You Never Can Forget: The FBI Files: 302s and Cleaning Crews

[00:00:00] [SPEAKER_03]: Content Warning, this episode contains discussion of the brutal murder of four young people.

[00:00:06] [SPEAKER_02]: 45 years ago, a nightmare began for four families when four young employees disappeared from the Bergeshev restaurant on Crawfordsville Road in Speedway, Indiana.

[00:00:16] [SPEAKER_03]: They were taken on November 17th around midnight. They were driven miles away to rural Johnson County and likely killed in the very early morning hours of November 18th.

[00:00:27] [SPEAKER_03]: Their bodies were found on November 19th. Their case has never been solved.

[00:00:32] [SPEAKER_02]: The crime scene was brutal. 20-year-old assistant manager Jane Freight was stabbed to death.

[00:00:38] [SPEAKER_02]: 17-year-old Ruth Shelton and 16-year-old Danny Davis were shot execution style.

[00:00:44] [SPEAKER_02]: 16-year-old Mark Flemmons is fixated on his own blood after he fell unconscious upon sustaining injuries to his face and nose.

[00:00:53] [SPEAKER_03]: Kevin and I met working on this case. It means a lot to us. This past year, we were thrilled to finally receive the FBI's case file on the Bergeshev murders that Kevin has been waiting years for.

[00:01:05] [SPEAKER_02]: The Federal Bureau of Investigation only worked the Bergeshev murders case for a few days. They did a lot of groundwork.

[00:01:13] [SPEAKER_02]: They released scores of redacted documents to us that give us a good indication of the very early days of the investigation.

[00:01:19] [SPEAKER_03]: We went over it all with a researcher who we regard as one of the best on the Bergeshev case. We call him Hank on the show.

[00:01:28] [SPEAKER_03]: Not only is he great at finding out information, he also has a law enforcement background too.

[00:01:33] [SPEAKER_03]: We recorded this a while back, closer to when the FBI files were released.

[00:01:37] [SPEAKER_03]: Hank throws out page numbers, so feel free to follow along at home, although we'll be providing additional context to keep you filled in.

[00:01:45] [SPEAKER_03]: But if you want, we've included a link to the documents in our show notes.

[00:01:49] [SPEAKER_03]: My name is Anya Kane. I'm a journalist.

[00:01:52] [SPEAKER_02]: And I'm Kevin Greenlee. I'm an attorney.

[00:01:55] [SPEAKER_02]: And this is The Murder Sheet.

[00:01:56] [SPEAKER_02]: We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews and deep dives into murder cases.

[00:02:03] [SPEAKER_02]: We're The Murder Sheet.

[00:02:05] [SPEAKER_03]: And this is You Never Can Forget, the FBI Files 302s and Cleaning Crews.

[00:02:57] [SPEAKER_02]: Let's jump back into our conversation with Hank.

[00:02:59] [SPEAKER_02]: We were talking about Alan Pruitt. Pruitt is frankly a problematic witness in the Bergeshev case.

[00:03:07] [SPEAKER_02]: He came forward in the early 1980s with a story about seeing Tim Willoughby and Jeff Reed abduct the employees.

[00:03:15] [SPEAKER_02]: Willoughby at this point was missing.

[00:03:18] [SPEAKER_02]: He's not been seen since 1978, although the body of his girlfriend, Mary Ann Higginbossum, was discovered in 1979.

[00:03:25] [SPEAKER_02]: Reed, on the other hand, was a local musician and rabble rouser who some say actually confessed to the murders at different times.

[00:03:33] [SPEAKER_03]: Meanwhile, Pruitt changed his story many times later in life.

[00:03:37] [SPEAKER_03]: That being said, an independent witness did confirm seeing him there on the night of the abductions.

[00:03:42] [SPEAKER_03]: He was wandering in between the Dunkin Donuts parking lot and the parking lot of the neighboring Bergeshev.

[00:03:48] [SPEAKER_03]: Pruitt remains an enigmatic figure in the case.

[00:03:51] [SPEAKER_03]: Was he telling the truth about what he saw? Was he lying about certain details, such as the identity of the abductors?

[00:03:59] [SPEAKER_03]: Was he lying to cover up something that he was involved in?

[00:04:02] [SPEAKER_03]: Or was he just a consummate liar making up details as he went for no other reason than to get a rise out of the police?

[00:04:08] [SPEAKER_03]: Keep in mind, Hank will soon refer to Dub and the robbery gang.

[00:04:13] [SPEAKER_03]: Let's break down the robbery gang theory in anticipation of that.

[00:04:16] [SPEAKER_02]: State police detective Ken York put forward the theory that Greg Stanky, Tim Picchioni, John Deffenbaugh, David Cathcart and SW Wilkins committed the murders.

[00:04:28] [SPEAKER_02]: Stanky, Picchione and Deffenbaugh were at the very least part of a robbery crew that targeted Bergeshev's and KFC's on the south side of Indianapolis.

[00:04:37] [SPEAKER_02]: Cathcart was friends with them and even gave an affidavit saying he almost became involved in a robbery on the south side on the very night of the abduction.

[00:04:47] [SPEAKER_02]: Wilkins, on the other hand, poses a bit of a problem for this theory.

[00:04:54] [SPEAKER_02]: He was much older than the rest of the crew.

[00:04:57] [SPEAKER_02]: He also was never linked to any other robberies, was never charged with anything like that.

[00:05:01] [SPEAKER_02]: Still, he's a crucial part of the theory given that York posited that Wilkins knew Jane Free because he worked with her father and that therefore somehow explains the robbery turned homicide.

[00:05:13] [SPEAKER_02]: It's also worth noting that Wilkins actually had a son with the same name as himself and his son actually was roughly the same age as some of the other members of the robbery gang.

[00:05:26] [SPEAKER_03]: Here's one thing with Alan. I think people kind of have the impression that, oh, so much time was wasted on Alan.

[00:05:31] [SPEAKER_03]: They looked into him for years. They didn't try him in the press.

[00:05:37] [SPEAKER_02]: They didn't do a forester.

[00:05:38] [SPEAKER_03]: They did not do a forester. They actually, I think, handled that pretty responsibly.

[00:05:43] [SPEAKER_03]: A lot of the stuff that's focused on Alan recently has been from, frankly, you and I, Kevin.

[00:05:47] [SPEAKER_03]: So, I mean, that's a modern day phenomenon.

[00:05:51] [SPEAKER_03]: It's not as if that, I feel like, took up a lot of energy over other things at the time.

[00:05:57] [SPEAKER_03]: I think forester, if you want to say forester did, then I think that is fair.

