The University of Idaho Murders: Can Bryan Kohberger Withdraw His Guilty Plea?

[00:00:00] [SPEAKER_00] Hi, I'm Kevin and today we're going to be talking about the latest in the University of Idaho case, namely the fact that Bryan Kohberger has filed a petition seeking to withdraw his guilty plea.

[00:00:12] [SPEAKER_01] Content warning, this episode contains discussion of murder and violence.

[00:00:18] [SPEAKER_00] So Anya, I don't know if you remember this, but back in the old days, a long time ago when we were covering a case out of Delphi, Indiana, sometimes at the top of a show, we'd say you don't really have to listen to this.

[00:00:32] [SPEAKER_01] Because we're terrible business people.

[00:00:35] [SPEAKER_00] If you're interested, by all means, listen, but no, this isn't going to have an impact on the case as a whole. And if you want to just go out and touch grass or play with your children or walk your dog, this is one you can skip and you're not going to be losing anything really valuable. And so with that in mind, I want to say that we are going to talk about the latest in this case involving what Kohberger has filed the other day.

[00:01:02] [SPEAKER_00] We're going to talk about it, but it's not important because this filing he made, this attempt to withdraw his guilty plea is going to go nowhere. Nothing's going to happen to it. It's completely insignificant. So that's a spoiler for this show.

[00:01:19] [SPEAKER_01] There you go. Let's get into it. My name is Anya Kane. I'm a journalist.

[00:01:26] [SPEAKER_00] And I'm Kevin Greenlee. I'm an attorney. And this is The Murder Sheet. We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews and deep dives into murder cases. We're The Murder Sheet.

[00:01:38] [SPEAKER_01] And this is the University of Idaho murders. Can Brian Kohberger withdraw his guilty plea?

[00:01:43] [SPEAKER_00] I think a good place to start would be with a statement that Mr. Kohberger gave to The New York Times.

[00:02:37] [SPEAKER_00] This is a written statement from Mr. Kohberger, a former grad student. And it almost sounds like, you know, I went to school. I was never a grad student. I knew grad students. And there's a certain type of grad student who writes this way in which they it's basically kind of a word salad, lots of big words. And I think perhaps a naive belief that using big words makes you sound really, really smart and clever.

[00:03:06] [SPEAKER_01] It doesn't, folks. And actually, this is why academic writing is so freaking bad. Like, this exact, no, I'm not kidding. The lack of clarity, the, I mean, I love to use big words, right? But, I mean, that's just me. Like, it's got to be clear. It's going to be clear, precise, concise. And this is very endemic of, you know, how that is lost by people who think this sounds smart.

[00:03:34] [SPEAKER_00] Yes, because if writing isn't clear, if the person reading it or hearing it doesn't understand what is trying to be communicated in that piece of writing has failed. I mean, let's be blunt. And also, to a certain extent, the fact that he's trying to sound smart goes against his interests because in his filing, he's trying to act like, oh, I didn't understand this.

[00:03:57] [SPEAKER_01] I'm just a poor country student.

[00:03:59] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah, I was bamboozled by my big city lawyers with their fancy book learning.

[00:04:06] [SPEAKER_01] Oh, that Ann Taylor. She's a shark.

[00:04:09] [SPEAKER_00] Let me read this statement. I don't know if you want to interrupt me at some point during this statement. By all means, do so. Quote, over a year later, it is self-evident that in State v. Kohlberger justice was not served. Unanswered questions seem to multiply with each piece of discovery unsealed, and the public demands the truth.

[00:04:30] [SPEAKER_01] The public knows the truth. Brian, you did this horrible thing, and people are just eager to forget you.

[00:04:35] [SPEAKER_00] Unfortunately, the truth shall never be derived from the state's myopic narrative, a work of fiction, which has yet to evolve since the PCA was released nearly four years ago, and its faulty premises were never challenged at trial.

[00:04:48] [SPEAKER_01] And whose fault is that?

[00:04:51] [SPEAKER_00] Circumnavigated by a broken plea, the trial never provided the public the clarity conducive to closure, and justice shall remain objectively miscarried unless that plea is withdrawn. I hereby declare my intention to enter not guilty plea and welcome the state the opportunity to prove their case at trial, as well as to again file for the death penalty. My actual innocence is my truth, and the plea hinged on by false promises and blatant disinformation must be withdrawn.

