The Murder of Scott Macklem: A Conversation with Journalist Josie Duffy Rice on Temujin Kensu and The Backfire Effect: Part Two

[00:00:00] [SPEAKER_02] I'm Anya, and this is the second part of our discussion with Josie Duffy Rice about the backfire effect.

[00:00:06] [SPEAKER_00] Content warning this episode contains discussion of rape, abuse, violence, and murder.

[00:00:10] [SPEAKER_02] We're going to be picking up where we left off from our conversation with Josie Duffy Rice about this case. Let's just jump right in. My name is Anya Kane. I'm a journalist.

[00:00:20] [SPEAKER_00] And I'm Kevin Greenlee. I'm an attorney. And this is The Murder Sheet. We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews, and deep dives into murder cases. We are The Murder Sheet.

[00:00:33] [SPEAKER_02] And this is The Murder of Scott Macklem, A Conversation with Journalist Josie Duffy Rice on Temujin Kensu and The Backfire Effect, Part Two.

[00:01:29] [SPEAKER_02] Okay, so I want to jump in here. This isn't actually part of what we recorded with Josie. We just realized when we were editing this that she asked a really good question when we kind of briefly went off the record for a moment, just minorly.

[00:01:42] [SPEAKER_00] And it was my fault because after she asked it, I said, oh, that's a really good question. Why don't you ask it on the show in a few minutes? And we'll talk about it during the actual program that people can hear. But the problem was, once we got back on the record and were recording, we kind of drifted over to other things and it was forgotten.

[00:02:01] [SPEAKER_02] But let's put a pin in that and never answer your question, in other words.

[00:02:05] [SPEAKER_00] That wasn't a strategy on my part to avoid a difficult question and answer.

[00:02:10] [SPEAKER_02] It was a really good question.

[00:02:11] [SPEAKER_00] So let me paraphrase the question as I recall it, which was basically, Kevin and Anya, you always say that Mr. Kensu's character is not evidence of guilt in this case. But yet you sure talk a lot about his character. Why is that?

[00:02:31] [SPEAKER_02] I think that's a really fair question, first of all. I appreciate her for asking it. And I think we've seen less eloquent versions of that come up again and again. And I think the way she kind of targets it to make sense because it's like, OK, but if this isn't important for the murder, why even talk about it? I would start. I think there's a couple of reasons and people don't have to disagree. People don't have to agree or disagree with this. It's just our reasoning.

[00:03:00] [SPEAKER_02] One is I think it's important to remember the context in which Kevin and I started reporting on this case, which was really where we were the sole voice saying that we thought he was guilty. But what came before that was often media projects that would put out there.

[00:03:23] [SPEAKER_00] He was a great guy. Yeah. How could a guy like this? He's a saint. He's the light of the world. Have you heard? Remember that one? He loves puppies. He does so much good in prison. Just think of all the good he can do outside of prison. And so a lot of these people were putting out inaccurate information and they, in their own way, were making his character an issue. They were trying to make the argument that his alleged good character was, in fact, evidence of something.

[00:03:53] [SPEAKER_00] And that was a patently false argument for many reasons, primarily that, in fact, his character, in my judgment, is quite poor. So if other people on that side were making an issue of it, I thought it was warranted that we actually correct the record and provide the facts. Another thing is that they made Crystal's character a really relevant issue in all of this. They said Crystal is lying about Temujin, this great guy.

[00:04:20] [SPEAKER_00] And if you're trying to say she's lying about him being a bad guy, she's telling lies on the stand, then that also, in order to defend her credibility and her credibility is at the heart of this case, then you have to get into some of these answers, questions and answers.

[00:04:40] [SPEAKER_02] Well, yeah, because I think it's important to note that if Crystal is somebody who, you know, is coming in and making these claims about all this really egregious behavior and no one's backing that up, sometimes somebody can get abused in a vacuum and then, you know, maybe it's like she was treated different than others. But I think that is something that you can look at.

[00:05:02] [SPEAKER_02] And in this case, what we were able to find through our reporting and through really digging into the record and then through talking to people was that she was far from alone in the abuse she received. And she was also far from alone in sort of some of the bizarre aspects of this, like the obsessions with ninjas and various things that have been for years used by some people who've covered this case to essentially bludgeon her, you know, where she's saying all these ridiculous things.