[00:06:02] [SPEAKER_03]: That was a hot mess.

[00:06:03] [SPEAKER_01]: Yep.

[00:06:05] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, yeah. Yeah. And it's, you know, that was as hot of a mess as the robbery gang, honestly.

[00:06:14] [SPEAKER_03]: I'll say, I, the only reason I disagree a little bit, I think there's no way for me that forester was involved.

[00:06:25] [SPEAKER_03]: I could see the robbery gang being involved in some scenarios and I think that's a worthy theory, even though I think Ken York made a lot of statements, the press that he couldn't back up.

[00:06:35] [SPEAKER_03]: But forester, I'm like, no.

[00:06:37] [SPEAKER_01]: It is interesting while we're on the topic of the robbery gang, Dub at all.

[00:06:45] [SPEAKER_01]: There is only one reference to them I found in this entire 414 pages.

[00:06:53] [SPEAKER_01]: And I'm sure that's probably something that Ken York mentioned to somebody.

[00:07:02] [SPEAKER_01]: It was literally one, I believe it was a memorandum or maybe an interoffice, telex or something like that.

[00:07:09] [SPEAKER_01]: But that was it. I mean, that was the one thing where I saw them mention it.

[00:07:14] [SPEAKER_01]: It was just like a passing mention and that was pretty much the end of it.

[00:07:22] [SPEAKER_01]: But I don't know if you guys saw this or not where I referred to the whole insistence that Dub was a bearded man as like Baghdad Bob.

[00:07:32] [SPEAKER_01]: Like why is that when the evidence is there for the world to see?

[00:07:44] [SPEAKER_01]: Why stick with it so hard?

[00:07:46] [SPEAKER_01]: I think that's a good thing to do.

[00:07:46] It was a little bit of a hard work.

[00:07:47] [SPEAKER_01]: Unless there's some big thing that nobody knows about.

[00:07:50] [SPEAKER_01]: But I just don't see how that's possible because they're like, well, yeah, he's, he's the dog catcher and everything.

[00:07:55] [SPEAKER_01]: And he, you know, he didn't even catch dogs in that area.

[00:07:57] [SPEAKER_01]: He worked for the city of Franklin.

[00:07:58] [SPEAKER_01]: He didn't. Yeah.

[00:07:59] [SPEAKER_01]: There was no Johnson County animal control as there is now in 78.

[00:08:04] [SPEAKER_01]: It was a huge problem. Like there was straight animals running around all over the place. They

[00:08:07] [SPEAKER_01]: didn't have an animal shelter. Earlier this year, I actually went through every single issue of the

[00:08:14] [SPEAKER_01]: Daily Journal from January 1 to 78, all the way to the end of the year. And that was like a recurring

[00:08:20] [SPEAKER_01]: theme was we got all these animals running around loose and you know, other than the

[00:08:25] [SPEAKER_01]: Blizzard and all that whatnot. That was like one of the major things which was fascinating.

[00:08:32] [SPEAKER_03]: One thing that Hank observed was that the FBI files do not focus on what we'd call some of the major

[00:08:38] [SPEAKER_03]: theories of the case, like the Pruitt Siding or the robbery game. There are a few references to

[00:08:43] [SPEAKER_03]: Donald Forrester, a rapist who made two faulty confessions about the case in the 1980s though.

[00:08:49] [SPEAKER_01]: Despite all the redactions, I think these have so much value because they're

[00:08:55] [SPEAKER_01]: in proximity of time, they're so close to the actual events. I was actually somewhat struck by

[00:09:02] [SPEAKER_03]: the fact that a lot of the stories actually are pretty similar to what people have told us in some

[00:09:07] [SPEAKER_03]: respects. You know like actually that you know I mean with a few exceptions there's really not

[00:09:14] [SPEAKER_03]: huge variations for the most part. Right. A lot of it tracks and then we see some references

[00:09:21] [SPEAKER_01]: to some early possible suspects between pages 47 and 54. There's some lead information in there about

[00:09:34] [SPEAKER_01]: a few inmates that escaped from an Ohio Department of Corrections facility, pretty well placed in

[00:09:41] [SPEAKER_01]: Cincinnati holding someone hostage at like 1130 that night so I don't believe it was them.

[00:09:47] [SPEAKER_01]: On page 45 we see that a coat, the shirt and both purses. I think this is with some

[00:09:56] [SPEAKER_01]: reference some of the evidence that they processed at the FBI lab

[00:10:00] [SPEAKER_01]: was were actually we that was confirmed they were found in the office.

[00:10:05] [SPEAKER_01]: I think the coat was probably Ruth's and they plaid shirt, the big mirf. That was probably

[00:10:09] [SPEAKER_01]: Danny's based on some of what I read. I did want to throw this in there and you guys might

[00:10:15] [SPEAKER_01]: find this interesting that I see these it's so funny because I see these every day and this is 45 years

[00:10:20] [SPEAKER_01]: later. On page 61 we have what are basically prints from NCIC IDACs bulletins and it's just so funny

[00:10:32] [SPEAKER_01]: because even today if you pull one of these up they look the same. I mean the formatting the

[00:10:39] [SPEAKER_01]: ORI number which an ORI number is like every agency has an ORI numbers and Speedway PD still

[00:10:45] [SPEAKER_01]: has that ORI number today. So it's just so funny because even in 2023 if I like get a

[00:10:54] [SPEAKER_01]: like a hit on something on my computer it's just like it still looks like that and so that's like

[00:11:00] [SPEAKER_01]: some super cop nerd stuff but and part of that might be and this might have to do with the reason

[00:11:06] [SPEAKER_01]: that like the BNV files like there are certain days and hours and hours of days that like we

[00:11:12] [SPEAKER_01]: all joke that you like you can't do any police work during these hours because BNV is down.

[00:11:16] [SPEAKER_01]: When I worked weekends there was like consistently there was a period of time on Sunday when BNV

[00:11:21] [SPEAKER_01]: was down and you couldn't do anything so it's just it's so funny because these computer systems

[00:11:27] [SPEAKER_01]: like we a lot of people think it's like what you see on like some of these TV shows where it's

[00:11:30] [SPEAKER_01]: all you know cool and touch screens everything this stuff's archaic. I'll be honest with you

[00:11:36] [SPEAKER_01]: this these inlets that we use some of this stuff is very archaic it's like it runs on a you know

[00:11:46] [SPEAKER_01]: 3270 mainframe for you know Kevin might know what that is I don't know.

