The Murder of Scott Macklem: The Guilt of Temujin Kensu: Flaming Framed: Season Three: Part One

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[00:03:27] [SPEAKER_02] I apologize in advance for my voice. I'm getting over a cold. I was just tired of holding my tongue on this, and I wanted to share my views on it with you. Content warning. This is an episode about Temujin Kinzu. So naturally, it contains discussion of murder, intimate partner violence, rape, child abuse, animal abuse, and probably every other human sin and depravity you can think of.

[00:03:53] [SPEAKER_02] It will also include some cursing, this time not just from Anya, but also from myself, as I am pretty upset with the sloppy work done here by Mr. Habel, which has caused real pain to a lot of people, as we will elaborate on.

[00:04:08] [SPEAKER_02] So, in its latest season covering the murder of Scott Macklin, the podcast Framed, an investigative story, and his host and creator, Mr. Aaron Habel, repeatedly appeared to twist the narrative to the point of inaccuracy in order to whitewash and benefit convicted murderer Temujin Kinzu. I would also remind you that Mr. Kinzu has been credibly accused of rape and physical abuse and emotional abuse by a host of women. We even have had recordings of the show of him emotionally abusing his wife.

[00:04:38] [SPEAKER_02] Mr. Habel, as I say, he's twisted the narrative in order to whitewash this man and benefit him. At the same time, Mr. Habel's framing of Kinzu's many, many victims, including Macklin, Macklin's fiancée and Kinzu's survival, Crystal, and Macklin's parents, amongst many others, was inhumane and counterfactual, often casting them as non-credible or even involved in an effort to botch the case. Or, in many cases, barely mentioning other survivors at all or erasing their experiences.

[00:05:06] [SPEAKER_02] A desperate last-minute rendition of another podcast coverage of Mr. Kinzu's disturbing behavior did little to ameliorate Framed's many, many, many failings. But perhaps the most disturbing of all in depicting himself as a neutral arbitrator, Mr. Habel himself failed to disclose to his audience his years-long participation in Team Kinzu's campaign to free a convicted killer, who, again, has also been credibly accused of rape and horrible physical abuse by multiple women.

[00:05:35] [SPEAKER_02] In short, Mr. Habel, his produced book, can only be termed a moral and ethical disaster. And we will get into why that is, not just in this episode, but in the one following.

[00:05:46] [SPEAKER_04] It's safe to say that sometimes listeners get upset with us when we criticize other podcasters. And I frankly tend to think there's a bias among some people for everyone to just get along or keep quiet about things going wrong. And to a certain extent, I understand that. For as much as we critique other podcasters, we don't particularly enjoy doing so.

[00:06:09] [SPEAKER_04] But make no mistake, silence in the face of things that we know to be wrong, morally and factually, is complicity. Much like us, Habel's podcasts are supported by advertising. That means that we all make money off of these cases. And we view everyone who does that, everyone who does so, as being someone who has willingly walked into the arena. The public arena.

[00:06:37] [SPEAKER_04] And when someone with a platform uses it in a way we feel is improper or unethical, and that it could possibly make an impact on the public's understanding of the case or the lives of people who have already suffered. And it's a case we know extremely well, where we fully understand how much it affects victims and survivors. Then we are compelled to speak out. We could frankly not live with ourselves otherwise.

[00:07:04] [SPEAKER_04] So speaking out, even when it's unpopular and doesn't win us any pals in the industry, is the very least we can do as far as we see it. Self-criticism and policing from within true crime is also, in our view, one of the only things that might improve true crime somewhat in the long run. The other thing is the audience becoming a lot more discerning and frankly calling people out themselves. But we think these two things are actually complementary and can feed into one another.

[00:07:33] [SPEAKER_04] Now, as a note, we're not going to make this an episode or a series of episodes where we tear apart every single issue or mistake. Because frankly, in Frame Season 3, there's way too much of that and we'll be here forever. But we are going to try to focus on what we feel is especially egregious.

[00:07:52] [SPEAKER_02] Another reason we don't want to go over every single one of the many misstatements, inaccuracies and eye-rolling moments in this disaster of a podcast is because, frankly, it would be repetitive. Frame Season 3 brings up absolutely nothing new. Many of you followed us on the Delphi murders case. People in that case got tired of the defense endlessly bringing up points that were settled. This is that on steroids.

[00:08:16] [SPEAKER_02] Mr. Habel is repeating points that have been litigated and relitigated that Mr. Kinzu has repeatedly lost for decades. This podcast, in some ways, is a lazy collection of tiresome old talking points. And also, another thing about it that makes it so sloppy is it feels like some of these scripts were written months, if not years ago, and never updated.

[00:08:39] [SPEAKER_02] For instance, at the end of Episode 7, as we will discuss in more detail later, it's about how great it is that Kinzu has found this wonderful woman, Paula, to marry. Gosh, how did that turn out?

[00:08:51] [SPEAKER_04] How's that going?

[00:08:52] [SPEAKER_02] The only thing Mr. Habel brings to the table that is new is what seems to be an embarrassing love for Mr. Kinzu. He speaks about Mr. Kinzu in a way that I might have spoken about Fonzie when I was seven years old.

[00:09:09] [SPEAKER_04] It's disturbing, frankly. We feel in general that the problems with Frames Season 3 tend to boil into approximately six major categories or issues, whatever you want to call it. One, lack of understanding of how things work. For instance, Aaron Habel seems to not realize what motions in limine are. So that's one problem. What's another? Let's go back and forth. What's another category?

[00:09:36] [SPEAKER_02] Another category is Mr. Habel's seeming lack of ability or interest in ever engaging with people who disagree with him on this case. He is very intellectually condescending. And frankly, it is totally undeserved because if you listen to these episodes, it becomes apparent that he has no understanding of this case.

[00:09:56] [SPEAKER_04] Three would be the stupid claims and things that make no sense if you think about them for more than five seconds. That's a pretty popular theme throughout this.

[00:10:05] [SPEAKER_02] Another category we will see a lot of is what a great guy Mr. Kinzu is slash Mr. Habel's own personal bias.

[00:10:12] [SPEAKER_04] You also have factual statements and consciousness of guilt. I think you should explain this one, Kevin, because you pointed this out as we were looking at it again and again.

[00:10:23] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah, we will highlight this when we come to it. But there's times when Mr. Habel wants to inject some inaccurate information into the bloodstream because I don't know why I can speculate. Whatever. He wants the bad information to get out there. But he knows that he would be criticized if he put bad information out there.

[00:10:45] [SPEAKER_02] So he will write his script in such a way that he can deny saying the bad information while still strongly creating the impression of the bad information. And that'll make more sense once we get to an example of it.

[00:10:59] [SPEAKER_04] Absolutely. And then the last one would be probably the most disgusting. Kevin and I, I think, would both agree on this. And that is minimizing rape and lack of concern for the real victims of this case. And that is unfortunately rife throughout this podcast. So what I hope for by the end of this is that we don't just have a framework, no pun intended, for how Habel committed malpractice in frame season three.

[00:11:25] [SPEAKER_04] But that we also are all more aware of how shows try to disguise their incredibly thin research and overt biases. This is something that unfortunately I can't say that Aaron Habel is the only practitioner of this sort of podcasting. I think it's endemic and I think people need to be aware of it. And if we know that, if we know the signs, if we know how to pick this apart, we can all better ward off attempts at manipulation in these cases. Anything else to say before we begin?

[00:11:55] [SPEAKER_01] Let's begin.

[00:11:56] [SPEAKER_04] Let's go. My name is Anya Kane. I'm a journalist.

[00:11:59] [SPEAKER_01] And I'm Kevin Greenlee. I'm an attorney.

[00:12:01] [SPEAKER_04] And this is The Murder Sheet.

[00:12:03] [SPEAKER_01] We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews, and deep dives into murder cases. We're The Murder Sheet.

[00:12:12] [SPEAKER_02] And this is The Murder of Scott Macklem, The Guilt of Temujin Kinsu, Flaming Framed Season 3, Part 1.

[00:13:03] [SPEAKER_04] One of the big reasons why Kevin and I are so angry and exasperated and outraged by Framed Season 3 is because of stuff that actually didn't appear in Framed Season 3, in fairness.

[00:13:15] [SPEAKER_02] Which is him misleading and being less than truthful and candid about his allegiance in this case.

[00:13:22] [SPEAKER_04] Yeah. These are statements that precede this show coming out.

[00:13:25] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. And we'll get to those. But I want to highlight that he's one of these guys who says different things depending on what room he is in. And he has said, oh, I have no course in this race. Doesn't affect me if he gets out or not. Blah, blah, blah. He is posing. He is posing as an uninterested arbiter. Just a disinterested fellow just only looking for the truth. Of course. That's all a lie. And why do we know it's a lie?

[00:13:50] [SPEAKER_04] Well, to know why it's a lie, we must go back to February 11th, 2025. That is when a person named Joy Marie Mann had Habel on as a guest on her YouTube live stream. Now, Mann is no stranger to activism in this case. We think it's fair to call her a devoted acolyte of Team Kenzu.

[00:14:14] [SPEAKER_04] After all, on June 2nd, 2025, she did come out with a self-published book that she dedicated to Kenzu, calling him her warrior brother. And by the way, that book is called Our Friend Temujin.

[00:14:29] [SPEAKER_02] Of course it is.

[00:14:29] [SPEAKER_04] Of course it is. I feel like if we made up a parody of this, we couldn't do better than that. So anyways, you know, this is someone who, while portraying herself as, you know, the most progressive person who's ever lived, also wrote a book that is essentially a self-published exercise in rape apology. How do you erase victims' experiences? How do you malign rape victims? She wrote that book. But one of the most misogynistic things I've ever read.

[00:14:53] [SPEAKER_02] And let me just interrupt for just a second. I want to make an obvious point. You can defend Mr. Kenzu. You can say he's innocent without minimizing rape.

[00:15:03] [SPEAKER_04] Yes, it's very possible and actually, in fact, easy to do. You say, yes, I believe these women. He was a bad guy. I don't think there's enough evidence. See? I just did it right now. It's super easy. And I don't even believe that. I think he's guilty.

[00:15:15] [SPEAKER_02] So everything we are about to hear about him minimizing and disregarding the experiences of women who have been raped and abused by his friend Temujin, totally unnecessary.

[00:15:26] [SPEAKER_04] No, it's totally unnecessary. We've had people on our show that we respect that disagree with us, that think he's innocent. Or at the very least, you know, don't think the state proved its case. What have you? I don't want to speak for anybody, but they're not sold on guilt. Let's just say that. And you know what? That's fine. That's an intellectually fine position. I do not share it whatsoever. But I will never criticize someone for having a different opinion than me about that.

[00:15:52] [SPEAKER_04] But when you start going after people who are victims, that's when we have a serious problem. And that is what this show is.

[00:16:00] [SPEAKER_02] By this show, you mean framed. I got you off course. I was a bad co-host. No, you're wonderful. I apologize. Get back to Joy Marie Mann and her awful YouTube channel.

[00:16:09] [SPEAKER_04] Yeah, it's really. So yeah. So you mentioned the horse in the race. He doesn't have a horse in the race. Let's see how many horses in the race this guy has in reality. This is Aaron Abel in conversation with Joy Marie Mann.

[00:16:22] [SPEAKER_01] So what was your reaction when you finally got to see the man, the myth of legend in person?

[00:16:29] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah, no, I think in all the time I've been covering stories and watching videos, interviews, meeting with people. Temujin is easily one of the most well-spoken people you'll ever meet who's in his position. It's pretty fascinating that someone in his position has got the mind like what he does. His ability to put together his own case.

[00:16:59] [SPEAKER_00] I know that's something that happens frequently with people who are working to free themselves and with others. But Temujin is, he's just, he's an ace. You have any questions for him? He knows the names. He knows the dates. It's, um, the funniest thing about him though, what I would say is he always wants to know what he can do for you.