[00:05:32] [SPEAKER_02] So the context that we were coming into is different from the context that exists right now. And that is largely because we put out a lot of this information. Do I see the criticism of it's not relevant to the murders? Yes, I do. I do. And it's something we have to weigh. We waited in the way we did for the reasons we discussed just now.

[00:05:58] [SPEAKER_02] And to me, I feel like we made the right call, but I also don't think we're above criticism with any of this. So I think people can feel the way they want to feel about that or they can say, well, that's not appropriate. Or now that it's more established, you should stop. To me, I feel there's a that's the kind of like immediate response. It's correcting what we feel were falsehoods. One. Two.

[00:06:28] [SPEAKER_02] Putting Crystal's testimony in a new light. To me, that's the most relevant thing for the actual case. I feel like that does connect to the murders in that it makes the star witness a lot more credible. Did it belong in the actual trial? No, of course not. We're not saying that. We're not saying that G's testimony belonged in the trial. We're not saying that D, her testimony belonged. We're just saying that like it, they back, they tend to back up Crystal. So those are two things.

[00:06:55] [SPEAKER_02] Another kind of two-parter that's a little bit more tangential to that, a little bit more removed from that, is simply I feel that when I heard what Denise went through on those tapes to a certain extent, I feel that this person, Kenzu, is someone who is capable of great harm even in prison.

[00:07:23] [SPEAKER_02] And I'm concerned about people who unknowingly get involved with him. I'm concerned for their emotional and psychological well-being and safety at this point. And that's something we've kind of grown on. I think one thing I regret on the show, perhaps most of all in this case, and I don't mind saying it, is I feel we were extremely hard on Paula while not understanding the dynamic at play here.

[00:07:51] [SPEAKER_02] I just saw her as someone who was being really kind of horrible to people online. Now that I know how he treats his female partners, I feel like I wish I'd known that then because I feel like I would have moderated my language a lot when discussing this because I think it's a complicated and disturbing dynamic. Does that absolve her of the harm she did to other people? I don't think so. I don't think it does.

[00:08:20] [SPEAKER_02] But could we have talked about it in a more nuanced, informed fashion? Yes. And I think we would have had we known that. So that to me, it's a safety issue. It's a public safety issue. When people go around, which it's been done for years, interviewing this guy and saying, wow, what a gent. And people hear that and they want to get involved. I think they're putting themselves in harm's way.

[00:08:46] [SPEAKER_02] And if people can at least be a little bit informed, maybe they can stand up for themselves even if they want to get involved.

[00:08:53] [SPEAKER_00] So that's our answer. And I apologize to Josie that we didn't give that to her.

[00:08:58] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah, I'm so sorry. It was a great question. And sorry we just – I felt like – I was like, it was a good question. We should answer it. And again, people can disagree with us. We're putting this out there to just say this is how we see it. Others can look at this and say, no, that's still not a good reason or you shouldn't do it or whatnot. There's all these sort of things. From a nosy perspective, I like to know a lot of things about the subject that I'm looking into.

[00:09:23] [SPEAKER_02] In this case, Timmy Jens Kenzu is the subject of this or at least one of the subjects of this. So I like to have more information. We wanted to get more information about Scott Macklem out there too. And if we had found a bunch of stuff about him partying, doing drugs, you can bet that would have been out there too. We didn't. But I just – I guess I'll say that because it's like maybe that's not a good reason. But I just have a lot of curiosity about this stuff too. So that's another reason.

[00:09:49] [SPEAKER_00] So what did we get wrong?

[00:09:51] [SPEAKER_02] Oh, yeah. No, well, I'm going to broaden it because – Okay. So you were very generous. You had us on the backfire effect. You even asked us like what – did we disagree with in the backfire effect or what do we feel could have been better? Or maybe just like areas where there wasn't, you know, where we kind of felt more could have been done. We want to copy you and ask you the same question about the murder sheets coverage of this case. What are some blind spots that you see? What are some areas where you disagree with?

[00:10:18] [SPEAKER_02] What are questions that you have where you're not really sure why we're doing certain things?

[00:10:22] [SPEAKER_01] I'm going to be just blunt and honest. And I will say like it's kind of a mind fuck – excuse me – language of how much I like talking to you guys and like you because I have had so many problems with the coverage. And I think some of those problems – I have not had as many problems. Like there's a lot I learned from Murder Sheet that I would not have known before. Like context on some of the relationships with women. Like the Amaco tapes. Like there's stuff I hadn't – didn't have.