[00:05:22] [SPEAKER_00] Thank you for all who believe in my innocence and continue to critically analyze the case, send my love to my family, who have never wavered in their belief in who I am, their belief in my innocence.

[00:05:33] [SPEAKER_01] That's not what the New York Times profile with his sister really gave me the impression of. It was more of like, sorry my freaky brother did this to you people. I'm just going to say this. You know what happened? Brian Kohlberger discovered that he has weird internet fans. That's what happened. That's, I mean.

[00:05:52] [SPEAKER_00] I haven't been following this case super closely since it ended last year, and it did, of course, end last year. I believe also there's like some book that came out that had questions.

[00:06:02] [SPEAKER_01] Ooh, questions, ooh. And I've heard from people, I have no idea if this is true, that some low-rent documentary is going to come out and, you know, blow us all away. I mean, anyone with common sense knows what this case is, you know. You know, some weird dude has a problem with women and slaughtered a bunch of kids over it. It's really kind of a tale as old as time. I mean, it's really not super novel.

[00:06:26] [SPEAKER_01] This guy wanted to be, you know, some kind of serial killer or someone who could pull off an infamous crime and get away with it and be a criminologist professor. Like, oh, I have a dark secret. You know, it's just, it's a pretty obvious, you know, it's pretty obvious to anyone who, like, has half a brain. But a problem with true crime is that there's a significant, you know, very loud minority that doesn't, and here we are. And you can see how he's feeding off of the attention they're giving him in this.

[00:06:56] [SPEAKER_01] You can see how he's, oh, you know, the public is behind me. It's not, sir. It's not. He's not saying comments on anything. I mean, listen, I think there are other cases of people who act like something's a wrongful conviction where it's not, where the public is more swayed by the narrative of innocence.

[00:07:13] [SPEAKER_01] This is a very small minority, and it's also one of those cases where I feel like even people I see who are normally, like, not very good critical thinkers, like, they're not even, like, that into this one.

[00:07:28] [SPEAKER_00] And basically, that big worded statement, this word salad, it's basically saying, hey, a great way to find the truth is to make the state prove its case at a trial. Yeah. He had the option to make the state do that. The state was prepared to do that, and I believe they would have triumphed at that trial.

[00:07:50] [SPEAKER_01] There's no question in my mind.

[00:07:51] [SPEAKER_00] He chose not to make that happen, and this isn't like, you know, buying a car and a couple days later saying, oh, I don't want it anymore. You know, there's no grace period. He entered into this plea deal knowingly. Well, I'm getting ahead of myself. Should I read his filing?

[00:08:11] [SPEAKER_01] Please do.

[00:08:13] [SPEAKER_00] Okay. This is his filing. Quote, it is hereby declared that during attorney-client discussions, most of which included all members of Brian C. Kohberger's immediate family, petitioner was convinced to falsely confess to capital murder and felony burglary by coercion, disinformation, false promises, and withholding of exculpatory discovery. The following is material to the inception of the plea. Okay.

[00:08:43] [SPEAKER_00] I'm stopping reading just to translate that. He is saying, my attorneys gave me false information, disinformation. They made me promises that weren't true. My attorneys knew I didn't do it. They told me to falsely confess, and that's why this happened.

[00:09:08] [SPEAKER_00] And one question a lot of people have is, hey, I thought when he made this plea deal, he said there wouldn't be any appeals. This isn't the traditional appeal. This is more like a motion to correct errors situation. It's kind of like a different kettle of fish because you're saying this is my attorney's fault. Does that make sense?

[00:09:29] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah, it makes sense. It's not an appeal.

[00:09:30] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah. Let's go into it a bit more here. Quote, counsel's failure to inform petitioner of exculpatory discovery received during plea discussions, namely clumps of unknown hair found in Ethan Chapin's hands, as well as a failure of further inquiry. End quote. So he is saying this piece of information that there was some hair in the hands of one of the victims, Mr. Ethan Chapin, that wasn't able to be identified.

[00:09:59] [SPEAKER_00] If only I had known that, I would not have stood up in court and said I was guilty of this offense.

[00:10:08] [SPEAKER_00] All the other evidence, the DNA on the knife sheath, everything else that connects me to that crime, I would have had the confidence and the courage to carry on this fight if only I knew about this hair detail, which was widely reported in the press at the time.