[00:11:51] [SPEAKER_03]: They're losing for your time. Yeah. What was it I'm seeing though on the first one it says 16-24

[00:11:57] [SPEAKER_03]: hours is that yeah 4-20. Oh yeah so I wanted to cover that so that's actually that that's

[00:12:02] [SPEAKER_01]: actually the later bulletin and that was part of my notes here and it's probably so far back

[00:12:06] [SPEAKER_01]: that I've gone and skipped over it yeah because I'm seeing notes about the shoes and why there's

[00:12:12] [SPEAKER_03]: just so much bulletin out I'm trying to find that there is just so much there's just so

[00:12:17] [SPEAKER_01]: much of this stuff like we might have to do this like 50 times to get all this stuff in here

[00:12:21] [SPEAKER_01]: we know based on if you go back to page 14 this is the first time I saw it in this package

[00:12:26] [SPEAKER_01]: of docs and this is the this is the NCIC Bulls there's two of them there's one from about 4 a.m

[00:12:35] [SPEAKER_01]: on a non-November 18th of 1978 and then there's a second one that comes out later at 4 24 p.m.

[00:12:44] [SPEAKER_01]: So the first one we see is the bulletin for attempt to locate the four employees

[00:12:51] [SPEAKER_01]: back in the day before people had computers in their cars they would actually put this out

[00:12:55] [SPEAKER_01]: on the radio so you know we don't about the only thing we get on the radio nowadays are

[00:13:01] [SPEAKER_01]: like amber alerts and you know your real hot shot calls like shots fired or somebody's getting shot

[00:13:05] [SPEAKER_01]: or whatever but it used to be even you know 20 25 years ago you would have let's say had a line

[00:13:12] [SPEAKER_01]: of duty death or an officer that that passed away the state police post would actually put

[00:13:17] [SPEAKER_01]: this stuff out over the radio for people to hear because you know there was a time not that

[00:13:22] [SPEAKER_01]: long ago and we all didn't have computers so we can see based on this message I can speak from

[00:13:27] [SPEAKER_01]: experience on this this was sent out by speed by speedway PDs idax which is Indiana data and

[00:13:35] [SPEAKER_01]: communication system slash NCIC national crime information center terminal at 4 25 a.m on November

[00:13:43] [SPEAKER_01]: 18th 1978 by dine who would later become the police chief in speedway but he apparently was a

[00:13:50] [SPEAKER_01]: dispatcher at least that night so what this tells me is it by 4 25 in the morning at the absolute

[00:13:56] [SPEAKER_01]: latest they consider this an abduction slash kidnapped situation how does that track with you

[00:14:02] [SPEAKER_03]: in terms of one of the most famous aspects of the case are infamous perhaps they let the crime

[00:14:08] [SPEAKER_03]: scene slip away by the allowing the cleaning crew in and treating it so poorly oh that's the next

[00:14:17] [SPEAKER_01]: one you're gonna ask him when was the go ahead to clean up give it had to be between

[00:14:24] [SPEAKER_01]: when brian got there at just after midnight and 4 20 a.m and this brings up another another point

[00:14:32] [SPEAKER_01]: ginger in her 302 she says brian dropped her off at 12 15 was it 12 15 or was it midnight

[00:14:42] [SPEAKER_01]: because brian said he would late and we'll never know the answer to that but it seems

[00:14:46] [SPEAKER_01]: based on her you know what she said here in recent years is if she would got home one minute

[00:14:52] [SPEAKER_01]: past midnight she was in deep trouble so i just wonder you know i wonder was it 12 15 was it midnight

[00:14:59] [SPEAKER_01]: and i also didn't notice anything when they spoke to her or brian about them driving past

[00:15:05] [SPEAKER_01]: the restaurant on the way to drop her off it was all later stuff that happened

[00:15:12] [SPEAKER_02]: only possible illusion to that that i could think of was we have brian crane calling danie davis

[00:15:18] [SPEAKER_02]: his parents and perhaps telling them the car was not there at 11 30 right so that could be a reference

[00:15:24] [SPEAKER_02]: to when he and ginger drove by but as they're driving by the restaurant at 11 30 i don't know

[00:15:29] [SPEAKER_02]: why it would take until 12 15 for him to drop her off yeah um so that's a minor discrepancy

[00:15:37] [SPEAKER_01]: i mean and this is all witness this is all i witness stuff i mean i asked people even today

[00:15:41] [SPEAKER_01]: stuff that i work on it's like it's hard it's really hard um you know you you can get

[00:15:51] [SPEAKER_01]: two totally it's really funny now because we've got all this surveillance video and it's just like

[00:15:57] [SPEAKER_01]: you can get somebody tell you one thing somebody tell you another thing and then you

[00:15:59] [SPEAKER_01]: look at the video and it's like completely not happened that way but oh talking to me when people

[00:16:05] [SPEAKER_03]: put so much faith in that or put so much like emphasis on oh well this person said something

[00:16:10] [SPEAKER_03]: different so then it must be you know and it's like you were humans were so fallible it's hubris

[00:16:17] [SPEAKER_03]: to think that um you know yeah for sure and this many in this many years later it's like

[00:16:22] [SPEAKER_01]: but going back again to why i think these documents are important is because it gives us

[00:16:27] [SPEAKER_01]: that picture of basically the day not the day well the murder is probably in all likelihood

[00:16:35] [SPEAKER_01]: happened on the 18th so this gives us this picture into november 19 1978 before anybody knew that

[00:16:45] [SPEAKER_03]: the kids were even dead given you know giving your own law enforcement background what do you

[00:16:50] [SPEAKER_03]: think of the you know the quickness or the the kind of speed with which they you know

[00:16:55] [SPEAKER_03]: realize something was wrong i guess it strikes me that you know the four the four a.m. hour comes

[00:17:01] [SPEAKER_03]: and they're like uh oh but then also the speed with which they handed over their crime scene to

[00:17:05] [SPEAKER_03]: a cleaning crew like how freaking important was that i mean like i mean like i just the yeah

[00:17:11] [SPEAKER_01]: that makes me want to bang my head against the wall to me that is so baffling because if they knew

[00:17:17] [SPEAKER_01]: at i mean we see this this message go out and the the terminal don't lie so at at the

[00:17:24] [SPEAKER_01]: absolute latest at 4 25 a.m because this is when it was sent from the terminal they know that

[00:17:32] [SPEAKER_01]: this is a kidnapped abduction slash kidnap slash robbery when did they give the green light to

[00:17:37] [SPEAKER_01]: clean because the thing is i don't think with all the employees being gone at midnight i doubt very

[00:17:43] [SPEAKER_01]: much that robber gill yet is going to call in another crew to finish the cleanup i mean my

[00:17:50] [SPEAKER_01]: understanding was they finished the cleanup in the morning in preparation for opening so oh my

