The Mystery of DB Cooper: The Parachute that Doesn't Hold Air

[00:00:00] Back in 1971, a man now known as DB Cooper hijacked a plane, demanded ransom money, and then parachuted into darkness, never to be seen or heard from again. Even now, no one is sure who he was or why he did what he did. But there have been many, many theories.

[00:00:17] And lately, there's been a new one. Perhaps you saw media coverage of it over the holiday weekend. A YouTuber named Dan Greider has publicized some claims made by the family of the late Richard

[00:00:29] Floyd McCoy. The family claims that McCoy was DB Cooper and that they actually have the parachute he used when he jumped into history. Some people think that story makes sense. They point out that McCoy resembles the sketch made of Cooper and that he later actually hijacked another plane.

[00:00:49] But there's a problem. The theory that McCoy is Cooper is not new. The Federal Bureau of Investigation looked into it decades ago and ruled McCoy out.

[00:00:59] So, what's going on here? To find out, we went to Eric Uless. Eric is an expert on the case and has talked us through the details of it before. We knew he was just the person to explain this newest wrinkle to us.

[00:01:14] My name is Anya Kane. I'm a journalist.

[00:01:16] And I'm Kevin Greenlee. I'm an attorney.

[00:01:19] And this is The Murder Sheet.

[00:01:21] We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews, and deep dives into murder cases.

[00:01:27] We're the murder sheet.

[00:01:29] And this is The Mystery of DB Cooper, the parachute that doesn't hold air.

[00:02:20] So, I guess to start off with Eric, our listeners remember you from your previous, you know, coming on our show to talk about JFK and DB Cooper.

[00:02:29] But, you know, can you just give us a little bit of a recap of some of the work that you've done on the DB Cooper case in particular?

[00:02:36] I've done quite a bit of work on a few different areas in the case.

[00:02:41] The primary area that I've spent my efforts in the case have revolved around the tie and evidence that has been procured from the tie.

[00:02:51] DB Cooper left on board the jet a skinny black clip-on tie that was recovered by the FBI in Reno, Nevada.

[00:02:59] And at the time the tie was recovered, it was of very little evidentiary value.

[00:03:06] But in recent years with the advent of scanning electron microscopes, DNA testing, and the like, it's actually served as a treasure trove of evidence.

[00:03:16] So, I've really been spending a lot of time on that.

[00:03:20] Fortunately, there was a scientist, a guy named Tom K, who managed to get access to the tie on two separate occasions, once in 2.9, once in 2.11.

[00:03:32] And at that time he applied some what are called carbon sticky stub, sticky stubs to the tie, which enabled him to collect some of the particles from the tie.

[00:03:46] And then those particles were analyzed.

[00:03:49] So, they kind of, they've pointed a certain direction.

[00:03:53] A lot of that data is the kind of stuff I've been digging into.

[00:03:56] But ultimately, I think that the scientific evidence that has come from the tie is pretty clear that DB Cooper was in research and development, was basically a metallurgist engineer.

[00:04:09] I identified one particle in particular, a titanium and antimony alloy that appears to point specifically to a company called Remcrew Titanium, which later became known as Crucible Steel.

[00:04:22] They were a major subcontractor for Boeing throughout the 60s and 1970s.

[00:04:29] Their titanium research lab involved a very small number of men who were engineers.

[00:04:37] And that ultimately, through a whole series of talking with people who work there and looking at a number of different things, everything from U.S. patents to scientific analysis of the particles and talking to metallurgists and so forth, ultimately has led me to focus on one person of interest in particular, a gentleman named Vince Peterson, who has long since passed.

[00:05:00] He passed in 2002, and I've communicated with the family.

[00:05:03] And I know quite a bit about Mr. Peterson.

[00:05:06] So, that's really what most of my efforts have been spent on, have focused on.

[00:05:12] But I'm very familiar with every aspect of the case.

[00:05:15] So, even this newest stuff that's come out related to a parachute and everything else is a little interesting to me because I'm actually very familiar with all of this.

[00:05:29] And I'm very familiar with the people behind it as well.

[00:05:32] Dan Grider, who's the YouTube gentleman behind it.

[00:05:36] Richard Floyd McCoy, his son and daughter, both of whom I've met.

[00:05:42] So, I mean, I know who these people are and I'm very familiar with the evidence and everything around it.

[00:05:48] So, I can speak pretty intelligently to the veracity of what we're dealing with here.

[00:05:53] And not to hide the ball, I think what you're doing with the tie is valuable and is important and has the potential of real answers.

[00:06:05] I don't think this parachute discovery, for lack of a better word, has that potential.

[00:06:11] I don't want to hide the ball.

[00:06:14] I don't think Richard McCoy was D.B. Cooper.

[00:06:17] Without talking about the parachute stuff yet, some people do believe he was D.B. Cooper.