[00:10:32] [SPEAKER_01] Also, which is quite likely. First of all, a clump is inaccurate. And second of all, isn't it widely believed that that is Ethan's own hair or debris that has nothing to do?

[00:10:47] [SPEAKER_00] I've seen that speculated. I don't know if there is a positive identification there. I will say, based on my knowledge in this area, it's not unusual for there to be hair on a victim's hand that is not directly related to the crime. Of course, in the Delphi case, one of the victims had some hair belonging to Kelsey German.

[00:11:08] [SPEAKER_01] Kelsey German, Libby's sister. And that's a situation where it's like you live in a house with people. You're going to get their hair on you. It doesn't matter. And much like this case, you know, Andrew Baldwin in the Delphi case went out and, you know, tantalized the media with unknown hair was found on the victim. And then, like, came back a day later in jury, you know, like, in jury selection. I was like, yeah, well, I mean, it was Kelsey's hair, but, you know.

[00:11:33] [SPEAKER_01] But, you know, like, and it was just one of those things where it was like, okay, so you're just, like, BSing to, I mean, it's the same, it's the same, like, song and dance, you know. Like, ooh, don't look at me. Look over here. And then you look over there and there's nothing. And, I mean, I just, I'm sure, like, that clump of hair comment, you know. And, again, it was the same thing Baldwin was making it out to be almost like one of the victims had, like, you know, like, bought the killer and got a clump of hair in her hand. It was not that at all.

[00:12:02] [SPEAKER_01] You just got to be really careful when you're seeing self-serving things like this come out there to be, like, very skeptical until, you know, you get it. You know, you get something confirmed or denied. But with this, it's just, I just roll my eyes at it. It's just grandstanding. It's nonsense.

[00:12:22] [SPEAKER_00] And I'll give Mr. Kohlberger's attorneys their due. I think they're very experienced. I thought they defended their client aggressively. That does not necessarily mean I agreed with every choice they made, but I don't think they crossed any ethical lines.

[00:12:39] [SPEAKER_01] No, I mean, Ann Taylor is very well regarded. We've heard that again and again. And, again, I don't necessarily, I didn't necessarily agree with everything she did. But in general, I felt like I saw the vision and I feel like I'm just going to be very blunt here because this ticks me off. This nonsense ticks me off. I'm going to be very blunt here. If you don't like that, skip ahead, like, a couple seconds. They saved this guy's creepy ass from the frigging firing squad. Okay? Instead of being grateful for that, which is the best outcome he could have gotten.

[00:13:07] [SPEAKER_01] There was no way this guy was getting acquitted.

[00:13:10] [SPEAKER_00] There's no way he was going to be acquitted.

[00:13:11] [SPEAKER_01] Best case, they get some nut job on the jury and have to do two trials. But he's either looking at life or he is getting his ass sent to the firing squad. So, you know, I think he has a real problem with women. I really, I think it is not, I think it is notable that his defense attorneys were all women. I'm sure that must have driven him crazy. You know?

[00:13:38] [SPEAKER_01] Like, I just think you can, just this guy, everything I've read about him, reports from people who knew him, it just, he was a misogynist. That must have been really emasculating to have a bunch of women working their tails off to save you. And, you know, now it's, oh, they're a bunch of, you know, stupid women who messed up my case. I'm taking it from here, ladies. It just amuses me. I mean, just what a loser. Anyways, go ahead.

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[00:17:13] [SPEAKER_00] I'm going to go back to this document he filed. I should also note before I do that, that he prepared this document himself, and it is handwritten. And anyone who works in the criminal justice system can tell you this is not unusual for people who have been convicted or pled guilty to a crime to file lots of handwritten motions that go nowhere, as this one will go nowhere.

[00:17:42] [SPEAKER_00] It's a part of the process. It's getting attention because of who he is and what this case is. It doesn't really deserve that attention because, again, nothing is going to happen. And a part of me hesitated to talk about it. But I think the fact is, judging from some of the questions we've gotten, this whole thing has raised concerns in the minds of some good people, like, oh, no, is he going to get out?

[00:18:10] [SPEAKER_00] And so a big reason why we're doing that is not to give this man more attention, which, frankly, he does not deserve.

[00:18:16] [SPEAKER_01] No, I'm pissed that we have to name him again.

[00:18:18] [SPEAKER_00] But to assuage and reassure people he's not going to get his trial. He had his shot.

[00:18:27] [SPEAKER_01] Well said.