[00:10:51] [SPEAKER_01] And in some ways it feels to me like there have been moments where I – when I felt how I did when I first wrote the commutation hearing transcript where I was like fuck dude this is brutal. This is brutal. Right? And you really have to like sit there and kind of like – I think similarly to a point that you were talking about before. Like I've had very little investment in his innocence. Like frankly if along the way I'd figured out he had been guilty it would have been a really interesting story.

[00:11:20] [SPEAKER_01] And that sounds very carpetbagger of me and I hear that. I don't like saying that but that's just true. Like it hasn't felt like part of my identity in the way that I think it can become people's identity. But I do just feel – continually feel like shocked at you all's conclusion and how confident you are in it because for a few reasons. It's funny.

[00:11:47] [SPEAKER_01] I was talking about this last night with my husband because I was talking through our bonus episode which you guys – it's basically just our talks. And by the way, do we include the fact that you guys met on newspapers.com? Yes, we do. Oh, no. Okay? So I want you to know that I kept that in there and that I also kept in how much I love newspapers.com and how this was a new like foray into the use of newspapers.com that I had never imagined and that it was life-changing. Hooray.

[00:12:12] [SPEAKER_02] Ad for newspapers.com.

[00:12:14] [SPEAKER_01] Ad for Newspapers.com. I'm telling you like they should hire you guys. Are you kidding me? Especially because they're connected to ancestry.com and you know like all the like marriage ads with ancestry. Anyway, I have a whole marketing plan that we will be discussing in a little bit. But I was talking to him about like my major kind of areas of disagreement with you and I was interested because he disagreed with me about the salience of one of them. Let me narrow it down a little.

[00:12:42] [SPEAKER_01] I put them in more buckets, but I'm just going to focus on two. The first is the motive slash the why. Because I think that you all rely on information that I think is uncorroborated and unreliable. And I get why because it's police reports and it's police reports by like a, you know, it starts in police reports. It's not exclusively.

[00:13:09] [SPEAKER_01] But like, you know, when I think back to you all and Kevin presented your case, I was very jealous when you presented your case because it was so clear. But the argument that he continually stalked Scott, that he, you know, heard about the pregnancy. He couldn't stand the idea of Crystal being pregnant or raising his kid with someone else. And he a few days later kills Scott. Like all of that to me when I hear that, I'm like, oh, that's pretty fucking damning. Right.

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[00:15:07] [SPEAKER_01] And then when I try to dissemble that, like so much of what we have is sourced from one guy who I don't trust. And part of the reason I don't trust him is because it feels pretty intentional to me that those accounts are not corroborated.

[00:15:31] [SPEAKER_01] So, again, we've talked about the witness who says he saw Timogen in the store and he recognized him from a lineup. I would note that those are the same lineup pictures that ended up being an issue for the appeals court years later that were misleading. But I would also say that that witness never testifies. We never hear from him again. We never hear from him. Yeah, I saw this guy.

[00:15:56] [SPEAKER_01] The same thing with Jerry Keller who, among other things, says that Timogen started getting threatened in January or February. The same thing with, you know, Peggy Freed who bounds claims Michelle admitted to her that she was lying. She later says, I never talked to that guy. I don't know anything about that. That also, to me, goes to the Halloween or the theory that Timogen knew that Crystal was pregnant. You know, nobody—you guys are the first people I've ever heard say that.

[00:16:23] [SPEAKER_01] I've heard people say that he had heard that she was getting married. But I've never heard even the theory that he could have heard that she was pregnant. And when I try to trace back where that would have happened, it would have happened at this Halloween party. Well, who saw him at this Halloween party? Well, John Bounds interviews these people who say they saw him there. Well, when we go back and talk to those people, they say—or the one who is still living, he says, I never talked to a cop. I don't even know what this is about.

[00:16:48] [SPEAKER_01] So much of the John Bounds story is specious, to say the least. And I think if you don't have motive, you have other problems. So that's, like, one area. I'd say the second area is there is a logic problem. And this is the part where my husband was like, I don't—this isn't as crazy to me as it is to you. But, like, it's so crazy to me, like, the logical issues I have with, like, this murder.

[00:17:13] [SPEAKER_01] Like, this murder requires you to plan some things and then not plan other things that would have been, to me, easier to plan. It would require him to make decisions that, like, I—it's not just, like, you have to be rational to make these. It's like you have to be almost—are we allowed to say dumb still? Please.

