sound really good and be suspicious ultimately, right? Like, people can fake emotion. People who don't seem to have a quote-unquote normal reaction could be innocent. It's not to say that how something plays is the end-all be-all. I guess I mention it because I'm confused as to why. I don't know. My perception was this was always treated as like, oh, this is so suspicious.

[01:00:35] [SPEAKER_01] And, like, when I listen to it, I just see, like, I hear a very upset young woman who's freaking out. This next witness I mentioned earlier, Marisol Rangel, she was a friend to Faith as well as to Karina. And we're going to hear from her. So she is somebody who drove Karina back to the apartment with Faith and then discovered the body with her.

[01:00:59] [SPEAKER_01] She describes freezing, kind of, and having Karina react quicker to call 911. And she describes the horror of what she saw. And she also gets into the conversation she was having with Karina right beforehand. And, you know, this could—if you're looking at this with a suspicious eye towards Karina, I could see how this could help the defense.

[01:01:22] [SPEAKER_01] But she says Karina made some comments about being worried Faith might be mad at her because she got really drunk the previous night. So if you're the defense, maybe it's like, oh, trouble in paradise between the best friends. She thinks someone's mad at her. Maybe they had a fight and she killed her. I think that's a stretch based on what we've heard of the evidence so far. But I think it is worth noting that. Let's hear from Marisol.

[01:01:48] [SPEAKER_01] This is, again, just very sad that these young ladies saw their friend like this.

[01:01:58] [SPEAKER_06] So I told Karina I would go up with her to the apartment just because I know Karina had an assignment due. And I knew Faith had to get a class as well. So I told her, let me go up there. They're going to take a lot of get ready. So let me just go with you guys and I'll take you both to campus instead of y'all having to ride the bus or try to get there.

[01:02:23] [SPEAKER_06] And we walked up and we, Karina opened the door and then we were calling Faith because we thought she had overslept because she wasn't answering our calls. We're like, Faith, Faith. Like just, um, and we weren't, um, no one was answering. So we're walking through, um, and, sorry.

[01:02:54] [SPEAKER_07] To the bedroom. At first you could see there's just blood everywhere. Walked in and, um, there's just blood everywhere. It looked like brain matter and just different things.

[01:03:21] [SPEAKER_07] And, um, and, um, Faith was like somewhat wrapped in a comforter. And so we just, it just froze. Um, and we had a call for 911.

[01:03:35] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah, I mean, yeah. When I, when I see Marisol and Karina reacting emotionally all these years later, like 14 years later to what they saw then, I just see two young women who are continuing to relive what was an extremely traumatic event. That's what I see.

[01:04:05] [SPEAKER_14] That's what I see too. And it is very, it's just heartbreaking to even begin to contemplate what they saw and what they had to deal with.

[01:04:15] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah, I can't imagine being close to somebody and then thinking you're coming in like, wake up, it's time for class. And then finding them in that state. The shock and horror. Marisol also testified to the relationship. She talked about how Karina and Faith were closer with each other than with her. She was a little bit older. She was kind of in and out of school. And they were, these two were just like sisters.

[01:04:45] [SPEAKER_01] She was close with them too, but she just, they were really quite a pair. And she also talked about how in the wake of the murders, Karina really struggled. And had trouble eating and all of this. Kind of speaking to the bond, you know. And again, I feel like that's the prosecution being a little bit of like, okay, you want to, you want to make Karina look bad to the jury? Good luck. You know, she sounds like a devoted friend.

[01:05:11] [SPEAKER_01] At least that is what they're probably hoping for, that they're going to take from that. Now, one thing I would note that so far we've really largely heard from the, mostly the civilian side, with the exception, of course, of the 911 operator. Just in terms of like, these are people who are not at all affiliated with anything law enforcement. These are mostly college kids who went through this experience.

[01:05:39] [SPEAKER_01] And the person we're going to hear from next is a bit different from that. This is Michael Castro. He was a Chapel Hill police officer when this happened. He was one of the first responders to come to the scene. And he's going to testify a bit about what he found when he arrived in that apartment.

[01:05:57] [SPEAKER_03] Went into the bedroom and she was on the far side of the bed, kind of half on, half off. And she had a black shirt that was up around near her neck. And the comforter was kind of covering the bottom half of her body.