[00:06:24] And they believed it even before this parachute discovery, for lack of a better word.

[00:06:30] Was there reasons for thinking he was D.B. Cooper?

[00:06:33] Basically, he kind of vaguely looks like the sketch and he was also someone who skyjacked a plane?

[00:06:39] I think that's exactly it.

[00:06:42] He conducted a copycat skyjacking in April of 1972.

[00:06:47] So, five months later.

[00:06:48] And he got away with it.

[00:06:50] The only reason he got caught is because he had talked.

[00:06:52] And the FBI knocked on his door one day and found $500,000 hanging out in his closet.

[00:06:58] But if you look at the sketch of Richard Floyd McCoy and you compare it to the original D.B.

[00:07:05] Cooper sketch, there is a striking resemblance.

[00:07:07] So, it makes perfect sense to think, wow, this guy could be the guy.

[00:07:13] I mean, he has to be high on the list.

[00:07:16] But very quickly, the FBI ascertained that he was not D.B.

[00:07:20] Cooper based upon a number of critical things.

[00:07:24] Probably the most important thing is that there were a handful of premier witnesses, primary witnesses,

[00:07:32] the flight attendants who communicated with him, sat and talked with D.B.

[00:07:36] Cooper, that type of thing.

[00:07:38] And there was about five, I think four or five primary witnesses.

[00:07:41] And all of the witnesses said, quote unquote, that he was definitely not D.B.

[00:07:48] Cooper.

[00:07:48] So, that's a very big problem if the witnesses say, hey, well, we get that the sketch kind of resembles the image.

[00:07:56] But he's just, he's not the guy.

[00:07:57] He's definitely not the guy.

[00:07:59] The other thing is Richard Floyd McCoy was only 28 years of age at the time of the skyjacking.

[00:08:06] And the witnesses pegged D.B.

[00:08:09] Cooper's age is close to 50, close to 50 years old.

[00:08:13] So, you've got a, you know, you're off by 20 years there, which is a very, very big problem.

[00:08:17] Additionally, Richard Floyd McCoy had a lisp.

[00:08:21] He spoke with a lisp.

[00:08:23] He was from North Carolina.

[00:08:24] Maybe he had a little bit of a southern twang in his accent.

[00:08:27] But neither one of those things were reported in the, from the witnesses.

[00:08:32] They said that D.B.

[00:08:34] Cooper had a non-discernible American accent.

[00:08:37] So, there's really nothing pointing to him being D.B.

[00:08:41] Cooper.

[00:08:42] That said, the FBI did its due diligence.

[00:08:46] They took it seriously.

[00:08:47] They investigated him seriously.

[00:08:48] And ultimately, eliminated the guy as a suspect.

[00:08:53] I was wondering, was there any evidence even maybe even going further than that, pointing

[00:08:58] away from McCoy being involved?

[00:09:00] Like, our understanding is that there's some evidence that he was in Vegas at the time?

[00:09:05] Yeah.

[00:09:06] There is evidence that indicates he was in Vegas as well as Utah shortly thereafter.

[00:09:13] The problem is, is there's nothing that absolutely pegs to precisely the time of the skyjacking.

[00:09:20] You know, I mean, he was in Utah the following morning.

[00:09:23] So, it seems highly improbable that he would have gotten back to Provo, Utah the next morning.

[00:09:30] You know, let's say 12 hours later or something.

[00:09:33] But it's not impossible, to be sure.

[00:09:36] The same sort of thing with Vegas.

[00:09:38] So, but yeah, there's evidence of that.

[00:09:41] And we've got witnesses that have also said that, you know, he was there, you know, in

[00:09:47] Utah.

[00:09:48] And there's just nothing to indicate that he was gone during that period of time and that

[00:09:54] he was the guy.

[00:09:55] So, and also it's important to note that he was somewhat sloppy.

[00:10:00] I mean, how he conducted his, he was a little more detailed, certainly more detailed in terms

[00:10:05] of what he ordered the pilots to do and so forth.

[00:10:08] But he was quite a bit more sloppy.

[00:10:10] In fact, one of the pieces of evidence that ultimately convicted him is that one of the

[00:10:16] demand notes he accidentally left with the flight attendant.

[00:10:20] And she kept the note and it had his fingerprint on it.

[00:10:23] And D.B.

[00:10:24] Cooper executed his skyjacking almost flawlessly.

[00:10:29] One would think that if you had a second bite at the apple, so to speak, that if anything,

[00:10:34] you would improve that you wouldn't, you know, all of a sudden kind of make all these mistakes,

[00:10:39] you know, like a rank amateur or something.

[00:10:41] So there really is just nothing that substantiates that, that he was D.B.

[00:10:48] Cooper.

[00:10:48] And yeah, so again, the FBI comfortably eliminated him.

[00:10:53] And again, I understand he's on first blush.