[00:17:21] [SPEAKER_02] Oh, what a sweetie Temujin Kinsu is. That doesn't sound like a neutral party to me. It sounds like a fanboy or perhaps, perhaps we need a new term. Perhaps we should start referring also to a Kinsu cult.

[00:17:32] [SPEAKER_04] How would this sound different if it was a cult? The man, the myth, the legend. And, you know, if, if I were able, like, and I heard the host opening up with that, I think I would run, you know, if, if you had any sort of, I don't know, integrity. Yeah. Ask not what you can do for Kenzu, but ask what Kenzu can do for a podcast host that's going to be carrying his water. Is that what JFK said?

[00:17:55] [SPEAKER_02] But it gets worse, doesn't it, Anya?

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[00:22:45] [SPEAKER_00] No, seriously, you can tell he's worked on every aspect of his life to be a better person. If we can get him out, which is all our goals, then we would see a person being released in a society who can contribute, help other people. Just be a light for everybody, really.

[00:23:03] [SPEAKER_02] A light for everybody. A light for everybody. It's hard for me to imagine anyone being more wrong about anything than that, than saying that Timogen Kenzu is a light. Look at this man's life. You can, you can make a case, you can, you can try to argue you're wrong. You're very wrong. But you can argue that he's innocent of the murders, but you can't argue that he is a light.

[00:23:29] [SPEAKER_02] And I would think if I was ever so wrong about a topic as Mr. Habel was in that clip we just played, I would be humble enough to say maybe, maybe I shouldn't talk about this anymore. Maybe my judgment isn't good. But also, we can all laugh at his stupid, he's a light for everybody. But also in there, he says explicitly that the goal is to get Mr. Kenzu out.

[00:23:53] [SPEAKER_02] So he has lied to listeners of Frame because he is telling them, oh, it's all neutral. Oh, I don't have a horse in the race. His goal is to get him out. And you need to listen to the podcast with the idea that you are listening to an advocate. Say what you will about us. We try to present both sides. And also, we put our opinion in the title of our series.

[00:24:17] [SPEAKER_04] Yeah, we weren't subtle.

[00:24:19] [SPEAKER_02] We don't lie to the audience as Mr. Habel does.

[00:24:22] [SPEAKER_04] Yeah, I was so appalled by this. He doesn't have a horse in the race. He has a fucking stable, OK? And instead, Habel's stables. It's like, instead of just being honest about that, listen, I mean, like, you know, opinions are going to come out in true crime. I mean, I don't think there's anything wrong with going for a subjective type of show where I think this is what happened. As long as you're not hiding the ball with, like, key evidence, which a lot of people do. But this is worse than that.

[00:24:50] [SPEAKER_04] It's like acting like you're this neutral arbiter. And listen, you say your thing is if someone's so stupid that they fall for this cult leader, they shouldn't podcast. And in an ideal world, I agree with you. But we don't live in an ideal world. We live in a world where anyone can podcast, you know, and anyone does podcasts, you know. So if that's the case, I would hope that somebody in that position, if they're going to continue with the project, that they would be open about that. And frankly, I'm going to tell you this.

[00:25:19] [SPEAKER_04] I think if Habel had treated this like I started off as this big advocate, but I learned more over time and I got kind of disturbed by it, even if it didn't quite change my opinion. Like, I acknowledged that I was very much taken in by something that did not exist. I would have given him a ton of credit. You know, I would have been like, wow, like, that's pretty honest. That's pretty candid. Good for him.

[00:25:44] [SPEAKER_04] You know, but to note to everybody, there is nothing in this show in which he turns around and says, well, I'd been advocating for his release or I was trying to get him released with this or any of this. But then I changed my mind. No one can come at us and say, well, maybe he's changed his mind. If he did, then he had a friggin duty to say that on his show. You know, you can't just speak publicly about this. Also, I want to note something. I want to note something. This stuff has been out there for a while. I mentioned 2025. Right.

[00:26:13] [SPEAKER_04] He's been working on this for that long. The show doesn't sound like he's been working on it for that long, frankly, but I think he has. But it's been out there for that long, you know, and then he can't like he I think his main source for this show is Temujin. You know, I think it's Kenzu himself. I have been on pretty good authority that I'm pretty sure he did not talk to some key people.

[00:26:32] [SPEAKER_04] And I think that, you know, when I hear sometimes I don't know if he said this, but I've heard sometimes people say like, well, you know, Scott's side won't really talk to anyone. Well, they talk to us, but that's beside the point. They won't talk to anyone. Yeah. Why would they talk to somebody when they're going out there? This person's going out there and saying without even having put the podcast out yet. It's my goal to get him released.

[00:27:00] [SPEAKER_04] All these women who are terrified of Kenzu being released. Why would they trust you?

[00:27:04] [SPEAKER_02] And we'll see what happened later when he tries to talk to Lena. I want to amend something you said. I think it's possible he talked to people other than Temujin, but I think everybody he spoke to was somebody under the thumb of Temujin.

[00:27:15] [SPEAKER_04] Yeah. I mean, it's just disgusting. A light of the world. The thing when I heard that I literally my eyes roll back and I just went back to the show Big Little Lies with Laura Dern, Renata, iconic character that I relate to too much. Just saying, not in my world, not in the world I'm living in. No, like this is how he's starting out. OK, this is and again, this is not ever addressed. Let's move on.

[00:27:39] [SPEAKER_02] A couple more clips from the YouTube.

[00:27:40] [SPEAKER_04] This is a very telling statement about, you know, what he thinks is the real tragedy here and the real important thing. Right.

[00:27:48] [SPEAKER_00] Mm hmm. Anybody that's looked into this case can see all the ways in which this has been a travesty. You know, I mean, say what you will about the victim not getting true justice. But what's been done to Temujin over all these years?

[00:28:04] [SPEAKER_04] Yeah, someone got murdered. A young 20 year old man got murdered before he could meet his firstborn son and live the rest of his life and get married to a woman he loved. But let's talk about the real issue. Kenzu's been sat in prison. You know. Also, does no one look up this guy's social media? Like, that would be the first thing I'd do with anyone I was talking to. Like, you know what I mean? Like, oh, it's not subtle. It's not subtle that this guy is like a very hateful person.

[00:28:30] [SPEAKER_04] You know, I mean, he spends all day attacking people online. It's not normal.

[00:28:37] [SPEAKER_02] Talking about Mr. Kenzu.

[00:28:38] [SPEAKER_04] Yes. Yeah. It's just I don't know. It's just ridiculous.

[00:28:43] [SPEAKER_02] And got a couple more clips. Yeah.

[00:28:45] [SPEAKER_04] I think the next clip is all about how excited we all should be. For Kenzu to ultimately get released.

[00:28:52] [SPEAKER_00] I think he does welcome the other conversations. And especially when he gets to help you in some way, whether he thinks it's through advice or trying to lift you up. You know, he's very good at trying to to make you laugh. It's almost like he can tell when things are getting a little rough with the conversations. And he doesn't want anyone leaving feeling like, hey, this is depressing.

[00:29:17] [SPEAKER_00] He always it always feels like to me that Temujin wants you to walk away feeling hope and feeling better for the conversation that you had with him. I think he really treasures his friendships and any kind of relationships he has. And if given the chance, he would have great relationships with everybody he's come across. But as we know in life, there are some people whose job it is is to not be nice to the person they deal with every day.

[00:29:46] [SPEAKER_00] It's to keep them in line or keep them under their fingers. So I think, you know, again, if he were out, this would be a guy so many more people get to know and appreciate.

[00:29:59] [SPEAKER_02] No, if he were out, there'd be a lot more women being raped and abused. I mean, that's that's the fact that that doesn't sound at all how he describes Mr. Kenzu with the man as he actually is. It just sounds like a very delusional man in Mr. Havel.

[00:30:16] [SPEAKER_04] What what what makes a grown adult act like this about Kenzu? I don't understand it.

[00:30:23] [SPEAKER_02] And it's interesting.

[00:30:23] [SPEAKER_04] I don't understand, Kevin. He's not that charming.

[00:30:26] [SPEAKER_02] He tries to argue that, oh, he lies. He says, oh, the people who think he's guilty just say that because they don't like him. No, I don't like him. But I think he's guilty because of the weight of the evidence against him. But he says what you think about him as a person doesn't matter. However, if what we think about him as a person doesn't matter, why does every chance you get Mr. Havel seem to want to give him a blowjob? Sorry to be blunt, but I mean, that's that's what's happening. I mean, it gets worse.

[00:30:54] [SPEAKER_04] It gets worse. Let's let's go into it. Oh, my God.

[00:30:57] [SPEAKER_00] When I talked with him, I did ask him about Dash because, you know, Dash was at the meetup and it's so obvious. He he told me how important Dash is to him, how much he loves him. And so it was again, you talk to him, you're just getting the stories and he's not even out yet. And he's got all these people that he feels he owes so much to because they've they've just been there for him the whole time. And he'll never forget that.

[00:31:25] [SPEAKER_04] Yeah. Hey, Havel, here's an idea. If he gets out and he credits you with that, he should have to live with you for the rest of his life. How does that sound? Does that sound like a fair deal? You know, maybe house arrest at a Havel household. See how quickly you start to really enjoy that and how much the blinding light of your life really starts to give you a headache.

[00:31:47] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah, it's crazy. It's creepy. Oh, he's like he's a light.

[00:31:51] [SPEAKER_04] I just I again like what is wrong? I mean, why? I don't I don't get it. I don't get it.

[00:31:57] [SPEAKER_02] I would be embarrassed. I would be humiliated as an adult to talk that way about another human being. I wasn't in a romantic relationship.

[00:32:04] [SPEAKER_04] Can you imagine if I started talking that way about a guest?

[00:32:07] [SPEAKER_02] I'd be worried.

[00:32:08] [SPEAKER_04] Yeah, you I mean, good Lord. I don't I with with with Hable. It's like I don't understand it at all. I don't know the guy. So, I mean, maybe he does this with a lot of murderers. I find it very bizarre and I wish that he had addressed it in some way. I think he owed that to his audience. If if he was if he was duped, if he was taken in, he had a responsibility to clarify that this is not how he feels and he did not. He had eight episodes to do that in. Didn't do it.

[00:32:37] [SPEAKER_02] Anya, tell us more about Joy Marie Mann and her book. And we mentioned this because Mr. Hable is a contributor to this awful, awful book.

[00:32:46] [SPEAKER_04] Yeah. This book, I just want to be clear, is garbage. It is essentially one extremely long, poorly conducted interview with a malignant narcissist, i.e. Temujin Kenzu, by a slobbering fangirl, i.e. Joy Marie Mann. It is it's it's just not good. It's not good to read. It's not funny. Bad. It's just bad. And again, as I mentioned, it's rife with misogyny, especially directed towards Crystal.

[00:33:12] [SPEAKER_04] Now, Crystal, of course, is it was the fiance of Scott Macklem, the mother of his child who lost a man she loved to Kenzu after having been raped and assaulted by Kenzu on multiple occasions. So Crystal's a victim here. People who think Kenzu's innocent. You know, I've talked to people where they think they say, I believe her. I believe her. I don't think she lied. I just think the evidence isn't enough. And to me, that's fine. There's nothing victim blamey or bad about that.

[00:33:40] [SPEAKER_04] But, you know, that's not what Joy Marie Mann thinks. Joy Marie Mann in this book, I want to be very clear, included a whole section where she speculated using falsehoods and lies about how Crystal might have done the murders. Like, it's that kind of book. Like, she's writing fan fiction about how Crystal might have killed Scott. Like, it's that bad. That's so beyond the pale to me.