[01:06:16] [SPEAKER_10] Did you attempt to render any aid to her?

[01:06:19] [SPEAKER_03] No, ma'am.

[01:06:19] [SPEAKER_10] Why not?

[01:06:20] [SPEAKER_03] Because Officer NS had already checked on her before we arrived.

[01:06:25] [SPEAKER_10] Did she appear to you to be alive at that point?

[01:06:28] [SPEAKER_03] No, ma'am.

[01:06:29] [SPEAKER_10] Did you notice anything else unusual in the bedroom other than just the deceased female?

[01:06:36] [SPEAKER_03] When we entered, noticed blood splatter on the walls behind her and over near the closet. And then also there was blood on the bed.

[01:06:47] [SPEAKER_10] Back in September of 2012, were you issued a body-worn camera? No, ma'am. Did you have one at that point at all? No, ma'am.

[01:06:57] [SPEAKER_01] So that's interesting to remember. This is very much a pre-body camera era. We're not going to be able to see, unfortunately, the police officers going through the scene. We probably wouldn't be seeing it because it would probably be very graphic. But the jury is not going to see that. But at the very least, that explains it. And he's describing a brutal crime scene. And we're going to actually go even deeper into the crime scene with this next witness, Tamika Price.

[01:07:25] [SPEAKER_01] So Tamika Price was a Chapel Hill Police Forensic Evidence Technician. That is her expertise. She's going to be the one going in with her colleagues and processing a scene like this and trying to get as much evidence as possible and document the scene as best as possible. So we're going to hear her testimony. And we're also going to see footage that was taken as part of this investigation that she's going to sort of comment on and walk us through.

[01:07:54] [SPEAKER_05] We're going to pause right here at this section of the video recording. Can you tell the jury what they just saw and what they're looking at here in this pause still frame?

[01:08:25] [SPEAKER_09] What you're looking at here in this video is building 1500. This is where the crime scene occurred. And this is a partial overview of the parking lot, which is right in front of building 1500.

[01:08:38] [SPEAKER_05] All right. And I'm going to play it from here. And it's paused this next section. Can you tell the jury what they're looking at here?

[01:08:59] [SPEAKER_09] I'm going to play it from here.

[01:09:46] [SPEAKER_01] That is some of the footage. One question, Kevin, people might have is like, OK, they're filming a parking lot. Why? Why go into that level of detail as they're trying as part of the state's case in chief?

[01:10:00] [SPEAKER_14] I think it's very important in a murder trial that the jury have an opportunity to see the area around the crime as it appeared at the time of the crime or close to that date. If you live in any city, if you live anywhere, you know, there's often new construction. Things change. Certainly we've just lived in our neighborhood for a few years already. It's quite different than it was when we moved here.

[01:10:26] [SPEAKER_14] So I think it's important to capture and document the area of the crime as it was at the time and share that with the jury.

[01:10:34] [SPEAKER_01] One interesting thing, in my opinion, is that I felt. Oh, and here comes Nicholas. He's come to pay a call. It's like, I'm done with you guys doing this. Come pay attention to me. I'm sorry, Nick. We'll wrap it up soon. This is the last witness. So one thing that actually I found a little bit amusing with this section, or amusing is probably the wrong word.

[01:10:57] [SPEAKER_01] But with that, I remember when they showed the map of the apartment complex, it almost looks like a road goes through it and then continues. And I remember thinking, oh, maybe there's more than one entrance and exit to this place. That could be interesting. Could the killer have come through that? Like my mind started going. And what they're doing here is shutting that down.

[01:11:22] [SPEAKER_01] Like, no, it looks like on the map, like it's a part of the road, but it actually ends right here. So they're almost like cutting off questions from people like me who might be on the jury as it arises. So anyways, that was interesting. Here's some more of Tamika Price's testimony. And just as a note, the prosecutor doing this direct examination is Brooke Stone, one of the assistant district attorneys from Durham County.

[01:11:50] [SPEAKER_01] And one thing that's interesting is also we're seeing some of the reactions from CORE TV's cameras from the defendant himself and how he's sort of taking all this in.

[01:12:09] [SPEAKER_05] I'm going to continue to play the recording from here. All right. This next section that's paused, can you tell the jury what they're looking at here?