[00:17:55] [SPEAKER_03]: god yeah and i mean i'm gonna say this kevin might want me to cut it out but like uh this all the

[00:18:01] [SPEAKER_03]: smacks of lazy incompetence from speedway because yes something's not adding up here we

[00:18:06] [SPEAKER_03]: know we're hearing the speed i mean we heard that like regional managers were being called on a

[00:18:12] [SPEAKER_03]: phone tree that you know during the night they're all horrified i don't think they're like

[00:18:17] [SPEAKER_03]: pounding down the speedway police's door like we have to clean i think they're concerned about

[00:18:21] [SPEAKER_01]: their employees another thing and you guys you guys probably knew this um but if not i wanted to

[00:18:27] [SPEAKER_01]: share and this is just kind of a sidebar then we'll get back to more 302s robert gill yet was

[00:18:31] [SPEAKER_02]: the manager of the speedway burger chef he was the boss of assistant manager jane fritt i got

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[00:20:21] [SPEAKER_01]: is an updated bulletin it's essentially the same as the one we see on 14 but it was sent out

[00:20:27] [SPEAKER_01]: about 12 hours later almost exactly 12 hours later at 4 24 p.m on november 18th and there's a just more

[00:20:36] [SPEAKER_01]: detail in there about the descriptions of four kids it's essentially the same information and it says

[00:20:44] [SPEAKER_01]: that redacted part in there typically when they would put these out they say you know any information

[00:20:48] [SPEAKER_01]: contact detective whoever you know authority pd speedway and they give the radio call sign and

[00:20:57] [SPEAKER_01]: as a cop nerd i kind of miss the way things used to be done back in the day because it was just so much

[00:21:01] [SPEAKER_01]: more uh so much more formal it was kind of cool let's see i'm on 24 to 27 which was danie's parents

[00:21:11] [SPEAKER_01]: i found this interesting it appears that danie took india home at about 8 30 and then came back

[00:21:20] [SPEAKER_01]: to work so didn't know that that was something new that we learned from the from the 302s as a reminder

[00:21:28] [SPEAKER_03]: india was victim mark flamans his sister victim danie davis also had a sister who worked at the

[00:21:34] [SPEAKER_01]: speedway burger shop too also found out that danie was into computers which is cool so

[00:21:40] [SPEAKER_01]: he and ruth were definitely on the right career path because they would have been making a lot

[00:21:44] [SPEAKER_01]: of money on that stuff so that was really neat these consensual monitoring agreements i we see that a

[00:21:51] [SPEAKER_01]: couple of times in here and what these are is i'm sure you know this but these are basically the

[00:21:58] [SPEAKER_01]: fbi wants to tap your phone um and they do that typically in in the you know we don't see it much

[00:22:04] [SPEAKER_01]: anymore these days but you know back in the day when everybody had pot service or plain old telephone

[00:22:07] [SPEAKER_01]: service landlines in their house um they would they would try to do what's called like a trap

[00:22:13] [SPEAKER_01]: and trace and um with a recording they would be able to if somebody called and demanded a ransom

[00:22:21] [SPEAKER_01]: and this is kind of going back to this old school you know kidnappings back then we had more ransoms

[00:22:27] [SPEAKER_01]: than we do now um maybe not even back then but certainly you know 20 30 40 years before this

[00:22:33] [SPEAKER_01]: it was ransom was like your big thing you know oh yeah it was a whole hustle in the 30s

[00:22:37] [SPEAKER_02]: mm-hmm um so interesting thing from there is also is uh the only trouble at work that redacted

[00:22:46] [SPEAKER_02]: were aware of was an incident involving employees by the name of redacted and redacted who redacted

[00:22:53] [SPEAKER_02]: had caught behind the burger chef business and apparently informed the manager about this

[00:22:59] [SPEAKER_01]: mm-hmm what is that about uh my guess is they were back there smoking weed

[00:23:09] [SPEAKER_01]: i mean that that just would be my guess um the reason that raises our hackles a little bit

[00:23:17] [SPEAKER_03]: is that when you look at so many fast food homicides the the kind of deadly ingredients are

[00:23:24] [SPEAKER_03]: young males oftentimes young males who are like a pair or cousins or brothers or just friends

[00:23:32] [SPEAKER_03]: who one of them or both of them get really pissed off at the people where they work

[00:23:37] [SPEAKER_03]: and they come back and murder everyone and we call them inside job robberies and you know like

[00:23:43] [SPEAKER_03]: the problem with that though is that those almost always are like hyper violent and occur in

[00:23:49] [SPEAKER_03]: the restaurant we're not mathematicians it's not statistically relevant but it's a good pattern

[00:23:54] [SPEAKER_03]: although those do not involve abductions for them right but and i i guess the question then would be

[00:24:00] [SPEAKER_01]: that then begs the question and this is the eternal question with this is why even take them out of

[00:24:06] [SPEAKER_01]: you know do the do the cooler thing i mean i i know when you guys talk to the uh i forget

[00:24:13] [SPEAKER_01]: what what show it was the the dudes that with the guns and everything um but they were like oh yeah

[00:24:19] [SPEAKER_01]: you know you could totally hear a 38 from oh yeah that was key yeah okay yeah you could totally

[00:24:24] [SPEAKER_01]: hear a 38 from inside a reefer or whatever i've worked with walk-in refrigerators

[00:24:32] [SPEAKER_01]: and i can tell you and it max actually it's 1970s vintage walk-in refrigerators we had one

[00:24:39] [SPEAKER_01]: and that's still there at the scout camp i worked i did uh junior leadership training i did food

[00:24:45] [SPEAKER_01]: service for a number of years up there near munsey and if you fired off a gun in there unless

[00:24:51] [SPEAKER_01]: somebody was right outside the back wall or whatever i don't think they hear this is my

[00:24:55] [SPEAKER_01]: opinion i don't or they they might not know if the door was closed i don't think anyone would

[00:25:03] [SPEAKER_01]: notice it to the point where it would get anybody's attention you could probably hear a thud but i mean

[00:25:10] [SPEAKER_01]: those things are made to be insulated they're made to be you know hold the thermal in so it's like

[00:25:17] [SPEAKER_03]: the one speculative theory that's not really a theory but more just kind of rampant speculation

[00:25:22] [SPEAKER_03]: on my part that fits the abduction turned mass murder in my opinion is i go back to like when

[00:25:28] [SPEAKER_03]: me and my sister's like i'm the older sister so i'm super bossy you know would do things or

[00:25:33] [SPEAKER_03]: maybe we'd be sent on an errand or you know have something that we wanted to accomplish and maybe