[00:10:56] He's kind of a compelling interest based exclusively on the facts that he did something very similar

[00:11:02] months later and that there was a resemblance to the sketch, but he just simply wasn't the person.

[00:11:07] So this new bit of so-called evidence involves the parachutes.

[00:11:12] So before we get into that, can you tell us what parachutes were used in this case, where they came from,

[00:11:20] what they looked like, what we know about them?

[00:11:23] D.B.

[00:11:23] Cooper requested four parachutes and the four parachutes were in the form of two front parachutes

[00:11:32] and two back parachutes.

[00:11:33] Uh, I believe what D.B.

[00:11:36] Cooper essentially wanted or expected was, you know, two regular back parachutes and two reserve

[00:11:44] parachutes that would normally clip to the front.

[00:11:46] Uh, so essentially two sets of parachutes, the main coupled with a reserve.

[00:11:52] What they delivered to him ultimately were two back parachutes, but they were what are called

[00:11:57] emergency rig parachutes.

[00:11:59] There are parachutes that are designed for emergency situations.

[00:12:02] Like if you're a fighter pilot and you have to eject, you know, you're ejecting from the,

[00:12:08] from the jet, obviously under extraordinary circumstances.

[00:12:11] And it's a one shot deal that, that emergency rig parachute, if it doesn't work, you die.

[00:12:16] There's no reserve attached to it at the same time.

[00:12:20] So the thing about the emergency rigs is that they're extremely durable.

[00:12:25] I mean, you can probably jump out of a plane of 500 miles an hour and that thing, that thing's

[00:12:29] going to work.

[00:12:30] They, they, they never fail.

[00:12:32] So it definitely delivered D.B.

[00:12:34] Cooper to the ground alive.

[00:12:36] And those two back parachutes came from a gentleman named Norm Hayden, who has since

[00:12:41] passed.

[00:12:42] You know, he's in the FBI files, the 302s.

[00:12:44] We've read the files.

[00:12:45] We know what the rigs look like, the emergency backed rigs and everything else.

[00:12:50] And they're either NB6 or NB8 rigs, which are Navy parachutes, basically Navy emergency

[00:12:57] rig parachutes.

[00:12:58] Additionally, there were two reserve parachutes that came from a second source from the Issaquah

[00:13:04] Skyport, uh, which was in Issaquah, Washington.

[00:13:08] Um, the guy named Lynn Emmerich, who was the head guy there at Issaquah Skyport is the one

[00:13:15] who pulled out the two parachutes, the two reserve parachutes.

[00:13:19] One of which was perfect, perfectly functional, worked perfectly well.

[00:13:23] The other of which was actually inoperable.

[00:13:26] And it was a, a dummied up, uh, emergency rig pair.

[00:13:31] It was a dummied up reserve parachute that was supposed to be used exclusively on the ground

[00:13:36] for training purposes.

[00:13:38] So it wasn't functional, didn't work, uh, had half the canopy cut out, that kind of thing.

[00:13:44] So that was one of the two that he handed over to the Washington state patrol, which was ultimately

[00:13:49] delivered to D.B.

[00:13:50] Cooper unbeknownst to him.

[00:13:51] He didn't realize till later what, what his error.

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[00:18:47] D.B. Cooper jumped with one of the emergency back rigs

[00:18:52] and with that dummy reserve.

[00:18:55] He did take one of the reserve parachutes,

[00:18:57] the one that didn't function well.

[00:18:59] I firmly believe that he didn't take the two others he left behind.

[00:19:04] One of the reserve, the other reserve that was left behind,

[00:19:07] he cannibalized.

[00:19:08] He opened it up and he took something approximately around 100 feet of shroud line,

[00:19:14] cut about 100 feet of shroud line out of that parachute

[00:19:16] that he used to affix the money and bag and other items to his person

[00:19:21] before he jumped out of the jet.

[00:19:23] The other emergency back parachute that was delivered to him

[00:19:28] that was left behind on the jet was untouched.

[00:19:30] Perfectly, perfectly fine condition.

[00:19:32] So the dummy reserve parachute that he took,

[00:19:36] I do not believe that he intended to use it

[00:19:39] or secure it to his body in any way as a backup measure of,

[00:19:44] you know, an additional measure of security.

[00:19:47] Rather, I think the evidence is pretty clear

[00:19:49] that he actually used it to house some of the ransom money.

[00:19:52] Because when the ransom was delivered,

[00:19:54] it was delivered in a canvas white C first bank bag,

[00:19:58] not very durable.

[00:19:59] And I think he immediately realized that that bag probably wasn't going to hold up

[00:20:04] after jumping out of the plane and may break up and he may lose all the money.

[00:20:08] So I think he took some of the ransom out,

[00:20:10] put it in the dummy reserve and attached it to him in some manner.

[00:20:14] But that's ultimately how that happened.

