The Murder of Scott Macklem: A Conversation with Journalist Josie Duffy Rice on Temujin Kensu and The Backfire Effect: Part One

[00:00:00] [SPEAKER_01] I'm Kevin and this is the first part of our discussion with Josie Duffy Rice about The Backfire Effect.

[00:00:06] [SPEAKER_02] Content Warning, this episode contains discussion of rape, abuse, violence and murder.

[00:00:11] [SPEAKER_01] The Backfire Effect is a new podcast series covering the murder of Scott Macklem. It's from the company Pushkin and is hosted by journalist Josie Duffy Rice.

[00:00:20] [SPEAKER_02] I confess we came into this somewhat skeptical of the Backfire Effect because we kind of got the sense it was going to advocate for Temujin Kensu's innocence. And we can't speak for them, but we imagine the feeling might have been mutual given our coverage.

[00:00:34] [SPEAKER_01] But we are happy to say that when we got to listen to it, we were pleased that while we did indeed strongly disagree with the show's ultimate conclusions, it featured a lot of reporting and efforts to get different people on the record. Efforts to put out different facts gleaned from the case files. We appreciate that a lot. We also liked that the show did not seek to sling mud at Crystal, Scott's fiancee and the mother of his child, and in fact addressed in some depth that Kensu has harmed many women.

[00:01:01] [SPEAKER_02] We've made no secret of the fact that we strongly believe in Kensu's guilt, but we've sought out other opinions in the case from people we respect and admire, like Julia from the consult and Brett from the prosecutors, who feel differently than we do. We think that this is super important. So here, once again, we will be doing just that. Josie was kind enough to invite us on to the backfire effect for a bonus episode where we tried to lay out the case for guilt, at least as far as we see it. We wanted her on our program to do the same,

[00:01:29] [SPEAKER_02] lay out some of the reasons why she favors innocence and to ask us some tough questions about our coverage. It's a really interesting discussion, we feel.

[00:01:37] [SPEAKER_01] We disagree, again, with a conclusion that Josie and the backfire effect came to, but we appreciate the depth of her reporting and her care to not silence or demean women who suffered harm in this case in the hands of Mr. Kensu. We have always said that that, and not differing opinions, was our line in the sand. Sometimes when we feel stuff crosses a line as far as victim blaming goes, we're going nuclear. You've listened to us do that in this case, but in this instance, we didn't feel that.

[00:02:06] [SPEAKER_01] And so we were glad that Josie was open to talking with us and having a dialogue about this case. And we really respect Josie and come to really enjoy talking with her.

[00:02:16] [SPEAKER_02] My name is Anya Kane. I'm a journalist.

[00:02:18] [SPEAKER_01] And I'm Kevin Greenlee. I'm an attorney. And this is The Murder Sheet. We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews, and deep dives into murder cases.

[00:02:29] [SPEAKER_02] We're The Murder Sheet.

[00:02:31] [SPEAKER_01] And this is The Murder of Scott Macklem, a conversation with journalist Josie Duffy Rice on Temujin Kensu and the backfire effect, part one.

[00:02:41] [SPEAKER_02] All right.

[00:03:26] [SPEAKER_02] Well, first of all, Josie, thank you so much for coming on The Murder Sheet. It's so great to have you. Thank you so much for having me. I'm thrilled to be here. Absolutely. I guess to start off with, can you just tell our audience a little bit about yourself? Maybe talk us through your career trajectory. Career is fascinating to me. Talk us through that. What got you into sort of this journalism and the intersection of the justice system and whatnot?

[00:03:49] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah. I mean, I describe my career as trial and error. Like whenever anybody is like, how did you get to where you are? I'm like, well, I was bad at a lot of things. And then I just, I just moved those out of the purview of what I was going to do and try to focus on what I'm good at. So I, after college, worked at the public defender's office in the Bronx. Always wanted to write. And my parents were like, that's not a viable career. Why don't you go to law school?

[00:04:20] [SPEAKER_03] Left the public defender's office and went to law school. Graduated and went into a legal job for a couple of years doing policy work. That job was mostly like local policy oriented, which was a very good primer for how decisions get made on a local level. Even when we think of them as national systems, I would think of policing as an example of that, right?

[00:04:44] [SPEAKER_03] Like how much of what happens in your local police department or your local prosecutor's office is really just about the local politics who got elected there. How things might be different if you were one county over, et cetera. So I did that work for a few years. And then I left that job and was like, what am I going to do with my life? I felt like I was so old. I was like 28. I was like, what am I going to do with my life?

[00:05:12] [SPEAKER_03] And saw a tweet about a possible job covering prosecutors as a journalist. It was like a bulk coverage job, like you're publishing every day or trying to publish every day. But I had been really interested in prosecutors ever since I worked at the public defender's office because I had gotten to that job not really understanding the impact that prosecutors had on people's lives.

[00:05:36] [SPEAKER_03] And I could see very quickly that the impact that the local prosecutor had was the relationship. There was an inverse relationship between that and how much people cared about their local prosecutor. This was 2015 when I got this job writing. So talking about prosecutors was only then coming under the forefront.

[00:05:57] [SPEAKER_03] I left that job and got a job at the appeal and eventually became president of the appeal where I helped kind of determine the coverage of the site and also spent a lot of time trying to raise money for it. And then eventually after having two children and feeling like I should see them once a week at least, I left that job and have been working kind of in a freelance capacity ever since.

[00:06:23] [SPEAKER_03] The interesting thing about podcasts is that I would not think of myself as a podcast person. I'm definitely a print person in terms of like how I best take in information. But, you know, when you work in journalism, I always say I'm dogmatic about content and agnostic about form. I probably should not be covering like the local chamber of commerce in print, right?

[00:06:48] [SPEAKER_03] So if it's between covering criminal justice and the criminal justice system and all of the things that intersect with that, which go from obviously individual decisions to arrest to policy to crime to schools to infrastructure, all of this stuff that like touches that system. I'm going to do it in audio rather than cover something else in print. You know, beggars can't be choosers and journalism is full of beggars. I think we can all acknowledge that. That is a short version of my career.

[00:07:18] [SPEAKER_01] When we've talked before, you once made the comment that you're not usually drawn to this sort of case, this sort of full conviction, innocence case. So that kind of raised the question in my mind, what kind of case are you usually drawn to?

[00:07:32] [SPEAKER_03] I'm interested in big questions. I'm interested in like, how do we think about guilt? How do we determine guilt? Right. What are our kind of obligations as part of a society, civilians and then also as like elected officials when I'm covering elected officials?

[00:07:48] [SPEAKER_03] So I mostly think that what is best, the best way to highlight those stories is often people who are guilty of what they've been accused of doing, because I find innocent stories to be overrepresented in media. Right. And I get why, obviously, innocent story. Like when you hear that someone has been incarcerated for something that they didn't do, it's horrific and it pulls at people's heartstrings in a particular way.

[00:08:13] [SPEAKER_03] And I don't think that's a bad thing at all. I just have always thought, well, that's well covered. Let me cover something else. So, you know, my previous like years long project before this one was one about the Alabama Industrial School for Negro Children, which was an institution that actually still exists. They did change the name. Got to give Alabama that. But the place still exists.

[00:08:36] [SPEAKER_03] And it exists. It was a facility for, you know, juveniles who had been accused and convicted of criminal crimes when they were kids. Lots of them were guilty of what they had been accused of, whether it was like stealing a car or skipping school or being unmanageable at home, whatever the kind of language they used. But then that to me opens up a question of like, what does that guilt mean?

[00:09:03] [SPEAKER_03] How do we want to address that guilt? How do we want to rehabilitate children or adults? What's the function of incarceration? And also, what else could that charge look like? Because as you all know, and you definitely, Kevin, as a lawyer, like what we charge people with is its own political decision. Are you going to be charged with drug possession? Are you charged with drug distribution? Are you going to be charged with involuntary manslaughter if a friend uses your drugs that you sold them and dies?