[00:25:37] [SPEAKER_03]: my three younger sisters might be doing things one way and then i come in i say no no no no no

[00:25:42] [SPEAKER_03]: like we're starting over no do it this way and if there's a situation where there's an abduction

[00:25:48] [SPEAKER_03]: where the people initially doing the abduction are thinking we'll just leave them stranded in

[00:25:54] [SPEAKER_03]: the woods you know and then somebody else shows up and says you've committed kidnapping

[00:26:01] [SPEAKER_03]: on top of this robbery like we're all going down for this you know kill them all and it's more of a

[00:26:07] [SPEAKER_03]: cold-blooded person coming in and maybe the initial people and that also kind of explains some of

[00:26:12] [SPEAKER_03]: the lack of preparedness to shoot everybody seemingly so that's one thing that always comes

[00:26:17] [SPEAKER_03]: to mind for me that um at some point the leadership shifts or the kind of intentionality shifts

[00:26:25] [SPEAKER_03]: and that's what explains the abduction and the initial thought is let's get them away from the

[00:26:31] [SPEAKER_03]: restaurants so they can't you know like bust us out or run yeah right and and now they're in

[00:26:38] [SPEAKER_03]: the woods and then somebody else comes in and says now everybody has to die it just it blows my mind

[00:26:44] [SPEAKER_01]: because and once again it's one of those things where it's a fork in the road okay you can

[00:26:48] [SPEAKER_01]: either be like well they went to that specific spot on purpose you know stony and ken york seemed

[00:26:56] [SPEAKER_01]: to think that it was because dubb was you know these guys were all from johnson county and that was in

[00:27:02] [SPEAKER_01]: johnson county you know it wasn't nowhere near where these guys lived now as we discussed ken

[00:27:08] [SPEAKER_02]: york was an indiana state police detective who was basically the father of the robbery gang

[00:27:14] [SPEAKER_02]: theory stony van who later took over as the lead detective on the burger chef case for years also

[00:27:19] [SPEAKER_03]: strongly favored the robbery gang theory we'll link to our conversation with todd macomas in

[00:27:25] [SPEAKER_03]: our show notes macomas is a former indiana state police detective whose podcast 1041 did an amazing

[00:27:31] [SPEAKER_03]: job breaking down the theory of the robbery gang in depth his show has since been rebranded

[00:27:36] [SPEAKER_03]: as the investigators you should check it out it's just if you know the area it's just

[00:27:41] [SPEAKER_01]: a stupid place to go even then i mean people were like oh yeah i was out in the boonies it was

[00:27:46] [SPEAKER_01]: the middle of nowhere and you know we talked about this last time there were how close the nearby

[00:27:50] [SPEAKER_01]: homes were um it was just a dumb place to go uh unless they had a specific reason

[00:27:57] [SPEAKER_01]: to send a message to somebody that we're going to do this here right and that's the other thing

[00:28:03] [SPEAKER_03]: like i'm like somebody's if somebody's being targeted if one of those kids is being targeted

[00:28:07] [SPEAKER_03]: and you know then you could have it be like it's an abduction that's supposed to be a

[00:28:11] [SPEAKER_03]: shakedown that at some point maybe the other employees are leveraged to threaten somebody

[00:28:16] [SPEAKER_03]: and then at some point leadership also shifts to be like this is no longer a shakedown we need

[00:28:21] [SPEAKER_03]: to get rid of witnesses at this point or we're not getting the information we wanted either

[00:28:27] [SPEAKER_03]: because someone's refusing to say something or because they don't know they're kind of caught

[00:28:31] [SPEAKER_03]: up in something beyond them and that feels you know the kind of lack of intentionality seems

[00:28:37] [SPEAKER_03]: to be something that for me kind of fits this whole thing is so sloppy and poorly done um

[00:28:44] [SPEAKER_03]: as far as crimes go it's it's actually like a kind of a horrific coincidence that the policing

[00:28:52] [SPEAKER_03]: the initial police response was so bad that it you know benefited the killers to this point

[00:28:57] [SPEAKER_01]: and i and i think that that you know it it does it's always kind of looked like that to me it's

[00:29:06] [SPEAKER_01]: like it's like okay and that and that could some of that could because speak to why okay why are we

[00:29:11] [SPEAKER_01]: driving around for maybe an hour and a half i mean we go back to those 302s the people on west 15

[00:29:17] [SPEAKER_01]: street they're talking about you know honestly i based on what the lady that was making coffee

[00:29:23] [SPEAKER_01]: said i put it closer to two o'clock when the car was dumped i think probably maybe one for i mean she

[00:29:30] [SPEAKER_01]: said she stopped watching karsten we know karsten's over at one o'clock she says it takes her about

[00:29:35] [SPEAKER_01]: 45 minutes to make her coffee and drink her coffee whatever so it's darn near probably almost two

[00:29:42] [SPEAKER_01]: when the car gets left there and we know the car went there at one because the guy the

[00:29:46] [SPEAKER_01]: the dude that was coming home that said hey the only car on the street was this plimoth

[00:29:50] [SPEAKER_01]: that belonged to my neighbors that could account for some of the just you know the driving around

[00:29:55] [SPEAKER_01]: what are we going to do which is why i think i i think the higar property was

[00:30:02] [SPEAKER_01]: i think they were out driving on the back roads and they saw that driveway and was just like

[00:30:05] [SPEAKER_01]: hey let's go down here you know they may not have even known there was a house at the end of

[00:30:11] [SPEAKER_01]: that driveway i mean based on at least what i've been able to tell from what it looked like

[00:30:15] [SPEAKER_01]: back then but i want to get into a little bit more of that but i got a couple more 302s here

[00:30:19] [SPEAKER_01]: i want to discuss i found it was interesting that some of the addresses of the of the of the victims

[00:30:28] [SPEAKER_01]: were redacted in these and some of them weren't danie's address was redacted and that house no

[00:30:35] [SPEAKER_01]: longer exists it's square in the middle of basically where either a parking lot or a warehouse

[00:30:40] [SPEAKER_01]: in ameriplex is now no roots i think i want to say roots was the only one that was not

[00:30:46] [SPEAKER_01]: i believe james was marx was and danie's was which is maybe they just messed up

[00:30:51] [SPEAKER_02]: yeah i didn't understand some of the redaction decisions and well and they and they and they

[00:30:56] [SPEAKER_01]: left something and i think they left some something in there that was interesting to me here hank

[00:31:02] [SPEAKER_02]: is going to talk about the cells brothers this refers to marx and johnny's cells they lived in

[00:31:08] [SPEAKER_02]: the big eagle apartments and were neighbors of the flaments over the years some have brought