[01:12:22] [SPEAKER_09] What you're looking at here would be the bed in the room where the crime scene occurred, as well as very bloody pillows that were at the top of the bed. And you can also see Faith.

[01:12:39] [SPEAKER_05] I'm going to zoom in on this portion here.

[01:12:45] [SPEAKER_09] And you can see Faith Lane over on the left side of the bed as well. And this is her head.

[01:12:51] [SPEAKER_12] We're going to give him the license to do that. Yes, sir.

[01:12:57] [SPEAKER_01] So we're seeing that. And as we note, we can't see the crime scene here. We're only hearing her description of it because it would not be appropriate for the court to publish that level of graphic imagery all over the place. One aspect of crime scene investigation that often is under discussed is photography.

[01:13:17] [SPEAKER_01] Photography, and we know this from interviewing CSIs ourselves, but photography is really a huge part of it because that allows somebody to document the scene fully and show the jury, here's what happened. Right. They can't freeze the room in time, but they kind of can through photography. So we're going to hear Ms. Price discuss some of what we're seeing here.

[01:13:41] [SPEAKER_05] What's depicted here that you photographed?

[01:13:44] [SPEAKER_09] What's depicted here is the right side of the bed. You can see the bloody pillows at the top of the bed in the area with the blood splatter. You can also see there's a trash can that contains what appears to vomit inside. And as well as you can see more blood splatter on the wall and the nightstand with miscellaneous items and photographs.

[01:14:10] All right.

[01:14:11] [SPEAKER_05] And I'm moving on to Steve.

[01:14:13] [SPEAKER_01] So I thought this was interesting. She mentioned specifically we're seeing a trash can filled with vomit. And they actually show pictures of that, and it shows kind of a red substance within that trash can. So to me, when I'm analyzing Rosario's credibility or lack thereof or kind of weighing that, when she says, Faith got me this can, I threw up in it.

[01:14:41] [SPEAKER_01] And then we're sort of just seeing that when that's holding together, that can be something. And I can imagine it going the opposite way if you don't find that. And then it's like, OK, but you said you threw up. So where is that? So that's kind of interesting to see some of the interplay. I feel like the state is doing a pretty good job of putting this together. It's easy to follow. It was interesting to watch the defendant's reactions to what he was seeing on the screen. But frankly, again, human experience is so varied.

[01:15:10] [SPEAKER_01] And I think if anyone was accused of murder and put under the spotlight like that, I don't they might make faces that we think of in a negative way. You know, I mean, I feel like I would probably make weird faces. So I never really like to look too much at that. For what? You know, I just don't find it that helpful. What do you think?

[01:15:29] [SPEAKER_14] Yeah, I agree. You can't read too much. I don't.

[01:15:32] [SPEAKER_01] Body language isn't like a real thing. Like there's like there's people who are neuro atypical. Like there's just like there's just too many variations of everything. And you are fighting for your life with these dogs at this time. So I think we're going to stop there. So this was another day for the state. We are seeing their case roll out. I think it's important, though, to remember the defense will be able to have their opportunity,

[01:15:58] [SPEAKER_01] put their own experts on their own witnesses. And they will be trying to dispel some of what the state is doing here. And we should kind of give them that opportunity to come in and say their piece, too. So I'll be very eagerly anticipating that. And we will continue to cover this case. And just to end on, I think, what I think is an appropriate note, given the circumstances, let's all just remember the young woman at the heart of this, Faith Hedgepeth.

[01:16:27] [SPEAKER_01] Whatever you think about guilt or innocence or your thoughts on this trial or your thoughts on the witnesses, I think it's important to remember that this really great 19-year-old who was just starting out lost her life in a really tragic and brutal set of circumstances. And our thoughts go out to her family and to all those who knew and loved her. Thank you so much for listening.

[01:16:51] [SPEAKER_14] Thanks so much for listening to The Murder Sheet. If you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover, please email us at murdersheet at gmail dot com. If you have actionable information about an unsolved crime, please report it to the appropriate authorities.

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[01:17:35] [SPEAKER_14] Special thanks to Kevin Tyler Greenlee, who composed the music for The Murder Sheet, and who you can find on the web at kevintg.com.

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