[00:34:01] [SPEAKER_04] Now, if I were a, like, thoughtful and, you know, caring, normal person who happened to think Kenzu was innocent, I wouldn't want to participate in that. I would run screaming from that. Okay? You even heard her talking about the man, the myth, the legend. You know, I mean, like, what? You know, like, this is getting into weird, creepy fangirl territory. This is not, this is not, like, credible. This is not, like, professional. This is just weird.

[00:34:29] [SPEAKER_04] So, naturally, Aaron Habel submits to her a, you know, weird little thing of his own for her to include in her book. Again, why? I don't know.

[00:34:38] [SPEAKER_02] Again, he's, oh, there's a book you're writing that accuses a rape victim of murder? I want to be a part of that.

[00:34:44] [SPEAKER_04] Sign me up. Sign me the hell up. I mean, again, why? I don't understand. So, to this, and again, it's literally called Our Friend Temujin. Like, you can't make this up. It sounds like we're making that up to make fun of someone, but that is literally what it's called. So, this is what he writes in a submission titled, If Only They Knew.

[00:35:05] [SPEAKER_04] In any well-written story, even ones in which the evidence suggesting that someone was a killer was circumstantial at best, it has to make sense. So, too, in the real world, we want to understand why someone was arrested or even convicted of a serious crime such as murder. Some really novel, fascinating insights there. Also, you know, when I hear people talk about circumstantial evidence like that, it's an immediate red flag for me. I'm just going to say that.

[00:35:35] [SPEAKER_04] So, he goes on to incorrectly summarize the case against Kenzu as, in his view, which is not true at all, entirely consisting of a statement from Crystal and a statement from Philip Joplin, the jailhouse informant, which is, again, not true. And, again, when you don't know a case, why do you feel the need to speak on it and write on it and do all this stuff before you have researched it?

[00:36:01] [SPEAKER_02] His level of ignorance about this case is astonishing to me. It is astonishing to me. That's all I want to say. Even now, with this awful thing he did, it's just astonishing to me, the depths of his ignorance combined with his unearned intellectual arrogance and lack of interest in engaging with others. He's not—I mean, this is the line I use with Mr. Kenzu all the time. Mr. Habel does not appear to be a very smart man.

[00:36:29] [SPEAKER_02] He doesn't understand this case.

[00:36:31] [SPEAKER_04] At one point, I mean, he overly emphasizes the plane theory and acts like basically that that was their way to, like, get him down there when the whole case was about how he drove, you know? I mean, the whole case was like that was a rebuttal witness. Do you not know what a rebuttal witness is? And, you know, again, you can criticize the plane theory, but he just overstates everything.

[00:36:55] [SPEAKER_04] And just all of these inane attempts for the reader to relate to Kenzu, let me read the following. If you have ever had to have someone vouch for you to get a job or to prove that you told the truth, you know that sometimes life isn't fair. You won't be taken seriously or have your opportunity to get where you need to be in life without someone else stepping up and going to bat for you. What?

[00:37:24] [SPEAKER_04] What are we talking about? Like, is he just, like, drifting off into his own weird memories where he didn't get hired for the job he wanted? I don't even understand. What are we talking about?

[00:37:31] [SPEAKER_02] He's not a good communicator. No, he's not. That's for sure.

[00:37:34] [SPEAKER_04] We can tell you more about that later. Talks about he was convicted without evidence. Yeah, I mean, multiple witnesses and, you know, all the evidence they presented at trial, I guess, doesn't count according to Habel. Because, you know, like what he thinks is important is the only thing that matters, obviously. This is the part that I think just summarizes how Habel views the world. And it is important to understand because I think it kind of tells us what is to come.

[00:38:01] [SPEAKER_04] A popular trope in films is when the truth is revealed via audio or a video in which the true killer is unmasked or it becomes blatantly obvious that the person blamed for a crime is innocent. The Fugitive, Minority Report, and other films have tried to convince us that the truth shall set you free and bring justice to those wronged or killed. Sadly, as we have seen over the years, Hollywood fiction has nothing to do with the actual world we live in.

[00:38:30] [SPEAKER_02] But, Anya, how would you feel if I came on the program and we talked about a case and I said, you know, Anya, this isn't how they did it in Scooby-Doo. I'd look like a fool. Movies are movies.

[00:38:42] [SPEAKER_04] This guy couldn't have committed bank robbery because he didn't dress up as a ghost. That's how crimes work, right? You know, the crime scene wasn't at an abandoned fun land. So, I mean, it must be. I mean, like, what are we talking? It's a child's view of reality. A child watches a movie and thinks, ah, yes, life must be like that. And then a child grows up and realizes, no, that's not true.

[00:39:05] [SPEAKER_04] If you're in your 40s or however old this guy is and coming to the conclusion that Hollywood fiction isn't really accurate and that but that but that you still want it to be what's happening here. I don't know what to tell you, but I could tell you you should not be in the true crime podcasting space if this is how you view reality. I think a lot of people talk about how people fall for Kenzu and they talk about, like, oh, these people must all be naive. I don't think they're naive. I think they're highly cynical. And here's why I say that.

[00:39:35] [SPEAKER_04] I think Kenzu is the kind of guy when you listen to interviews with him, if you have any sort of, like, common sense in your body, he starts immediately setting off red flags. There's something about our instincts that we know there's something wrong with this guy. There's something not right. He's not talking in a way that seems safe. There's something wrong with this guy, even when he's not being, like, a jerk overtly. But I think people feel that.

[00:39:58] [SPEAKER_04] But I think the story of the impossible murder is too freaking good to check or to even, like, push back against the hero of the story. You know, the Harrison Ford character, according to freaking Aaron Abel here with The Fugitive. You know, you don't want to say anything bad about him.

[00:40:17] [SPEAKER_04] A Hollywood screenwriter is going to write a very sort of black and white simplistic story in order to write a really good blockbuster that appeals to the masses where you don't have to think too much about it. There's not too much nuance. Harrison Ford is innocent. He loved his wife. He is on the run. The marshals are trying to get him. They have their job to do. They're not bad, but, like, they're the antagonist. It's all very simple.

[00:40:41] [SPEAKER_04] In reality, sometimes the narrative we've been given that's so simple turns out to be a falsehood or at least extremely overstated, which is exactly what happened here. But people like Abel don't want to let it go because they view the world in terms of narrative form like this, which is, again, in my view, the mark of a child. That is the mind of a child. It's pathetic. Oh, and then beautifully, he ends with an Amanda Gorman quote. There is no better compass than compassion.

[00:41:12] [SPEAKER_04] So to me, it's like, OK, maybe that maybe some of that compassion could have been used by Aaron towards some of the, you know, rape victims and the real victims in this case. But, OK, here we go. Oh, and it ends with a cutie note about how he's a Godzilla enthusiast and enjoys long walks on the beach like this is a dating profile. In a story about a guy who was raping and, you know, women and murdered somebody. So that's cute. That's fun. That's really nice.

[00:41:35] [SPEAKER_02] And I'll say, obviously, we read this book last year and we didn't comment on it then. Let me know if you would agree with me, Anya. What you just read from his little essay there is really stupid and embarrassing. But there's nothing like really. That's not an ethical disaster. That's still to come, right?

[00:41:55] [SPEAKER_04] To me, the ethical disaster is that he was this enmeshed in Team Kenzu and did not disclose that whatsoever to his audience. That's the ethical disaster. If he'd done this and been like, guys, I love Timo Jinkensu. I'm best friends with him. I'm doing all this stuff with him. I mean, we would have dunked on him, but I wouldn't have called it like an ethical disaster. It'd be just like you seem really stupid. But to me, there's something really pernicious and like wolf in sheep's clothing with somebody who's acting like, I don't know, guys. I just don't really care.

[00:42:25] [SPEAKER_04] And then like is like, we need to get him out. Like, which is it? And you can't. You can't just not. You can't just change your mind quietly. At that point, you have to say something. All right. I think maybe we're ready to finally start episode one. I mean, again, all that context, I feel like is necessary in order to get into why we're pretty ticked off about this whole thing. But now we can go into the meat of frame.

[00:42:54] [SPEAKER_00] So play the first clip. Let's do it. He settled quickly on a single suspect, a brash young man who was leading a somewhat alternative lifestyle.

[00:43:04] [SPEAKER_02] I wanted to talk about that because it again strikes at the way it strikes at honesty. It is a good example of the dishonesty at the heart of this because the contention there, what his unwary listeners are supposed to walk away with is there was no real reason for Temujin Kenzu to be considered a suspect in this case. He was just different. He was just a little bit different. He had a different lifestyle.

[00:43:32] [SPEAKER_02] So he liked to abuse and rape women. That was just his thing, Anya. The fact is, if you are honest, and first of all, if you're not honest, then anything you produce is garbage as this show is garbage. But if you are honest, you can say, I think this man is innocent. You'd be wrong. But you can say, even though I think he's innocent, I understand why he was suspected. He wasn't suspected because he had a different lifestyle.

[00:44:00] [SPEAKER_02] He was suspected because he was a violent, abusive thug who had been repeatedly threatening the victim.

[00:44:08] [SPEAKER_04] You know what this section reminds me of? And again, I swear to you, I think Drill, the Twitter poet laureate, is somebody who in some ways so encapsulates so much of true crime for me, like the personalities and the statements. This brash lifestyle comment just brings me back to, ah, so you persecute Jared Fogle just because he has different beliefs. Do tell. Girls get mad at me. Sorry, I'm sorry. I'm trying to remove it.

[00:44:39] [SPEAKER_04] That's what this is. Down to the like, he walks up to the line of saying, yeah, there's something off about this guy, but then puts it in a very mild form in order to basically trick his audience. One reason he didn't comment on this right away is because I understand and appreciate that sometimes when you're doing a serialized storytelling, you might like have a twist later on, right?

[00:45:04] [SPEAKER_04] I think, I think Habel thinks he did that in the last episode, but I would say that he did not go nearly far enough in order to make up for stuff like this. You know, you would have had to do basically like, oh, everything I just told you was kind of wrong. Let's go back from the beginning. He doesn't do that. He doesn't, he doesn't, like, he does not overcome the mountain of nonsense that he's built for himself at any point during this series. Had he done so, I, we would have, I don't know if we would have done the episode.

[00:45:34] [SPEAKER_04] I don't know if we'd be talking about it right now. We might just be like, well, okay. You know, but he doesn't. So, I don't know. I, I, rash lifestyle. And, and it's just, again, it's just such nonsense. And I just also don't feel like he talked to anybody. Like, did you go to Port Huron and ask people about this? Like, did you talk to anyone who was in the know? Can I talk about the 80s thing?

[00:45:55] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah, sure.

[00:45:55] [SPEAKER_04] Really quickly? Okay. You know, this is one of those things, maybe some of you will be thinking I'm nitpicking, but to me this kind of underscores what we're talking about here. At one point he says the following. Every era is characterized by its own unique hallmarks, and the 1980s were no exception.

[00:46:15] [SPEAKER_04] Brash and flamboyant, the 80s serve as a watershed decade, bridging the idealism, innocence, and political activism of the 60s and 70s with the slick, innovative, greed-is-good mentality of the late 20th century. Undeniably, a decade defined by excess. First of all, holy cliches. And also, the idealism and innocence of the 1970s? What? Okay. Then he follows up with this.

[00:46:44] [SPEAKER_04] The 80s witnessed monumental shifts across economic, political, social, and cultural landscapes. Areas impacted included music, entertainment, technology, and innovation, among a host of others. Word salad, word salad, word salad. He explicitly does the podcaster cliché thing where you list, like, what was hot on the radio back when the time period we're talking about, which I have come to hate. Because everyone does it, and no one seems to use it effectively, which is to say, what does that say about the era?