[00:31:13] [SPEAKER_02]: them up in connection with the murders and the local drug trade this is an angle that christ

[00:31:18] [SPEAKER_02]: davis who formerly hosted the 3c podcast has covered extensively we had him on our show in

[00:31:23] [SPEAKER_02]: the past to discuss other possibilities about what happened that night they actually mentioned the

[00:31:29] [SPEAKER_01]: cells uh robert robert does robert flaments does allude to it we know i know who he's talking

[00:31:37] [SPEAKER_01]: about just based on the stuff that chris put out there about uh marx and johnny johnny his stuff is

[00:31:44] [SPEAKER_01]: mainly just like drunkenness and you know alcohol related he might i it's been so long since i've

[00:31:50] [SPEAKER_01]: looked him up but nothing serious marx has never had any marx cells and never had anything worse

[00:31:59] [SPEAKER_01]: than i think a speeding tick wow which was interesting but robert flaments does say

[00:32:05] [SPEAKER_01]: he didn't want marx hanging around the cells boys and i think at one point india or somebody else

[00:32:11] [SPEAKER_01]: mentioned them and there is at one at one point in there either either one or both of their names

[00:32:17] [SPEAKER_01]: was was potentially missed by the redactor so oops yeah and i mean you know it is what it is

[00:32:27] [SPEAKER_01]: that's already out there anyway so you know whatever um the shoes the shoes the shoes we

[00:32:35] [SPEAKER_01]: talked about the shoes we talked about the shoes last time i was on i was on the show um

[00:32:41] [SPEAKER_03]: what shoes well there were reports for years that one of jane's shoes was found under a bridge

[00:32:47] [SPEAKER_03]: after the abductions this whole thing makes even less sense because we've never heard anyone say

[00:32:52] [SPEAKER_03]: that jane was missing a shoe at the crime scene and that seems like something that would come up

[00:32:57] [SPEAKER_01]: there are a couple of mentions that the shoe was found under the high school road bridge

[00:33:08] [SPEAKER_01]: but then we see that another report that the shoes were found on the 21st

[00:33:12] [SPEAKER_01]: street bridge over eagle creek so there's a there's a possible little discrepancy there

[00:33:21] [SPEAKER_02]: which is interesting next hank would get into the activity of the galaxy that night

[00:33:26] [SPEAKER_02]: the galaxy was located on the other side of croffersville road across the street from the

[00:33:32] [SPEAKER_02]: burger chef it was a disco for the under 21 crowd apparently mark flemmons may have gone there

[00:33:38] [SPEAKER_02]: on the night of his abduction and murder also remember kevin flemmons is mark's older

[00:33:43] [SPEAKER_02]: brother who was later accused of participating in a homicide mark and india went to galaxy when

[00:33:49] [SPEAKER_01]: india went off duty and mark was on break they didn't have money for the cover charge that's

[00:33:55] [SPEAKER_01]: interesting because we've heard from uh i know kirk for sure that uh he didn't think he was allowed

[00:34:02] [SPEAKER_01]: to go over there so that's interesting the four kids came out of the disco all went back

[00:34:07] [SPEAKER_01]: to the burger chef just before 8 30 i believe they talked to some of them this whole thing about

[00:34:15] [SPEAKER_01]: jane and mark were close you know that's been a persistent rumor through the years and india and

[00:34:21] [SPEAKER_01]: robert according to at least according to their 302s inferred there may be more going on there

[00:34:27] [SPEAKER_01]: and that's a that's a recurring theme we've heard on some of the facebook groups and

[00:34:33] [SPEAKER_01]: kirk even mentioned it in his own in his interview that he did with you guys for the show

[00:34:38] [SPEAKER_01]: that he thought maybe you know whoever questioned him back in virginia

[00:34:46] [SPEAKER_01]: they were asking about that so that's kind of a recurring thing

[00:34:50] [SPEAKER_03]: yeah i'd be curious um you know because no one's ever able to really like give any examples of

[00:34:55] [SPEAKER_03]: like well what could have been perceived as flirtatious most of the people we talked to who

[00:35:00] [SPEAKER_03]: knew jane say like there's no way she would have been going for a 16 year old child you know

[00:35:05] [SPEAKER_03]: like she's she's 20 i mean when you're that age that's a pretty significant age gap um you know even

[00:35:12] [SPEAKER_03]: though it's just four years you know when you're talking about a teenager and then a young woman

[00:35:17] [SPEAKER_03]: but i just find that odd and and then paired with the fact they were concerned about you know him

[00:35:22] [SPEAKER_03]: possibly being too close to ginger it seems like there is a lot of sensitivity about like who he's

[00:35:26] [SPEAKER_01]: hanging out with and we can see in a lot of these it's it's funny because as you go through these

[00:35:31] [SPEAKER_01]: as you go through these 302s and these and the other documents came with them you can actually

[00:35:37] [SPEAKER_01]: see kind of the roots of where a lot of these rumors yeah almost kind of started and it's

[00:35:43] [SPEAKER_01]: just interesting because you know you've heard all this stuff for all these years and it's like

[00:35:47] [SPEAKER_01]: oh there's a mention of that in there and it's it just makes you wonder how did that

[00:35:52] [SPEAKER_01]: make its way out into the general public knowledge of of lore or legend on this case

[00:36:02] [SPEAKER_01]: i found it interesting the mark was on probation through juvenile

[00:36:08] [SPEAKER_01]: i also found it interesting that ruth actually apparently shop lifted from uh

[00:36:14] [SPEAKER_01]: was it the xer or the turnstile um i didn't know yeah that was that surprised the that surprise

[00:36:21] [SPEAKER_01]: when she was like 14 i'm sure she probably got a weapon for that and there wasn't a problem

[00:36:26] [SPEAKER_01]: after that also on page we get to page 70 kevin flements 302 i believe is kevin this is the one i

[00:36:34] [SPEAKER_01]: mentioned earlier where he called in and this call was received after the bodies were discovered on

[00:36:39] [SPEAKER_01]: the higur property but they didn't relate this information to whom assuming is kevin um and it

[00:36:45] [SPEAKER_01]: makes kind of makes sense that it's kevin because it's there's some inferences in there and part

[00:36:52] [SPEAKER_01]: of it's redacted to uh drug use potentially and we know that he was kind of into that stuff

[00:36:59] [SPEAKER_01]: and that's kind of why he was a little bit distant from the family but i found it interesting that

[00:37:03] [SPEAKER_01]: kevin also references the sales boards and while we're on the topic of phone calls i thought

[00:37:10] [SPEAKER_01]: the phone called at the ipd 911 exchange for the maryan county 911 exchange received reference