[00:17:35] [SPEAKER_01] You have to be, like, really dumb to not make—to not do some of the due diligence that I think would have been done if he were, like, constructing an alibi. I think the alibi thing is really hard for me because I think if facts don't align, like, if he shoots Scott at 9 a.m. in a car that isn't his, he has to get back to his car. He has to, at least at one point there and back, fill up on gas to get home. He has to know that, like, when he says, hey, wasn't I with you a couple Tuesdays ago?

[00:18:03] [SPEAKER_01] Like, he's going to get corroboration and adamant corroboration from the people at the karate school. He has to, like, run into his friends right on time. He doesn't say, like, meet me in the parking lot at 3.30 so he has a reason. He has to see people at the right time in a way that, to me, doesn't make much sense. And then later he has to make—he has to lie unnecessarily about the landlord or about the Dombrowskis when he doesn't even need them.

[00:18:29] [SPEAKER_01] There's so many—I mean, I keep joking about this, but, like, if I'm him and—I'm more rational than Timmy Jane, yes, but I don't think I'm a criminal mastermind. I'm going to bring up November 5th. I am going to—if I am running home to have an alibi, I'm going to have an alibi ready. And, like, this is not a guy who it seems like did that very carefully.

[00:18:52] [SPEAKER_01] Like, Occam's razor to me says that this ends up as a weird day, like a weird normal day. And that's aside from the car problems, which require him to, like, you know, shave three hours off the time round trip and also, like, fill up on gas twice and also drive his boat of a car, janky, whatever. Or maybe he got another car, but that's another step in the process, right?

[00:19:16] [SPEAKER_01] So there are all these kind of, like, logistically it doesn't line up to me. And I think—I'll say, like, I think what you guys have provided to this case—like, if we were just looking at the media around this case, I think what you've done is really interesting because you are giving a different perspective, a perspective that lots of people didn't have not had. And I think that's absolutely true.

[00:19:43] [SPEAKER_01] I think the part that—or that, like, what's the—like, something about your craw, like, scratches at your craw. Sticks in your craw. What is it? Sticks in your craw? Sticks in your craw. Like, you're from New York City and you know all these Southern friends. Yeah. That's remarkable. I was like, well, Anya's definitely not going to know. A sweet Irish New York City girl is not going to know sticks in your craw.

[00:20:03] [SPEAKER_02] I want this school in Virginia, so, you know. Did you?

[00:20:05] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah, I want Blueberry. Oh, I didn't know that. You know, it sticks in my craw because the impact of what you guys are doing is so big. And I think if you were to say, like, we think it's possible he did this. We think he's a total piece of shit. We think it's possible he did this. Everybody says, like, it's—you know, when people say there is no possible way, let us present an idea of, like, what is possible.

[00:20:30] [SPEAKER_01] But there is something to me that is a weight, a moral weight of, like, an argument that I think—you know, last we talked, Kevin, going back and listening to the audio was very funny because last we talked, you said you were 100% sure. And I said, I'm not even 100% sure you didn't commit this murder. Right? And I was obviously kidding, but my point being, like, I—it's—you know, I'm not sure.

[00:20:56] [SPEAKER_01] To say 100% doesn't map to me because I don't—you guys are so smart and you're so thoughtful. It's impossible for me to imagine that, like, you can't see how this can't be—he could be innocent. And it sounds like what you're saying is this is possible, but this is possible and this is a sure thing are very different. And when your work—for better or for worse—I don't think this should be you all's responsibility, but I think it's true—that your work can have an impact on what happens to him.

[00:21:26] [SPEAKER_01] That, like, when we have a governor who's already pretty unsure of what she's going to do, even if she believes he's guilty, the fact that there's someone out there saying, sorry, he's innocent, you guys become a crutch whether or not that's correct. And I find the confidence—and along with that confidence, I'll just say, it comes with, like, making some pretty big accusations. It means calling Michelle a liar, right?

[00:21:54] [SPEAKER_01] It means calling, like, people who support him, like, some of the reporting lazy or some of the—and I—like, I don't mean to be sanctimonious. I really don't because I like you guys so much. I'm like, I really want to be friends, so I don't want to be sanctimonious. But I—it just strikes me as so different than how you guys communicate, like, one-on-one.