[00:18:28] [SPEAKER_00] OK, with that, let's read the next paragraph. Two, petitioner was convinced that actual guilt was not an important factor in considering plea acceptance. Death row was imminent and advised to lie. Petitioner was to gain a legal victory in entering a false plea. So he's saying, yes, I said I was guilty. I didn't really mean it. Gosh darn it. My lawyers told me that I would win by committing perjury.

[00:18:57] [SPEAKER_01] Oh, an illegal victory. Actually, I think it's kind of also a personal victory because you're not going to get shot and killed on death after after serving years on death row. Like that's that's a pretty big victory for a person, you know, as as. Screwed as he was going into this trial, as far as the evidence goes.

[00:19:19] [SPEAKER_00] No lawyer, no good lawyer is going to advise. No good lawyer is going to advise his or her client to lie. No, not even if lying is a way to avoid the death penalty. And I do think it is worth noting here. I'm sure all of us remember seeing when this plea agreement was revealed and unveiled in court.

[00:19:45] [SPEAKER_00] The judge asked Mr. Koberger, basically, are you pleading guilty because you are in fact guilty of these offenses? And what did Mr. Koberger say?

[00:19:54] [SPEAKER_01] Yes.

[00:19:54] [SPEAKER_00] So he was admitting his guilt under oath in open court. CNN also posted some paperwork related to his guilty plea, which is filled out by Mr. Koberger. And it's his handwriting. He's he's indicating he understands by pleading guilty. I'm waiving my right to confront witnesses.

[00:20:23] [SPEAKER_00] Uh, he's saying he understands the plea. He understands that he won't be able to, uh, withdraw the plea. He's saying he's satisfied with what his attorneys have done for him. Uh, it seems to me, in other words, that he understood what he was agreeing to. He said in court, I'm guilty.

[00:20:54] [SPEAKER_00] In this paperwork, he clearly indicates he understands when you accept a plea, you're giving up certain rights forever. And he's indicating he is agreeing to this. And I also find it interesting. There's a bunch of questions and statements on the, in this paperwork. He's answering yes or no, but he's also, there's some he's writing in a for not applicable, which indicates he's not just doing this by rote.

[00:21:23] [SPEAKER_00] He's understanding, Oh, I know what this question means. It doesn't apply to me. I don't have to answer it. So it's not a case of a person just not understanding the paperwork. He's not understanding that he is admitting guilt. One of the things on here, uh, quote, are you entering your plea freely and voluntarily? Yes. Uh, are you admitting all the elements of the crimes to which you are pleading guilty? Yes. Yes.

[00:21:49] [SPEAKER_00] Uh, do you understand that if the court accepts your guilty plea, you may not be able to withdraw your plea at a later date? Yes. He knew what he was getting into. He understood this. He writes statements through the New York Times using words like circumnavigated. I think we can expect him to have an understanding of the process. And I don't find it compelling that he was bamboozled by lawyers into lying. What do you think?

[00:22:16] [SPEAKER_01] I don't find it compelling at all, you know? And, uh, I don't know. I really, I can't help but feel that this is for the audience of contrarians and hybristophiles who love him online more than anything. And it's sort of, let's resurrect the case for them and maybe they'll, you know, keep fighting for me in the trenches. And that's, to me, what, what this is not.

[00:22:44] [SPEAKER_01] I mean, this is obviously going to fail on legal merits, but it awakens the, you know, the pro-burger army. That's, I mean, that's what I think it's for.

[00:22:59] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah, it's going to fail on the legal merits.

[00:23:03] [SPEAKER_01] You can't also, like, people, like, I don't know. We were talking about the other day, like, lawyers, like, form, right? Yeah. And that's important to lawyers. And, like, you know, if you, if you, um, if you say, confess under oath or testify under oath, but then you go around saying something different not under oath, but then you refuse to say that under oath. You know, that can confuse, I think, lay people. Like, well, that seems like a big deal.

[00:23:26] [SPEAKER_01] But, like, why, why is the whole oath thing and doing this under oath and saying yes under oath when you're asked if you did this? Why is that highly significant to you?

[00:23:37] [SPEAKER_00] Well, it's because he is in court. When you're in court and you're saying things under oath, it's under the penalty of perjury. It's not just going on TV or talking to a reporter and saying something. It has that higher standard.