[00:37:17] [SPEAKER_01]: that call that came through the the pay phone at fort ben if that ever went any any further

[00:37:22] [SPEAKER_01]: we don't know about it but that was just a that was an early early lead at the fbi handle

[00:37:28] [SPEAKER_01]: some of this you guys might know but it brought up a question for me uh did anybody go try to

[00:37:35] [SPEAKER_02]: pick a bruce up after work that night i don't believe so okay so we asked about that at some

[00:37:43] [SPEAKER_01]: point i think we did i don't remember her answer that's that's i just wondered because because

[00:37:48] [SPEAKER_01]: we see in in here that ruth did have a license and someday she would drive herself

[00:37:53] [SPEAKER_01]: and other days like we know for instance that night according to the john and rachel's 302

[00:38:01] [SPEAKER_01]: john being her dad and rachel being her mom for those that aren't on a first name basis like us

[00:38:06] [SPEAKER_01]: nerds are um rachel took ruth to work that evening i think chrissas said that when her mother took

[00:38:17] [SPEAKER_02]: ruth to work the custom was that ruth would call for a right home which college was done okay

[00:38:23] [SPEAKER_01]: which makes sense because i mean there's five minutes or less from where their house was so

[00:38:30] [SPEAKER_01]: one of the things i wanted to kind of grab on to before we get done so the late employee

[00:38:38] [SPEAKER_02]: we haven't decided if we're going to use his name or not but uh so let's just call him the

[00:38:44] [SPEAKER_03]: late employee let's talk about that late employee for a minute kevin and i know the identity of this

[00:38:49] [SPEAKER_03]: person although we're not naming him for now he was 16 back in 1978 he worked at the burger

[00:38:56] [SPEAKER_03]: chef and apparently ran into some issues there he was actually slated to be fired on the night of

[00:39:02] [SPEAKER_03]: the abductions he was scheduled to work but did not show up he claimed to have car trouble

[00:39:08] [SPEAKER_03]: danie davis stayed late to cover this person's shift oddly enough employee brian kring who

[00:39:14] [SPEAKER_03]: sounded the alarm about the disappearances has said that this late employee showed up

[00:39:18] [SPEAKER_03]: after him at the restaurant only to quickly get out of there before police arrived so

[00:39:24] [SPEAKER_01]: he observes danie's car and brian's car in the lot what i got from his 302

[00:39:32] [SPEAKER_01]: is it looks like at least the way it's written he actually went inside the restaurant did you

[00:39:40] [SPEAKER_01]: read it that way yes i guess yeah okay so that was interesting to me because before that well the

[00:39:48] [SPEAKER_01]: only reference i think we had at one point brian brian said that he thought he walked in

[00:39:56] [SPEAKER_01]: in one of his interviews and i don't remember if it was with you guys or if it was with

[00:40:00] [SPEAKER_01]: i think it was with you guys but it might have been with three c but i that's interesting there

[00:40:05] [SPEAKER_01]: and other and this is you know god only knows how accurate or inaccurate this stuff is

[00:40:11] [SPEAKER_01]: but if you go back and listen to when chris had johnny sells on he makes a

[00:40:18] [SPEAKER_01]: some sort of inference to johnny's brother mark was supposed to meet mark flemmons up there

[00:40:25] [SPEAKER_01]: right he didn't say what day and i honestly think he was probably half sloshed when he talked to him

[00:40:32] [SPEAKER_01]: so who knows but i always i always found that a little interesting that's really it

[00:40:41] [SPEAKER_01]: as far as the 302s go the one last thing i wanted to cover tonight and um you know maybe we can

[00:40:48] [SPEAKER_01]: pick up on this later you know you guys can stew on it in the later portions of the documents

[00:40:55] [SPEAKER_01]: when we get into the late 90s 898 99 yeah i might know what you're going to talk about okay

[00:41:04] [SPEAKER_01]: and i'm sure you do and if you know something about it that would be interesting to me

[00:41:10] [SPEAKER_01]: we see an unnamed ipd homicide detective and an unnamed maryan county deputy prosecutor

[00:41:17] [SPEAKER_01]: both of which i'm sure are retired by now that have gotten this lead that they want to pursue

[00:41:24] [SPEAKER_01]: outside the purview of the state police and the speedway pd and they are very specific as to

[00:41:35] [SPEAKER_01]: they want to they want the fbi's help in conducting these polygraphs and interviews and

[00:41:40] [SPEAKER_01]: they want to keep anything that they learn at the fbi offices um because they feel it would

[00:41:48] [SPEAKER_01]: compromise the case if isp or speedway was had any knowledge of it and this was like 98 99

[00:41:56] [SPEAKER_01]: time frame and then that detective seemingly just kind of it looks like they probably did

[00:42:02] [SPEAKER_01]: some interviews and some polygraphs and then that detective wanted to the behavioral uh

[00:42:09] [SPEAKER_01]: it was like the behavioral that the fbi like the behavioral analysis unit or whatever they

[00:42:13] [SPEAKER_01]: wanted to strategize about how you know what kind of questions do we need to ask on this uh

[00:42:20] [SPEAKER_01]: on these interviews or whatever and then seemingly they tried to reach out to him a

[00:42:24] [SPEAKER_01]: couple times and it just kind of things just kind of stopped after that uh he was on other cases

[00:42:30] [SPEAKER_01]: and obviously it never seems like it seems like it never went anywhere and there's no

[00:42:37] [SPEAKER_01]: real good answer as to why at least in these files um could it have been you know it wasn't

[00:42:45] [SPEAKER_01]: john defa baw and in piccione and and dub and uh cathcart whoever uh with the robbery gang and we

[00:42:54] [SPEAKER_01]: all know that the detective that had the case at that time was laser focused on those guys

[00:43:00] [SPEAKER_01]: or was it just a but it was it just another lead that went nowhere right so i found that

[00:43:06] [SPEAKER_01]: that especially because it's so comparatively speaking is so recent to me that that was um

[00:43:15] [SPEAKER_01]: probably the one of the bigger the bigger things in here that i that i noticed that kind of caught

[00:43:19] [SPEAKER_03]: my attention right like why shut out escape police like that's yeah um and over an agency

[00:43:27] [SPEAKER_01]: that seemingly had and i've always found it interesting too and we may have touched on this

[00:43:34] [SPEAKER_01]: in the past but they're like well you know maryan county's you know prude met with steve goldsmith

[00:43:39] [SPEAKER_01]: and he's given immunity and and um i think he did get he did get a written immunity deal from uh

[00:43:45] [SPEAKER_01]: gants if i remember right he mentioned that i think in his in his uh statement that he gave to