[00:20:17] The dummy reserve that D.B. Cooper jumped with,

[00:20:20] as well as the main emergency back rig that D.B. Cooper jumped with,

[00:20:26] which was perfectly operational.

[00:20:28] Neither one of those has ever been found.

[00:20:30] Well, I guess now some people would say otherwise,

[00:20:34] because there is this claim.

[00:20:36] What is the story people are telling about this discovery?

[00:20:40] Well, amazingly, 53 years later,

[00:20:46] or I guess 52 years later, whatever,

[00:20:48] apparently this parachute was found in some storage unit

[00:20:53] related to the now late wife of Richard Floyd McCoy by the kids.

[00:21:00] I am very suspect of the story.

[00:21:04] People finding evidence 52 years later is like,

[00:21:07] okay, a little too convenient.

[00:21:09] But having said that, irrespective of that,

[00:21:13] we've got photographs of the parachute that was found.

[00:21:16] We got photographs of the parachute that was handed over to the FBI.

[00:21:20] It is a completely different parachute than the one that was described by a gentleman named Earl

[00:21:28] Cossie who had packed the parachutes and was a parachute expert.

[00:21:32] He was very detailed.

[00:21:33] He knew exactly which parachutes had been handed over.

[00:21:36] The parachutes that had been handed over were Navy-backed NB-6 or NB-8 parachutes.

[00:21:42] They look a certain way and they have certain components that make up those parachutes.

[00:21:48] The one that was found and handed over to the FBI recently,

[00:21:54] and I guess this was in September of 2023,

[00:21:57] so I guess it's been a little over a year at this point,

[00:22:00] is a completely different rig.

[00:22:02] It's a B-4.

[00:22:03] It's an Air Force rig called a B-4.

[00:22:05] And it has certain components to it, including D-rings and cap wells and other things to it that were not incorporated,

[00:22:15] were not part of the parachute that was handed to D.B. Cooper.

[00:22:19] So just looking at the parachute, any expert or knowledgeable person looking at the parachute

[00:22:25] can clearly see it's not the same parachute.

[00:22:28] It's kind of like saying the guy committed a bank robbery and drove off in a Mercedes-Benz

[00:22:34] and then somebody finds a Chevy Tahoe and tries to say,

[00:22:39] hey, we found the getaway car.

[00:22:40] No, it's two completely different vehicles.

[00:22:43] So that's the thing.

[00:22:45] So it's very provable, very easy to disprove the veracity of the find.

[00:22:54] Makes for good media attention and all that kind of stuff.

[00:22:57] And, you know, perhaps that was one of the motivating factors behind the story.

[00:23:01] But for our purposes, for those of us who were trying to solve the case

[00:23:05] and who were intellectually honest, I think it's absolutely clear that that parachute has nothing to do with D.B. Cooper,

[00:23:14] is completely unrelated, and that the real parachute is still out there somewhere just yet to be found.

[00:23:18] So what evidence do they offer to suggest this was the actual parachute?

[00:23:25] Well, I think there is zero evidence.

[00:23:28] I think what's tantalizing to the FBI, and I applaud the FBI for taking all these types of tips seriously,

[00:23:37] but what's, I think, tantalizing the FBI is purportedly this parachute was owned by Richard Floyd McCoy.

[00:23:46] Now, Richard Floyd McCoy was a legit skyjacker.

[00:23:49] He did the same thing.

[00:23:50] He skyjacked the jet, was ultimately convicted, 45 years in prison.

[00:23:56] He ended up breaking out of prison and decided to get into a gunfight with the FBI, which he lost.

[00:24:01] He was killed on November 9th, 1974 in a shootout with the FBI.

[00:24:06] But by virtue of the fact that apparently this parachute was one that was formerly in the possession of Richard Floyd McCoy,

[00:24:15] yeah, okay, let's take a look at it.

[00:24:17] Let's make sure that this thing is not related.

[00:24:22] But very quickly, after looking at it, it becomes very quick to ascertain that there's absolutely no relationship.

[00:24:30] So I don't have expressed any ill will or anything toward the FBI.

[00:24:36] They did their job, and that's that.

[00:24:38] But it's very easy for somebody like Dan Grider to make a big deal out of it.

[00:24:44] The fact that the FBI interviewed him and the brother and sister of Richard Floyd McCoy,

[00:24:50] they actually took DNA, a DNA sample from Richard Floyd McCoy Jr.

[00:24:55] It's very easy to make a lot of ways to make a big deal out of it because the case has basically been closed since 2016.

[00:25:03] But honestly, it's little more than what the FBI has done all along.

[00:25:08] For those of us who have read the 40,000 pages of FBI files, we can see many.

[00:25:14] The FBI took all the tips and all the suspects' inquiries and so forth seriously.

[00:25:21] There's one person, for example, that professed to have a divining device.