[00:23:55] [SPEAKER_01] And here's a question for you with that. So people I've seen, you know, I understand why they think this, but they're like, oh, man, if only the prosecution had made him alley-cute. But then, you know, then this wouldn't even be an issue. But why does that not matter at all?

[00:24:11] [SPEAKER_00] Even if he doesn't go into all the details of what he did, he is admitting it all when he says, I'm guilty of these offenses of which I am charged. I'm guilty of every element of these offenses. It's still an admission.

[00:24:27] [SPEAKER_01] So I think it's important to draw a line between, on the one hand, when we're talking about that, that's more of to convince the public. I think the public, in my experience, in this case, is already pretty well convinced. But it's to convince, you know, the Japanese soldiers on the island who don't realize World War II is over. You know, I think that's when people are talking about the importance of that. It's for that.

[00:24:52] [SPEAKER_01] And it's frankly for people's interest and their interest in the case and why would he do this and what happened. And they want that information. And I don't begrudge anyone for wanting that information. But we have to draw a line between our own interest and convincing stupid people of things. And like, I don't know, like what matters legally. And I just want to be very clear. This doesn't matter. I mean, it wouldn't have mattered. He could have done that and then gone back and said, well, no, I didn't do it.

[00:25:22] [SPEAKER_01] What matters is that he pled guilty. He said he did it. He filled out this paperwork. That's the thing that is a problem for him. Not the level of detail he goes into about it.

[00:25:33] [SPEAKER_00] Yes. And I also were talking about the odds of success he has, of the odds this might go anywhere. I remember I saw on News Nation an attorney. I apologize if I mispronounce his name because he has a great quote. The ones I say this quote, it'll probably stick in your mind as firmly as it is lodged in my mind. I think on my deathbed, I might come out with this quote, you know, next week when I pass away. You'll never die.

[00:26:02] [SPEAKER_01] You'll never die. Don't say that, okay? You've got to be here with me forever. Things are going to really go off the rails.

[00:26:07] [SPEAKER_00] The defense attorney, again, I apologize, Mark Eiglarsch. He was on Chris Cuomo's program last night. I didn't see the interview. I read an article recapping of it. Mr. Eiglarsch, and again, I'm very sorry. So you said such a great thing. He said, quote, the chances of Kohlberger having this granted are so low and remote, I would equate it to Bigfoot finally riding a unicorn.

[00:26:39] [SPEAKER_00] That's funny. That's a great quote. I think that's a pretty accurate summary of the chances of success that Mr. Kohlberger has.

[00:26:50] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah. I looked up, I mean, if that's a good transition.

[00:26:54] [SPEAKER_00] We're not done with his filing yet. Oh, I'm sorry.

[00:26:57] [SPEAKER_01] We're still fighting our way through the filing. Go ahead. Do you want me to duck in here, though, and say cases where that has happened, or do you want me to wait?

[00:27:04] [SPEAKER_00] Why don't you wait? Okay. Uh, three. Again, this is me reading Mr. Kohlberger's own words. Three. A gross misrepresentation of and promises regarding what a life sentence would immediately afford Petitioner. And a gross misrepresentation of death row in Idaho, including an elaborate fabricated story of counsel's horrific experience touring an actual 8x8 death row cell,

[00:27:32] [SPEAKER_00] all communicated to Petitioner and his family, allegedly by IDOC through counsel, thus constituting threats and promises to induce a plea agreement, end quote. So he seems to be saying, you know, life, a life sentence in prison isn't as great as I thought.

[00:27:53] [SPEAKER_01] Kind of sucks. And this trip advisor is getting a bad review.

[00:28:00] [SPEAKER_00] And the whole reason I agreed to it is that somebody told me the death row was even worse. And I'm not sure it is.

[00:28:07] [SPEAKER_01] Maybe you should have thought of that before you slaughtered four kids for no reason.

[00:28:11] [SPEAKER_00] I think a person of average intelligence should have an understanding that life in prison is not going to be like going to a resort. And death row is worse than life in prison.

[00:28:32] [SPEAKER_00] Well, I mean, I don't think getting the information about what death row is like is a threat or promise to induce a plea agreement.

[00:28:45] [SPEAKER_01] No, it's getting you information so you can make an informed decision, frankly. I would want to know what I was up against at every turn if I were in this situation, although I'm not a freak who killed four kids, you know, like but I think that's your lawyers doing due diligence. There's also been like stuff. I remember it was like when they were going about, oh, he has autism spectrum disorder. That explains all of this. And, you know, which it obviously does. And I'm being sarcastic there. You know, they were like, oh, it's very hard to talk to him.