[00:09:31] [SPEAKER_03] Are you going to be charged with murder? All of these are possible ways of addressing one incident. And so that has always also always been kind of interesting to me. But yes, this is unlike my work generally.

[00:09:44] [SPEAKER_01] Those other things you talk about do sound very interesting. So again, that raises the question that how did this happen? How did you get involved in this case in particular?

[00:09:52] [SPEAKER_03] When I first heard about this case and someone said like, you should look into it, it was like a friend of mine who was like, you should look into this case. And I was like, I will look into this case and not like I'll Google it and read the articles and whatever. But this is not a case I'm going to spend. Just off the bat, I was like, this is not a case for me. Because it was an instance case, it just, it wasn't really, I usually focus on the South. Like it just wasn't, didn't feel like my wheelhouse.

[00:10:17] [SPEAKER_03] But I am, like I said, prosecutors are a big part of my coverage. And this to me had every element of what I find concerning about prosecutorial power. The politics of it, I felt like it had junk science, you know, jailhouse witnesses, crazy rebuttal theories, and just the politically motivated prosecutor. So there was all this stuff that we can obviously get into more, but that to me was a list of stuff that I had always found kind of interesting.

[00:10:48] [SPEAKER_03] And also, as I'm sure nobody will be surprised to hear, like Temujin Kensu's incredibly persistent, right? And he kind of kept saying, I hope you'll give more time to this case, like in the way that he could say that. So through other people and through friends and stuff. So somehow I woke up and it had been like three years since I started. I was like, oh my God, where did the time go? But it is, I mean, there's so much here.

[00:11:14] [SPEAKER_03] In some ways, I think it really is a microcosm of a lot of issues that the criminal justice system faces. Timogen can be pretty persistent, not directly. This was kind of before I had talked to him directly, but he, you know, really kept pushing through other people saying, like, I think this would be an interesting case for you to look at. So that's kind of how I got here.

[00:11:36] [SPEAKER_03] I think also I'm really interested in Herb's role in this has been like very interesting to me because of what I think is a big risk he's taken and kind of looking into this given his personality. But yeah, it kind of had everything to me, including, I'll just say, aside from John Bounds, who like, I feel like the jury's a little out on his soul.

[00:12:03] [SPEAKER_03] But it had a lot of people who I felt like had come to the wrong decision based on logical choices. Like the incentive structure makes sense and the choices people make under that incentive structure make sense, which opens up a different kind of question, right?

[00:12:19] [SPEAKER_02] I'm curious, you know, we're kind of like getting into process and I'm kind of fascinated to know what yours was for tackling this case and maybe what were some of the challenges that came with tackling this as a journalist? Yeah.

[00:12:33] [SPEAKER_03] I mean, you know, as a journalist, like we're talking about 40 years, right? So you can't go walk around a St. Clair County Community College and ask, does anybody remember anything? You can't, you know, people are gone. People have died. Their spouses have died. Their papers are gone. Finding information is incredibly difficult. Record keeping has shifted so drastically. And institutional memory, right?

[00:12:59] [SPEAKER_03] Like people are not institutions, both official institutions, like police departments and prosecutors offices, and then unofficial, like the business department and looking at stuff about the karate school or basic record keeping of like where people live and when. Those are haphazard and not, what's the word I'm looking for? Not thorough and imperfect.

[00:13:23] [SPEAKER_03] And so there's a lot of stuff, I'm sure there's a lot of information that could have been useful in this case that we'll never have just because we never got it and the time has passed. I think that the thing that has been, and I would say the other hard thing, even though I completely understand it and would probably make the same decision if I were them, you know, a lot of people don't want to talk. And a lot of people connected to Scott Macklin don't want to talk.

[00:13:46] [SPEAKER_03] Like, my mom had a sibling die in the 80s, and I have a feeling that if someone reached out and wanted to talk about the actual, like, accident that led to her death versus her as a person, my mom wouldn't want to talk either. It's a very, like, it's totally understandable to me, but it does limit, as you know, when you're a journalist, like, that is limiting. The good stuff is, like, Timogen loves to talk, right?

[00:14:15] [SPEAKER_03] And so that's been helpful. I've gotten to talk to a lot of people. I've had access to a lot of other interviews, thanks to Herb. And, you know, I have found in general, like, the Michigan infrastructure willing to talk, whether it's just to defend themselves or not. But there has been, not by everybody, but there has usually been someone in an office or someone who's, like, willing to talk to me, even if it's just off the record. So that part has been good.

[00:14:41] [SPEAKER_03] But, you know, like any sort of big investigative project, you're left with what don't I know and what will I never know? And that is a little haunting.

[00:14:50] [SPEAKER_01] This message is sponsored by Greenlight.

[00:14:53] [SPEAKER_02] We live in the golden age of scams. These fraudsters drain our money, our time, our energy, and our happiness. Every day we're bombarded by emails and texts from creeps trying to steal our money. And it's not just us. It's our grandparents and elderly parents and kids, too. We've had it happen in our family when an elderly relative's email got hacked. It's really upsetting when it happens to you or people you care about.

[00:15:19] [SPEAKER_01] We're not alone, either. Families lost $12.5 billion to fraud last year. But here's a tool to help you fight back. Greenlight Family Shield. Keep your family from becoming a statistic. We use Greenlight, and you should, too.

[00:15:35] [SPEAKER_02] Set the Greenlight app up. It takes only minutes, and it will start protecting your whole family from frauds and scams. Things that happen to one family member affect the whole family. So protect your kids, your grandparents, your elderly parents, everyone in your family.

[00:15:50] [SPEAKER_01] Greenlight Family Shield gives you up to a million dollars of identity theft coverage. They also protect you throughout the day through financial account monitoring, credit locking, and real-time alerts when fraud is detected.

[00:16:03] [SPEAKER_02] Take the fight to the scammers. Don't let them steal your time and money. 6.5 million family members already trust Greenlight to protect them. We love checking our Greenlight app. Checking it lets us know that we're safe.

[00:16:14] [SPEAKER_01] Scammers are not waiting. Neither should you. Go to greenlight.com slash msheet right now to get started. That's greenlight.com slash msheet. Greenlight.com slash msheet.

[00:16:27] [SPEAKER_02] We love looking good and saving money. So we love our wonderful sponsor, Quince. The clothes they make are comfortable, affordable, and they don't go out of style. They're those wardrobe staples you'll reach for again and again. We certainly do.

[00:16:40] [SPEAKER_01] I recently got a Pearl Snap denim western shirt and denim blue that I wear all the time now. For everyday and for fancier events and get-togethers, it's breathable and comfortable, which is a huge deal for me. And I know as the weather cools, I'll be returning to my Quince sweaters, namely my Australian merino wool cable crewneck sweater and my Mongolian cashmere crewneck sweater. Those are so soft and so perfect for the fall. Their Mongolian cashmere sweaters start at just $60. Check them out.

[00:17:10] [SPEAKER_02] Seriously, get them and we can all match. I love my 100% European linen fit and flare midi dress in chilly red and navy blue. I got two of them because I love them so much. The fit is so good. I think they're so cute and I've gotten a lot of compliments wearing them, so love that. And as Kevin said, I can't wait until it's a bit colder out so I can break out my Mongolian cashmere sweaters. That's the great thing about Quince, though. You want to wear these pieces again and again.

[00:17:34] [SPEAKER_02] These are classic pieces and you're going to want to get even more because these are 50 to 80% less than similar brands because they cut out the middlemen. Refresh your wardrobe without breaking the budget.

[00:17:45] [SPEAKER_01] Find your next fall favorites at Quince. Download the Quince app for app-exclusive offers or go to Quince.com. Get free shipping on your order and 365-day returns. Now available in Canada and the UK, too. And when Quince asks where you heard about them, let them know it was the murder sheet. It is the best way to support the show. We'd like to give a big thank you to Vented, the sponsor of this episode.