[00:25:26] It was basically a jar with Alka-Seltzer and soda water and with a little wire that would point to where the money was buried.

[00:25:35] The FBI took that tip seriously because they didn't know, is this coop or is this a kook or whatever the deal is?

[00:25:41] So, you know, they're just doing, they're exercising a measure of due diligence here.

[00:25:46] And that's all they've done here with this case is just exercise a measure of due diligence.

[00:25:50] It is not in any way, shape or form any kind of endorsement from the FBI saying that, you know, this is a legitimate fine related to the D.B. Cooper skyjacking.

[00:26:02] Why do you suppose the media runs with stories like this when they are so readily and so easily disapprovable?

[00:26:13] Well, I think part of it has to do with the fact that it just so happens that the 53rd anniversary of the skyjacking was literally on November 24th.

[00:26:22] So just a handful of days ago.

[00:26:24] And this story happened to break, you know, within probably 24, 48 hours of the anniversary.

[00:26:30] And that tends to happen.

[00:26:33] But it's a fascinating story.

[00:26:38] It's a fascinating story.

[00:26:40] And I suppose it's an in.

[00:26:43] You know, the media can honestly report that the FBI sat down and interviewed Dan Grider and the kids and took possession of this evidence, quote unquote, in DNA and are looking into the case.

[00:27:01] And which, again, to those of us who are in the know realize, well, that's not a big deal.

[00:27:07] It's not really a big deal.

[00:27:08] But it is it's just very easy to sensationalize.

[00:27:11] And I think that it you know, there's a lot of interest.

[00:27:14] There's a lot of interest in the D.B. Cooper case.

[00:27:16] I can see this, you know, globally, especially in the American speaking territories or countries, the U.S., Canada, Great Britain, Australia, New Zealand.

[00:27:28] So I think it just I think that has something to do with it as well.

[00:27:31] That it's the kind of thing that the readers like to read about.

[00:27:34] So I imagine that that's that's a big part of it.

[00:27:38] Yeah. And I'm curious, having known some of the players at the heart of this recent development, do you have any other further insights?

[00:27:45] I'm trying to ask this question carefully so it's not, you know, automatically start a lot of drama.

[00:27:50] But I'm just like in terms of the credibility issues here in terms of the motivations, any other insights on that?

[00:27:55] A drama comes with this case.

[00:27:57] It's all good.

[00:27:58] And anybody who knows me knows that I'm a straight shooter and I don't bullshit when it comes to this kind of thing.

[00:28:03] So I just tell you, I think, you know, Dan Grider is a controversial figure.

[00:28:08] He's a very controversial figure.

[00:28:10] I know the guy personally.

[00:28:11] I don't like the guy personally and I like pretty much everybody.

[00:28:16] So I think that's kind of saying something.

[00:28:19] Basically, I just think he's full of shit to be perfectly blunt.

[00:28:22] That's my opinion.

[00:28:23] And I think I'm right about that.

[00:28:26] As for Richard Floyd McCoy's kids, the son and daughter,

[00:28:31] I think that they earnestly believe that their father may well have been D.B. Cooper.

[00:28:36] I can understand that.

[00:28:38] Their dad was a skyjacker and went to prison and everything else.

[00:28:43] So it's probably not difficult for them to make the leap and envision their father being a D.B. Cooper.

[00:28:51] But at the end of the day, if you want to really get to the heart of what this, you know, who was involved with this,

[00:28:57] you have to kind of remove emotion from it.

[00:29:00] You got to be very objective.

[00:29:01] You got to be intellectually honest.

[00:29:02] And I think it's a little difficult for family members, either yay or nay, when it comes to the family.

[00:29:08] There are some families that sort of want the family member to have been D.B. Cooper.

[00:29:13] And there are others that adamantly don't want their family member to have been D.B. Cooper,

[00:29:17] both which entails a measure of emotion and a lack of objectivity to some degree.

[00:29:22] I have no problem with that.

[00:29:23] I'm not related, as far as I know, to D.B. Cooper, so I can be perfectly objective about it.

[00:29:28] But so what I'm getting at here is I don't – I think they believe 100% everything they've expressed.

[00:29:36] Richard Floyd McCoy Jr. and I believe his sister's name is Shantae.

[00:29:41] Shantae or Shantel.

[00:29:42] I apologize to her because I can't remember which one it is.

[00:29:45] But I do question, however, Grider's tactics a little bit more stringently.

[00:29:51] I just – just based upon my dealing with him and just sort of his reputation in the Cooper world.

[00:29:58] And that's just the way it is.

[00:29:59] Frankly, I don't give a shit if people like what I have to say about it or not.

[00:30:02] That's just the truth, you know.

[00:30:04] You know, like I said, I don't have time to waste them.

[00:30:07] I'm not going to bullshit people on that.