[00:22:14] [SPEAKER_01] Because it doesn't—it seems so much more decisive in a way that feels like you have a—like, in some weird way, his life is in you all's hands, too. It shouldn't be. It shouldn't be. That's not your responsibility. But I do think on some level that's reality. And I struggle with the confidence. I would have a totally different feeling. I would disagree, but I would have such a different feeling if you guys said we think this is possible.

[00:22:45] [SPEAKER_01] But as a result, like, it is—you—people are so impressionable, and people who listen to you guys are so impressionable. And they are now hearing, it is not possible that this man is innocent. And I don't even know if you guys believe it's not possible. I believe it's possible he's guilty. I think the chance of him being guilty is 0.0001%, but it's not 100. I'm not 100% sure of anything in this world. I'm not 100% sure of, like—maybe this is just me being skeptical.

[00:23:14] [SPEAKER_01] But it doesn't seem logical to me to say you're 100% sure. And it doesn't seem aligned with how thoughtful and introspective I find you guys to be. And I don't—humble isn't the right word, but, like, reflective of, like, what's possible. Like, when I talk to you guys, it's sort of like, yeah, all of this stuff is possible. But then it doesn't feel—like, in the world, like, yes, I can see that point. I can see that point. It just feels like it concerns me because it's a lot of responsibility.

[00:23:41] [SPEAKER_01] And it's—and I worry he's going to die in there, and he didn't do this. I think he is going to die in there. I do, too. And I—that, to me, is really depressing. And I don't blame you all for that. He was going to die in there. But I don't think it helps, you know?

[00:23:59] [SPEAKER_00] In your mind, is there really that much of a difference between saying, I'm 0.000% thinking— I'm like 0.0001. English major. He might be guilty in saying, I'm 0.000.000 thinking he's—

[00:24:20] [SPEAKER_01] Yes. I think in practice, no, right? In coverage, yes, because one requires some restraint and one doesn't. Like, even a little bit of restraint, right? Like, I—it requires some—I don't know. I always feel like I'm kind of like—and I—and there have been times in my career where I have not done this well, I totally admit. But, like, I always feel like I'm a little bit at the mercy of the possible, right?

[00:24:48] [SPEAKER_01] Like, maybe I totally have this person wrong. Maybe Timmy Jin's totally fooling me. Right? Lots of the reasons I think Timmy Jin are guilty or innocent have nothing to do with him and his personality. Like, it's probably him and his personality that, like, contributes to the 0.001% where I'm like, you're, you know, you're who you are. And that is, like, not always in your best interest. But, yeah, I think it's a big difference because it's a big weight.

[00:25:16] [SPEAKER_01] It's a big responsibility to, like, say—it would be—yeah, I think it is different to me. I mean, that's an interesting question, Kevin. It's one I, like, really want to think about because I'm not sure that that's totally reasonable. And I don't know if it matters in practice. But in something about the way that I'm approaching it, it matters. If it's me, I'm 100% sure I didn't do it.

[00:25:40] [SPEAKER_01] But it feels like a big—I don't know if you're calling—if you say, look, I'm 99.999 or I'm 99 or I'm 97, like, are you going to go and say definitively that Michelle's a liar? Right? Are you going to, like—are you going to say that, like, all the other coverage, they haven't looked deep enough in it? Or are you going to say, like, they've drawn a different conclusion, they found something different than us, and we leave the possibility open that they're right and we're wrong? I don't know.

[00:26:10] [SPEAKER_01] But I think it's something.

[00:26:12] [SPEAKER_02] I would say we have tried to note where we really respect other people who disagree. You have. Totally. And that's—I mean, that's—maybe it's not—maybe it's kind of a clunky way to do this. That is our attempt to at least say, hey, you know, we're endorsing these folks, right? And, like, they came to a totally—

[00:26:31] [SPEAKER_01] You guys have done that. And I want to say that because I think that is really important. You guys have done that.

[00:26:35] [SPEAKER_02] I just want to say we don't think everyone who disagrees with us is stupid or an idiot or— Totally. Like, I just—some people—yes. But that is a—I put that in actually a very different category, weirdly, different bucket, because I think there's people who are talking about the case and there's disagreements. And then there's, I think, people talking about him and there's rape apology. And, like, those are—that's the—not everyone who is saying he's innocent is doing that. You're certainly not doing that.

[00:27:03] [SPEAKER_02] I don't feel like people I respect in other shows have done that. Or, you know, they certainly now acknowledge that there has been harm done. To me, I'm willing to throw hands over that. But I don't feel like that's fair or appropriate to be doing that with people who simply disagree and come to a different conclusion. Because, you know, also life would be super boring if everyone was just, like, being lost.