[00:18:08] [SPEAKER_02] For those of you who haven't seen backgrounds of our lives, the clutter has gotten out of hand at our house. So I've decided to make an effort to do some serious cleaning. One of the places I'm starting is in our bedroom closet. I can't believe all the clothes I had in there that I'd probably frankly never wear again. They were taking up a lot of space. But I didn't want to just be wasteful and throw them away. That didn't seem right. And they have a lot of life in them.

[00:18:31] [SPEAKER_01] That's when we found out about Vented, a great way to turn the clothes in our closet into money.

[00:18:37] [SPEAKER_02] And also clear up closet space for new clothes.

[00:18:40] [SPEAKER_01] Vented is a second-hand market app that makes it easy for everyday sellers like us to sell our pre-loved fashion items. I love that this app is free to download and there are no seller fees. That means we get to keep everything we earn.

[00:18:57] [SPEAKER_02] Vented makes it so easy to list items. They even help you after an item sells by creating prepaid shipping labels. It couldn't be simpler. And that just makes me want to list more and more items. It makes me feel so much better to have a less cluttered closet.

[00:19:12] [SPEAKER_01] And these days it also helps to be able to earn some extra money, especially when Vented makes it so easy. That's Vented. V-I-N-T-E-D. See what's hiding in your closet. You might be surprised how much you can earn with Vented. Download the Vented app for free to start listing with no seller fees.

[00:19:34] [SPEAKER_02] V-It's a very good word for it. I'm curious for you, because we're like two jokers in our house. I'm a joker in my house and there's only one of me, so I feel you. This is a murder shoot. We don't have it. Is this mostly you going around and reaching out to these people? Oh, yeah. Is Pushkin helping out?

[00:19:52] [SPEAKER_03] No, Pushkin's been incredible in terms of production and everything. And they've helped in terms of my producer, LJ, who's amazing, who you guys met, will call and say would someone be willing to talk, etc. But that's been on the later end. And the lower end, mostly it's just me.

[00:20:11] [SPEAKER_03] And I'm kind of amazed by people who do joint reporting because I don't know how I would even begin to bring someone into the mess that is my brain around this case. Like, it's, you know, but look, like people have been reporting on this case for a really long time in various fashions, right? Not just journalists, not just like a Bill Proctor type.

[00:20:34] [SPEAKER_03] But you think about her or you think about Harold Kopis or you think about people who like, even if it was 20 years ago, even though a lot of that stuff, at least in Harold's case, is missing. Like, there's some kind of groundwork laid that I can build off of. So that part is helpful. But no, all the reporting is just me, a joker in my house. No. No, no. That's what I feel.

[00:20:59] [SPEAKER_03] I feel like Joker in my house should be a memoir name of one of us, you know, because it does feel, you do sort of feel there is a weird, because I also don't live in Michigan. So a lot of what I'm doing. Josh has been incredibly helpful, Josh Sharp, and he had done some reporting before me. So that, and he lives in Michigan, so he has some of that context. But in general, it's been me.

[00:21:19] [SPEAKER_02] So one thing that you've done that has been great in our opinion, because unfortunately we were not able to do this, probably will never be able to do this. But you've, I think, been able to do it extensively. And that is actually interviewed Temma Jinkensu. I guess, can you talk to us about that, what that process has been like, the challenges that may be come with interviewing someone who is actively incarcerated? And then, you know, just what was it like to talk to him?

[00:21:45] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah, it's interesting because it has taught me a lot about the Michigan prison system and how it's different than others. And sometimes those differences are minor. Like, the ability to kind of go visit someone in prison in Michigan is like a lot more difficult. They have a much more limited list of people that they're allowed to call and they can switch out a couple of names every quarter.

[00:22:04] [SPEAKER_03] But for example, if you have only nine numbers you're allowed to call, like, it's, you know, every time he's calling, every time I'm not available, like, someone else could be available that isn't me. And so, I understand that for, I can imagine that being in prison in Michigan, you feel so limited, especially if you're trying to advocate for your case. I think, you know, there's always the reminder that, like, you can be up and moved on any given second, which has happened to him.

[00:22:31] [SPEAKER_03] And I find the bureaucracy in Michigan to be, like, hair-pulling worthy. I've been talking to someone else in a prison in Washington State and I've just been kind of amazed at how much easier that is in some ways. Like, he has a tablet he can call me from, like, officially and he can call me during a wider variety of hours. May ask 30 minutes on the phone, not 15. You know, it's not, like, night and day, but it just makes things, like, a little bit easier.

[00:22:59] [SPEAKER_03] Talking to Timogen has been, for me as a journalist, one of the most fascinating experiences, I think, given who he is. His history, his complications, his blind spots, and also his dogged commitment to his innocence, which he has had since minute one.

[00:23:21] [SPEAKER_03] And I think what has been, what I find really, and I think I said this on the podcast, there is something, a lot of Timogen is very unfamiliar to me. Like, my instincts kind of go against his instincts of just, like, who I am. Like, I'm not really a fighter. I'm not, I don't really like conflict. I think I would have given up, let me put it that way. Like, I think I would have given up at this point if I were him, which obviously I'm not.

[00:23:46] [SPEAKER_03] But there is something really fascinating to me about his, and I don't think it's constant, but there is this kind of belief in the system even as he doesn't believe in it, right? There is this kind of, like, one day, like, this will all be figured out. I, you know, one day it'll come out the way, one day I'll be vindicated.

[00:24:13] [SPEAKER_03] And it's not like he says it that way, but that's the impression I get because he does keep trying to push for, well, you know, what if we can prove this and what if that and, you know. Also, our politics are pretty different, and that is interesting because I think I'm more probably progressive on criminal justice reform than he is.

[00:24:31] [SPEAKER_03] And I think he has sort of been like, he's definitely not like, no more police or no, and he has a lot of, he'll often say, like, well, this police officer was really nice to me or this police officer treated me well when this happened or X, Y, and Z. He has, again, I think it's something about being kind of an, I wouldn't say he's an institutionalist. I'm trying to figure out the right word. I am, he's, maybe the word is he's a boomer, which he is.

[00:24:59] [SPEAKER_03] Like, there is, not in a negative way, like, there is a generation of people who kind of grew up in the aftermath of a government that was willing to support and work for them. They grew up in the aftermath of the civil rights movement, and they grew up in the aftermath of the welfare development and school integration and alleviating poverty and, like, impeaching Nixon.

[00:25:26] [SPEAKER_03] Like, this belief that government is always kind of trying to find the moral answer that I think he has a little bit in a way that I don't. Some of it, some of our differences, I think, are generational. And the last thing I'll just say about talking to him, you know, one of the things that I think you asked me what tied me to this case earlier, and it took, I didn't know, I didn't actually realize this overlap until I was a few, like, I'd probably been,

[00:25:54] [SPEAKER_03] I'd probably invested 15 or 20 hours of research on the case at this point, so I at least was interested. But, you know, I am born May 15th, 1987. That's the day the jury goes to deliberate in his case. And that overlap of, like, my life starts, his life as you know it kind of ends.

[00:26:17] [SPEAKER_03] It's almost in a different world, like, would be a buddy comedy of, like, you know, because I've seen a lot of stuff he hasn't seen. And I have lived a very different life than he lived. And yet, like, here we are trying to figure, or I'm trying to figure him out. I wouldn't say he's necessarily trying to figure me out, although probably he is some. But I'm a little bit more of an open book, I think, in some ways.

[00:26:44] [SPEAKER_03] Or I think I'm a little bit more simple than Tim McGinnis, if that makes sense, you know?

[00:26:50] [SPEAKER_01] You mentioned that you were on his, like, approved list of people to phone. I'm just curious, how often were you in contact with him over the time you were working on this?

[00:27:02] [SPEAKER_03] It sort of depended. I would go weeks without talking to him and weeks without calling, just because, like, other projects were happening or whatever. I mean, it's been—I've probably been on his approved contact list for a few years now, so my investment in this case has been up and down, certainly for the past, like, year, I would say, year and a half, maybe. It's been more. Year and a quarter.