[00:30:08] That's just reality.

[00:30:09] Very controversial figure.

[00:30:11] Yeah.

[00:30:12] And there you go.

[00:30:13] Do you have any tips for our listeners on how they can assess, I guess, stories about D.B. Cooper and sort of these fabulous new leads as they come up?

[00:30:25] Because, I mean, we've seen that happen in a lot of different cases.

[00:30:28] You know, every other year it seems like they're solving the Zodiac murders.

[00:30:32] And it's like I think people understandably see a headline and think, whoa, okay, wow.

[00:30:37] How can we all better assess these going forward so maybe we don't get our hopes up when it's a nothing burger?

[00:30:45] It's a little tough.

[00:30:47] It is very tough because in the case of D.B. Cooper, and I'll speak to that because I know more about that than Zodiac, for example.

[00:30:56] I mean, I know the people who are trustworthy and those who are not trustworthy.

[00:31:02] And so, you know, I'm a person who speaks truth to the case and is primarily focused on the evidence and the story that the evidence tells.

[00:31:12] I say that the evidence, you know, in the case of D.B. Cooper's tie, I say the tie doesn't lie.

[00:31:19] The tie doesn't lie.

[00:31:20] The evidence from the tie doesn't lie.

[00:31:22] And the evidence doesn't have an agenda.

[00:31:24] It doesn't care who your favorite suspect is.

[00:31:27] The evidence is what the evidence is.

[00:31:29] And the evidence speaks to the truth.

[00:31:31] So that's where I live.

[00:31:32] I focus on that.

[00:31:34] There are some other people, a guy named Tom Kay, who's a well-known scientist who's really done a lot of work utilizing that evidence.

[00:31:41] You know, he's the same kind of guy.

[00:31:43] He's the same sort of way.

[00:31:44] When he talks about the evidence and stuff that's been procured from the tie, which he has really spearheaded in a lot of ways.

[00:31:50] You know, you can trust what he says related to that.

[00:31:54] A parachute expert who has been really pretty instrumental in this recent, you know, uproar-related parachute guy named Mark Meltzer.

[00:32:02] Very, very reputable, honest man, parachute expert, attorney.

[00:32:09] You can take what he says to the bank.

[00:32:12] I mean, these are the kind of people you want to listen to.

[00:32:14] The people you want to avoid are the people who are the people that are suspect peddlers.

[00:32:22] That they're trying to push a suspect.

[00:32:24] They've got, you know, they're for whatever reason.

[00:32:29] And yeah, I've got my kind of favorite guy, Vince Peterson.

[00:32:32] But I'll be the first person to say, I don't know if he was D.B. Cooper or not.

[00:32:36] But what I am willing to do is I am willing to, and this is hot off the press.

[00:32:42] I'll just tell you this right now.

[00:32:43] In fact, I was communicating with an FBI agent that I know today about this.

[00:32:49] I have an envelope, a still-sealed envelope from 1961 that Mr. Peterson, Vince Peterson, sent to his wife.

[00:32:59] When the wife received the envelope, she tore down the edge of the envelope and removed the letter.

[00:33:04] The envelope is still sealed.

[00:33:06] The stamp is still on the envelope.

[00:33:08] I received that envelope from their daughter.

[00:33:12] That envelope would be a terrific piece of evidence to sequence Vince Peterson's DNA.

[00:33:18] I have tried at length, as you know, to get access to D.B. Cooper's tie and to try to get my hands on the DNA profile that they have or whatever they're working with.

[00:33:28] But I've been rebuffed at every turn.

[00:33:31] So what I have done recently, as recent as today, is I have formally written a letter to this FBI agent.

[00:33:39] And I'm trying to get the FBI to take the envelope and for the FBI to actually test the DNA on the envelope and compare with whatever they have on their CODIS system there, see if there's any kind of match.

[00:33:53] You can leave me out of it.

[00:33:54] We'll let them do it.

[00:33:56] And I hope they take it seriously.

[00:33:58] I hope they do it.

[00:34:00] And whatever the results are or whatever the results are, if they actually do it and they say, Vince Peterson, the DNA doesn't match at all.

[00:34:08] Fair enough.

[00:34:09] Doesn't match at all.

[00:34:10] It's time to move on.

[00:34:11] We can check that guy off.

[00:34:12] The problem is there are a few suspect peddlers out there who, I mean, literally Jesus Christ himself could come down and say, you got the wrong guy.

[00:34:22] And they're going to argue with Jesus Christ himself.

[00:34:25] And those are the kind of people you want to avoid.

[00:34:27] So there you go.

[00:34:29] What you're telling us is very exciting.

[00:34:32] And it does bring up something about how you could tell if a person is to be blunt, a crank or not.

[00:34:38] Because when you put forward a theory, it's important if the theory is falsifiable.

[00:34:43] You have to be able to imagine evidence that would disprove it.