[00:47:13] [SPEAKER_04] What does that say about the culture we're talking about? Just like, here was what was on Billboard Top 100. Who cares? He talks about 80s stars in terms of music like Madonna and Poison and Metallica. And I just want to, I just want to, like, he talks about Kenzu being so different because he liked rock and roll. And he liked to have his hair long. And he liked wearing black. And then he's talking about, you know, and he had a lot of sex, right? He got laid like crazy.

[00:47:41] [SPEAKER_04] And, like, acts like how everyone rejected him for that. He was so different for that. And then he, like, lists these musical acts. Madonna being an overtly sexual musical act. Poison, which they were singing, you know, big hair. Hair band singing about partying and the rock and roll lifestyle. Metallica, it's kind of an aggressive sound back then. Kind of a thrash metal thing. So, he's, like, saying this guy is such an aberration.

[00:48:08] [SPEAKER_04] And it's like, yeah, if we were talking about the 1950s, sure. Yeah, that would be different. The 1930s, yeah, he'd be totally alien to them. But it's like, he's like, this guy is such an outlier. And then he's, like, talking about the cultural zeitgeist, which is, like, very much rock and roll, fun, party, sex, you know? I guess it's just, like, the shallowness of this. Like, where he's almost contradicting his own narrative with some of this.

[00:48:36] [SPEAKER_04] And I just want to point out, I'm not trying to, again, I don't know how this got made on so many levels. Like, on a, like, fundamental level. But also, I don't know what the processes were. If you, like me, hear a sentence like, The 80s witnessed monumental shifts across economic, political, social, and cultural landscapes. And you think artificial intelligence. You're not alone. I'm just going to say that. I, I'm not stating that they used AI in this. I'm just asking, did AI write this?

[00:49:06] [SPEAKER_04] See, see what I'm doing there? I'm, I'm insinuating something without literally saying it. We're going to be getting into a lot of that.

[00:49:12] [SPEAKER_02] Yes, I'll note for the record, a lot of people have made the observation that much of this sounds like it was done by AI. I think it's a pretty obvious observation to make, frankly, because it's really awkwardly written.

[00:49:23] [SPEAKER_04] But it's like, says nothing.

[00:49:25] [SPEAKER_02] And it says nothing. It's like, it's like, it's like these. He, he has denied it. So if you place a lot of value on his word and his personal integrity, then maybe you can walk away thinking, no, definitely no AI. If you don't place a lot of value on his honesty and his word because he's produced something that's full of lies and really disgusting things about rape victims, as we'll get to in a moment, maybe you're not so sure. I'm not so sure.

[00:49:53] [SPEAKER_02] All I will say for sure is it's really, really badly written. I will note he sent us a couple of emails throughout all of this, which I'm sure we're talking about more later. They also have that kind of AI feel. So maybe he's just a bad writer.

[00:50:06] [SPEAKER_04] It may be that it may like, listen, like, I'm not going to die on AI mountain. I don't have evidence that you use AI. I'm telling you like this. It has that airy say nothing quality of AI. But that also can be the mark of somebody who's just like not a clear communicator. So I'm not going to like say he definitely used it. It's just if your writing is so vague and shallow, monumental shifts across. Like, isn't that every era you have shifts across those various aspects of society? Like, I just like, what are you saying? What are you saying?

[00:50:35] [SPEAKER_04] Like, you're not saying anything. I hate this kind of pseudo academic nonsense. You know, I don't know. Whatever. Let's move on. So, yeah, I think one significant problem with this for me is I feel that Habel has a penchant for not just putting his thumb on the scale. He's putting his whole hand on the scale. He's putting all of his weight on the scale. And that doesn't end with just whitewashing convicted murderer Temujin Kenzu, who's also been credibly accused of rape multiple times.

[00:51:05] [SPEAKER_04] He talks about, oh, I was so like the guards at the prison when I went to visit Temujin Kenzu were so freaked out. And they wanted to know if I felt safe. And I felt, you know, totally safe. And, you know, and once someone is convicted of a serious crime, the presumption of innocence vanishes forever, never to be regained. Like, yeah, that's how that works. You're convicted. Like, it's like, oh, isn't that awful that we think these guys who got convicted of murder are guilty? It's like, like what?

[00:51:34] [SPEAKER_04] It's like this just I don't know, like this like well of sympathy that is just totally misplaced. So is this where we get into his discussion of the victim in this case, the actual victim, Scott Macklem? OK, let's see what he has to say about him.

[00:51:49] [SPEAKER_00] Scott, a sophomore at SC4 in the fall semester of 1986, was a member of a powerful and influential Michigan family. The son of well-respected Crosswell, Michigan mayor and beloved civil servant Gary Macklem, Scott and his brother Jeffrey had spent their entire young lives in the small farming community of around 2000 residents located northwest of Port Huron.

[00:52:13] [SPEAKER_04] Oh, my gosh. OK, so let's talk about this.

[00:52:16] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah, one of their theses is that Scott Macklem was involved in drugs or something. And that's not true. No evidence for that. Team Kinsu, the Kinsu cult, they've been busily scraping the bottom of the barrel for decades trying to find evidence that that is true. Found nothing.

[00:52:37] [SPEAKER_02] But the thesis is he was involved in something really bad and the police didn't want to investigate it because they were afraid of upsetting this really, really powerful family.

[00:52:50] [SPEAKER_04] And note the phrasing, note the dishonest phrasing, powerful Michigan family. Now, Habel can hide behind the fact that, yes, the Macklems did live in Michigan and therefore they are a Michigan family. But what that frames them as, no pun intended, is that they are powerful within Michigan, within the entire state, that these are people who are at the top of the list when we're talking about big families.

[00:53:17] [SPEAKER_04] They're up there with, you know, the automobile titans and like, I don't know, like the governor. I mean, like, what are we talking about here? And then at the same sentence, in the same paragraph, rather, he's also noting that they are from a small farming community of 2,000 residents. So nothing he's saying here is necessarily directly inaccurate, but it is how powerful are these people?

[00:53:41] [SPEAKER_04] Like, I think it would be fair to say that the Macklems were, you know, like well known and liked within Croswell. That's fair. But that's not being a powerful Michigan family where you're calling the shots. But again, it's not just about like clunky and inaccurate and misleading framing and phrasing. It's then he's using this to draw conclusions about the case, which he does repeatedly in this series.

[00:54:10] [SPEAKER_04] You know, that basically, I mean, I'm just going to spoil it for you, that the Macklems were so powerful that they put so much pressure on police to just get anybody that they ended up convicting a man wrongfully. Like, they're not. Gary Macklem was a state farm insurance agent. What are we talking about? Like, he like had the, you know, title of mayor that that's not he's not a political kingmaker.

[00:54:38] [SPEAKER_04] Croswell is not like the intersection of where power is exchanged in Michigan. Any claims about that are, are, are ludicrous. They're ludicrous. And again, I don't know how someone like Hable can, you know, have somebody write or write himself a set like a graph like this.

[00:54:58] [SPEAKER_04] And in one, you know, side being like they're so powerful and the next kind of describing where they're from and not, not seeing, hey, there needs to be a bridge belt between these two concepts for this to make sense. It's kind of the category of things you think about for more than five seconds that don't make any sense. Like, I don't know. It's I don't know. It's like, don't let the facts get in the way of a good narrative. Right. You know, if this gives a reason for him to be wrongfully convicted, let's put it in no matter what harm it causes to the victim's family.

[00:55:28] [SPEAKER_04] Who cares about that? All right. In the next clip, we're actually going to give Hable some props or like note that we think that there was a very good point in here for him that he could have. Maybe expanded upon. But what's the problem here, Kevin?

[00:55:44] [SPEAKER_02] He overstates.

[00:55:46] [SPEAKER_04] Yes. This is another big problem. You know, sometimes you have a good point, but it's like you can't leave well enough alone and then it ends up backfiring because you're overstating it to the max. And what could have just been a good point then becomes totally inaccurate. So let's let's talk about this. This is about one of the witnesses in the parking lot, a man who ultimately identified Temujin Kenzu as the person he saw. This is Renni Gobine, I believe. And this is Hable talking about him.

[00:56:16] [SPEAKER_00] When initially asked to describe the vehicle, Gobine maintained it was a foreign-made compact hatchback style vehicle, light tan in color. In subsequent interviews, he would change this description to a Ford Escort station wagon, which suspiciously matched an anonymous tip the police had received. Admitting he couldn't really see the driver's face, Gobine would later testify that he'd mentally noted the license plate number.

[00:56:42] [SPEAKER_02] Okay, so I think there are reasons for the car description changing. But even with that said, I think that's a fair point to bring up. Where did Mr. Gobine say that he couldn't see the face of the driver?

[00:56:58] [SPEAKER_02] When I look at the initial police report of his interview, he's describing the guy behind the wheel, a white male approximately 25 years of age, wearing a dark blue ski mask, which is trimmed and red around the mouth. It was pulled up over the top of the suspect's forehead. Subject was wearing a dark green army jacket. It sounds to me like he's describing the guy's face. And of course, in court, he says, yes, I saw the guy's face well enough. I can identify him.

[00:57:27] [SPEAKER_02] He identified him as Temujin Kenzu. So why are you saying that he couldn't see the guy's face? What's what's where does that come from?

[00:57:35] [SPEAKER_04] And the only thing I'm trying to like really give Habel the benefit of the doubt here, which I don't feel like he deserves, but I'm trying to. The only thing I can think of is it's some kind of reference to him only seeing the person driving away for a number of seconds. Right. Like it's not like he was observing him directly for five minutes or something. You know, in which case, just say that. Don't twist it to what you want it to be. Right. Yeah. Like, again.

[00:58:04] [SPEAKER_04] These I mean, I don't know. It's like, why? Like, why do all of the errors, overstatements, misstatements, why do they only go in one direction?

[00:58:15] [SPEAKER_02] Because it's a fundamentally dishonest show that is designed to get Mr. Habel's dear friend Temujin Kenzu out of prison because he says that's his goal.

[00:58:24] [SPEAKER_04] That is his goal. Never, never, never walks that back. You know, and certainly when you know that that's his goal and you listen to this show, you can tell that that's his goal. Once you know that it is not subtle. Again, we acknowledge, hey, it's a valid issue. It's a valid statement. It's a valid concern to talk about issues with any of these witnesses. That's fine.

[00:58:51] [SPEAKER_04] We do not disparage anyone who wants to do that. Do that all day long. Just talk about it accurately.

[00:58:59] [SPEAKER_02] Why don't you play the next clip?

[00:59:01] [SPEAKER_04] All right. To set up this clip, this is when we're going back to Scott's day. And again, I think this highlights how little Aaron Habel actually knows the case.

[00:59:13] [SPEAKER_00] In hindsight, it seems strange that he was carrying his gym bag considering he had already clearly missed his 8 a.m. class.

[00:59:20] [SPEAKER_02] There's nothing strange about that. Again, I think the implication is, oh, what was in that gym bag? Maybe drugs? I don't know. It's ridiculous. This is one of those little mysteries that could easily have been cleared up if this Habel character actually knew the case.

[00:59:37] [SPEAKER_02] Because the thing is, within the police report, the gym teacher, Scott's gym teacher, says that if a student misses the 8 a.m. class, they could go to the next gym class an hour later. So he was clearly on his way to take a makeup gym class. And he parked in a spot where he could get to that gym class very quickly.

[01:00:02] [SPEAKER_04] It's like, this isn't a mystery that needed to be solved. And I'm not trying to begrudge people making minor mistakes. If this was the only thing he did wrong in this series, okay, fine. Anyone can make a mistake. But it's on top of all this other stuff. And frankly, I don't think he knows this case at all. I think he knows what he's been fed. And this is something that if you actually just read the entire police file, it jumps out at you.

[01:00:31] [SPEAKER_04] And I just think this guy was too lazy to actually read everything. I don't think he read the court transcripts. I also don't think he read the investigative files. I think he read what he was told to read.