[00:27:30] [SPEAKER_03] But some weeks, even now, like, I talk to him maybe once, maybe not at all. Some weeks I talk to him ten times. It totally depends, and it sort of is mostly dependent, obviously, on me. Like, he can only call it certain times. Sometimes I'm working, talking to someone else, doing something else, can't talk, or I'm with my kids or whatever it is, and I obviously can't call back. So there's that.

[00:27:55] [SPEAKER_03] And then sometimes when I'm, like, really trying to script write and need to ask questions and need to know his story versus someone else's story or whatever, I have to spend—like, I'm waiting for him to call because I'm, like, I have questions, right? Most of our calls are not—like, we're not just talking—it's not just, like, how's today, you know? It's substantive about the case and sometimes about prison, like, what's happening there and what he's seeing.

[00:28:20] [SPEAKER_03] And sometimes about, like, whatever, politics, Chuck Norris, like, Dreidman's. But mostly—and I think this is a real thing about Timijin and part of the thing that I find disturbing, just imagining being in the position that I think he's in, is, like, how much space this case takes up in his head.

[00:28:43] [SPEAKER_03] Like, it's his innocence in this case, of course, of what he—the innocence that he asserts and has always asserted and that I believe in is the thing in— it's not a side thing in his head. It's a main thought process. And to kind of repeat all of this over and over again in your brain and just be kind of focused on it, not in a, like—

[00:29:11] [SPEAKER_03] it's not—it's a, like, maybe if I think about this a little more, it'll get figured out. It's a, like, appeal to logic. I don't think this is about logic for, like, a lot of the, you know, a lot of the systemic processes that he is imagining. And so that part, you know, just, like, what if you're thinking about being 20—this, like, three-day period when you're 23 just over and over and over again?

[00:29:39] [SPEAKER_03] It's like, I don't even want to remember being 23 at all, much less, you know. So there's—and I think time stands still when you're in prison, too, a little bit. Like, nothing—everything changes and nothing changes, you know.

[00:29:52] [SPEAKER_01] I get the impression from people I've spoken with that Temujin Kinzu, to some extent, contains multitudes. Because you hear from people who say, oh, this is a very charming, learned, wonderful man who can help us all become better people. And then you talk to other people and they say, well, he sexually abused me. Mm-hmm. And you tell other people and they say he was very nice to me until he felt I disappointed him in some way and then he could be abusive.

[00:30:21] [SPEAKER_01] In your conversations with him, how has he come across?

[00:30:27] [SPEAKER_03] In my conversation with him, he's been nothing but kind to me. I think I've sensed frustration from him, for sure. Not necessarily with me, but, like, with the system. And there have been things he said that I—and I think I try to convey this in the thing—like, don't like, don't approve of, don't endorse, and think are not good and bad. When I say that he's been perfectly nice to me, it doesn't mean I think he's an angel. It just means I don't think he's the devil.

[00:30:56] [SPEAKER_03] And by that, that, like, you know, it's not an endorsement or a excuse for harm he's caused because it can't be excused and I would not excuse it. I have no interest in excusing it, right? He's not my friend. He's a subject of a project. And my interest is trying to convey him in his fullness. But I don't always find him particularly introspective about some stuff.

[00:31:21] [SPEAKER_03] I think we talked last time, like, I have not found him to be introspective necessarily about fatherhood or, like, the ways that his incarceration has, like, affected his kids. That being said, or about his kids necessarily. But I've found him to be very introspective about other stuff, right? About, at least to some extent, his faults, his relationships, and harm he's caused. I don't know if I told you guys this story, but I did ask him at some point. I said, I think you and Robert Cleland have a lot in common.

[00:31:52] [SPEAKER_02] Robert Cleland won't thank you for that, I imagine.

[00:31:55] [SPEAKER_03] I'm sure neither of them would be thrilled to hear that. You know, these are people who see the other one as everything that's wrong with the world, right? I have not been able to talk to Robert Cleland, but my impression is that they are black and white people. They see people in pretty black and white terms. That's the nature of, and can be the nature of prosecution, right, in some ways. Like, is this person deserving or not? Are they good or evil?

[00:32:22] [SPEAKER_03] You're trying to kind of discern someone's core self. And Timogen's sort of like that. Like, people are good or bad, and people are right or wrong, and there's not a lot of gray area. And when I said that to him, I expected him to get pretty upset. And he actually, like, I thought his reaction, he was surprised to hear that. And he also was like, yeah, I'm pretty opinionated. I just don't have a lot of power in here.

[00:32:48] [SPEAKER_03] His point was like, Robert Cleland, he believes, wielded that inappropriately and wrongly. But I think of them as, I think they're more like each other than they are like me. Because I am always trying to leave a little room for what is the other possibility of this person. They're probably not an angel. They're probably not the devil. So what are they?

[00:33:12] [SPEAKER_01] Anya has a question, but before she gets to it, I want to up in. You've been very modest, but you have a successful career. You're a respected media professional. You're at the very least, over the last week.

[00:33:27] [SPEAKER_03] Probably says more about media than it does about me, but continue.

[00:33:30] [SPEAKER_02] No self-deprecation allowed.

[00:33:33] [SPEAKER_01] He knew you were at the very least contemplating doing a major project about him. Is there a possibility he just made an effort to be on his best behavior around you?

[00:33:44] [SPEAKER_03] I think not just him, but everybody, right? I think if you're a journalist and you think that you are getting to see someone in their pure form, you are wrong. That is the job. I'm not seeing every side of him. I'm not seeing the sides that Paula saw or that other people saw. That is not a him thing. That's a, I mean, it might be a him thing in this case, but it's an everybody thing.

[00:34:09] [SPEAKER_03] People are, you know, either their best self or their worst self when they talk to me. And that is the nature of the job. It's my job to be aware of that and to not take the way he talks to me as the way he talks to everybody. Because, of course not, you'd be an idiot to talk to me. Like, you'd be very dumb to be him and be mean to me or, you know, like, I have a lot. I mean, I can just walk away, right? Over all this, I could have just walked away.

[00:34:35] [SPEAKER_03] Okay. And from the beginning, you know, I said, listen, if, like, the things that I would accept as off the record, he has never once asked to put anything off the record. But the things that I would have accepted as off the record are, like, childhood abuse or, you know, stuff that, like, really had no impact on the story. But I was like, if it has an impact on the story, it's fair game and it could go in. So, absolutely, I think. But I don't think that's necessarily in the column of he's scheming.

[00:35:04] [SPEAKER_03] I would have done in the column of, like, yeah, if you're talking to a media, if you're talking to someone about your case and you're saying you're innocent and you are talking to a media professional, like, you should, like, be on your best behavior. Like, I would, you know. So, when I describe how he's been to me, I don't mean at all to say that it's necessarily representative of how he's been to everybody. But I also imagine that, like, time does wonders on people in a weird way. You get old and he's getting old, you know.

[00:35:32] [SPEAKER_03] And so, I think in some ways some of his instincts, shockingly, maybe it's shocking for you guys to hear this, but I think some of them have abated a little as my read. But, you know, I don't even get to see him. I've seen him three times, maybe. Like, you know, I don't get to, what the picture I get. And that's another hard part of doing prison work. Like, I get a very small picture, you know.

[00:35:58] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. No, that makes sense. And one thing you said that I was curious about, you mentioned kind of, and this is one thing I really appreciated about the backfire effect. Because there have been a lot of projects where there has been access to him as a subject. And I don't, you have these kind of platitudes in those past projects where it's like he acknowledges harm done. But it's like, what does that mean? If I say, hey guys, I used to be kind of a jerk. You know, that's a lot different than I raped some people.

[00:36:27] [SPEAKER_02] Like, there's a huge difference from being a ladies' man and raping people and things in between potentially, right? And I felt like the backfire effect was one of the first I saw where there was that access. But there was an attempt to say, okay, what do we feel bad for? Where is that introspection coming from? Getting him on the record in some capacity. And I feel like there was a lot of effort there. And I was wondering if you can maybe speak to that. And you mentioned some of the introspection.