[00:34:46] And you've offered your theories about Mr. Vince Peterson.

[00:34:50] And you're also saying here's evidence that could disprove it if this DNA doesn't match.

[00:34:55] And that's very, very exciting.

[00:34:58] At the end of the day, I've said this many times before.

[00:35:02] I want to know who the real guy was.

[00:35:05] I'm not interested in the fake DB Cooper.

[00:35:08] You know, I mean, I want to know who the real guy was.

[00:35:11] And so that's kind of like my guiding principle.

[00:35:15] Who is the real guy?

[00:35:16] And let's see if we can prove it.

[00:35:18] And to the degree that people have that as a guiding principle in some manner, you know, then I think it's easy to stay somewhat grounded.

[00:35:28] Sure, you're going to be disappointed at times when maybe somebody you get really excited about.

[00:35:32] It doesn't quite pan out.

[00:35:34] But that's okay.

[00:35:35] That's fine.

[00:35:35] I mean, you know, Teddy Roosevelt's the man in the arena quote about, you know, basically getting in the ring and dusting yourself off when you don't succeed.

[00:35:45] And basically going at it again, you know, being resilient and persistent and that kind of thing.

[00:35:52] I think that's a laudable.

[00:35:53] Those are laudable traits.

[00:35:54] It's very American, as a matter of fact.

[00:35:56] So, and it's American crime.

[00:35:57] So, there we go.

[00:35:58] But that's it.

[00:35:59] I mean, that's just how I operate as far as this goes.

[00:36:01] I know there are others.

[00:36:02] I'm not the only one.

[00:36:03] But there are also a lot of charlatans.

[00:36:05] You know, there are others who are much more agenda-driven.

[00:36:09] And I know it's hard to delineate between the two if you're on the outside.

[00:36:18] It really is.

[00:36:19] But honestly, a little bit of prodding around on the internet and YouTube or whatever, you could probably pretty quickly ascertain whether or not somebody's full of hot air or not.

[00:36:29] And honestly, this parachute just doesn't hold air.

[00:36:33] Love that.

[00:36:34] You know, I do wish the media would do a better job betting, though.

[00:36:37] That is their jobs.

[00:36:38] And it feels like the ball was dropped here.

[00:36:41] And I'm just going to say one thing.

[00:36:43] When you cross off a name, that's more data.

[00:36:47] You've crossed up.

[00:36:48] And that's an accomplishment in and of itself.

[00:36:50] So, we commend your approach.

[00:36:52] And I guess I just have a dumb question.

[00:36:54] Do we have a sense if the FBI does have DNA of D.B. Cooper or that they could potentially get it eventually?

[00:37:06] This is what I know.

[00:37:08] And this is also what I suspect.

[00:37:10] In 2001, the FBI did test the tie for DNA and did come up with some partial DNA profiles or a partial DNA profile.

[00:37:19] This is, again, using 2001 technology, which is light years behind what we have today, two and a half decades later.

[00:37:31] They had a DNA initiative in 2004.

[00:37:36] I believe there were eight gentlemen that they tried to affect a comparison.

[00:37:43] And apparently, none of them really went anywhere.

[00:37:46] They couldn't really affect a comparison.

[00:37:48] They couldn't wholly eliminate anybody from it just because they weren't 100% sure that the DNA they were working with was actually D.B. Cooper's.

[00:37:57] And, again, they had limited technology.

[00:37:59] Now, I filed a lawsuit in, it must have been 2023.

[00:38:03] I think it was March of 2023, I filed the lawsuit asking to get access to D.B. Cooper's clip-on tie with a DNA specialist for the purpose of swabbing a heretofore undiscovered part of the clip-on tie that I believe may contain a complete D.B. Cooper DNA profile that is also not contaminated in the form of a spindle.

[00:38:29] There was a little adjustable spindle incorporated into the tie knot that apparently everyone had overlooked.

[00:38:37] And so I took it to court and I was unsuccessful.

[00:38:41] I do believe, based upon a number of things, that part of the reason I was unsuccessful and that the FBI pushed back and didn't give me and a DNA specialist access for the purpose of testing was I believe that they ultimately tested it themselves.

[00:38:57] And I do believe they came away with a DNA profile that was much better than what they had previously.

[00:39:06] Now, there are a few reasons I say that.

[00:39:08] And one of the reasons I say that is because they did, indeed, later in 2023, approach Richard Floyd McCoy Jr.

[00:39:17] and asked for his DNA, that presumably they wouldn't have asked for his DNA for comparative purposes if they didn't have anything new to work with.

[00:39:29] Because by 2020, the FBI and those in the FBI lab, and I've talked with FBI agents about this,

[00:39:36] basically felt like whatever they had from procured in 2001 in terms of a partial profile was basically a joke.

[00:39:45] It was completely unusable.