[01:00:44] [SPEAKER_02] I think so, too. Prior to releasing our first episodes on the case, we did reach out to Team Kenzu. And I was honest. I said, hey, I think this guy is guilty. But give me what you got to convince me otherwise. And Herb Belzer sent me a list of sources heavily tilted towards the defense side of the ledger. And I think every single source he sent me is something that is cited by Mr. Habel during this program.

[01:01:09] [SPEAKER_02] I don't think he ever looked at something that contradicted this one particular narrative.

[01:01:16] [SPEAKER_04] No. I don't think he did either. I think he looked at what he was supposed to.

[01:01:21] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah.

[01:01:22] [SPEAKER_04] And, again, I don't understand why you're even in this business if you have that little curiosity.

[01:01:28] [SPEAKER_02] Tell me about this empty box of ammunition found at the crime scene.

[01:01:32] [SPEAKER_04] Oh, goodness. This ammunition box, this empty ammunition box, he claims, you know, is found at the scene. He even determines it was at the crime scene at one point. In reality, this was found in a different parking lot hours later.

[01:01:51] [SPEAKER_04] It just kind of, like, makes me laugh because, you know, in any Innocence Grift podcast that if that had come, if somehow that had come in as evidence against somebody, they'd be crying foul and saying the scene wasn't secured. It was hours later. It wasn't even in the same parking lot. How do we know that's related? And it's like, but no. But in this case, you know, it must be every piece of trash in the local vicinity must be really relevant. I want to point something out to everybody. For those who may not know, Scott was murdered on November 5th.

[01:02:20] [SPEAKER_04] Ten days later, ten days later, firearm deer hunting season opens in Michigan. To claim that there's a nexus there, I think, is vastly overstating it. It's vastly overstating it. And again, it's his right. It's Habel's right to make a big deal of what he wants to make a big deal of. Fine. But don't be describing it as found at the crime scene. He's talking about this like it's the only piece of forensic evidence.

[01:02:47] [SPEAKER_04] In reality, its relation to this case is extremely tenuous at best. If you want to make a case for that, fine. But do not state, do not imply that it was like found like it's not even found in the same parking lot. If we're being generous, right? If we're being generous and saying the parking lot, the entire parking lot is the crime scene, it's not found there. Are we saying the whole campus is the crime scene? Are we saying all of Port Huron is the crime scene? Like what are we talking about?

[01:03:16] [SPEAKER_04] Like do your friggin research, man. Like I don't. How hard is this? Okay. Also, like, you know, he repeatedly and in interviews with other people, Habel's big refrain is there were no fingerprints. There were no fingerprints. You know, there was no forensic evidence. What we're talking about is not a knife fight. What we're talking about is not a strangulation case.

[01:03:44] [SPEAKER_04] What we're talking is an incident where one person shot another person with a shotgun and then quickly afterwards drove away. Where would the fingerprints be exactly? I mean, to me, we have to look at the crime. Okay. And this is why, I mean, as far as I know, I mean, geez, Habel's the expert, right?

[01:04:11] [SPEAKER_04] I don't think under Michigan law there's anything saying that in order to prove murder, you need to have fingerprints at the crime scene. Right? No. He's putting these arbitrary little stupid things that he thinks sounds good on this case. And they're just totally like antithetical to how you should approach anything. You know? There's no fingerprints. You must acquit. No, we don't have to. There's other evidence. They presented it to a jury. The defense got their chance to try to knock it down. They didn't.

[01:04:40] [SPEAKER_04] And he was convicted. End of story. Like, where would the fingerprints be? Who else is tied to the scene by forensics? Anybody? In 1986, right? He's putting these bizarre standards on it. It's like he wants to just tear it down at every angle to a point where it's like becoming irrational, I think. Now, can I talk about this quote? This quote just sends me.

[01:05:04] [SPEAKER_03] Do it.

[01:05:05] [SPEAKER_04] This sends me into orbit. I'm flying out of the atmosphere. Here we go.

[01:05:09] [SPEAKER_00] The pressure to quickly solve the crime was already enormous. It was an election year, and the victim was a member of a very prominent family in the region. Scott's father, Gary, and his wife, Patricia, were highly regarded in the community, as was the entire Macklin family. Oh, my goodness.

[01:05:27] [SPEAKER_02] Here's the thing, Anya. I suspect you know this. I suspect our listeners know this. Police always want to solve murders. It's not like, oh, this guy's prominent. We better solve this murder. They want to solve all murders. And this is not a prominent family. Again, they want to say he's a prominent family because they think that somehow helps their argument that Mr. Kinzu was framed.

[01:05:56] [SPEAKER_02] Which, again, if you think about it for more than a few seconds, it's complete nonsense. It doesn't make any sense. If anything, I would think, if I was trying to be as conspiratorial as possible, I would think that, oh, if a really prominent person got murdered, the police might work extra hard to make sure that the case is extra buttoned up and extra strong. I don't think, oh, this is a really rich, prominent, powerful family.

[01:06:26] [SPEAKER_02] Let's just do a slapped-ass job.

[01:06:28] [SPEAKER_04] Yeah, so you're saying they're trying to have their cake and eat it, too, by saying it was really sloppy and bad investigation, but also it was the most important thing the police were doing. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, no, that's a really good point. I never even thought of that. To me, it's like adding insult to injury to this family that lost their son and brother because it's then basically victim-blaming them because they're so powerful. They're pull with the police. And they're not prominent, okay?

[01:06:56] [SPEAKER_04] Like, within the tiny town of Croswell, sure. Within—and also, Pable doesn't seem to, like, realize on some level that Port Huron is not Croswell. These are two separate places. They're in different counties. Sandaloc County is where Croswell is. St. Clair County is where Port Huron is. Like, you know, to act as if the mayor of Croswell has the Port Huron Police Department under his thumb is silly.

[01:07:25] [SPEAKER_04] And if you're going to make a silly claim, you should have a silly amount of evidence to back it up, you know? Like, you shouldn't just be saying this because it's what your buddy Timu is telling you. You should be saying it because you've talked to a bunch of people and they all back it up and they're willing to go on the record about it. Like, he's just repeating these, like, cliches from the case that don't make any sense. And I want to—here's the thing.

[01:07:50] [SPEAKER_04] I guess he thinks that, like, I don't know, that prosecutor Robert Cleland is some kind of, like, time lord where he has a TARDIS and would be able to go back in time to make this work for him politically. Because Scott was literally killed on November 5th. So this was an election year.

[01:08:10] [SPEAKER_02] The election was over.

[01:08:11] [SPEAKER_04] The election was over, sir. What was—what was he going to do? I've heard it so many times. Cleland was running for attorney general. Cleland was running for attorney general. In 1986, in Michigan, do you know nothing about Michigan politics? Apparently not. Well, let's just say a Republican was not going to win that race that year, okay? That is what they call—like, that's like a sacrificial run.

[01:08:40] [SPEAKER_04] That's like, hey, I'm going to do the party a favor and put my name out there. I do not expect to win, okay? Cleland being a Republican in that race, that was not a close race. That was not something he was going to win. That was not something I would imagine he would have expected to win. But they need somebody to run as a Republican, and I guess he was the one who was willing to do that. But people make that out like, oh, that was on the line.

[01:09:09] [SPEAKER_04] You know, it's like you don't know anything. You don't know anything. You've not done any basic research.

[01:09:14] [SPEAKER_02] So, Ani, we were talking earlier about the witness, Rene Goldbein, and of course, he got hypnotized. Let's hear from Mr. Habel on that topic.

[01:09:22] [SPEAKER_00] I'm sure it'll be really, really interesting. He would later be hypnotized by a psychology professor in an attempt to recall more specific details of what he'd witnessed that morning. Keeping in mind that he was hypnotized by a faculty member and not a medical professional, any identification resulting from this hypnosis session should have been considered improper and summarily disregarded.

[01:09:44] [SPEAKER_02] I've got some good news for Mr. Habel. It was disregarded. There was a lot of back and forth on that point. And the judge in the case said anything that he said prior to the hypnosis could be brought into the trial. Anything after the hypnosis, any part of his recall that was affected by the hypnosis could not be brought in. So, Mr. Habel, your concerns are meritless.

[01:10:13] [SPEAKER_02] It's already been taken care of by the adults in the room decades ago.

[01:10:18] [SPEAKER_04] Don't worry. They're that efficient and prompt.

[01:10:21] [SPEAKER_02] And also, he says, oh, he was hypnotized by someone who wasn't a medical professional. Even if you're hypnotized by a medical professional, that could be a problem.

[01:10:30] [SPEAKER_04] I mean, I'm going to go further. I don't like hypnosis in any setting, whether it's done by – I've seen cases where it's done by the police, medical professionals, some local carny. I don't like it. You know, I don't –

[01:10:44] [SPEAKER_02] In fairness, though, I did get you to marry me via hypnosis.

[01:10:48] [SPEAKER_04] Ooh, now it all comes – no, you didn't. You just threw your own little charms.

[01:10:53] [SPEAKER_02] Let's talk about one thing that Mr. Habel says that might actually be defamatory and also quite stupid.

[01:10:59] [SPEAKER_00] Yay! Further, it's not a stretch to believe that as a criminal justice major, Gobine was likely seeking to inject himself into the investigation in hopes of impressing and ingratiating himself with the Port Huron Police Department.

[01:11:13] [SPEAKER_02] So let's unpack this because it's profoundly stupid.

[01:11:47] [SPEAKER_02] We should all know. If he's alive just because he thinks it might help his career, then he's a terrible person. It's defamatory to say that with no evidence other than your stupid hunch and your lack of understanding of how law enforcement officers get hired.

[01:12:03] [SPEAKER_04] Yeah. Yeah. And again, these are the same exact talking points we've heard from Team Kenzu for years. So I don't feel like Habel even came into this and looked at some of those claims and said, well, I don't really find this convincing, but maybe this one's more convinced. Like, I don't think he was discerning at all about any of this. It's just like whatever they told him, he barfed back out. It's just the endless regurgitation of these talking points that don't make much sense when you look at them.

[01:12:31] [SPEAKER_04] If you want to also, I just don't believe in this. Like, if you want to say, oh, Renny Gobine, you know, here's the reasons that he's problematic as a witness. That's fine. I mean, whatever. We've talked about the reasons why we feel that Dyer, Shorman and Manali in the karate studio are problematic. But you don't need to resort to bizarre personal attacks. Like, I don't I don't feel like any of the karate studio witnesses are lying at all. I think they're probably honest people, nice people.

[01:12:59] [SPEAKER_04] Like, there's nothing wrong with them, in my opinion. I just feel like there's certain things that I can point to that say this makes me not really consider what they're saying to be likely true. I believe they believe what they're saying to be true.

[01:13:13] [SPEAKER_02] Why don't we talk about how Mr. Habel frames Crystal's sister, Tracy?

[01:13:18] [SPEAKER_04] This is this is disgusting. I'm sorry.

[01:13:20] [SPEAKER_00] OK, yeah, let's let's go into this. Tracy, 16 at the time, would be the first to suggest that an ex-boyfriend of Crystal's may have been responsible for the shooting. He wore a leather jacket, sang in a rock band and listened to loud music.

[01:13:34] [SPEAKER_02] This is the technique I mentioned earlier, where he's not saying that Tracy suspected him because he wore a leather jacket. But he is creating that impression with the way he phrases it.

[01:13:47] [SPEAKER_02] The fact of the matter is, the reason Tracy had concerns about Mr. Kinzu, who of course is Mr. Habel's dear friend, is because of things like Tracy would see the bruises on her sister's neck after Mr. Kinzu strangled her. She saw her sister change over the course of her relationship with Mr. Kinzu.