[00:29:13] [SPEAKER_01] Like, I think this guy was just a nightmare client, honestly. I mean, I have to imagine a lot of the sexism came into that and just his own unpleasant, you know, not a gem of a human being here. So I imagine there was a lot of like, you know, I imagine what I'm envisioning is defense attorneys trying to do their best, trying to fight vigorously for him, who are saying like, yeah, well, you know, like.

[00:29:40] [SPEAKER_01] Like, if you get death, like, here's what this looks like. It's not very good. And also like life would be more like this. And I mean, that's their job. I don't see how that's their fault or them doing something bad. And this is where you get the classic. I mean, this is like the peak innocence fraud because you get the innocence fraud where it's like the police are evil. The prosecutors are evil.

[00:30:04] [SPEAKER_01] You know, it's like up to 11 when you've got the defense attorneys in on the conspiracy to frame poor little Brian Koberger. You know, everyone in Idaho is just in on this thing. Like, that's where that's where like you see certain cases get to that point where they're even accusing the defense attorneys who like fought for this guy of being malicious and being doing some malfeasance.

[00:30:32] [SPEAKER_01] And it's just it's kind of amusing, but it's also kind of not because I think it's really corrosive.

[00:30:39] [SPEAKER_00] Well, in this case, because he agreed in his plea deal not to file a regular appeal. There's only so many avenues for him to go down if he wants to try to fight this and change what happened.

[00:30:56] [SPEAKER_01] Because you realize like life in prison really is very fun.

[00:30:59] [SPEAKER_00] Pretty much the easiest, most logical one available for him is to go after his attorneys in a filing like this.

[00:31:07] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah, I mean, he's basically realizing this is the rest of his life and it's going to be miserable. So throwing a Hail Mary at this point, you know, for someone like this who won't admit any sort of responsibility for his own actions and how they landed him here is, you know, it makes sense.

[00:31:27] [SPEAKER_01] You know, this is not a this is not a person who I mean, I don't think someone like this is capable of rehabilitation or feeling sorry for the people he killed or feeling sorry for their families. I think this is just. A really unfeeling person who is continuing, you know, and also I think there's a level of like he wants attention. Here's that attention you ordered, you know, and I think that that's part of the reason why he did the crime.

[00:31:52] [SPEAKER_01] And I think it's also a benefit here where he's basically throwing out the signal to the dead enders who still support him. You know, I want your help. Basically, the public wants to know the answers. You know, just like this nonsense. Yeah, the public got the answers.

[00:32:08] [SPEAKER_00] You know, you said you found a couple of cases where guilty pleas were withdrawn. Oh, but before you say that, I mentioned a famous case yesterday to you as we were walking where a person tried to withdraw a guilty plea and you said I should mention that.

[00:32:24] [SPEAKER_01] Do you want to mention after mine? Because mine are not very exciting. Yours is kind of like a more of a razzmatazz case.

[00:32:30] [SPEAKER_00] It's not really razzmatazz, but you do yours.

[00:32:32] [SPEAKER_01] It's a really vile person who did something absolutely awful and horrific, killed a really important person and was very corrosive to our society. But mine are quieter cases that you don't really hear a lot about. So one of my cases is the case of a man named Samuel N. Reese. And this became a Missouri state case. I think it was like state versus Reese.

[00:33:00] [SPEAKER_01] And he and a guy who was working with him, they murdered a bunch of people. They killed John E. Krieger on November 16th, 1951 at the Winder Hotel in St. Louis during a robbery. And they also killed George Zagib, who was a 55-year-old liquor store clerk in 1951. So they're doing these robberies. And Dillard Wren, who was the accomplice, got like 15 years.

[00:33:27] [SPEAKER_01] And then Reese got the death penalty. And from what I can tell about what the issue here was, was that Reese pled guilty to the murder of Krieger and the murder of Zagib and then also, I think, an additional armed robbery. But it was later found that he had a very low IQ.

[00:33:55] [SPEAKER_01] And given that, higher courts were concerned that the court never really made sure that his plea was voluntary. And he was later saying it was not. So they overturned it. Now...

[00:34:08] [SPEAKER_00] When was this?