[00:27:27] [SPEAKER_01] Totally. Totally. And I guess—I mean, two things about that. One, I do want to say you guys have had people who disagree on. You've been incredibly, I think, welcoming and open to hearing that. And I appreciate that because I do think most people don't do that. So I want to be very clear about that because I don't think the fact that you guys have drawn a conclusion means that you are, like, saying about everybody else and other conclusion that they're, like, wrong or evil. And that, you know, that's how a lot of this true crime stuff works.

[00:27:56] [SPEAKER_01] If you don't agree, like, you're bad. And I don't think you guys have done that. And, again, I, like, have really enjoyed talking to you. I would say, like, yeah, life would be boring if we all agreed. And yet, it's—this is not an abstraction in some way. Like, this is—like, he either did this or he didn't. I think he didn't do this. I think—it's funny. Last night my husband was, like, sorry.

[00:28:23] [SPEAKER_01] I keep—he's, like, packing up for kids' soccer and I keep talking about him and I'm—he doesn't know what you guys are saying. So he just doesn't hear me bring him up. Oh, my God. It's, like, very fun. But, like, you know, I was, like, I feel very strongly about him not having done it versus shouldn't have been convicted because those are two different questions. Yes. And he was, like, I don't feel that strongly about it. Like, I'm more interested in the shouldn't have been convicted than the not having done it.

[00:28:49] [SPEAKER_01] And that made me kind of interrogate, like, why the not having done it thing really matters to me. And I admit my own kind of, like, what else is getting brought into this for me. Part of it is, like, one of these things is true and there is a truth here. And, like, I'm interested in the truth. I think also there is the parts of it that don't make sense to me. Like, why would you do it this way? Which is, like, my husband was, like, people do crazy things all the time.

[00:29:16] [SPEAKER_01] He was saying, like, what's most convincing to him is, like, it couldn't have been done versus, like, why did he make all these, like, small decisions? Point being that, like, at the end of the day, he's at our mercy way more than we're at his. And I wonder what it means to be, if you're 0% sure that he's innocent, that's one thing.

[00:29:41] [SPEAKER_01] If you're .0001, that's another thing to go out there and say to the world, this, we're positive this guy is guilty. I feel like I'm being very critical and I don't mean to be very, even though you guys are not. But I find it, I think it's also kind of fucking with my own head when I talk to you guys because it doesn't seem, you guys don't seem like the kind of person, people who take that lightly.

[00:30:08] [SPEAKER_02] Right? We try not to. I mean, I definitely will say I have, and I'm not trying to make excuses. No, no, don't, they're not excuses. Yeah. Kevin will say, I get a little riled up on the show. I get pissed off, especially with stuff where it's, like, violence against women that just hulk out a bit. But, you know, we try at least in the general direction, you know, like, at times where we flip about something that, you know, I think you're making a good point that it's serious. Or we say, like, you know, we think he's guilty, you know, like, I think it is serious.

[00:30:38] [SPEAKER_02] But I could see myself kind of being kind of, like, flip about at a times, you know, more out of anger than anything. I mean, what do you think? Yeah. In terms of, I think you're making good points. You don't have to be apologetic because, like. Well, because I do want to make clear that, like, none of this shit is easy.

[00:30:53] [SPEAKER_01] No. People hear these programs and they think it's easy to, like, navigate all this. It's not. Right? So I, I, but I don't think of you guys as, there are people out there who will tell any story anyway that gets clicks and listens. And I don't think of you guys that way.

[00:31:11] [SPEAKER_02] I think we've got, like, this is the anti-click story because, like, I feel like if, like, every, we got so many emails of, like, are you guys on drugs? Like, what's going, like, like, you're taking a fact? Like, a lot of those people came around and they changed their minds. Or I say that not necessarily going to the guilt side, but a lot of people were like, it's more ambiguous for me now. Or, like, you know, very much on the innocent side. And now they're like, hmm, I'm kind of weighing it still. Or I think. And some people didn't look to guilt. So, like, it was interesting.

[00:31:40] [SPEAKER_02] I'd like to say we encourage our audience to kind of lightly bully us. I know that sounds weird, but, like. You're better than me. Yeah. Well, like, we, I think we have to. I think we want people to feel like if we're making some, like, logical leaps or if making, if we're, like, kind of, like, basing too much on this or that, I want people to feel like that we're not handing them a scroll from on high of, like, here's what you should feel. That we're human beings who have our own biases and how we interpret the world. I mentioned getting angry about violence against women. That is a bias.