[01:14:09] [SPEAKER_04] The point was she became withdrawn. She was avoiding her family. She was suddenly extremely flaky, wouldn't show up when she was supposed to, was clearly spiraling.

[01:14:21] [SPEAKER_02] This is why she suspected him, not because of any nonsense, but oh, a leather jacket. He's doing this. This is a technique he's not out and out saying. That's why she suspected him. But he's certainly creating that impression. And he's doing it because he wants to make Crystal's family look as stupid and as backward as possible. And that is so dishonest and so wrong. These people have been wronged enough.

[01:14:45] [SPEAKER_02] At some point, people should say stop and stop going after this family. There were legitimate reasons to suspect this man. And Tracy was quite correct to point out that this was a man who was physically abusive, had nothing to do with a leather jacket or singing in a rock band. These are not backward people. They had legitimate reasons. And shame on you, Mr.

[01:15:12] [SPEAKER_02] Habel, for going after Crystal's family.

[01:15:15] [SPEAKER_04] It's the classic innocence grift technique, you know, attack the real victims and make them look like backwards. You know, oh, we're scared of rock and roll. That's the devil's music. This guy and his acolytes want everyone to think that this whole portion of Michigan is like the town from Footloose, where they're so, you know, we're just so threatened by a guy in a leather jacket in the 1980s that we're going to like freak out and accuse him of murder. That's what they want you to think.

[01:15:45] [SPEAKER_04] And that's simply we've seen nothing. We've seen nothing. We've seen nothing in our reporting and in talking to people who are from that area to back that up. Okay. and it is such an overstatement. And if you want to talk about character evidence coming in through Crystal at trial, that's a conversation to be had. It's a conversation. It's an issue that's been adjudicated extensively.

[01:16:07] [SPEAKER_02] It's a conversation that's been had hundreds of times.

[01:16:10] [SPEAKER_04] But this goes beyond it. This is just bullshit.

[01:16:13] [SPEAKER_02] Bring something new to the table and stop attacking the victim's family, you asshole. At the end of the episode, Mr. Habel visits Mr. Kinzu in prison and the fawning goes off the charts. If Anya talked about one of our interview subjects in this way, I would be concerned. Play the clip.

[01:16:31] [SPEAKER_00] As the man known today as Temujin Kinzu walks into the room, my initial impression is that he looks like an action star of an early 1980s-era martial arts movie. At age 61, with long dark hair, cascading past his shoulders, and a hint of scruffy facial hair, he appears younger than his years. Despite the host of health issues from which I know he suffers, he appears vibrant and healthy. My overall impression is that of a person who is calm, centered,

[01:17:00] [SPEAKER_00] and largely at peace. He seems to radiate an inner serenity, tranquility, and composure that completely transcends the walls of the prison.

[01:17:11] [SPEAKER_02] cascading hair like an action hero. What a swell fella. It's embarrassing. It is embarrassing.

[01:17:20] [SPEAKER_04] I don't know how an adult person has this happen to them and then publicly says stuff like that. Is there no internal sense of shame or guardrails that prevent you from making an utter fool of yourself? Like, I don't... Like, why? How?

[01:17:44] How?

[01:17:45] [SPEAKER_04] How does this happen? Is no one around able to be like, ooh, you know, okay. Maybe we should dial this portion back a little bit. It's embarrassing.

[01:17:55] [SPEAKER_02] Were there stuff you wanted to read from this or do you want to go to the next clip?

[01:17:59] [SPEAKER_04] We forgot to say it in the election part, but I just want to say, like, he also indicates at one point that basically the people of Croswell called out for blood because they lost Gary Macklem as a mayor as a result of this too, which is, again, that's not where the murder happened. That's a different place. I just kept on writing in portions like that where he was slobbering all over Kenzu, get a room. Because it feels like... It feels like this isn't something we should even be hearing.

[01:18:28] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. I used the crude term blowjob earlier to describe his treatment of Mr. Kenzu. I would be embarrassed if someone wrote about me this way.

[01:18:37] [SPEAKER_04] I would too. I would too. And who's it for? Who's it for? It's for people who don't know the case so they can come away liking Kenzu through Hable. And it's for Kenzu. Those are the two intended targets. I would actually switch them in terms of who's more important to Hable. But, oh my gosh, this is one thing that bothered me about... I'm going to read this quote. We talk at length about his passion for martial arts, his skills,

[01:19:07] [SPEAKER_04] and his training, as well as his deep love and respect for Japanese culture as a whole. Okay, what's the problem with that? Nothing wrong with loving Japanese culture. My problem with this is there's so many things within this case that Team Kenzu, which I would put Hable firmly in that camp, by the way.

[01:19:24] [SPEAKER_02] I might disagree and say Hable is so extreme. He might be in that more extreme inner circle of Team Kenzu, which is the Kenzu cult. Because he's saying Kenzu is the light of the world.

[01:19:37] [SPEAKER_04] He's the light of my life. You're the reason in my life. You're the inspiration. Like, that song starts blasting whenever he walks into Macomb County. Correctional. I think the thing I was going to say, though, is, you know, I feel like so many things about this case are people talking out of both sides of their mouth, where on one hand, and we're going to see this in the trial coverage, on one hand,

[01:20:04] [SPEAKER_04] Crystal is this naive farm girl rube who is conflating ninja movies with life, like some kind of modern day Salem witch trial gal. You know, how dare she? She railroaded an innocent man on the one hand. That's ninjas that aren't real life. What are you talking about? On the other hand, it's like this guy's obsessed with ninjas. Like, he's obsessed with Japanese culture. He's as Caucasian as you and I, Kevin,

[01:20:33] [SPEAKER_04] and gave himself this fake, weird Asian name. You know, like, that's normal. And just appropriates various Asian cultures all the time. And is obsessed with ninja weapons, martial arts, all these things. So it's like they acknowledge that and that it's important to him, but then they act like the ninja stuff is so ridiculous. They've mocked this rape victim for decades for pointing out stuff

[01:21:03] [SPEAKER_04] that they themselves know to be true. And that's even when you don't even consider the factor that all these other women said, yeah, he told me the same stuff about the ninja council.

[01:21:15] [SPEAKER_02] You know, Anya, I'm beginning to suspect that some of these people on Team Kinza might not be good people.

[01:21:21] [SPEAKER_04] Yeah, I don't know. I don't know how you get swept up in this crap. What in somebody's psychological makeup would make them gravitate towards this? I don't know. I cannot begin to understand that. I feel like I have a lot of weird stuff and you have a lot of weird stuff and, like, we're not perfect people and, like, we're capable of being idiots and whatever. But I don't know how you get sucked in by a guy who is so overtly doing

[01:21:51] [SPEAKER_04] so many horrible things to people. I don't get that.

[01:21:54] [SPEAKER_00] Should we hit the next clip? Temujin is frank and seems upfront about his past transgressions. After learning of my plans for a podcast covering his case, he strenuously encourages me to delve into his early years with a pitiless eye for the truth. He appears to fully own his past and doesn't attempt to sugarcoat or downplay his responsibility for his current situation.

[01:22:19] [SPEAKER_04] Yeah. I guess sugarcoating and downplaying is Habel's job.

[01:22:24] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah, and also Team Kinzu often says, like, oh, Kinzu owns his past. But you never hear him say, oh, I raped a bunch of women and I'm sorry about it. You say, oh, yeah, when I was a kid, you know, I could be a little bit cocky.

[01:22:36] [SPEAKER_04] Well, let's listen to what he has to say about...

[01:22:39] [SPEAKER_02] Okay.

[01:22:39] [SPEAKER_04] Yeah, what... Okay, because honestly, in many ways, in many ways, I'm a big believer in acknowledging the harm you've caused is the first step to, you know, maybe actually becoming a better person. And that's a pretty... probably commonly held viewpoint. Like, if you want to get better, you have to acknowledge how you hurt other people. So, what does Kinzu think made him not such a great person in the past? Is he going to finally turn a new leaf,

[01:23:08] [SPEAKER_04] admit to raping, terrorizing, abusing, stalking, psychologically destroying, manipulating all these women and the men who were around them at the time? Let's find out.

[01:23:21] [SPEAKER_00] In hindsight, he truly wishes that he were a better person when he was young and expresses regret for his actions, although he adamantly and unequivocally denies guilt in the crime for which he is incarcerated. As we delve a bit deeper into his past, he acknowledges that while he is not using it as an excuse, his abusive early upbringing was certainly a factor in shaping his actions and behavior in his early 20s. He does believe, however, that his circumstances might have been different

[01:23:50] [SPEAKER_00] had he made other choices and he fully acknowledges his share of responsibility for his present situation. He freely admits he was a young, cocky, arrogant kid who thought he was the smartest guy in the room. An unapologetic womanizer, he juggled multiple concurrent relationships with trusting young women in his early 20s. Overconfident and egotistical, he bragged frequently about his martial arts skills. And while prior to his conviction, he was not suspected

[01:24:19] [SPEAKER_00] in any substantial criminal activity, he did have a somewhat checkered background of petty convictions for minor offenses, such as writing bad checks, engaging in fights, evading law enforcement, and parole violation. But those offenses fell far short of the crime he was convicted of, murder in the first degree, for which he currently sits behind bars.

[01:24:40] [SPEAKER_02] So what is he admitting to there, Anya? What is his bad behavior that he is owning with his pitiless eye?

[01:24:46] [SPEAKER_04] I'm itemizing it. One, he was cocky and arrogant as a young person. Two, he thought he was smart, maybe smarter than others. Three, he was womanizing, even when he was involved with women who trusted him. Doesn't say that he hurt them or anything, but women trusted him and he was womanizing. Four, he was egotistical. Five, he was overconfident, which is kind of the same thing as cocky, but okay. And six, you would brag about his martial arts skill. I don't know about you, Kevin,

[01:25:16] [SPEAKER_04] but if I met a person who was doing all these things, I would not think they were evil. I would not think that they were the worst person in the world and I would not, you know. A young man in his early 20s sleeping around being annoying personality-wise and bragging about something they feel they're good at, that's not someone I would necessarily really want to be friends with or hang around. They sound really annoying, but I wouldn't say that that's uniquely bad and I wouldn't even call them a bad person necessarily.

[01:25:46] [SPEAKER_04] I mean, certainly you shouldn't cheat on people. That's bad, but again, in the scheme of things, as far as like causing real pain and abusing people, it falls quite short of that. Would you agree?

[01:25:58] [SPEAKER_02] Yes.

[01:25:59] [SPEAKER_04] That is not the accountability one would want to see from an abuser, which is what he is. What he's done is abuse. What he's done is rape. What he's done is murdered a guy. But even if he doesn't want to own up to that, you know, there's a lot for him to own up to. What I think he's saying with the womanizing is like, I got with a lot of chicks and then they'd get mad at me and lie about how I raped them. I think that's what the womanizing is supposed to cover. You know? And I think that it's really fascinating

[01:26:29] [SPEAKER_04] that in this section where Aaron, a Habel, of the merciless eye toward this guy's past, is literally making excuses for him as he goes. This is the section where it's like, all right, no holds barred, Habel. Hit him with your best shot. What is he owning up to? Not only does he not ask him questions of like, well, you've been accused of rape. Can you address that? Listen, he can ask him and he could deny it. I would still give Habel

[01:26:58] [SPEAKER_04] credit for asking him, you know, for pushing him a little bit. Well, people say it was worse than womanizing. They say it was like non-consensual womanizing. What do you think of that? Well, you know, get him on the record. He refuses to do that because he doesn't want to offend his friend. There's not only that, but then there's this thing at the end where he's like, well, that all fell short of murder. Okay, yeah, but rape and assault is kind of closer to murder. So, yeah, not addressing any of that, I guess.

[01:27:26] [SPEAKER_02] And before we end our look at episode one, can you play this word salad clip near the end? I'm not even sure what he's trying to say here, but let's talk about it.