[00:36:52] [SPEAKER_02] Maybe what would be, I mean, without putting words in his mouth, but just from your experience as a journalist. Is there acknowledgement of harm done to specific people? Is it a bit vaguer than that? Like, where is he, where is that introspection coming from? And is it something as much as like, I regret harming Crystal, for example? Or is it more of like, maybe I didn't treat people? I don't know. It's a rambling question, but hopefully it makes sense.

[00:37:17] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah, it does make sense. I mean, yes, there's introspection about specific people. I wouldn't say that, like, there's a lot of, there's a lot of what other people claim and what you all have said on the show that he would deny. So there's, there's that too. I think I've, I, you know, have more than once seen him get choked up talking about, I'll say G for the nature of the show, talking about G.

[00:37:43] [SPEAKER_03] I'm not, I, I'm not, I obviously can't read his mind. So I don't know why that one in particular causes like an emotional reaction. I don't know if it's the severity of the harm or I can, I couldn't tell you, but. That doesn't surprise me knowing what I know about the relationship. Yeah, I think he's, I think that, and I think, you know, abusing women and like he, he has said how much he regrets what he did.

[00:38:13] [SPEAKER_03] I will say, and, you know, we've talked about this before, like the two of us are starting from different, we're coming from different starting points, which shape how much things make sense to me versus you all. For me, someone who believes that he is innocent, I, I would not say that I feel like he's been particularly reflective of any harm he caused Crystal.

[00:38:41] [SPEAKER_03] And I would say, when I say that I understand that, it doesn't mean I endorse it, but I do understand it. In his head, if you take his innocence, like if you imagine his innocence, like he is innocent, he feels like the harm that has been inflicted on him has so outweighed the harm he did to her. And I think he feels like the harm she's inflicted on him outweighs the harm he did to her. I think he would dispute some of her story, et cetera.

[00:39:09] [SPEAKER_03] I would say, in addition to that, like, I think there's some, like 40 years is a really long time. And I think it probably gets exhausting feeling like you're constantly apologizing for who you were 40 years ago. That doesn't mean you shouldn't apologize, to be clear. That doesn't mean I don't think those women deserve apologies or that, like, what happened 40 years ago doesn't matter.

[00:39:37] [SPEAKER_03] To me, what it means is, like, I understand this reticence to identify with that version of yourself in a way that, like, if even now, I mean, I'm 20X years younger than him. When people talk to me about being 23, if someone were like, if I, I'm like, I was different then, right? But when you're in prison, you're kind of frozen.

[00:40:02] [SPEAKER_03] You can claim you're better all you want, but you don't have an opportunity to be women anymore, really. Okay, so if you don't have an opportunity to do it, how can you prove you can't do it? There's a lot of just, like, guardrails that could be preventing bad behavior, yes, of course. But also, I think, make it hard to prove yourself. Yeah, that's a long way of, that's a long answer. I think he is reflective, and I think I've heard him be genuinely apologetic for harm he's caused.

[00:40:30] [SPEAKER_03] I think he is also fiercely denies some of what's been claimed about him. And I think the last thing I would just say is, like, it's crazy to be in a men's prison for 40 years because all of the different understandings of how we think about women and relationships with women have shifted. So there's a lot of, like, casual, I mean, it's boomers. Like, I don't know about you guys as parents, but sometimes my parents say stuff where I'm like, that's not how we talk about women anymore.

[00:40:57] [SPEAKER_03] Or, like, you know, there is an antiquated, in some ways, understanding, I think, of some gender dynamics that are probably age-appropriate in some ways. But they're exacerbated by being in prison. It's not like all women are liars. It's not, like, incel stuff. But it's like, I think some of the nuances of human relationships, for example, like, why would she say yes to a date if she didn't really want to go on a date with me?

[00:41:23] [SPEAKER_03] Or, like, you know, that sort of stuff where it's like, well, like, fear does a lot in the ways women make decisions. There is a whole new world of understanding how human relationships function that I don't always know if he has. He's not that woke.

[00:41:48] [SPEAKER_00] That shocks me.

[00:41:49] [SPEAKER_03] Like, that's the best way. I don't want to overstate this because I'm not saying he's, I'm on the phone with him and he's like, fuck women, whatever. But he's of his time.

[00:42:00] [SPEAKER_02] Are there specific things worth it?

[00:42:02] [SPEAKER_03] I'm trying to think of one. I really like, I'm trying to think of one. And I actually am going to look at my notes later and see if I can, like, think of one. Because some of them I think are kind of funny. Like, I can't, not funny, you know, just like.

[00:42:12] [SPEAKER_02] I mean, some of the things he's on the record saying to Paula definitely seem to fall within that category of women maybe antiquated.

[00:42:21] [SPEAKER_01] But I'm curious. That person gets tired of apologizing over and over again for 40 years. And maybe I'm forgetting something. Has there been an example where Temujin Kanzu has offered a direct, specific apology to Crystal or G or D? Because I'm not sure he's really done a lot of apologizing over the last 40 years.

[00:42:48] [SPEAKER_03] Or Lena.

[00:42:49] [SPEAKER_01] Or Lena.

[00:42:49] [SPEAKER_03] I think he would probably say that there have been examples of that. I think I would count Michelle in that category, too. Yes. I don't know that. I don't know about every single one of them. Right? Like, I couldn't. I can't confirm that. And that's actually an interesting question, one that I should ask. I was going to give you guys an example that I don't even know. I don't know how much of this I should share. But I'm going to do it.

[00:43:19] [SPEAKER_03] Which is that maybe 20 years ago, I think he did write a letter to Crystal. And I've only seen the letter. Where someone I reached out to about documents and had to, like, track down for, like, I can't even tell you, like, how I ended up in a random basement. And my husband was like, you're going to die for this case. And are you prepared to leave me alone with our two feral children?

[00:43:47] [SPEAKER_03] Because you were, like, in someone's basement looking at documents. And I was like, you know, now that you say it, probably not my best call. But anyway, this person showed me, the wife of this person showed me a document that was a letter that she happened to have that she didn't want me to copy. Which was a letter he had written to Crystal.

[00:44:09] [SPEAKER_03] Where I think what he, what I recall him sort of saying was, like, I understand that this was also really difficult for you. And it was sort of like, I get why you had to, or I don't know if I want to say get. And I don't want to totally misconstrue, you know, misrepresent. But the implication, how I read it was, in some ways, they harmed us both.

[00:44:34] [SPEAKER_03] Because they had you, you know, they kind of sold you on this story about me in terms of the murder. And I didn't help. And, like, I had done some hurtful things to you. I could be totally misrepresenting. And what I'm actually going to do is reach out to her and see if, like, she would maybe send me a copy now that the show is over. So I can be accurate.

[00:44:58] [SPEAKER_03] But what he was told, and I also saw this communication from his lawyer, was, like, you can't send this. Like, this could be evidence later, right? Or it could work against you. And if you are saying to Crystal, like, I understand and I'm sorry. Like, that is, first of all, like, the court, the DOC could be upset because you're not necessarily supposed to reach out to people who are, like, considered victims in a case.

[00:45:24] [SPEAKER_03] And Crystal, but also, like, you have to go in front of a parole board and you have to do this and, like, people, this could work against you. Obviously, when I read it, I was like, I don't really see why this would work against him. He's being very clear that he's innocent. He's being reflective about other stuff.

[00:45:39] [SPEAKER_03] But I just say that to say that, like, separate from his personality, there's also, if you are proclaiming your innocence, it is hard to explain, like, apologizing to people that you are saying are part of the reason you're inside. And I don't think we exist in a system that always incentivizes those level of apologies. Now, if they did, would he do it? I don't know. I'm actually, that's an interesting question and I want to ask it to him.

[00:46:09] [SPEAKER_03] But that is something that I would note.