[00:32:11] [SPEAKER_02] That is an inherent way I see the world. Oh, it's a good bias to have. I agree. Maybe. Perhaps. But maybe it could blind me to other things or other possibilities. Or maybe I get so mad about that that then I put a lot of weight on that. So, it's like, I don't know. Like, I think we try to have that with an audience. But as you say, when you're talking to people, you do have a lot of power. And that, you know. Yeah. I don't want to do the Spider-Man quote right now. But, you know, like, it is something that, you know, should be thoughtful about, I think.

[00:32:41] [SPEAKER_01] There's so much about this case that, like, requires on either end. To overlook something. Right? Like, so many people have overlooked, like, the ways he's treated women, to your point. That, obviously, was, like, something we wanted to talk about. And it's hard. And it's, like, messy. And it's difficult. Right? And it's devastating. And then there's, like... But I guess I would just ask you guys about over... Like, because I was thinking about, like, Jerry Keller and how he says January and February.

[00:33:10] [SPEAKER_01] Or, you know, the three people at the karate school. You guys have talked about that a lot. And about, like, you think they just got it wrong. You know? Like, not that they were doing anything bad. Or, like, they got kind of convinced. And I just keep thinking about, like, what on both of our ends. Like, what has to be true for us to be right? Right? Like, what do you have to be able to pull off for us to be right? And it's not that straight. Like, there's stuff... I have to deal with the fact that, like, I don't have any other... Anybody else in mind who, like, definitely did this. Right?

[00:33:39] [SPEAKER_01] So, like, that's the thing that I, you know... I have ideas. Maybe. But, like, there's just a lot of... There's a lot that has to be true for you guys to be right. And I... It feels to me like a lot of exceptions. To me...

[00:33:53] [SPEAKER_02] But I'm open to this. Yeah. It's like... I like to use the karate studio folks as an example. It's like they're either right or Dombrowski's and Melvin Carlson are right. Like, somebody's wrong. Somebody's wrong about that day, I think. And to me, when I look at the other evidence in the context, I think it's maybe seeing the case as more of the totality of everything pointing together

[00:34:20] [SPEAKER_02] and maybe the truth having a consistency to it that he did it. That I see as kind of, you know, like... Because it's like he's calling these people, saying no. And then other people are saying, I don't really remember, but yes. And I have nothing... I never want people to feel like we think the karate studio folks are lying. They seem like really nice people. No. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Everything on the stand, like nothing against them. I just think sometimes the power of suggestion can be a lot. But I've gone over that. But it's like...

[00:34:49] [SPEAKER_02] Then on the other side, if you want to take the innocence tact, you might look at someone like Melvin Carlson and be like, he's kind of a... He's an older guy. Maybe he's being a bit stubborn. No, I didn't see you that day. And I'm not going to back down. And maybe the Dombrowskis are confused. Like, somebody's getting confused or getting their back up or doing something that's... They're not relating the accurate story that day. Because if... I mean, he gives a whole elaborate alibi.

[00:35:17] [SPEAKER_02] And I guess I just see the karate studio thing as the one outlier. And everything else is kind of being either... You know, even... I totally believe Dash Deal and his friends saw... Like, I believe them. Like, I credit that. But on the stand, it comes out that like, well, originally you told police that it was closer to four, but then it kind of keeps moving inward. And I don't think that's any perception on anybody's part. Right, right. Like, you're sort of just figuring it out. You're figuring it out. It's like suggestion. But then if it's closer to four,

[00:35:47] [SPEAKER_02] then does that give him more time? Like, yeah. But like, it's hard. I mean, and I agree with you. Like, no matter what side you're on, you're going to have to make decisions. And that's why I've tried to say at least... Like, that's why I think it is important to note like you can weigh things differently and come to a different conclusion on this one. Same with the parking lot witnesses. Like, who do you like? The karate studio folks? The parking lot folks. You know, like that. It's a Rorschach test. What you say to that is going to inform everything else.

[00:36:16] [SPEAKER_02] If you're like, wow, this guy got hypnotized. That's a mess. Throw that out. Then you're going to come to a different conclusion.