[01:27:38] [SPEAKER_04] My goodness.

[01:27:40] [SPEAKER_00] Yes, let's play this. Being a white male who resembles an early 80s action star who has been convicted of a murder does not resonate particularly well in the current political and socioeconomic climate. And, in today's world of alternative facts, the actual and undeniable truth is not necessarily perceived with the same importance as it has been in the past.

[01:28:04] [SPEAKER_02] I like to, I like to think, Anya, that I'm not a, I'm not a dumb guy. I don't, I'm not sure what he's even trying to say there. Is he saying that Temujin Kinzu has had a hard time because he's white?

[01:28:16] [SPEAKER_04] Kevin, as a white man, you know the white men have it the hardest, don't you?

[01:28:19] [SPEAKER_02] Right? Being a white male is so rough. Poor Timur Junkinzu. Alternative facts. What's he even trying to say here? Things like that, which might sound, oh, that sounds okay. But then you think of it from more than a second. This is why people think that this was written by AI.

[01:28:37] [SPEAKER_04] Yeah, because they're throwing around terms like socioeconomic climate and then, but like, what about it? Hey, Habel, what do you think is so hard for white men right now? I mean, like, honestly, like, I'm curious. I'm genuinely curious. You know, like, I'm not even, I just, I'm baffled. I'm baffled. I'm flummoxed.

[01:28:55] [SPEAKER_02] Well, certainly anytime the grocery store runs out of Mr. Pibb, I assume it's because I'm a white man. Yeah,

[01:29:01] [SPEAKER_04] I mean, it is. They want to keep you down. I mean, I don't know what Habel's politics are. And certainly, interestingly enough, this is a case that you have Republicans and Democrats working together, conservatives and liberals working together to get him out, but also to keep him incarcerated. So it's kind of one of those, like, I don't know, like, it's one of those cases where it kind of has a bipartisan split, bizarrely, on both sides. But, on the other hand, the reason I singled this out a little bit is not just to kind of make fun of it or dunk on him for saying this,

[01:29:31] [SPEAKER_04] but it's to note, like, Habel should be aware, if he's not, then that's his own failing, that Kenzu has a history of making extremely racist statements against Black people, against Hispanic people, right? I would qualify a lot of his, like, the level of his hatred of other groups as, like, rising to the level of what I feel

[01:30:00] [SPEAKER_04] is white supremacy. So, you know, if he wants to say, I've walked away from that, then okay. But he's never said that, so, I mean, like, maybe you should ask him about that. If Habel's repeating what Kenzu's saying here, in other words, why is he just parroting it instead of being like, well, why do you feel that way? You know, like...

[01:30:20] [SPEAKER_02] Mr. Habel doesn't like it when people talk about what kind of a person Mr. Kenzu is because he says his character is immaterial to whether or not he committed the crime. I don't believe Mr. Kenzu committed the crime because he is a bad man. I believe he is a bad man who committed this crime and the evidence shows that. And if you really don't want people to be talking about his character, then here is a hint, don't act like he's an angel. Because when you act like he is an angel, you're lying about

[01:30:50] [SPEAKER_02] who he is, and you're also diminishing the real experience of the many, many women who suffered at his hands. And by doing this, you are making his character an issue that needs to be addressed.

[01:31:01] [SPEAKER_04] That's exactly right. And I want to also point out that, you know, I feel like there's subtle implications in a lot of what Habel puts out there, and we see this again and again. I don't feel Habel has any theory of mind for people who think that this guy is guilty. And with statements like this of like, it's not popular to defend a white guy. That's not, we don't think he's guilty because he's white. Like, you know, it's like he's almost like, oh, the people who think he's guilty are all just too woke, you know? I mean, it's like,

[01:31:32] [SPEAKER_04] his race really doesn't have a lot to do with why I think he's guilty at all.

[01:31:38] [SPEAKER_02] He doesn't engage with anyone from the other side.

[01:31:41] [SPEAKER_04] Doesn't care.

[01:31:42] [SPEAKER_02] I think someone on Reddit I was reading said that Anya and I are the elephant in the room because he never acknowledges any of the issues we've raised. He never engages with us. At best, he'll take distorted versions of things we say and say, oh yeah, someone on Reddit said this. And oh, it's a controversial case. If this case is controversial, it is controversial because of Anya and myself. Because it's hard to believe this, but a little over a year ago before Anya and I started covering this case,

[01:32:11] [SPEAKER_02] everyone was convinced he was an angel who was innocent. If people don't believe that now, it's because of us. It is because of us. And I would think if I was covering a case where a lot of people's minds were changed because of the coverage of one particular podcast, I would want to really fully engage with what that podcast said. And he had no interest in doing that. Wouldn't even mention our name. His emails to us were condescending and passive aggressive. But let's move on to episode two. Let's do it.

[01:32:41] [SPEAKER_02] And let's start our coverage of episode two of this awful show by sharing something that he largely repeats from episode one, a smear of Crystal's sister, Tracy.

[01:32:51] [SPEAKER_00] Tracy had been the first to suggest to police that Crystal's ex-boyfriend, John Lamar, was likely responsible for the crime. Before reuniting with and getting engaged to her high school boyfriend, Crystal had dated Lamar that previous May and June, about six months before the killing. In the two short months the pair were together, Tracy had always sensed something unsettling about her sister's boyfriend. Not only did Lamar sing in a rock band, wear a lot of black clothing

[01:33:20] [SPEAKER_00] and sport leather jackets, but Tracy also told police that he'd beaten up another of Crystal's boyfriends, an allegation that turned out to be false.

[01:33:29] [SPEAKER_02] Again, I want to repeat that what he's doing here is a shameful attempt to attack the sister of a rape victim. He's acting like Tracy's number one concern was, oh my God, this guy sings in a rock band. He must be a killer. That is stupid. You are saying that Tracy is stupid and you are lying. You are lying, Mr. Habel. Tracy saw the bruises on her sister's neck. She had her own experiences with Mr. Kenzo.

[01:33:59] [SPEAKER_02] She knew who Mr. Kenzo was. Tracy was smarter than you, Mr. Habel, because she saw Mr. Kenzo as he was. She never once saw him as the light of the world. I think he wanted to talk about the false allegation.

[01:34:14] [SPEAKER_04] This is so disgusting to me. Like, you're going after the 16-year-old sister of a rape victim who, like, tried to make her look like this, you know, based on nothing. I don't know. I don't know why you do it. I don't know what makes people be like this, but it disgusts me. The thing I wanted to note was that it was a widely held rumor that we've heard from other people that Kenzo had beaten up one of Crystal's

[01:34:44] [SPEAKER_04] other boyfriends. We actually talked to one of Scott's friends who was the cousin of that boyfriend. That boyfriend has since died in a tragic accident. So, we know that story. It was going around. Tracy did nothing wrong by passing it on. And it was cleared up because ultimately it was found that Kenzo did not beat that man up. What happened was a group of Kenzo's friends kind of came up at him

[01:35:14] [SPEAKER_04] in a threatening way in a fast food parking lot and yelled at him, our friend's fucking your girl's brains out or something to that effect. Like, a very creepy and weird exchange. One could imagine that this guy felt troubled and disturbed by it. So, yeah, it wasn't a beating but he makes it out like she was just making up a story about him. And again, it was a telephone game where that had been around town and

[01:35:43] [SPEAKER_04] it got twisted but when you're giving police information in a case like this you're giving them what you have and then it's their job to run it down and see if there's anything to it. And in this case they did and there wasn't. But it's still kind of a troubling thing. And the fact that this Kenzu guy had all these acolytes as far as creepy young men going around yelling lewd things like this at people I think that speaks more to Kenzu's character than anything else. It's such an aptly named podcast in a way because so much of it is just trying to frame people he doesn't like

[01:36:12] [SPEAKER_04] as bad while framing a guy who's a really bad dude as wonderful.

[01:36:17] [SPEAKER_02] He's the light of the world!

[01:36:19] [SPEAKER_04] He's the light of the world! You know? Maybe one day the light will shine on Kevin and I and we'll just come onto this podcast and be like everything we said about Kenzu is wrong. We're Cathalians now and we're happier than ever. Gosh, can you imagine? That'd be scary. I mean, but like, but seriously, like I just don't think a defense of Kenzu or a podcast that ultimately acquits him I don't think it has to target people like Tracy and Crystal. I don't think that's necessary and I find it appalling.

[01:36:48] [SPEAKER_02] Because again, if you are honest, whether you believe Mr. Kenzu is guilty or innocent, I think you understand there were very legitimate reasons to suspect him that had nothing to do with his love of rock music.

[01:37:02] [SPEAKER_04] But then you don't get to do this whole story about the impossible murder. Then it's something a lot more nuanced and you don't get to have this smug, you know, oh, this is what's wrong with the criminal justice system. It's awful. You know, I'm a podcaster and I know better than all the judges. Like, you don't get to have this like little like high-handed nonsense, you know, and that's what he wants. That's the story he wants to tell. He wants to complain about how this isn't anything like The Fugitive. No one jumped off a waterfall. We're not all

[01:37:32] [SPEAKER_04] on the run from Tommy Lee Jones. I mean, like, what are we, like, what are we doing?

[01:37:37] [SPEAKER_02] There's another thing I found really, really stupid I wanted to share.

[01:37:40] [SPEAKER_00] Surprisingly, no one seemed to find it unusual that an alleged ninja warrior would choose a shotgun as his weapon of choice rather than the more exotic weaponry commonly associated with the ninja culture, such as a sword or Japanese throwing stars.

[01:37:56] [SPEAKER_02] Gotcha. That is really profoundly stupid. It is stupid to assume that just because you fancy yourself a ninja, you have to exclusively commit your crimes using ninja weapons. that's like saying, oh, the Riddler from Batman, he can't be involved in this crime because there's no riddles. It's dumb. It's dumb. I've made no secret on this program I love fish. I love fish sandwiches. Probably my favorite food in the world.

[01:38:26] [SPEAKER_02] That doesn't mean I exclusively eat fish morning, noon, or night because I recognize, oh, for this particular occasion, maybe it's more appropriate to eat something else. A loser, wannabe ninja does not have to use only ninja weapons if he finds another weapon better suited to his needs. And keep in mind, Mr. Kinzu is well known as a physical coward towards other men. The people he beats up and abuses are women. So,

[01:38:56] [SPEAKER_02] if you're a physical coward, you're going to use a gun. And it's also odd he doesn't mention that Crystal testified that Mr. Kinzu owned a gun and the gun she described matched the description of the shotgun. And also, I want to bring up in Mr. Kinzu's current divorce, he criticized Paula Kinzu by stating, quote, five years later, you are in terrible shape. You do not train in self-defense. You do not shoot. Obviously, Mr. Kinzu

[01:39:26] [SPEAKER_02] places a value on shooting guns. Jesus Christ.

[01:39:33] [SPEAKER_04] I love it when you get all mad.

[01:39:35] [SPEAKER_02] Well, you got something to look forward to in a few minutes. Oh, I know. Something's coming up that makes me furious.

[01:39:42] [SPEAKER_04] Yeah, that is true. And, yeah, I agree with you. It's this, like, overstated, I think you said it best, the Riddler being this costume villain who does themes. Do we live in that world? Do we live in Gotham? Is everyone doing little costumes now? That doesn't make any sense. We know he's threatened other people with weapons, too. Like, I don't know. It's, it's, it's stupid.

[01:40:06] [SPEAKER_02] So now, Mr. Habel brings up G, who is Kinzu's first wife. She gave her only interview on Mr. Kinzu on our program. Mr. Habel does not appear to have listened to that because, of course, why would he want to hear the perspective of a person who knew and lived with his dear friend, Mr. Kinzu? Now, G has a rather distinct first name and Mr. Habel used it on, on the program. And G was very candid with us

[01:40:36] [SPEAKER_02] that she does not want her name out there. And the reason for that is she has been harassed mercilessly by supporters of Mr. Kinzu, by Mr. Kinzu's acolytes who stupidly see him as the light of the world and so therefore demonize her. So she wants to be as anonymous as possible to spare herself this harassment.