[00:46:13] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. I mean, it's really, and I'm so grateful to you for, like, doing, like, the level of deep dive you've done on this case to be able to kind of dig into that. When I look at how Crystal's been treating, like, outside of the vacuum of, like, should you show kindness to someone if they were victimized to, even if you're saying that they were part of the reason you ended up in prison? Mm-hmm. I see a lot of, like, intentional cruelty inflicted on that woman, like, publishing her cell phone number and saying, call her and get her to admit she's lying. Totally.

[00:46:43] [SPEAKER_02] Like, I see it less as, like, an intellectual exercise of, like, can he forgive her if we assume that he's innocent? And more, like, there's been so much just overt antagonism that it goes beyond, like, anything you would hope someone, you'd hope. What I like to think I would think if I were in that situation is, yeah, I'm mad that you helped convict me, but, like, I did beat and rape you and probably kind of gave you cause to think I might have harmed Scott.

[00:47:13] [SPEAKER_00] Mm-hmm.

[00:47:13] [SPEAKER_02] I'm not that person. I didn't do it. Maybe something else was going on. I didn't really give you my best impression, and maybe that's at least somewhat on me.

[00:47:22] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah. I think on some level, I mean, I think he would, again, dispute some of the allegations, like, some of it, including rape. I think on some level, like, that is sort of what the letter was trying to get at. Okay. But that letter was a long time ago. It was 20-something years ago. Wow. And I totally agree that, like, publishing someone's personal information is, like, wrong. Listen, take the moral element out of it. Yes. It's obviously morally wrong. It's also horribly ineffective. It doesn't work. It's not going to work.

[00:47:53] [SPEAKER_03] You are not going to call Crystal and have her say one day, oh, the 17th person called me. There's a fear that people have that I think is not uncommon in cases like this, and that makes that fear worse. It doesn't make it better. So I, like, there is enough harm and hurt to go around, I think, even if you do believe he's innocent, right?

[00:48:13] [SPEAKER_03] Because the people I hold responsible in this case are not the Macklems, not Crystal, not—I understand why—I understand Timogen's perspective on their culpability. But my—people I hold responsible are assistant actors who this is their job, and their job requires a different level of, you know, a different level of care.

[00:48:36] [SPEAKER_03] Like, Crystal lost her fiancé, like, pregnant at 20, like, raised a child alone, you know? I mean, I know she, like, got married again later, but, like, has had to think about this case and has had to worry about this situation forever, and has had her reputation dragged through the mud at various points, and has had to, like, has her cell phone number.

[00:48:59] [SPEAKER_03] Like, it's crazy. So I don't—I'm not here to—I'm not saying that—I think what I'm saying is that, like, if you are serving time for a crime you didn't commit, and again, just, you know, from my perspective, it's—I do get this—I do get why, like, hearing about other people's suffering is like, yeah, same.

[00:49:27] [SPEAKER_03] Like, I'm here. I'm still here. So it's not to say that, like—I don't say that to say that that's my perspective, and I don't say it to say that it's objectively logical, but I do think it's—I get it. And I guess what I'm saying is, like, I would love to think that I wouldn't be that person, but I don't know. 40 years in prison fucks you up. Just fucks you up. You know?

[00:49:50] [SPEAKER_01] I'm curious. You clearly don't believe he's guilty of the murder of Scott Macklin. Do you believe Temujin Kensu is guilty of having raped and abused women?

[00:50:00] [SPEAKER_03] I do think he is—I definitely believe he's guilty of abusing women. I tend to believe he's guilty of raping women. And I guess what I would say is this. I have not actually even tried to think through, like, my own belief in that—in rape, because I don't—I haven't had access to, like, the people making most of those claims.

[00:50:25] [SPEAKER_03] And my perspective on this is that, like, they say that, and that is—that's—that I believe that, right? When I say I believe them, I don't mean that in a way that is, like, any more informed than you all's, and probably less informed than you all's, because you guys have talked to some of them, and I have not.

[00:50:44] [SPEAKER_03] I don't doubt, like, the harm that he put women through across—across the spectrum from—I don't think he killed Scott Macklin. Let me, let me, like, be more clear about this. I definitely believe the women who say that they were harmed by Timogen. I definitely believe them when they say that they were abused. I, like, tend to believe the claims of rape as well.

[00:51:10] [SPEAKER_03] And when I say tend to, my hesitation is not that I don't believe it, but that, like, it has not been the focus of my investigation, right? Because the focus of my investigation has been this murder. What I've tried to be really clear about is that, like, I'm not here to—I don't—I don't have any interest or authority or knowledge to discount any other claim about his behavior.

[00:51:34] [SPEAKER_03] And I, again, have said and would continue to say that if, you know, the state has the evidence to prove those charges, they should bring those charges. I don't think that that would be outrageous to charge him with something that we could prove that he did or demonstrate that he did. It just has not been the focus of my investigation, because the focus of my investigation has been this murder. And this murder is the reason he's in. And I am interested in that part of it.

[00:52:02] [SPEAKER_03] So when I think about innocence, I'm talking about in the murder of Scott Macklem. It's not to say that because he says he didn't do this, it means he didn't do anything, you know?

[00:52:15] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. And we appreciate that clarity, I think. You know, and for us on our side, we don't believe he did the crime of killing Scott because he also—we also believe the women. Right. Because those are quite different crimes, right? I think there is an intrinsic linking of the allegations that Crystal has made and what she's testified to under oath on the stand and what happened with Scott.

[00:52:42] [SPEAKER_02] But it's—we're not—and also the murder of Scott in and of itself was not, you know, it wasn't a rape of a woman. It wasn't like a rape murder. Like, we're not even—you know, it's not like, okay, well, we can at least say, right, if you're seeing, oh, this looks like a Ted Bundy case because a woman went missing and she had dark hair or whatever, then that's one thing. This isn't—this isn't—so. Yeah.

[00:53:09] [SPEAKER_01] Let's move on, if that's okay. Sure. Temujin's life hasn't really changed that much since he's been in prison in some ways. But in another way, his life has changed quite a bit in the years you've been reporting this case because— Mm-hmm. Correct me if I'm wrong, but when you started reporting the case, he was involved with Paula, who was his—one of his fiercest online advocates.

[00:53:34] [SPEAKER_00] Mm-hmm.

[00:53:34] [SPEAKER_01] And now he's not involved with Paula, except that that marriage is in the process of—

[00:53:41] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah, dissolving.

[00:53:43] [SPEAKER_01] Mm-hmm. And now he's involved with a new woman.

[00:53:46] [SPEAKER_03] Mm-hmm.

[00:53:46] [SPEAKER_01] And I'm just curious, what has it been like as a reporter to kind of have a ringside seat on some of these changes in his life?

[00:53:55] [SPEAKER_03] Well, I will tell you that I was shocked when I heard that him and Paula were splitting up. I was shocked. And in hindsight, maybe, like, too shocked. First of all, the divorce rate for men in prison is 80%. I think it's 97% if you're in prison for longer than five years or something like that. Maybe it's seven years. I don't know. But, like, much less time than he's been in, right? Their divorce made me realize that, oh, actually, him staying with Amako for so long was crazy, like, shocking. Like, that's, like, unheard of, right?

[00:54:25] [SPEAKER_03] And that she stood by him for as long as she did. Despite all the emotional abuse, too. Yeah, despite, like, what wasn't, yeah, despite the problems in their relationship, his personal, like, problems from him, like, emotional, you know, harm that he caused. And also despite the, like, logistical problems. It's like you have two kids and, you know, and, like, you live, you're a civilian and here's someone who's incarcerated. Like, it's not easy.

[00:54:53] [SPEAKER_03] So when you think about it statistically, like, I think their divorce makes more sense because they fall into the broad category of, like, this gets to be too much. And I like Deb just on a personal level. I know her less. I have talked to her a lot less than I had talked to Paula. But she's very nice. You know, just the person I am, it's hard for me to imagine this being my life of, like, being in a relationship, such a close relationship with someone who is incarcerated and all the issues that come with that.