[00:34:08] [SPEAKER_01] This was in 1972.

[00:34:11] [SPEAKER_00] So this was a long time ago. And I think certainly in the years since then, you will hear courts and judges really go to often extraordinary lengths to make sure that when someone is accepting a plea deal, that person completely understands what they are agreeing to. Maybe they're doing that at least partially because of this decision. They don't want it to be overturned.

[00:34:37] [SPEAKER_00] In this case, not only was there this paperwork that Mr. Kohlberger filled out, but the judge asked him a bunch of questions in court. In our own closer to home, I remember we were in court when Kagan Klein pled guilty to a variety of offenses involving the sexual exploitation of children. And the judge really walked him through all of that to make sure he understood exactly what he was agreeing to.

[00:35:02] [SPEAKER_00] So this is just my way of saying, I think the circumstances in that case which led to that guilty plea being withdrawn, I would not expect those circumstances to occur that often, if at all, anymore, because people have learned from it.

[00:35:17] [SPEAKER_01] Yes. And again, these cases were in the 50s. This case was in the 50s. He was, I think, re-sentenced to life in prison, given parole in 1976, and then ultimately died in 1990. So this guy was low IQ, and I just want to point out that Brian Kohberger, now I'm not erasing the struggles of people who have things like OCD or autism or anything like that.

[00:35:41] [SPEAKER_01] But there is a marked difference as far as the law is concerned with someone who is low IQ and may not understand what they're doing at different parts of the process, like giving a wrongful confession or, you know. I mean, I think it's pretty clear that Reese did it, by the way. But I mean, but certainly the courts felt his rights were violated. And, you know, so this is a situation where Kohlberger doesn't have that. He doesn't have that issue.

[00:36:09] [SPEAKER_01] He, in fact, is, you know, doing it very well academically and was even seeking higher education and seeking a Ph.D. in criminology. So none of that points to the issue that was raised in this Reese case. Now let's go to the other case. This is a really horrifying one out of Ohio. And this was a spree killer.

[00:36:30] [SPEAKER_01] So June 10th, 2017, a man named George Brinkman takes his friend, Suzanne Taylor, his childhood friend, and her two daughters, Taylor Pifer and Kylie Pifer. He takes them captive in North Royalton, Ohio. He ties them up and he brutally kills the mother in front of her two daughters.

[00:36:52] [SPEAKER_01] And then by stabbing her in the heart, slitting her throat, and then murders the other two by smothering them with a pillow and strangling one with a phone cord. And then he goes to another house that was in North Royalton, Ohio. Next one is Lake Township. And he goes to the home of Rogel or Jean John and Roberta Bobby John. And he knew these people for years. He was friends with them.

[00:37:21] [SPEAKER_01] And he shot them both to death there. So this is a spree killing. And he pled guilty to the first set of murders, the North Royalton murders. And that was in November 2018. And he also pled guilty to the Lake Township murders in October 2019. And he was sentenced to death for the North Royalton ones. And also to the second set. So he's got two death row convictions.

[00:37:49] [SPEAKER_01] But what happened in the North Royalton case. So he, what they basically said was the Ohio Supreme Court ruled on it in 2021. And what they said is that his conviction was vacated because he did not, they did not feel he had full understanding that when he pled guilty, he would not, he would be waiving his rights to confront any witnesses against him.

[00:38:18] [SPEAKER_01] And that he would be waiving his right to force the state to prove his guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. So he, but he remains sentenced to death. He remains on death row because he was convicted on other things. Yeah. I mean, and he admitted to doing these things. So it's not, his guilt and innocence is really not up for debate.

[00:38:40] [SPEAKER_00] Mr. Kohlberger explicitly indicated, certainly in the paperwork that he understood, that by pleading guilty, he wasn't going to be able to confront witnesses. And he was relieving the state of its burden to prove his guilt.

[00:38:52] [SPEAKER_01] And I believe they actually had a second trial for the, the additional murders. And, you know, I think, I, you know, I think he was ultimately convicted. So, I mean, yeah, it didn't really change the outcome. It's very, it's very sad. You know, I mean, it's, these cases are very sad. And I guess the judge in the North Royalton case actually failed to advise him of his rights before he pled guilty, according to the higher court.