[01:41:03] [SPEAKER_04] They not only stalked her, they stalked her small daughter, Lena, for years.

[01:41:07] [SPEAKER_02] One thing that was very upsetting to her, David Sanders once gave her contact information to Mr. Kinzu.

[01:41:14] [SPEAKER_04] David Sanders, the person that they cite throughout this god-awful podcast as the person who, you know, is doing a lot with this proving innocence sham nonprofit.

[01:41:23] [SPEAKER_02] So because Mr. Habel didn't listen to our interview, he doesn't appear to have been aware of that. We were horrified by it. We wrote to him and he, to some credit, I guess, he removed her name and changed it to G and you will hear that edit in this clip. It's to his credit that he did that.

[01:41:46] [SPEAKER_04] We appreciated that.

[01:41:47] [SPEAKER_02] But the fact remains that he named a rape victim without her consent when her privacy has already been breached and threatened by other members of the Kenzu cult.

[01:41:55] [SPEAKER_04] I appreciate that he changed it, but it's one of those things where it really speaks to the sloppiness of this project and the lack of knowledge beyond what Kenzu's telling him that it happened in the first place. Again, I'm not trying to sound like unforgiving. People do make mistakes, but the problem here is all the mistakes run in one direction, and the mistakes in this situation led to something pretty bad. It's pretty standard in media to not name rape victims

[01:42:25] [SPEAKER_04] unless they kind of name themselves. And again, I can see how this happens when you're only getting it from one side, but that's why you should not allow that to happen before you publicize things.

[01:42:40] [SPEAKER_02] So why don't you play this clip? This clip also has some special pleading for Mr. Kenzu.

[01:42:46] [SPEAKER_00] Oh, goodness. Sometime between 1982 and 1983, Fred moved to Washington State where he met a woman who I'll call G. Before long, the couple found themselves welcoming a child together. However, Fred lost his job and as a consequence, wrote some overdraft checks in desperation to be able to support his growing family.

[01:43:07] [SPEAKER_02] So again, this is nonsense because he wants to build up Mr. Kenzu's character and to do that he is lying about Mr. Kenzu's motive for his bad acts. If I have a family to support and I'm in desperation and writing bad checks, what would I be using those checks for? Maybe groceries, maybe clothes, maybe things to help the child. You know what, Mr.

[01:43:37] [SPEAKER_02] Kenzu wrote his bad checks for? A motorcycle.

[01:43:40] [SPEAKER_04] Maybe he thought his family could eat the motorcycle.

[01:43:42] [SPEAKER_02] I don't think he was writing those bad checks for his family. He was writing it to supply his own selfish needs and interest.

[01:43:50] [SPEAKER_04] Oh, and in case anyone's like, well, maybe the motorcycle was to go to work. He immediately took off for Nebraska. The reason we know that is because he was arrested for the bad checks in Nebraska. So, yeah, really, really concerned about his growing family.

[01:44:05] [SPEAKER_02] And what he used the checks for, that's all in the police records, which are easily accessible. I'm not sure why Mr. Habel and his crack researcher, Ms. McGrath, missed it. Let's hear what he says about the end of the marriage. The couple

[01:44:20] [SPEAKER_00] was now struggling financially more than ever. Ultimately, G returned to Michigan. Okay,

[01:44:26] [SPEAKER_02] so this is the technique that I mentioned before, where instead of flatly asserting something, he arranges things to create an impression. Because he's trying to create the impression there that G left him because of financial reasons, because they were struggling financially. Now, G explained to us very, very clearly why she left Mr. Kinsey, which he explained this in that interview, which Mr. Habel doesn't appear to have cared enough to listen to even though he's telling her story. It's not because of

[01:44:56] [SPEAKER_02] financial reasons. It was due to the horrifying physical abuse she suffered at the hands of Mr. Habel's dear friend, Mr. Kinsey.

[01:45:04] [SPEAKER_04] She was so terrified that he was going to kill her and that things were ramping up to the point that he was going to kill her, that she fled. She fled him. And I think this is something that she continues to really struggle with, but she left baby Lena there with some of Kenzu's acolytes and then immediately tried to get her back and her baby was

[01:45:33] [SPEAKER_04] missing throughout a lot of this. Eventually, miraculously, she managed to get baby Lena back. But I say this because not only is he not accurate here, but he's taking something that was perhaps one of the most traumatic things that could happen to a person, this young woman, so out of her mind with fear that she then does something that she regrets,

[01:46:03] [SPEAKER_04] which is leave her baby and continue, you know, the profound, how much that must have gone against her instincts and how profound that sense of sorrow would be and sense of wrongness to not have your baby with you and to be scared about the well-being of your baby and to be in such a horrible situation that nothing you do is right. Yes, you do need to get away from him, but I can't imagine how

[01:46:33] [SPEAKER_04] horrible that must have been to live through. And I mean, God bless G for having the presence of mind to get herself out of there and then ultimately get her daughter back. I think she's an incredibly strong person and my heart goes out to what she was going through as such a young person. I mean, this guy got to her when she was like a teenager. I mean, he groomed her and then he took her and he tortured her for years and then she finally got out and she does all this. She does all this. She survives.

[01:47:03] [SPEAKER_04] She's a survivor. She survives just so this little penny auntie podcast can come on and say, yeah, I guess she left for economic reasons because that's what Kenzu says.

[01:47:14] [SPEAKER_02] Mr. Habel always takes pains to make clear just how great he thinks Mr. Kenzu is. This guy he describes as a light that we can all appreciate.

[01:47:25] [SPEAKER_00] In addition to doing odd jobs and selling vitamins, Fred was also the lead singer in a few local rock bands at this time. Fronting a rock band practically guarantees that the singer will get a lot of interest from women, not that Fred needed any assistance or encouragement in that area.

[01:47:40] [SPEAKER_02] Oh, yes, his old pal, Mr. Kenzu, was such a catch he didn't need any help getting ladies. So what is his source for this? Is it Mr. Kenzu himself? I suspect that Mr. Habel included this detail because he views it as an answer to the rape charges against his dear friend the light, Mr. Kenzu. But that is nonsense. Rapists like Mr. Kenzu rape because of power. It does not make any difference if they can get women in other ways. But frankly, I'm not even sure if Mr. Kenzu could get women in any other way.

[01:48:10] [SPEAKER_02] Most of the women who've had the misfortune to be around him were either rape victims or inexperienced teens that he bullied into serving his will. The vast, vast majority of people who have fallen for his charms appear to be middle-aged men like Mr. Habel himself. Now I want to talk about some stuff that really and truly pissed me off. This, this is how Mr. Habel chooses to describe the relationship between Mr. Kenzu and Crystal, one of his rape victims.

[01:48:37] [SPEAKER_00] He claimed that Crystal started hitting on him and, flattered by the attention, he was susceptible to her advances. The two dated a few times and had a physical relationship, but according to Fred, before long she became alarmingly obsessive and clingy. According to Fred, Crystal tried to change him in an attempt to mold him into the man she wanted him to be. Over the course of the couple months they dated, Fred maintained that she wanted him to change his hair and his clothing and get rid of his motorcycle.

[01:49:06] [SPEAKER_00] She asked him to stop singing in the rock band and trade his tough-looking leather jackets and blue jeans for the eyes-eyed shirts and penny loafers of the preppy set. This was all too much for Fred, who stated that in his estimation, the relationship had run its course by now. He confronted Crystal, pointing out that she apparently liked absolutely nothing about him, so why were they even together? He broke up with her in June 1986, but claimed she began to stalk him and repeatedly drive by the cabin he

[01:49:35] [SPEAKER_00] shared with Michelle in Ann Arbor. According to Fred, Crystal's obsession with him grew until things came to a head at a friend's party that they both attended, where she began to make a spectacle of herself. Fred said he decided to pack up Michelle and leave the area so the situation with Crystal could calm down.

[01:49:53] [SPEAKER_02] This is bullshit. No thinking adult who has looked at this case for more than 30 seconds can imagine that what you have just heard is true. We have Mr. Kinzo, a physically abusive man with a long history of stalking and raping. And on the other hand, we have Crystal, a woman who has never stalked anyone in her life. No one with even half a brain can imagine for a second that she was the one stalking him. It is irresponsible to put this out there in this fashion without offering the actual facts. And I want to say

[01:50:23] [SPEAKER_02] it is actually something that has caused some real stress and trauma. Because if you're an idiot and you hear something like that, you think, oh, that must be true. Crystal's a bad person. That has an effect. It has an effect. So presumably in response to this section, painting Crystal is a loon because that's how he makes her sound. He makes her sound like a loon here. A guy on the framed Facebook page, a reply guy who also was a big fan of child sex abuser Jerry Sandusky, he wrote quote, we need pictures.

[01:50:53] [SPEAKER_02] All of these people sound horrible. The police investigator, Crystal and her sister. Fred sounds horrible too, but I would not victim shame, even though I guess I just did. The jury must be horrible. Sorry, but what I've just heard so far has me fried. So this guy wants to dox Crystal. He wants pictures of Crystal. Now keep in mind, we know from what we just said about G that Mr. Kinzu's victims, I think they correctly believe he's going to die in prison. What they fear, what they fear is attacks and

[01:51:23] [SPEAKER_02] harassments by deranged members of the Kinzu cult. And now, what a Mr. Habel's biggest fan, this Jerry Sandusky fan, is saying, oh, Crystal is horrible and her face should be spread all over the internet. Can you imagine how upsetting and traumatizing that would be? And it's on Mr. Habel's head for putting out this nonsense, this bullshit, a story that no one can believe. And I'm here to tell you, if someone posted something like that in our Facebook group, we would delete it and ban the person from the group. Mr. Habel made a

[01:51:53] [SPEAKER_02] different choice. He liked the comment. That was a profoundly shitty thing to do. It validated his fans' desire to harass and intimidate a rape victim. And Mr. Habel has continued to converse with this reply guy on his page. And again, it may be worth noting that this gent is not only a fan of Mr. Hable's, he's also a Jerry Sandusky truther. Now, I should say that when I saw this cry to harass a rape victim on Mr. Habel's page, I spoke up. I went on the page and I talked about how

[01:52:23] [SPEAKER_02] wrong and disgusting it was. Mr. Habel has since made a comment that makes me think he resented that. So I want to choose my words very carefully right now about my response to that. And I want to not let anger get in the way. I'm going to choose my words very carefully. I don't give a fuck. If someone calls for the harassment of a rape victim, I am going to speak up and shame on Mr. Habel for liking it. What a repulsive, indefensible act. Do we need a break?

[01:52:53] [SPEAKER_04] Yeah, I think we do.

[01:52:54] [SPEAKER_02] I'm tired of this bullshit.

[01:52:56] [SPEAKER_04] I know. But yeah, the whole thing disgusts me. I think we can return and get the remaining episodes in part two. Does that sound good?

[01:53:05] [SPEAKER_02] Sounds wonderful.

[01:53:06] [SPEAKER_01] I need a Mr.

[01:53:07] [SPEAKER_02] Pitt.

[01:53:07] [SPEAKER_04] Yes, I know you do.

[01:53:09] [SPEAKER_01] Thanks so much for listening to The Murder Sheet. If you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover, please email us at murdersheet at gmail dot com. If you have actionable information about an unsolved crime, please report it to the appropriate authorities.

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[01:53:53] [SPEAKER_01] Special thanks to Kevin Tyler Greenlee, who composed the music for The Murder Sheet, and who you can find on the web at kevintg.com.

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