[00:55:22] [SPEAKER_03] But it has been really interesting to kind of see this element of it. And I think that I tried to kind of convey that, like, in the sixth episode where, you know, when it ends, they're over because it was so surprising to me. And yet I do think it is a reflection of some of the harder parts about Timogen, right? It's hard. He's tough.

[00:55:45] [SPEAKER_02] The sister wife's thing coming out of nowhere was a lot.

[00:55:48] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah. Like, I don't, you know, I have not. And that's, like, a thing that I had not. But they, he has, like, a different take on that. I don't, to me, asking that question, like, whatever. To me, these are things where I'm, like, would I bring it up if I were in prison and serving a life without parole sentence and this was someone that I, like, cared about who had been working really hard on my behalf? No, I wouldn't.

[00:56:13] [SPEAKER_03] But also, like, I do try to differentiate between what I think is gross, what I wouldn't want in my own relationship, and what is, A, illegal, and, B, like, people opt into lifestyles all the time that I'm like, what the fuck? You better not. Like, why would you do this? Yeah. No sister wives for you, Kevin. Or I will be the new co-host of The Murder Sheet, and every episode will be about you.

[00:56:43] [SPEAKER_03] You know, people opt into lifestyles all the time that I don't like. This is something that I think about when I listen to The Murder Sheet. Like, I am wary of, like, this is not for me, and therefore, like, this is evidence of evil and or, like, to me, I'm like, how can a woman move from Australia to Michigan to be with you? You are serving life without parole. That's such a big thing to do. I can't imagine ever doing that.

[00:57:12] [SPEAKER_03] And also, Deb's an adult who has made a choice. Paula was an adult who had made choices, and when they didn't work for her anymore, she left. It's not to say, like, you can emotionally abuse them because they're adults. That's not what I mean. But what I mean is, like, at some point, I have to be like, this just isn't my thing. And if I were doing a story about, you know, misogyny in prisons or how prison relationships work, which, by the way, if any podcast company is listening and they want a podcast about prison marriages, I would love to do that story. I'm dying to do it.

[00:57:42] [SPEAKER_02] If you listen to that podcast, please do it.

[00:57:45] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah, I just think it's so interesting. But also, I just want to be clear, like, it's reflected. Like, I had clients who I was doing parole hearings for when I was in law school, and I do remember that all of them had online girlfriends and that the minute they got paroled, they all left their online girlfriends, right?

[00:58:02] [SPEAKER_03] Like, you know, similarly, when I talked to Tim Mijin about the fact that none of his children have a relationship with him, really, and how he thinks about that, given, like, his own upbringing, etc. Or, like, do you take responsibility for that? Do you see that as a failing? I think some of the reflection is limited by the fact that, like, that is true for so many people in prison. He's like, nobody, almost nobody here has a relationship with their kids.

[00:58:29] [SPEAKER_03] Like, lots of people here, like, are, you know, he is in an environment where some of this is normalized. I'm not saying he wouldn't be like this anyway, but what I'm saying is, like, it's so hard to extract the parts of this. Like, what is shaping what? And how are you being shaped? And what, how, how much of this is my business? And how much of this is distracting to me if I'm trying to actually determine did you or did you not kill Scott Macklem?

[00:58:57] [SPEAKER_03] So, yeah, the sister-wise stuff, the divorce case, like, all of that, while interesting to me, it's not really super in my wheelhouse of this story. And there's already so much of this story that I didn't even get to put in that, like, trying to figure it all out. But, like, would I date Timogen? Would I marry him? No. Would I be, would I, like, be okay with, like, my sister or my mom doing it? No.

[00:59:18] [SPEAKER_03] Like, he's, but that's, that's just not, like, everybody he's influenced by his surroundings, I guess is what I would say.

[00:59:28] [SPEAKER_02] And you're absolutely right about the misogyny of prison systems. I guess for us, the lens that we view him through at this point is that he is a raging misogynist and that he's also an abuser and a textbook abuser. And a lot of what this is, to me, looks like women who are adults and make their own choices.

[00:59:49] [SPEAKER_02] But we know adults make a lot of really harmful choices, whether it's addiction or getting involved with a abusive partner or any number of things, right? I see all of that as part of it, right? And to me, it's, like, more fuel on that fire.

[01:00:09] [SPEAKER_02] That doesn't mean he's guilty of murder, but when we've seen this kind of myth of him, the deification of Temes and Shikensu that has existed for, you know, I think a number of years where we're getting articles in the local newspaper. He's going to miss Christmas, you know, and then we're learning about, like, this is how he's talking to his wife, Denise Amoco, who he's touting as, like, his number one supporter.

[01:00:34] [SPEAKER_02] And he's leaving her in tears because he says she's not doing his fitness program and getting too fat. It's like, I think to a certain extent, people should know what they're getting into, too, because he does attract a lot of people who want to help.

[01:00:45] [SPEAKER_03] But I guess I have a question for you all. Yeah. Which is, you say, and I believe you, that, like, the reason you think he's guilty is actually not about who he is as a person. And when I hear us talk about Temes and Shikensu as a person, I'm like, ugh, like, horrible. And also, like, not necessarily unique in the sense that I'm like, you're not Ted Bundy. Like, you're not, like, you're, like, all the ways that you can treat women badly you have.

[01:01:14] [SPEAKER_03] And he would not be part of this project if this was the entire story. So I say that to say that, like, do you, what does it mean to spend so much time on stuff that is not about the murder?

[01:01:34] [SPEAKER_01] Right? Can we put a pin in that? Yes, please. Please. I wonder, we have a couple other questions. Yes, please, please, please, please, please. We're going to ask you what you think about our coverage. Okay, okay. And I wonder.

[01:01:47] [SPEAKER_02] I think that is a valid point. And I think it would be an interesting.

[01:01:49] [SPEAKER_01] Just a couple other quick questions.

[01:01:51] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. Yes, please.

[01:01:52] [SPEAKER_01] So I don't want to make this the Temujin Kinzu divorce episode. But there was one other thing about his divorce that I feel I would be remiss that I, if I didn't bring it up, and that's the fact that you were mentioned in it.

[01:02:07] [SPEAKER_03] Mm-hmm.

[01:02:08] [SPEAKER_01] Not in, like, a sordid way.

[01:02:09] [SPEAKER_03] I'm so famous. Yes.

[01:02:12] [SPEAKER_01] Mr. Kinzu wrote what I would describe as, this is my description, not yours. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. He wrote kind of a crazy book about founding his own religion. It's a hard book to get your hands on.

[01:02:25] [SPEAKER_00] Mm-hmm.

[01:02:25] [SPEAKER_01] And there is a text exchange between him and Paula where she's indicating, oh, maybe she can help you get a copy of the book. And he's like, no, don't let Josie read that book. Mm-hmm.

[01:02:38] [SPEAKER_00] Mm-hmm.

[01:02:38] [SPEAKER_01] So two-part question. Part one, how did that make you feel? And part two, did it raise any concerns for you? Maybe there was other things about him that he is hiding from me as he is trying to hide this book from me.

[01:02:54] [SPEAKER_03] Okay. Two answers. Well, three. One qualifier and then two answers. Yeah. Number one qualifier, I got the book. So I didn't get it from Paula, but I did get it and always was like, I'm going to get my hands on this book. Like, if it's the last thing I do, I want to get my hands on this book. And I managed to do that. The second thing is, it did not hurt my feelings. Again, like, I'm like, yeah, you probably don't want me to have hands on the, like, manifesto book slash religion thing that you wrote. I don't even know what you would call it.

[01:03:24] [SPEAKER_03] I get why you wouldn't want me to have my hands on that. That's probably smart. And also, once again, like, it doesn't actually have to do with the murder. So my feelings weren't hurt. Or, like, I don't even, like, was I insulted or, like, I'm like, yeah, that's probably a logical response. I think it's funny that it's like, don't let Josie get the book. Right? I think it, but I don't, I'm not surprised or offended by it. And to your last question, I'm sure there's lots of stuff that Tomajin is not sharing with me or telling me.