[00:43:51] [SPEAKER_02]: kramer in in lindsay in 81 but steven goldsmith was a prosecutor of maryan county from 1979

[00:43:59] [SPEAKER_02]: to 1991 maryan county includes both indianapolis and speedway goldsmith later served as the mayor

[00:44:06] [SPEAKER_02]: of indianapolis and the deputy mayor of new york city charles gants was previously the prosecutor

[00:44:12] [SPEAKER_01]: for johnson county you know all this time they're acting like oh maryan county prosecutor maryan

[00:44:18] [SPEAKER_01]: county prosecutor in my experience maryan county won't charge something that happens outside of

[00:44:24] [SPEAKER_01]: maryan county um then you has to be established and the murders occurred in and there may be a

[00:44:31] [SPEAKER_01]: legal hiccup that i don't know about but i i know i've had i've worked a couple of things that have

[00:44:37] [SPEAKER_01]: started here and then gone either into johnson county or one of them actually crossed state

[00:44:41] [SPEAKER_01]: lines and um even though it was even though the victim was here they wouldn't they're like

[00:44:49] [SPEAKER_01]: this needs to be referred to the prosecutor's office with jurisdiction could you get them on

[00:44:54] [SPEAKER_01]: like felony murder kidnapping um in maryan i would guess probably felony murder but i mean i don't

[00:45:05] [SPEAKER_01]: think hevin would know more about this than i do because i'm not a homicide detective i don't

[00:45:09] [SPEAKER_01]: yeah we don't i don't i don't work i don't work i don't work sex crimes i don't work

[00:45:16] [SPEAKER_01]: murders we don't have a lot of murders here fortunately thank god good um

[00:45:20] [SPEAKER_01]: i've worked a couple death investigations that were non-criminal but you know i don't know it's

[00:45:25] [SPEAKER_01]: just i've always found it interesting that that that maryan county has always been kind of referred

[00:45:29] [SPEAKER_01]: to as like oh they're you know they would be the ones to charge and if these people have anything

[00:45:33] [SPEAKER_01]: we're gonna put it before the grand jury and it's like the murders actually occurred four miles south

[00:45:39] [SPEAKER_01]: of the johnson maryan county line so i i don't know that that's been one thing to me that's

[00:45:44] [SPEAKER_01]: always been kind of frustrating um all this reference to maryan county is like no johnson county

[00:45:50] [SPEAKER_03]: would be the ones doing it i think well and we know they worked it they worked it hard i mean

[00:45:56] [SPEAKER_03]: they were on the they were on the crab tree um i think side of things they were they were

[00:46:01] [SPEAKER_03]: believing that this was a crab tree uh situation gone wrong and we're very fortunate to get those

[00:46:07] [SPEAKER_03]: files but you know it didn't seem like they came very close to prosecuting burger chef um you

[00:46:15] [SPEAKER_03]: know the crab tree obviously thing got rolled up eventually well and i and i i think it's more

[00:46:21] [SPEAKER_01]: and it may be because there was a change in uh sheriffs i the tom pritchard who was the

[00:46:27] [SPEAKER_01]: the the sheriff at the time of burger chef i don't believe he was in office anymore

[00:46:34] [SPEAKER_01]: when uh the the whole crab tree thing happened so and and pritchard i've learned about him that

[00:46:42] [SPEAKER_01]: his he had some problems when he was sheriff because this was before the current jail and

[00:46:47] [SPEAKER_01]: sheriff's office was open they were still in an old older building in downtown franklin which is gone now

[00:46:53] [SPEAKER_01]: but they had like a bunch of escapes uh because the building was like so it was like it was the

[00:46:59] [SPEAKER_01]: building was like old and shot and they had these escapes and there was one guy that escaped from

[00:47:05] [SPEAKER_01]: there that for all intents and purposes looked like the freaking bearded man but you know that's

[00:47:09] [SPEAKER_01]: a lot of people back then so he had he had some issues but i don't i just kind of wish that they

[00:47:15] [SPEAKER_01]: would have maybe you know pushed it a little bit harder yeah definitely let's just say if the

[00:47:24] [SPEAKER_01]: people that that did this you know ended up at the higar property if they had any kind of a

[00:47:30] [SPEAKER_01]: connection to the area and you know i don't want to go on the center grow face or the

[00:47:34] [SPEAKER_01]: center grow memories facebook group and ask because it's like you know people i think want to kind of

[00:47:39] [SPEAKER_01]: put that in the past and they're not nervous about the stuff you know they're all about the happy memories

[00:47:43] [SPEAKER_01]: and but i would i would love to find a way to to really kind of talk with some of the

[00:47:52] [SPEAKER_01]: try to find a way to get some information out some of like the old timers in the area of people

[00:47:56] [SPEAKER_01]: there would be considered old timers that were may have known you know who the ne'er do wells

[00:48:01] [SPEAKER_01]: in the the the troublemakers and stuff like that were at that time

[00:48:07] [SPEAKER_03]: not i would encourage anyone who knows anything like that to email murder sheet at gmail.com

[00:48:13] [SPEAKER_03]: because we'd love to hear from you even if it's just background and color we're not going to

[00:48:16] [SPEAKER_03]: just be taking you and saying oh these guys were bad so therefore they did burger chef we're

[00:48:20] [SPEAKER_03]: going to be you know uh just understanding what the criminal ecosystem was in johnson county

[00:48:26] [SPEAKER_01]: at the time yeah and it's and like i like i mentioned um i did some research on it and there

[00:48:32] [SPEAKER_01]: there were i think between 16 or 18 deputies on the sheriff's department in 1978 in that time period

[00:48:43] [SPEAKER_01]: and there were 12 indiana state troopers assigned to johnson county which is just to me is is

[00:48:51] [SPEAKER_01]: a huge amount of of state police but back then they did a lot more local policing and picking up

[00:49:02] [SPEAKER_01]: you know runs uh local local calls than than what they what they do now certainly so it was just

[00:49:10] [SPEAKER_01]: that it was a different um different time you know we want to sincerely thank hank for talking to us

[00:49:18] [SPEAKER_02]: we really appreciate him thanks so much for listening to the murder sheet if you have a tip

[00:49:27] [SPEAKER_02]: concerning one of the cases we cover please email us at murder sheet at gmail.com if you

[00:49:35] [SPEAKER_02]: have actionable information about an unsolved crime please report it to the appropriate authorities

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[00:50:07] [SPEAKER_02]: to kevin tyler greenlee who composed the music for the murder sheet and who you can find on the web

[00:50:13] [SPEAKER_03]: at kevin tg.com if you're looking to talk with other listeners about a case we've covered

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