[00:36:22] [SPEAKER_01] It's so interesting because this case embodies a lot of stuff, right? And it embodies like what... I mean, the power of suggestion from Timogen, the power of suggestion from police and prosecutors, the moment, the time, what it means when someone says like he did this, like how convincing that is, how unlikable he was. There's a lot of stuff at play. And I, you know, I guess I would just say, and I sort of say this in the bonus episode to the audience too,

[00:36:51] [SPEAKER_01] but like we're both part of this now. Like we are not actual like just observers. Like, and this is kind of new for a project for me. Most of the time I'm doing something, the decisions, it's not innocent. So like that's outside or like, like my last project was like a 1970s. It's like, it's over, right? Yeah. And I'm like, I'm a part of this. And like, I,

[00:37:22] [SPEAKER_01] you know, I feel some sort of responsibility to what I believe is true. I think you guys have been honest about what you guys believe is true, but I guess I would just implore you guys to like still consider the possibility that like he's innocent. That's not an endorsement of anything else, obviously. And it might not even matter. Like I don't see him getting out anytime soon, but you know, to me,

[00:37:51] [SPEAKER_01] it's a real indictment of the system more than it's an indictment of him. I'm more scared of a system that can get away with this than I am of a man like him, even though I do find him to be like, you know, I don't, that's not counting out, like discounting what he's put women through. It's just to say, I'm so much more scared of like the ability to lock someone like him up for what I think is a pretty demonstrable case and in a really unfair,

[00:38:21] [SPEAKER_01] I mean, all the issues at trial, whatever, but like, and then, and then what? I don't know. I just feel like we're all part of this now. Like I said this to him at some point. I was like, we're all in the same community now. Like we're all invested in this case and we've all changed people's mind about this case or introduced it to people or told people about it. What does that responsibility look like? I don't know. These are just things I'm thinking about out loud.

[00:38:41] [SPEAKER_02] So you say we've cursed ourselves. We're all cursed. We're all cursed and trapped.

[00:38:45] [SPEAKER_01] Or we wouldn't be podcasters. This is hell. Okay. If we weren't cursed, we wouldn't be in this job. Guys. We wouldn't have the headphones on the mic. COVID was, we all died during COVID and this is. And this is where we are. This is where we are. We've been in hell.

[00:39:01] [SPEAKER_02] I just want to say, Josie, we're so grateful to you. I feel like you've given us a lot to think about and I just appreciate the way you approached the backfire effect. And again, we still disagree with the conclusions, but I think there's some really interesting questions that I'd even like to do more reporting on to like get to the bottom of. Like it's inspiring in that sense and it's inspiring to see you taking the rape accusations and the beatings and the treatment of women seriously,

[00:39:31] [SPEAKER_02] which is what we always advocate for. And we just appreciate you. You are so nice and you are lovely to talk to. And we were nervous to talk to you too because we were like, oh no. I feel like we kind of sound harsh via email. Like, hey, is anyone going to talk about the rape?

[00:39:45] [SPEAKER_01] I really appreciate how much you guys have reached out. It's been really great to talk to you guys and I hope this is not the last time. Yeah, go ahead.

[00:39:53] [SPEAKER_00] I hope after you see, you can see everything. We get a chance to talk about it, whether on the show or just us. Can you please,

[00:40:01] [SPEAKER_01] we need a week-long special of just that and I would love to join.

[00:40:05] [SPEAKER_00] Thanks again to Josie for speaking with us. We really appreciate the conversation and the questions and issues she raised with us. We would definitely be thinking about those going forward. Thanks so much for listening to the Murder Sheet. If you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover, please email us at murdersheet at gmail dot com. If you have actionable information about an unsolved crime, please report it to the appropriate authorities.

[00:40:35] [SPEAKER_02] If you're interested in joining our Patreon, that's available at www.patreon.com slash murdersheet. If you want to tip us a bit of money for records requests, you can do so at www.buymeacoffee.com slash murdersheet. We very much appreciate any support.

[00:40:58] [SPEAKER_00] Special thanks to Kevin Tyler Greenlee, who composed the music for the Murder Sheet and who you can find on the web at kevintg.com.

[00:41:08] [SPEAKER_02] If you're looking to talk with other listeners about a case we've covered, you can join the Murder Sheet discussion group on Facebook. We mostly focus our time on research and reporting, so we're not on social media much. We do try to check our email account, but we ask for patience, as we often receive a lot of messages. Thanks again for listening.

[00:41:31] And we really do.