[01:03:53] [SPEAKER_03] And I want to be really clear, like, that's prudent and appropriate. Like, I'm not his friend. I'm not his spouse. I'm, like, working for the public. If someone were doing a project about me, there'd be lots of stuff I wouldn't share with them. And I don't think I have that much in it history. I'm like, one time I shoplifted in seventh grade, but then I went back and took it back because I forgot that I had it. It was actually accidental. Like, I don't actually feel like there's that much in my history that would even be of interest to someone.

[01:04:23] [SPEAKER_03] I mean, no one would want to do a, you know what I'm saying? Like, but I'm not going to tell them everything because I'm a reporter. I'm not his friend. And so I think the mistake that, I think that, like, a mistake that often happens in journalism is that people take someone being withholding as being, as having secrets that they're entitled to.

[01:04:53] [SPEAKER_03] And if I felt like he was being withholding about something to do with the murder, that'd be a very, very, very different situation. Right? But I don't, I'm not entitled to all of it. And, like, I rely on him for a lot of accuracy, of course. I'm not just relying on him. I'm trying to double check literally every single thing that I can. It is not just the Timogen story, at least to the extent that, and when it is his story, I try to be clear about that.

[01:05:21] [SPEAKER_03] But also, like, I could just leave at any point. He sends me that book and I could say, I don't want to do this story anymore. I mean, I couldn't really. I'm under contract. But to him, like, why risk that? Why risk me reading this, frankly, strange tome? Like, you know. It is a tome. It is strange. And thinking, you know what? I want out. This doesn't about the murder. So, like, I don't, I don't actually feel entitled to a referendum on his life.

[01:05:51] [SPEAKER_03] Right? I feel entitled to the truth about this case. And that's it. Really. I mean, not to say that if I asked him a straight up question, i.e., did you read, did you write this book? And he said, no, I didn't write this book. That would be a different kind of lie. Right? But if he's, like, he's never denied it. I'm sure he's played it down. And I'm sure he didn't want me to read it. I did anyway. But, like, I'm like, yeah, that's appropriate. We're not friends.

[01:06:18] [SPEAKER_03] We're, we have a different sort of relationship. Just a side note. Have you guys seen The Widower on Netflix? The Widower? No. Yeah, it's some, like, new Netflix documentary. I don't even know how new. I was on the other night when I was trying to organize. It was, like, 3 a.m. And by on, I mean I had to click it. But, like, it came up on my, it's not, like, on on Netflix. But I, there's David, Dan Slepian, who I think works at ABC or NBC. I can't remember where he works. But it's, it's about a guy who kills four of his six wives all in the same way and all

[01:06:48] [SPEAKER_03] for insurance money, essentially. But there's a moment where Dan Slepian, who's been interviewing him for, like, months or years, says, like, can I come with you to the prison? And he says, yeah, like, because we're friends. Or he says something like that. And he's like, I'm not your friend. I'm, and that line, I think, is very difficult when you're sharing something with someone all the time and they're asking about your life and whatever. But, like, our relationship is, he doesn't know about my life.

[01:07:16] [SPEAKER_03] Like, he's not part of my, like, I am, I am, you know, looking at this case, which requires looking at him. And I find a difference between, like, oh, that's not something I want her to have versus that never happened. Right?

[01:07:35] [SPEAKER_00] Right.

[01:07:37] [SPEAKER_03] I don't know if that makes sense. No, we understand.

[01:07:39] [SPEAKER_01] That makes sense. You asked us if we saw this thing on Netflix. I have to ask you, have you seen You Can See Everything?

[01:07:46] [SPEAKER_03] No, but I am dying to. I'm going to see it on Saturday. Is it crazy?

[01:07:49] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah, it's crazy. I think it, I think a lot of it really resonated with you.

[01:07:54] [SPEAKER_02] It resonated with me because, you know, you form, whether you're journalists or humans, perceptions, and you form a connection or personal, like, and you don't want it to be a friendship, absolutely, because that would be inappropriate. You want to have the wall. Right. Right. It's just about the, it's about truths and how you interact with people. It's amazing. Best picture, I hope.

[01:08:16] [SPEAKER_03] I cannot wait to see it. Everybody says it's incredible. You're going to love it. And the only people I've seen who say that they don't like it are, like, my least favorite people on the internet. Like, it's always, like, a weird, like, some weird AI tech bro who's like, this documentary was unfair. And I'm like, this is a sign I'm going to love this shit.

[01:08:33] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah.

[01:08:33] [SPEAKER_03] I am like, we should talk again after. I assume she has my number. We should talk again after. I would love to talk about it with you guys. I need to talk with you about it. Okay. Okay. I can't wait.

[01:08:42] [SPEAKER_01] There's a lot of things that I think will resonate with you as they resonated with us. Yes.

[01:08:46] [SPEAKER_02] Okay, great. You definitely are like, okay, have we been in this situation? Right.

[01:08:50] [SPEAKER_03] Right. Like, am I getting played? Yeah. It's a concept. It's even more than that.

[01:08:54] [SPEAKER_02] Like, it's just, it's beautiful.

[01:08:56] [SPEAKER_01] Let's not talk about it. I don't want to say that. Okay. So, in a second, I want to give you a chance to raise any questions or concerns. You have about our coverage. But before I do, I'm curious. You've talked to Temujin Kenzu a lot. Did he have any questions or concerns about our coverage?

[01:09:16] [SPEAKER_03] Oh, I think he has lots of concerns about your coverage. Yeah. I bet we could do many episodes on it. He didn't have any for this conversation. I don't even know if he, I don't even know if I told him I was, I know, I know, I told him that you guys were going to talk about for our show, but I don't know if I told him, I haven't talked to him in a few days at least or maybe longer. But I don't know if he even knows that we're having this conversation. It wasn't, I wouldn't keep it from him. I just, you know. But yeah, it would be easier.

[01:09:44] [SPEAKER_03] This goes back to what I was saying about him having a lot in common with Cleland, right? Like, in some ways it would be easier to take his approach and just be like, I don't think he, I think he thinks badly of you all, to be honest, because I think he, you know, he's says he's innocent. I believe him.

[01:10:08] [SPEAKER_03] But like from his perspective, he feels like, you know, you guys are helping keep him in prison for something he didn't do. And I was thinking earlier, like, it would be a lot easier if like you guys weren't likeable, right? Because it does, it does complicate the, the, my concerns about the coverage and it does complicate like where we differ because we agree about a lot. And like, I like really like you guys. And so, you know, I was like, I'm not even just saying that.

[01:10:37] [SPEAKER_03] I was like, really, it's like very enjoyable to talk to you guys. So this, I think is a good example of the difference between me and Timogen, because I don't think his instinct is to think like they feel X, how could I change their mind? Or like, maybe I could try to understand why they feel. I think he's like, if they are willing to believe this about me, like they're not people I want to be in contact with. Right.

[01:11:03] [SPEAKER_02] Thanks again to Josie for talking to us and for the thoughtful discussion. Tune into our next episode to get part two of this conversation.

[01:11:11] [SPEAKER_01] Thanks so much for listening to the Murder Sheet. If you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover, please email us at murdersheet at gmail.com. If you have actionable information about an unsolved crime, please report it to the appropriate authorities.

[01:11:29] [SPEAKER_02] If you're interested in joining our Patreon, that's available at www.patreon.com slash murdersheet. If you want to tip us a bit of money for records requests, you can do so at www.buymeacoffee.com slash murdersheet. We very much appreciate any support.

[01:11:55] [SPEAKER_01] Special thanks to Kevin Tyler Greenlee, who composed the music for the Murder Sheet, and who you can find on the web at kevintg.com.

[01:12:05] [SPEAKER_02] If you're looking to talk with other listeners about a case we've covered, you can join the Murder Sheet discussion group on Facebook. We mostly focus our time on research and reporting, so we're not on social media much. We do try to check our email account, but we ask for patience as we often receive a lot of messages. Thanks again for listening.