[00:39:47] They just, they had, there were just too many questions related to it.

[00:39:51] So obviously something changed by 2023 when they got the DNA from Richard Floyd McCoy Jr.

[00:39:58] So I do believe they do have an updated profile and I do believe it's on the CODIS system.

[00:40:04] I did file another Freedom of Information Act earlier this year regarding the 2001 DNA profile and the 2023 DNA profile saying,

[00:40:14] hey, you know, you're not going to give me access to the tie.

[00:40:17] At least give me the profile.

[00:40:18] Give me the numbers, whatever it is.

[00:40:20] And they wrote back and they rejected my request, of course, because they said that information is all on CODIS and CODIS is specifically exempt from FOIA.

[00:40:32] So, so that was good to establish as far as I was concerned there.

[00:40:36] So I do believe that the FBI has some usable DNA and may even be very usable.

[00:40:40] It may be, you know, maybe a close to a solid, 100% solid profile.

[00:40:46] So that's exciting.

[00:40:48] That's exciting.

[00:40:49] But it only is exciting.

[00:40:50] It only helps us if they're willing to leverage that, if they're willing to tap into it, if they're willing to use it.

[00:40:56] If they won't give me access to the tie or whatever, or give me the DNA profile, and at the same time, take the profile themselves and lock it in CODIS and are unwilling to tap into that resource, they're in effect covering up DB Cooper.

[00:41:16] They're making it impossible for anybody to ascertain whether somebody could have been DB Cooper or not.

[00:41:22] They're in effect protecting the guy at that point, which doesn't seem quite right.

[00:41:27] So, I mean, I realize they can't entertain every single request to make a DNA comparison or what have you.

[00:41:35] I get that.

[00:41:36] But I think, you know, arguably, if you look at what I'm coming to the table with in the terms of the scientific evidence pointing in the direction of Vince Peterson or somebody close to him, you know, we're dealing with something that's on a little different level here.

[00:41:52] You know, we're not talking about divining devices or rods or things of this nature.

[00:41:56] This is hard science.

[00:41:57] So, I think it does behoove them to actually take this envelope, which may well be the silver bullet, and test it and let's see if there's a match or not.

[00:42:11] We want to thank Eric for taking time from his holiday weekend to speak with us.

[00:42:15] You can follow him and his work at ericulis.com.

[00:42:19] That's E-R-I-C-U-L-I-S dot com.

[00:42:24] Thanks so much for listening to The Murder Sheet.

[00:42:28] If you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover, please email us at murdersheet at gmail dot com.

[00:42:36] If you have actionable information about an unsolved crime, please report it to the appropriate authorities.

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[00:43:09] Special thanks to Kevin Tyler Greenlee, who composed the music for The Murder Sheet, and who you can find on the web at kevintg.com.

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[00:43:39] Thanks again for listening.

[00:43:40] Thanks so much for sticking around to the end of this Murder Sheet episode.

[00:43:45] Just as a quick post-roll ad, we wanted to tell you again about our friend Jason Blair's wonderful Silver Linings Handbook.

[00:43:53] This show is phenomenal.

[00:43:55] Whether you are interested in true crime, the criminal justice system, law, mental health, stories of marginalized people, overcoming tragedy, well-being, like he does it all.

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[00:44:08] He has so many different conversations with interesting people, people whose loved ones have gone missing, other podcasters in the true crime space, just interesting people with interesting life experiences.

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[00:44:54] Yes.

[00:44:54] He's been a really good friend to us.

[00:44:57] And so it's fun to be able to hit a button on my phone and get a little dose of Jason talking to people whenever I want.

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[00:45:07] We really recommend it highly.

[00:45:09] Yeah, I think our audience will like it.

[00:45:11] And you've already met Jason if you listen consistently to our show.

[00:45:13] He's been on our show a couple times.

[00:45:14] We've been on his show.

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[00:45:17] I say this in one of our ads about him, but I literally always am like, oh, yeah, I remember when Jason said this.

[00:45:23] That really resonated.

[00:45:24] Like, I do quote him in conversations sometimes because he really has a good grasp of different complicated issues.

[00:45:30] She quotes him to me all the time.

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[00:45:51] There's kind of a common through line of compassion and empathy there that I think we find very nice.

[00:45:56] And we work on a lot of stories that can be very tough, and we try to bring compassion and empathy to it.

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[00:46:13] It's compassionate.

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[00:46:16] But I also want to emphasize it's smart.

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[00:46:24] This is a smart show, but it's an accessible show.

[00:46:28] I think you'll all really enjoy it.

[00:46:30] Yeah, and he's got a great community that he's building.

[00:46:32] So we're really excited to be a part of that.

[00:46:34] We're fans of the show.

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[00:46:38] Download some episodes.

[00:46:39] Listen, I think you'll understand what we're talking about once you do.

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