[00:39:21] [SPEAKER_01] So, you know, this is, these are cases where somebody was successfully able to say like, yeah, I pled guilty, but I want it undone. But you can see that those have pretty specific circumstances that really do not align with what we're seeing here at all. Because in this case, I really felt that Judge Stephen Hippler was very meticulous, was very much, I remember watching the hearing where he's asking him, like, are, you know, are you sure? Are you sure? Are you sure? And, you know, seems like a very careful judge.

[00:39:51] [SPEAKER_01] And I just also don't buy this narrative about the defense team, like, dragooning him into this.

[00:40:00] [SPEAKER_00] So, I want to quickly mention this case I alluded to. This is the, refers to the case of the assassination of Martin Luther King Jr. Is, the assassination of Martin Luther King Jr. is complicated and it has all sorts of twists and turns. Maybe someday it is worth covering on his own episode or episodes.

[00:40:23] [SPEAKER_00] There are parts about it that upset me, including the fact that in the end, James Earl Ray, the confessed assassin of Mr. Confessed assassin of Dr. King, was able to convince Dr. King's family that he was innocent when he was not. But, all that can be saved for another day.

[00:40:48] [SPEAKER_00] Just for today, I wanted to say that James Earl Ray flees. He's caught. He confesses to killing Dr. Martin Luther King. He pleads guilty. He gets sentenced for like 99 years. And then a couple of days later, he says, uh, I'm going to withdraw that plea and have a trial.

[00:41:09] [SPEAKER_00] And he spends the rest of his life trying to withdraw that guilty plea and making vague sounds about there being a conspiracy. Oh, the real person behind it was a guy named Raul. I can't say more than that. Uh, so.

[00:41:26] [SPEAKER_01] That's his big argument. A guy named Raul?

[00:41:29] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah, he implicates a guy named Raul.

[00:41:33] [SPEAKER_01] Did he say which one? Which Raul?

[00:41:36] [SPEAKER_00] Raul is Raul. So, that's that case. That's just another instance of a person making a plea or a deal and then trying to get out of it once faced with the consequences of that plea deal.

[00:41:53] [SPEAKER_01] You know, I mean, I just, I would just encourage people, like, sometimes I feel like people I see talking about stuff like this and they're like, oh, but why would he do that? He must, he must have a reason. It must be true. This is self-serving. What, what that assassin did was self-serving. What any of these people are doing is self-serving.

[00:42:16] [SPEAKER_01] When you're in a situation where you're stuck in prison for years or on death row, you have a reason to try to make your situation better. And that can mean undoing a plea because you, you know, this isn't what I want and this is bad. I don't like my life. I might as well shoot my shot here. So, I mean, I just think it's important to remember that a lot of this stuff is always just going to be self-serving. I don't, you know.

[00:42:44] [SPEAKER_01] Brian Koberger doesn't care about the truth in this case. If he did, he would just, he would allocate himself, you know, and explain why he did this horrible thing to Kaylee Gonsalves, Madison Mogan, Xander Kernodel, and Ethan Chapin, who did not deserve what happened to them, who should be here now. But, you know, this nonsense, this self-pitying nonsense, I mean, I wish we could ignore it. I really do.

[00:43:09] [SPEAKER_01] I feel like it gets so much coverage that we need to cover it and answer questions and kind of discuss it with all of you. But I'm just kind of, I'm just disgusted with even having to talk about it, to be honest.

[00:43:21] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah.

[00:43:22] [SPEAKER_01] I just see it as just this malignant person just continuing to try to milk out as much attention as he can get from the case. And, you know, but it's a situation where if we don't cover it and then people come to the wrong conclusion on it or, you know, make it more important or think, oh, this means he's innocent, then I think we'd be derelict in our duty as far as talking about the case, given that we've covered it extensively in the past.

[00:43:51] [SPEAKER_00] Do we have anything more to say about this?

[00:43:53] [SPEAKER_01] I don't. But, yeah, I mean, we'll monitor the situation, I guess. How about you?

[00:43:58] [SPEAKER_00] I'm done.

[00:44:00] [SPEAKER_01] All right. Well, thank you all so much for listening.

[00:44:04] [SPEAKER_00] Thanks so much for listening to The Murder Sheet. If you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover, please email us at murdersheet at gmail.com. If you have actionable information about an unsolved crime, please report it to the appropriate authorities.

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[00:44:48] [SPEAKER_00] Special thanks to Kevin Tyler Greenlee, who composed the music for The Murder Sheet, and who you can find on the web at kevintg.com.

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